You should remove Jirachi from Checks & Counters. A counter is not a counter, if the Pokemon, that is supposed to be countered, counters the counter. Right?
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Jirachi (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
It's a good check, however, and for matchups like Psyshock SubCM vs. Flash Cannon SubCM, the one with Psyshock wins. Same idea with Wish CM vs. Wish CM. It's not amazing; it's not a counter, it's a CHECK. Jirachi vs. Jirachi is a stalemate match-up, unless one is the Sub set with Fire Punch. It's a check; it can switch in but can't do much of anything in return. Obviously I will elaborate in the write-up.
Don't forget to do that for the Mixed Attacker as well.
I do think the 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spd Timid spread should at least be mentioned in the AC of the Wish CM set. Jirachi doesn't need to be a pseudo-physical wall in order to support the team well. Plus, being able to outspeed things like Mamoswine and Toxicroak, who would otherwise potentially hit Jirachi hard with LO EQ and +2 LO Drain Punch respectively, gives it some extra utility.
pokemon0078 you may want to remove the WIP from the tittle, as well as the bit were you say that this is a heavy WIP. Now on to the analysis:
Overview
SubCM
Set Comments:
Specially Defensive
Set Comments:
Choice Scarf
Set Comments:
Wish + CM
Set Comments:
Mixed Attacker
Additional Comments:
Substitute + Status
Set Comments:
Other Options
Checks and Counters
...phewwww that was a lot. Anyway just a little something i noticed, but please try to be more specific when talking about teammates, so we can see the reasons that you mentioned them (and if you actually know them).
Overview
- Change the second bullet point to this: Sturdy wall with lot of utility and support options, many resistances, and very hard to OHKO
- Remove the part where you say that it supports well, as this is alredy mentioned above
- Don't talk about Dugtrio specifically, rather about Ground-types in general, against which Jirachi struggles usually
- Tone down the sun things. Jirachi is not useless agains sun team, just handicaped
- Move the mention of rain a few positions up, so it can be together with the other pros
SubCM
Set Comments:
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Remove this entirely. No decent stall team is going to get swept by a single poke, and the rest that you say are already covered by your other bullet points. - Remove the bit about Keldeo as well
- Don't say use whatever you want for SR. Mention some partners that have good synergy with SubCM Jirachi and can be used in rain teams (Lando-T has good defensive synergy and checks Garchomp, one of the most dangerous pokes for jirachi, and Celebi can take on Ground-types)
- Elaborate as to why Terrakion and Latios are good partners. What Pokemon problematic for Jirachi do they weaken / eliminate?
- Same for Keldeo. Either explain why Keldeo is a good partner to Jirachi or don't mention it at all. Scarf Keldeo is great on any rain team anyway, so only mention it if it has specific things to offer to Jirachi.
Specially Defensive
Set Comments:
- Remove the best special wall part as Jirachi is not the one. Instead mention that its overall great bulk, multiple resistances, and support (paralyze support, wish support, U-turn free switch-ins, and SR) make it an awesome team player
- Remove the mention of Scarf Thund-T, as Jirachi is not such a good Thund-T switch in anyway, and if you rely on it to check it you are fucked. Remove special dragons (too generic and false, as Hydreigon is not walled by Jirachi) and mention Latios, Latias, Gengar, Kyurem-B
- When explaining U-turn, mention that it prevents Jirachi from getting trapped by Magnezone and Dugtrio
- Mention a 252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe spread with an Impish nature. This lets Jirachi to better handle physical dragons, Dugtrio, Terrakion, and a bunch of other threats.
- Fire Punch for non rain teams
- Mention partners to handle Ground-types, Heatran, and Volcarona. RestTalk Gyarados is one of the best defensive partners as it beats all of those. Celebi deals with Ground types, Rotom-W deals with everything bar Volcarona and benefits from Wish support, and Terrakion deals with the two Fire-types
Choice Scarf
Set Comments:
- Remove the lack of bulk part, as Jirachi is the bulkier scarfer in OU, and it can still tank resisted hits pretty well. Tanking many hits is not its job anyway, and Jirachi has more than enough bulk to take a few resisted hits and priority
- Mention that Scarf Jirachi's biggest flaw is its lack of power, leaving it easy walled, and easy to set-up on after it kills something
- ThunderPunch's only use is to revenge kill Gyarados, while dealing a good amount of damage to Keldeo too. Everything else is irrelevant.
