Is Swampert really viable in OU as a wall anymore?

In Adv, Swampert was the definition of a 'bulky water'. Brilliant typing that left him with only a single, uncommon weakness on the defensive side of things, plenty of invaluable resistances such as Rock and Fire, and two fantastic STAB attacks. It was Swampert alone that forced pretty much the entire metagame to carry Hidden Power Grass, to kill the bulky mudfish off.

In D/P, he initially seemed to have got considerably better. Stealth Rock, Waterfall, physical ice moves and the improved Stone Edge are all decent points in Swampert's favour. However, as the D/P metagame has shifted, people have shied away from Swampert in favour of many of the other bulky Grounds and Waters that have seemingly usurped Swampert's crown. Whether it be due to Swampert's lack of reliable recovery, the addition of Grass Knot to many powerful sweepers he would have otherwise been able to wall, or just his 100/90/90 defenses which, despite being decent, maybe aren't up to the standard of other available Pokemon.

Hippowdon seems to be one of the reasons Swampert seems to have become less useable. Whilst he misses out on Swampert's secondary Water typing and the useful resists it brings, he exchanges that for a reliable recovery move in the form of Slack Off, as well as vastly superior physical defensive capabilities (106/118) though Swampert does win in terms of special defense. His Sandstream ability is also a good asset to the numerous stall-based teams that both Pokemon are relatively common on.

Gliscor is another new addition that has in many ways overtaken Swampert in terms of physical walling. Whilst initially he lacks the Rock resist that is most valuable to the Ground type, he can quickly regain it with another asset, Roost. Whilst he lacks the required resistances to the aforementioned Stone Edge, he exchanges it for the arguably more useful Bug and Fighting resistances, the latter being particularly important due to the introduction of Close Combat.

Of course, Gastrodon is going to always draw comparisons between itself and Swampert; they share the same typing. Whilst Gastrodon initially seems to be the inferior Pokemon due to much lower stats (his 111/68/82 cannot compare to Swampert's 100/90/90) but however, he has one saving grace, in Recover. Whilst this has not been enough to swing most people away from using Swampert, it has certainly persuaded some, and may arguably be the preferable choice on teams without Wish support, or where they are relying on their bulky water/ground to counter several potent threats.

As Water types go, Slowbro, despite also falling in popularity as D/P has progressed, also has several points to recommend over Swampert. Most notably, superior physical defensive capabilities, as well as Slack Off to prolong his already decent longevity. Furthermore, he maintains an invaluable water resist, which Swampert would kill for, as well as a useful Fighting resistance. However, he loses out on the electric immunity and rock resist Swampert's typing brings to the table, which may be an important factor for many.

Vaporeon has also become very popular since Adv; it's water immunity and fantastic Hp alone makes it good competition for Swampert. When you factor in the Wish support it offers to any team, as well as not caring about Grass Knot due to his small weight, he certainly seems to be stiff competition for the other bulky waters. Milotic's popularity has dropped significantly since Adv as well; things just hit so much harder now, it's not the all-purpose wall that it was then. However, Hypnosis, Recover, Marvel Scale, and the ability to survive weaker Grass Knots are all positives that Swampert cannot boast; though again, Milotic does miss out on the resists of the Mudfish.

Suicune is another bulky water that has fallen in popularity since Adv, due to the fact that it also suffers from Swampert's biggest problem; no means of immediate recovery. Whilst his typing is certainly inferior to Swampert's, he boasts massively superior defensive stats (100/115/115 as opposed to Swampert's 100/90/90) make Suicune seem a decent option over 'Pert. Reflect helps a bit too.

Whilst I personally believe that Swampert's usefulness as a wall in OU is limited to ReSTalking and potentially the standard set with very reliable Wish support, I'm surprised many people don't opt for his more offensive sets. His base 110 Attack and STAB on two very good attacks makes him a potent offensive threat; whether it be a Choice Band set, a psuedo-Crocune set with Curse, or a Torrent-abusing Sub-puncher. Whilst Mixpert is certainly a useable set, I don't think it's really playing to Swampert's strengths as much as other sets do, mostly because it is in many ways outclassed by other bulky Grounds/Waters.

Discuss.
 
In Adv, Swampert was the definition of a 'bulky water'. Brilliant typing that left him with only a single, uncommon weakness on the defensive side of things, plenty of invaluable resistances such as Rock and Fire, and two fantastic STAB attacks. It was Swampert alone that forced pretty much the entire metagame to carry Hidden Power Grass, to kill the bulky mudfish off.

ADV Sceptile much?

Swampert was in nearly everyone of my ADV teams, I played a lot of ubers back then and he handled Groudon rather nicely. Now I never use him I never really need the resist he carries and usually opt for Gliscor instead. Due to his loss in popularity it has caused a noticeable decline in most all Grass pokemon, like Sceptile who was widely used in ADV as a counter to Swampert has now fallen greatly in usage.
 
One thing people found out was that Garchomp defensively was more solid then Swampert. So then you have to think what does Swampert do thats so special? The answer is actually he does nothing really that sets him away from others. Everything from Milotic to Hippowdon had something that would want you to use them (marvel scale and sandstorm as well as both having healing moves besides rest).

Swampert has nothing really going for him and isnt the solid tar counter anymore as CBtar can 2hko with crunch. And earthquake isnt going to ohko. Plus hydro pump wont be doing any real damage over 50% with the ss sDef boost.

More people realize this and I myself find swampert obsolete.

The only thing he might have is the subpunching and the electric immunity but to be honest ... I think quagsire does everything better then swampert and is the premiere choice since quagsire actually has things like water absorb and haze.
 
