I know; in fact, that was the reason I had to make an all new team for suspect--my last team kept getting killed because--get this--it had too many steel types and kept getting owned by Magnezone, but my new team only has two and still has no problems dealing with Latias. I've also found using non-choiced Jirachi effective; I may not outspeed Latias, but I can still kill things like Tyranitar, Scizor, Mamoswine (with SR and a little flinchhax luck, mostly) all while being able to run from Scarfzone with U-turn to something that can kill it, usually my Rhyperior or Latias. Being unable to OHKO Lucario with Fire Punch is a pain, though. And even with being unable to outspeed Latias, I can still manage to kill it no problem despite my team not packing Tyranitar, Scizor, or Metagross.
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Lati@s Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
I know; in fact, that was the reason I had to make an all new team for suspect--my last team kept getting killed because--get this--it had too many steel types and kept getting owned by Magnezone, but my new team only has two and still has no problems dealing with Latias. I've also found using non-choiced Jirachi effective; I may not outspeed Latias, but I can still kill things like Tyranitar, Scizor, Mamoswine (with SR and a little flinchhax luck, mostly) all while being able to run from Scarfzone with U-turn to something that can kill it, usually my Rhyperior or Latias. Being unable to OHKO Lucario with Fire Punch is a pain, though. And even with being unable to outspeed Latias, I can still manage to kill it no problem despite my team not packing Tyranitar, Scizor, or Metagross.
Jirachi isn't faster than Lucario? Give it more speed...
He's talking about non-CB Jirachi, which doesn't OHKO Lucario without a defense drop. From max Attack Expert Belt Jolly Jirachi (what I use, and what he posted in his RMT), Fire Punch does 220 - 261 (78% - 92%) to 4 HP Lucario, meaning that even with Life Orb damage it won't KO most of the time.
Similarly, I have found that Dugtrio usage has increased in the suspect ladder. It's probably thanks to Magnezone and Tyranitar. With these 3, as well as CB Scizor gaining some popularity, the metagame is becoming more and more about trapping and killing pokemon instead of just countering them.
Trapping and killing isn't countering?
I think such a metagame is way more interesting. Simply switching, using X move, switching again etc. is boring. A metagame with high risks makes sure people get more creative.
Just countering. Trapping and killing is more than countering; it is destroying. Cresselia 100% counters Electivire, but Electivire can still freely swap out, whilst Magnezone completely destroys Skarmory without a Shed Shell. Similarly, Weavile destroys Latias if it is in KO range of Pursuit.
Well to truly see if Latias is broken or not, is to wait until everyone stops using 2-3 Latias counters for each team. If people standard teams were used on the Suspect Ladder, it would be much more accurate, however everyone just wants to be on top of the ladder, so statistics and views are extremely biased.
Just what I've seen >.>
Just what I've seen >.>
That 2-3 counter thing is why I don't like to use Latias at the moment.
Teams are built around Latias, countering Latias, and beating Latias' counters (hence the abundance of ground moves).
I'm really not liking the suspect metagame right now >__<
I've actually noticed it shaping up a bit lately. I haven't seen nearly as much Magnezone and Dugtrio as I did a few days ago. I am seeing more Blissey though...
The teams look a little more standardish as of late, which is definately a good sign :-).
The teams look a little more standardish as of late, which is definately a good sign :-).
don't mean to bump such a freakishly old thread (don't lock it please)... but Latias is OU now! And Latios testing is up... any thoughts?
I remember talking with someone (I think you actually RL) about how much fun DS+Memento Latios is going to be.
Sadly it probably won't work well as a lead thanks to lack of taunt plus the fact is still loses to faster taunt leads/trickscarf leads.
Sadly it probably won't work well as a lead thanks to lack of taunt plus the fact is still loses to faster taunt leads/trickscarf leads.
lol, then don't lead with it...
Seriously... I think it may be broken just for that reason alone. Even though Uxie can do it... Latios is faster and causes switches to walls anyway. I'm going to edit the OP soon.
Seriously... I think it may be broken just for that reason alone. Even though Uxie can do it... Latios is faster and causes switches to walls anyway. I'm going to edit the OP soon.
Kingdra is sad right now ):
I'm not really sure what to think about Latios.
I mean sure it has base 110 speed coupled with base 130 sp.atk, but honestly, I don't see it as being any more deadly than Heatran.
Dragon is a great STAB, but the abundance of steels means that something is going to take the hit. And unlike Salamence, it lacks Fire Blast to kill Skarm and Bronzong, but an EQ off of base 90 Atk isn't doing much to other steels either. And as good as dragon is, Blissey is still taking the hits well because they are special based.