- I want you to mention teammates to take on the Pokemon that wall and/or can set-up on Scarf Jirachi. You don't want to make Jirachi sweep, but to revenge kill dangerous threats. Even if a sweep occurs rarely, this is not the main purpose of the set.
Wish + CM
Set Comments:
- I am not sure what this set's main role is, but i am leaning towards support. I want the opinion of others on this one, but for now remove the part where you say that support is not one of this sets primary jobs
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Remove this as most walls have one of those moves (Celebi, Heatran, Hippo, Skarmory, SpD Kyurem-B)
- You forgot to talk about Garchomp when talking for Pokemon that fuck Jirachi. Same as usualy, Rotom-W, Landorus-T, and any Gyarados are good teammates
- Explain more specifically why Terrakion is a good teammate
Mixed Attacker
Additional Comments:
- Mention teammates that appreciate the Pokemon that Jirachi can lure and eliminate. Eg if Gastro is taken down with Energy Ball, you can spam water attacks unhindered (good for rain teams).
Substitute + Status
Set Comments:
- When you talk about Toxic, mention how lethal Iron Head + Toxic can be against slower opponents
- Mention that with Toxic, Jirachi acts as a lure for common checks and counters, such as Garchomp, Hippwodon, Gastrodon, and Landorus-T
- Explain why rain and sun are annoying and why Jirachi doesn't want to be there, or don't mention it at all
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Remove this - Why is Kyurem-B such a good partner? Please elaborate
Other Options
- Add a Specs set (with Doom Desire of 'course)
Checks and Counters
- Remove Dragonite
- Remove Lati@s (why did you mention this?)
- Landorus-T and Skarmory can wall SpD variants with Thunder and Body Slam respectively so its not Scarf only
- Mention specifically that SD SpD Scizor counters the top 4 Jirachi sets
- Gastrodon (counters the 3 most used sets)
- Jellicent (walls the SpD versions with Body Slam and Scarf Jirachi)
- RestTalk Gyarados (walls any Jirachi lacking an electric move)
- Gliscor (walls anything except from CM versions)
- Ferrothorn (walls any set without a fire move, but is set-up bait for the CM versions, unless it has Hippo or something as teammates)
- Forretress (sets up on SpD version with Body Slam and Scarf Jirachi)
- Magnezone (Charge Beam traps and kills SpD without U-turn and Scarf, while Specs can only trap the Scarf set)
- Tentacruel (walls SpD versions with Body Slam and Scarf Jirachi)
...phewwww that was a lot. Anyway just a little something i noticed, but please try to be more specific when talking about teammates, so we can see the reasons that you mentioned them (and if you actually know them).
Can we please mention Psychic in at least the AC of Sub CM and Wish CM sets please? I acknowledge that Psyshock is often better, especially against physical walls however, lately I have noticed a slight increase in bulky ground types, such as Gliscor, Hippowdon and Landorus-T, all of which are hit harder from Psychic.
Cheers
Cheers
You still haven't added everything. Here is what you missed:
Also here are some things that are weird, need explaining, or are just irrelevant/false:
Overview said:
AC of SpD said:
Set Comments of Wish + CM said:
Checks and Counters said:
Also here are some things that are weird, need explaining, or are just irrelevant/false:
Why do you mention Rain Volcarona? It isn't troubling for CM Jirachi as it can paralyze her or 2HKO her with a +1 Psyshock while it does nothing back. Why do you mention Dnite and Mence too? They are not even checks to SubCM Jirachi. So in other words why are you mentioning Terrakion to take on Pokemon that don't have anything to do with Jirachi?AC of SubCM said:
Why the obsession with Dnite? After SR +1 Jirachi 2HKOes it, and it risks getting paralyzed or wasting its Lum Berry if it comes in anyway. Dnite is a shaky check at best so i don't think it needs to be mentioned.AC of SubCM said:
Jirachi counters Latios, Latias, and Gengar, while also countering the best Kyu-B sets, aka Sub, Scarf, and SpD with SubRoost. So replace checks with counters.Set Comments of SpD said:
Why is a Dnite check needed? Dnite can't set-up on any of the moves of Jirachi as after SR Iron Head 2HKOes, Ice Punch OHKOes, U-turn bla bla, and Trick means you already have used your Scarf so Jirachi will be able to use Ice Punch. Same with NP Celebi. No sane Celebi will try to set-up on a Scarf Jirachi that deals major damage to it. So remove those two. Thundurus-T, and SD Scizor are way better examples.AC of Scarf said:
I don't think that Ferro is the best hazard partner for Jirachi. It doesn't deal particularly well against most of the Pokemon that trouble Jirachi (Garchomp, Landorus, Mamoswine) and has redundand defensive typing. I think that Skarmory is a way better partner as it counters most of the Grounds except from Sheer Force Lando, and has better defensive synergy with Jirachi. However, Ferrothorn is the best defensive Spikes user in OU so mention it doesn't hurt i guess. Celebi with SR is also a good teammate that has good synergy, and can even provide Heal Bell which helps many defensive teams.AC of Wish + CM said:
sorry about that, actually, everything you mentioned in that post was right the first time I did it, but I ended up doing the majority of the changes, like, 10 times.
