MikeDawg said:
Cress is great if you can keep sun up, especially given how difficult it is for ninetales to switch into common rain offense members like keldeo
Yeah, Keldeo isn't hard pressed at all with Sun Stall teams running both Venusaur and Cresselia. It's not like Trapping Heatran can't kill off Politoed either. You speak as if sun doesn't prepare for rain at all, but you'll find that sun stall in the hands of a good player could care less about Keldeo.
MikeDawg said:
What scarf pokemon isn't setup bait? (Setup ferro/kingdra/etc on scarf palkia) It's there to revenge kill a dangerous threat and then get out (but keldeo gets the added bonus of later game rain scarf sweeps!)
My point was that offense could utilize these moments to come up with a revenge sweep. Honestly, Keldeo cannot switch into SR +1 Spikes twice (especially after sand damage) and live a +2 Espeed from Luke, right? I was only pointing out that although Scarf Keldeo might be revenging something like Scarf Mence, you can still bring in another Pokemon can maintain the offensive momentum.
Just take Limitless' Aero / Breloom / Dragonite / Lucario / Salamence / Terrakion.
Technically that's supposed to be Scarf Keldeo weak since it's faster and can revenge kill everything on that team, with Dragonite as the only Pokemon that can tank its dual STABs. But all of you haters will say Dragonite gets boned by rocks so fine so be it. However, this team has peaked very high on the PO ladder consistently and isn't bothered by Keldeo at all. Mence forces it to come in and RK and Limitless can go into Rak or Lucario and pretty much set up a Rock Polish / Swords Dance and continue to break the opposing team.
I'm not denying that Scarf Keldeo is hard for Offense to beat, it's just not as bad as it's implied to be.
MikeDawg said:
If jelli is spdef, ttar can kill it easily
OK let me address something for Jellicent.
Let's say it can burn TTar (always assume no RNG abuse when in a suspect). If Tyranitar is paired with Choice or EB HP Bug Keldeo (which is the standard), then if Keldeo locks itself into SS or Hydro, Jellicent can come in and heal for free since CB Pursuit is piss weak burned, so I digress the 50/50 works both ways and for the most part Keldeo is not muscling through Jellicent on it's own -- it needs Tyranitar (the ONLY pursuit trapper that can reliably do this) to do this.
Also, that's another thing -- why do people constantly bring up both Toed and TTar? You can't just put Keldeo in sand and say it's spamming Rain Hydro Pumps lategame. You can't put something in rain and equally say that Scizor is pursuit trapping; when, like Spina pointed out, Scizor isn't as reliable at trapping as Tyranitar is.
Also, the combination of Goth, TTar, and Terrakion pretty much gets the same results as Keldeo so I don't see why people aren't suspecting that as well. I mean, Goth and TTar is a lot of support, but we're giving Keldeo a lot of support in this suspect too, aren't we hypocrites?
MikeDawg said:
Really.
Just, really.
That's your argument?
When Amo is ran in sand stall alongside fucking Jellicent?
OK.
-.-.-.-
So on that note, I want the community to take a look at Meru's sand stall team.
Here.
For some background knowledge, this team was built mid-BW1. In other words, when this team was built... Keldeo did not exist as a threat.
However, I'm sure that most of you can see that this team is more than capable of handling Keldeo. Hell, I know half the community has tried this team and can attest to it. Which brings me to my next point -- according to this discussion atm, Keldeo is muscling through that Jellicent, Roserade, and Latias with no problems. However, there is something you should note -- Jellicent, Roserade, and Latias; while only "checks", are still more than enough to deal with Keldeo. Why, you ask? Simple: Stall can run enough checks to play around Keldeo, just like offense can.
MikeDawg, I never once said the stall mons in my post were counters. I brought them up because they can check Keldeo, and with the plethora of checks Stall can run to check Keldeo, Keldeo hardly needs to be "countered" as the number of common checks can more than handle Keldeo.
Now while the fact that "Keldeo can't be countered, so it must be Uber" might be used, I have a counter to that: technically, nothing can switch into Terrakion (+2 rock gem Stone Edge, or +1 for LandoT, can murder all of its "counter", while nothing can escape a 2HKO from the CB set and the SubSalac puts pressure on offense). In essense, Terrakion is like Keldeo but prone to Scizor (and even then you Sub or Protect and can often beat Scizor anyway. Plus, like I mentioned earlier, Goth!!!).
Then there are things like CB KyuB, that stall cannot possibly "counter" either.
My point is that stall has to run numerous of checks to beat top tier OU threats in the metagame we have today. Heavy Offense already works like that so it never changed, but stall has. Meru's team has 3 Keldeo checks, AND IT WASN'T EVEN BUILT WHEN KELDEO WAS AROUND. This means that Keldeo isn't putting more of a stress on teambuilding than KyuB is or Terrakion is or any other top tier threat.
-.-.-.-
I apologize for quoting and answering, but MikeDawg you came off as a bit rude to me which was why I responded. Please be a bit more respectful in your responses, ok?
I do not plan to do this again, but I merely wanted to make some of my points more clear since they were not done in my OP.
Finally, as for the bulk Keldeo posses, I only meant that while it is bulky, it's often manageable. For instance, there are plenty of things in OU that can take +2 Extreme Speed from Lucario BEFORE hazard damage. This is why Lucario teams are often paired with Custap Skarm -- the spike support is essential.
Ultimately, in BW2, every Pokemon has the ability to cripple it's counters. Just look at Terrakion. However, things like CM Keldeo don't see much usage -- just like SubSD Rock Gem Terrakion doesn't. So I digress, Keldeo has more than enough checks in the metagame to keep it from being what I would consider broken.
Also, is it just me, or did we up (without anyone telling us?) the "standard support" quota we can give to a suspect Pokemon? Before LandoI, most suspect tests only allowed SR support or weather conditions -- not CB TTar or Scarf Toed, but only their weather abilities. Like Sand Force, Sand Veil, Hurricane acc., rain boosted STABS, etc. We never used weather inducers beyond their weather abilities -- so why are we doing it now?
EDIT:
AJC: That's false (what you said about rain) considering that Keldeo works equally well on Weatherless and Sand.
MikeDawg: :) forgiven
