Kyogre (WIP)

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kamikaze

kamikaze

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[OVERVIEW]

Generalize what the Pokemon does in the metagame and as a whole and why you should or shouldn't consider using it on your teams.

[SET]
name: Fast Special Attacker
move 1: Water Spout / Origin Pulse
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Scald / Thunder / Origin Pulse
move 4: Protect
item: Blue Orb
ability: Drizzle
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========​
  • Strong Spread Water moves are a staple on Kyogre, with its two main options being Water Spout and Origin Pulse. Water Spout is 150 Base Power when Kyogre is at Max HP but the power decreases as Kyogre's HP decreases, while Origin Pulse has a consistent 110 Base Power but has 85 percent accuracy.
  • Ice Beam allows Kyogre the option to still chunk threats even while an opposing Primal Groudon's Desolate Land is negating its water attacks, as well as also threatening KO's on Dragons such as Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence
  • Scald is an option that Kyogre can use if it wants a single target STAB water move which has a consistent 80 Base Power, unlike Water Spout, as well as 100% accuracy, unlike Origin Pulse.
  • Thunder is a interesting coverage option that allows Kyogre to have a way to deal heavy damage to opposing Primal Kyogre. If you are running Thunder it is generally suggested to have Origin Pulse on the set as well, instead of Water Spout, because Kyogre very much appreciates both a consistent damaging STAB and spread move.
  • Protect allows Kyogre to be invulnerable for the turn so it may scout for moves, block Fake Out, and stall out opposing field conditions.
Set Details
========​
  • Blue Orb is the item on Kyogre because Primal Groudon is a huge threat in the metagame and the only main way for Kyogre to deal with Primal Groudon's Desolate Land is for it to put up Primordial Sea via Primal Reversion.
  • The EV spread with a Timid nature maximizes Kyogres speed to at worst speed tie with other Base 90's, such as Primal Groudon and other Kyogre, as well as maximizing its offensive power.
  • Max speed is particularly essential for Water Spout sets to get outspeed and get off a full power Water Spout while Kyogre is still healthy.
  • An alternate spread of 116 HP, 140 Def, 252 SpA with a Modest nature can be run which maximizes its offensive power while also letting it be able to take a Life Orb Dragon Ascent from a Jolly Mega Rayquaza with max attack.
Usage Tips
========
Describe how to use the Pokemon in question.

Team Options
========​
  • Checks to Primal Groudon such as Rayquaza, Mega Salamence, Landorus-T, Hooh
  • Rayquaza provides Air Lock which can negate Desolate Land for Kyogre to use its water moves and is also able to mega evolve to activate Delta Stream to make Desolate Land dissapear.
  • Hooh can help check Primal Groudon if it does not have Rock Slide and help spread Sacred Fire burns on Physical attackers so that Kyogre can take hits better.
  • Steel types like Ferrothorn and Mawile benefit from Primordial Sea negating fire moves and take out Xerneas which Kyogre may struggle, with especially after Xerneas boosts its special defense with geomancy.
  • Mega Gengar is great for its ability to trap the above two and neutralize them for Kyogre. It also neuters Kangaskhan with Will-o-Wisp to mitigate physical damage on Kyogre.
  • Landorus-T is great for offering Intimidate to also lower physical damage towards Kyogre as well as it's ability to threaten groudon
  • Prankster support pokemon like Thundurus, Liepard, and Whimsicott all offer different options to the table (will elaborate more later)
[SET]
name: Trick Room Attacker
move 1: Water Spout / Origin Pulse
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Scald / Thunder / Origin Pulse
move 4: Protect
item: Blue Orb
ability: Drizzle
nature: Quiet
evs: 140 HP, 116 Def, 252 SpA (lives Life Orb Naive max Atk Mega Ray Dragons Ascent)