disputing two things though:
252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in rain: 283-338 (70.04 - 83.66%)
I don't know about you, but for me, Jirachi is usually in range to be KOed by that. Rain Volcarona is an obstacle for Jirachi to set up; if it's out, Jirachi's not safe to come in. If it's at +1, Fire Blast OHKOes. That's why I mention it.
disputing two things though:
I mention rain Volcarona because of this calc:
252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in rain: 283-338 (70.04 - 83.66%)
I don't know about you, but for me, Jirachi is usually in range to be KOed by that. Rain Volcarona is an obstacle for Jirachi to set up; if it's out, Jirachi's not safe to come in. If it's at +1, Fire Blast OHKOes. That's why I mention it.
I talked with SDS a little about this; CM Roar always wins CM wars, and CM Refresh always beats defensive Jirachi. Electric / Water coverage CM sets are hard-walled by both Latis. The main offensive CM variant is walled by both. I don't think they should be removed. It is definitely dependent on set. Oh, and CM Reflect Latias also wins. This is really all Latias, however, so I'm all for removing Latios.
It's a stretch to say that CM Refresh Latias always beats Specially Defensive Jirachi. Latias still has major problems damaging it even with a boosted Dragon Pulse, while Jirachi can just alternate between Body Slam and Iron Head until it get lucky enough to flinch-hax Latias to death. God forbid Sandstorm is up -- if it is, Latias is probably screwed.
CM with Roar Latias can be mentioned as a check to any CM Jirachi, even though Latias hates getting paralyzed and loses in a last mon scenario. CM with Refresh Latias is just a no though. SpD Jirachi 4HKOes Latias with Iron Head after a Body Slam, and it has 34% chance to flinch three times in a row not factoring crits. So sooner or later Jirachi will get past Latias, and there is nothing Refresh can do except for meaninglessly stalling for time.
Add Skarmory as a teammate to the AC of the Wish + CM set as it can provide spikes and deals with most ground-types.
In checks and counters you have Latias and you say the Roar + CM variant especially. It isn't especially, it is the only Latias variant that can act as a check to CM version of Jirachi so make sure to mention it. If i wasn't clear, CM + Roar Latias is the only Latias set that will be mentioned in the checks and counters of Jirachi.
Finally, about this:
I trust that you will make those changes so
QC Approved (1/3)
In checks and counters you have Latias and you say the Roar + CM variant especially. It isn't especially, it is the only Latias variant that can act as a check to CM version of Jirachi so make sure to mention it. If i wasn't clear, CM + Roar Latias is the only Latias set that will be mentioned in the checks and counters of Jirachi.
Finally, about this:
Volcarona is supposed to come into Jirachi, and by that time Jirachi will have a sub. So Volcarona has the option to either use Fire Blast or use Quiver Dance as Jirachi uses Calm Mind. If you use Fire Blast you break the Sub and Jirachi uses CM. Then you get OHKOed in the next turn by Psychock (59.16 - 69.77%) while you deal back to +1 Jirachi in rain 47.02 - 55.94% WITH Life Orb. So you sacrificed a whole Pokemon to do ~46% to Jirachi, after lefties? Doesn't sound as a check to me, more like a last hope attempt. If you use QD as Jirachi used CM, then next turn you kill the Sub and Jirachi OHKOes. All those calcs assume SR on the opponents field. Not to mention that Jirachi can fire off a Thunder for free to the incoming Volcarona and ruin any potential use it might had. So please remove Volcarona as well. We don't mention Pokemon that you cannot set-up on, we only mention checks, counters, and revenge killers, and Volcarona is none of those.