591 Atk vs 306 Def & 688 HP (140 Base Power): 291 - 343 (42.30% - 49.85%)
That's Modest Specs Draco Meteor on 688 HP / 306 Sp.D Blissey. Impressive, but not a 2HKO.
Physically speaking, even Kindgra pulls off a DD set better. Higher attack, no weaknesses to priority, great defensive (and offensive) typing, and a boost in rain make it superior, IMO.
As far as defenses go, Latios will be no match for Tyranitar and Scizor, as well as several other sweepers. It has no room for Recover, has 20 points lower defense than Latias, 40 points lower Sp.Def, and still has that nasty Pursuit weakness. It trades Heatran's defenses for Speed.
We'll see what happens. I'm thinking OU.
I mean sure it has base 110 speed coupled with base 130 sp.atk, but honestly, I don't see it as being any more deadly than Heatran.
Dragon is a great STAB, but the abundance of steels means that something is going to take the hit. And unlike Salamence, it lacks Fire Blast to kill Skarm and Bronzong, but an EQ off of base 90 Atk isn't doing much to other steels either. And as good as dragon is, Blissey is still taking the hits well because they are special based.
591 Atk vs 306 Def & 688 HP (140 Base Power): 291 - 343 (42.30% - 49.85%)
That's Modest Specs Draco Meteor on 688 HP / 306 Sp.D Blissey. Impressive, but not a 2HKO.
Physically speaking, even Kindgra pulls off a DD set better. Higher attack, no weaknesses to priority, great defensive (and offensive) typing, and a boost in rain make it superior, IMO.
As far as defenses go, Latios will be no match for Tyranitar and Scizor, as well as several other sweepers. It has no room for Recover, has 20 points lower defense than Latias, 40 points lower Sp.Def, and still has that nasty Pursuit weakness. It trades Heatran's defenses for Speed.
We'll see what happens. I'm thinking OU.
I'm thinking Mixed Latios with DD / Outrage / Earthquake / Draco Meteor could be pretty crushing, and it's one of the few things that it does better than Kingdra. Tyranitar doesn't really enjoy boosted Earthquakes, and most physical walls won't like a Base 130 STAB Draco Meteor. That said, it's not better at it than Salamence, so while good, it's gimmicky at best.
Don't be so hasty in labeling it OU... I'm about to post some sets in the OP that may make you think twice about a few things.
Yes, rejoice, Latias is OU!
I'll probably end up running Scarf Salamence to help deal with Latios. It's caught me off several times and I've been wanting to run it anyways. To be completely honest I'm scared of what Latios is capable of, so much raw power and above average speed, but then again that's all theorymon; reality is a whole 'nother story.
I tried Memento for a few matches (not Latios) and I couldn't get it to work very well. Then again I did kind of rush it out and got walled to hell by Skarmory. XP So leading is out of the question, and even shortly after isn't a good move. Late game when the walls are broken down, I could see that causing massive problems. Latios might make the support uber characteristic with that. Will definately be something to watch out for.
Looking back on Latios, he does match or surpass Kingdra with mixed potential :( I used Kingdra in the Latias test, maybe I'll just replace him and see how it goes.
I do hope and encourage more people to play the suspect ladder.
I'll probably end up running Scarf Salamence to help deal with Latios. It's caught me off several times and I've been wanting to run it anyways. To be completely honest I'm scared of what Latios is capable of, so much raw power and above average speed, but then again that's all theorymon; reality is a whole 'nother story.
I tried Memento for a few matches (not Latios) and I couldn't get it to work very well. Then again I did kind of rush it out and got walled to hell by Skarmory. XP So leading is out of the question, and even shortly after isn't a good move. Late game when the walls are broken down, I could see that causing massive problems. Latios might make the support uber characteristic with that. Will definately be something to watch out for.
Looking back on Latios, he does match or surpass Kingdra with mixed potential :( I used Kingdra in the Latias test, maybe I'll just replace him and see how it goes.
I do hope and encourage more people to play the suspect ladder.
Latios isn't bulky enough to be able to psycho shift burns, because it'd have to be able take a blow or waste a slot for protect. With that extra slot gone, Latios would have to give up ether a type coverage move or recovery. 80/80/110 defense are decently bulky, but not enough to be able to survive a blow then shift the burn on to a physical attacker, such scizor or tyranitar.
I actually think Kingdra is better due to STAB Waterfall, which means that it isn't walled by Bronzong and Skarmory as easily.
I think you forgot to include STAB, or else it would be 210 base power, in which case, with SR, a 2hko may be possible
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