[SET COMMENTS]​
Moves
========
  • Kyogre is known to always run a strong STAB spread water move with its two main options being Water Spout and Origin Pulse. Water Spout is 150 Base Power when Kyogre is at Max HP but the power decreases as Kyogre's HP decreases, while Origin Pulse has a consistent 110 Base Power but has 85 percent accuracy.
  • Ice Beam allows Kyogre the option to still chunk threats even while an opposing Primal Groudon's Desolate Land is negating its water attacks, as well as also threatening KO's on Dragons such as Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence
  • Scald is an option that Kyogre can use if it wants a single target STAB water move which has a consistent 80 Base Power, unlike Water Spout, as well as 100% accuracy, unlike Origin Pulse.
  • Thunder is a interesting coverage option that allows Kyogre to have a way to deal heavy damage to opposing Primal Kyogre. If you are running Thunder it is generally suggested to have Origin Pulse on the set as well, instead of Water Spout, because Kyogre very much appreciates both a consistent damaging STAB and spread move.
  • Protect allows Kyogre to be invulnerable for the turn so it may scout for moves, block Fake Out, and stall out opposing field conditions.

Set Details
========
  • Blue Orb is the item on Kyogre because Primal Groudon is a huge threat in the metagame and the only main way for Kyogre to deal with Primal Groudon's Desolate Land is for it to put up Primordial Sea via Primal Reversion.
  • The Quiet nature minimizes Kyogre's speed to help it move before others in Trick Room, as well as helping it put up its Primordial Sea after faster Primal Groudon so they can freely use Water moves.
  • The EV spread of 116 HP, 140 Def, 252 SpA maximizes Kyogre's offensive power while also letting it be able to take a Life Orb Dragon Ascent from a Jolly Mega Rayquaza with max attack.

Usage Tips
========
Describe how to use the Pokemon in question.

Team Options
========
  • TR setters like Palkia, Dialga, Cresselia
  • Steel types like Ferrothorn and Mawile benefit from Primordial Sea negating fire moves and take out Xerneas which Kyogre may struggle, with especially after Xerneas boosts its special defense with geomancy.


[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============​
  • Though Kyogre is usually being supported by its teammates, Thunder Wave and Icy Wind are options for Kyogre to provide speed control for both itself and its teammates. Thunder Wave in particular is very good for neutering fast and powerful threats like Xerneas, Mega Salamence, and Rayquaza even if they boost their speed or switch out.
  • Roar can force out Geomancy boosted Xerneas to switch out which prevents potential Xerneas sweeps. Roar also has higher priority than Trick Room so it can be used to switch out Trick Room setters before they can set it up with the plus side of not stopped by Mental Herb or Lum Berry which are common items on Trick Room setters. Keep in mind that Roar only switches out a Pokemon if there are more than 2 pokemon remaining, so if the target is one of the opponent's last two then it will be ineffective.
  • Choice Scarf can be used, but requires absurd amount of support since it requires using regular Kyogre with Drizzle. Blue Orb is generally the preferred item for this reason because of Primal Groudon's Desolate Land always out-prioritizes Kyogre's Drizzle making all its water moves useless while this is not the case for Primal Kyogre's Primordial Sea.
Checks and Counters
===================​
  • **Primal Groudon**: Primal Groudon's can generally freely switch into Kyogre and its Desolate Land ability removes Kyogre's ability to fire off strong Water attacks. This forces Kyogre to rely more on Ice Beam for its damage output.
  • **Xerneas**: Xerneas outspeeds Kyogre and sets up a Geomancy to boost its Special Defense before Kyogre can get off an attack. While Geomancy boosted Xerneas does massive damage it is worth noting that Kyogre will survive a +2 Moonblast from full.
  • **Strong Physical Attackers**: Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, and Rayquaza all threaten Kyogre due to their massive Physical Attack which hits Kyogre's weakness since its Defense is much less than its Special Defense.
  • **Grass Types**: Amoonguss and Ferrothorn both resist Kyogre's STAB Water moves. Amoonguss threatens Kyogre with Grass Knot and Spore, while Ferrothorn threatens with Power Whip and potentially stalling out Kyogre with Leech Seed.
 
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I know this is WIP, but just one thing popped out to me.

I personally think its best to slash Thunder with Water Spout rather than the secondary Water attack slot, and maaaybe a mention of Thunder over Ice Beam (I haven't really seen that often however. Lots of Kyogre are run with speed control, and they don't want to be completely useless against Groudon and Rayquaza lol). My reasoning for this is because I feel that having Water Spout as your ONLY Water attack is a fairly risky and dangerous idea. I mean this is probably sorta why Thunder Kyogre usage was dropping in the first place, to have two water attacks. Still though, for those who want to slam opposing Kyogres, I think giving up Water Spout is the far less risky choice, as much of a sacrifices as it is.
 