I trust that you will make those changes so
QC Approved (1/3)
Wouldn´t a revenge Killer prefer to not take the 40% chance that the opponents boosted sweeper kills you?
I have done quick calculations against some notable sweeper in OU and don´t see the relevance of Iron Head occupying the stab slot over zen headbutt:
you loose damage output against psychic sweeper but things like alakazam will crumble under u-turn or even fire punch and offensive reuniculus is hardly dealt with by a somewhat weak scarf user.
Apart from that Iron head hits Tyranitar and most Ice-types harder, but those can often be defeated by another fast offensive threat like any of the new fighting types. It is also necessary to mention that Scarf-Rachi is not easily switched in on your opponents offensive Tyranitar or Mamoswine, so only Weavile might be an easy target...
Zen Headbutt on the other hand, can heavily damage dangerous threats like Calm Mind Keldeo and is the better choice in desperate situations against boosting Gyarados or Volcarona to get them into killing range of a priority move. Even in case you need to deal with more bulky threats Zen Headbutt will not let you down much, since lot´s of bulky attackers are water or steel type in OU.
Overall "Zen-Scarf-Rachi" is capable to revenge a broader range of relevant threats. In my opinion, if you try to revenge kill, your focus should not be how often the opponent might not move, but how often it will still move/live to heavily dent your revenge killer. The higher damage output when using Zen Headbutt can save your live.
I don´t want to argue against the usefulness of Iron Head in general! But Scarf Rachi benefits a lot from using Zen Headbutt, so I would advocate for a slash of Zen Headbutt/ Iron Head on this specific set.
I would like if the OP rewrited the SubCM analysis. This is because the way it is written discourages people to use this set outside rain, but this set is still very effective outside rain. While it is true that under rain, you have a 100% accurate Thunder, and can use Water Pulse if you want to Parafusion, as well as other benefits like reduced weakness to Fire-type attacks, Jirachi can be used just as well, on sandstorm, for example, where the passive damage helps Jirachi when it try to use opposing Pokémon as setup fodder, putting them at KO range of one of its coverage moves. Also, the fact that Jirachi loses its weakness to Fire-type moves under rain is offset by the fact that it "gains" a weakness to Water-type attacks; Surfs and Hydro Pumps aimed at Jirachi become far stronger, and it is harder to use bulky Water-types as setup fodder thanks to their stronger Scalds; you have to grab even more CM boosts due to that.
Also, I still think that Thunder Wave should be slashed as a third option on the second slot, as Thunder Wave is like Thunder in that it cannot affect Ground-types, and miss out the damage, but is much more reliable than both Body Slam and Thunder, and is useful if you really need to paralyze certain Pokémon. Thunder is really only useful because it does not leave Jirachi walled by bulky Water-types, as it is otherwise just as unreliable as Body Slam, and as the last nail on the coffin, this is combined with the side-effect of Thunder Wave in that it does not affect Ground-types, Thundurus-T, and Jolteon.
Also, I still think that Thunder Wave should be slashed as a third option on the second slot, as Thunder Wave is like Thunder in that it cannot affect Ground-types, and miss out the damage, but is much more reliable than both Body Slam and Thunder, and is useful if you really need to paralyze certain Pokémon. Thunder is really only useful because it does not leave Jirachi walled by bulky Water-types, as it is otherwise just as unreliable as Body Slam, and as the last nail on the coffin, this is combined with the side-effect of Thunder Wave in that it does not affect Ground-types, Thundurus-T, and Jolteon.
Hi, nice revamp. But I don't see physically defensive (Twave ice punch iron head wish to beat breloom and gliscor). I use it very often, and should definitely be up there. Thanks!
And cb iron head with twave support and specs doom desire with physical attackers are both also viable.
And cb iron head with twave support and specs doom desire with physical attackers are both also viable.
^ Physically defensive is mentioned in the AC of the specially defensive set. I think T-Wave is fine in AC on the SpD set. The most common switch-ins to SpD Jirachi usually don't give a shit about T-Wave but don't like B-Slam (Lando-T, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Garchomp, Thund-T) or are immune to Body Slam but don't really care about T-Wave either (Jellicent).