Theorymon said:
I know this is WIP, but just one thing popped out to me.

I personally think its best to slash Thunder with Water Spout rather than the secondary Water attack slot, and maaaybe a mention of Thunder over Ice Beam (I haven't really seen that often however. Lots of Kyogre are run with speed control, and they don't want to be completely useless against Groudon and Rayquaza lol). My reasoning for this is because I feel that having Water Spout as your ONLY Water attack is a fairly risky and dangerous idea. I mean this is probably sorta why Thunder Kyogre usage was dropping in the first place, to have two water attacks. Still though, for those who want to slam opposing Kyogres, I think giving up Water Spout is the far less risky choice, as much of a sacrifices as it is.
Click to expand...
At least from what I have seen, kyogre move framework tends to be....

Spread water move
Ice Beam
Filler (either coverage option like Thunder or a high power water move to use when you dont have high HP for Water Spout)
Protect

Though I do agree that running water spout as your only water move is somewhat risky. Generally I see Thunder Kyogre run Origin Pulse in the first slot over Water Spout for this reason if Kyogre is running Thunder, and maybe I should somehow make it clear on the analysis. I dont think I have ever seen anyone drop Ice beam as it gives Kyogre a fighting chance vs Dragons and Groudon in Desolate Land.
 
kamikaze17 said:
At least from what I have seen, kyogre move framework tends to be....

Spread water move
Ice Beam
Filler (either coverage option like Thunder or a high power water move to use when you dont have high HP for Water Spout)
Protect

Though I do agree that running water spout as your only water move is somewhat risky. Generally I see Thunder Kyogre run Origin Pulse in the first slot over Water Spout for this reason if Kyogre is running Thunder, and maybe I should somehow make it clear on the analysis. I dont think I have ever seen anyone drop Ice beam as it gives Kyogre a fighting chance vs Dragons and Groudon in Desolate Land.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's generally what I've seen and used too. I just figured that maybe putting Thunder in the first slot may make it clearer. Another possibility is moving Water Spout to slot 4, and making the first slot the other Water move, but the one issue I have with that is that if given the chance, you probably want to Water Spout when Kyogre is free to do so anyways, almost making it the "best water move" to use early game.

Also from personal experience: yeah don't drop Ice Beam if you can help it lol. I remember that costing me matches in generation showdown practice matches :P
 
Theorymon said:
Yeah that's generally what I've seen and used too. I just figured that maybe putting Thunder in the first slot may make it clearer. Another possibility is moving Water Spout to slot 4, and making the first slot the other Water move, but the one issue I have with that is that if given the chance, you probably want to Water Spout when Kyogre is free to do so anyways, almost making it the "best water move" to use early game.

Also from personal experience: yeah don't drop Ice Beam if you can help it lol. I remember that costing me matches in generation showdown practice matches :P
Click to expand...
yea I think we should wait for more suggestions on this one regarding the move order and placement. The readability of the moveset could probably use work, but I will put your suggestion now.

I will probably try to include a special note about Thunder generally accompanied by Origin Pulse as opposed to running it on the same set as Water Spout, when I finish the analysis but the more readable we make the main set look for people to interpret then the better it is.
 
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I personally feel the moves were fine how they were originally, with only the order of the slashes being up for debate. Based on the current slashes a set of Scald / Ice Beam / Thunder / Protect is possible with no spread Water-type attack, which I certainly wouldn't recommend.
 
Still not completely finished but it's very much out of the old barebones WIP, so feel free to leave comments and suggestions.
 
For the Bulky TR set, wouldn't it be better to run 140HP/116Def? You're still avoiding the OHKO from Dragon Ascent but you have slightly better mixed bulk. Unless there's something else that specific spread does.
 
A tiny little nitpick I wanna mention before I totally forget: For the Trick Room attacker set, you might want to warn about Thunder's paralysis chance under Trick Room. I've actually won a game because I got paralyzed under Trick Room and started outspeeding stuff x_x
 
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