That and the fact that everyone is too scared to use rest without sleep talk these days. Pert was bulky enough in advance that it made do with just rest for recovery. Now since no one uses rest, it just doesn't wall well enough anymore. Unless you have a wish passer in the team, Pert's only gonna be able to switch in a limited number of times before he faints.
 
Walls in D/P need recovery more than in ADV mainly because things just hit harder. The other Pokemon you mentioned have recovery, Swampert has trouble countering things when it can't switch in more than once. It hits harder than many of the other bulky waters/grounds(especially on the physcial side) but its very questionable as a wall.
 
But I don't think Swampert is used as a wall. It's definitely played defensively, but most often, it's considered a tank. And as a tank, it functions quite nicely. It can still switch in pretty easily, and it has enough versatility in it's move list, and enough power behind it's attacks that it can still mess a lot of things up. I personally enjoy the BOAHpert that was posted awhile back, but there are plenty of other things that it can do as well. There really are no walls anymore (outside of shuckle), and if you try to use Swampert of all things as a wall, you'll be in a world of pain. It's an offensive tank; it can take a few hits, support the team, and scare things off. You just can't use it quite the same way, but it's more than viable.
 
Ever since I started playing competitively in d/p, I never really saw what was so great about Swampert when compared to the other walls I could choose from with recovery outside of rest and overall better physical defense. What did Swampert counter in advance anyway? Just Tyranitar?
 
People just saw Swampert as really good, because he did soo well in Adv. Games.

He's still good, but theres better options out there.

I personally prefer Swampert
 
You're right. Without a healing move, he's not as effective anymore. Swampert seems to me like a jack-of-all-trades. Occasionally I'd like to go differently and hit hard with his 110 attack. People don't use his attack enough.
 
Swampert has the ability to single handily counter beastly threats such as most Zapdos, Raikou, Jolteon, Electivre, Metagross, Tyranitar (paired with Dark resist aka Skarmory or Machamp). Electric immunity, rock and fire resist while being Ice neutral. This results in many safe switch in possiblities, which translates in early Stealth Rock. Very potent physical dragon counter, aka every dragon besides specsmence and chainchomp. Access to roar. STAB Earthquake comes with sand stream immune lets him combat Metagross and Tyranitar and in conjunction with Ice Beam it is the only attacking move he'll need. In this way he's unique and shouldn't be compared to Gliscor or Hippowdon in any way.

Look at Milotic, Suicune, Vaporeon etc all you want. You'll find they have no Stealth Rock, no rock resist, sand stream immunity, electric weakness, and generally sucky attacking stats.

Swampert shouldn't be played totally as a wall, more as a counter to certain threats, a 'total stop' to them, so to speak. Stealth rock as a bonus, Roar to ensure things stay his way. Great Attack stat to boot.
 
Leads-Swampert (4957 leads)
Unweighted-Swampert (17540 usages)
Weighted-Swampert (22145138 points)

That puts it at #10, #15 and #16 respectively, meaning that its only dropped a few points.

Now lets see this: Swampert is only 2 points under Gliscor and 14 points ahead of Hippowdon. If Swampert use is declining, then so is Hippowdon and Infernape, who, btw, Swampert pushed off the top 10 leads. That's a big fucking deal to me.

Swampert is very unique in that it may have the best typing in the game, able to tear apart some unprepared teams through defensive offense or just pure offense. It can outstall many, many Pokes in OU with ReStalk and even now it retains the ability to chage the Metagame. It can beat any Electric in OU without a Grass move, and is still a valuable defense.

Swampert isn't outclassed by anything. Even looking at your list you see key flaws:
Hippowdon: A falling in usage incredible Poke that has the hassle of auto-Sandstream. Because of this, it is likely to fall to Garchomp(Who he, unlike Swampert will never OHKO) and has vastly inferior Special Defense.

Gliscor: Lacks Rock resistance, if Tyranitar Critical hits with Stone Edge Gliscor can be OHKOed. Metagross who gets an Attack boost will 2HKO, and Gliscor usually only 3HKOs with EarthQuake.

Gastrodon: lol, try again. Gastrodon fails in lack of power and defense and compares better defensively to Vaporeon. It has less power, though. This also applies for Quagsire, whos Ability, Water Absorb, only applies to facing Water types.

Slowbro: Haha try being OHKOed by Crunch, Metagross with ThunderPunch and other stuff.

Vaporeon: Sadly, it fails to ThunderPunching Metagross and Tyranitar.

Suicune: Has an amazing chance of being OHKOed by Tyranitar, and also lacks sufficient healing. This is a Ground-move lacking Pert.

Saying Swampert is outclassed is saying that Deoxys-S isn't fast, its not true. Is it still viable in OU? Yes, it can still wall several threats as well as just other Pokes. It is the best of both worlds from Ground and Water types.
 
Look at Milotic, Suicune, Vaporeon etc all you want. You'll find they have no Stealth Rock, no rock resist, sand stream immunity, electric weakness, and generally sucky attacking stats.

What are you talking about? Look at their Special Attack, and then you will see that Milotic has 100 Sp. Attack (-10 than Swampert), Vaporeon 110 Sp. Attack (the same as Swampert) and Suicune 90 Sp. Attack (-20 than Swampert). Now, Milotic has Hypnosis and Recover to work with (enough for 10 Sp. Attack and Stealth Rock, which can be used by a lot of stuff); Vaporeon has the always needed Wish, huge Substitutes with 130 BS HP, better Sp. Defense and Water Absorb (all of this can help with the lack of SR, and less Defense); and Suicune, with highly better defenses, Calm Mind, and with one CM, Electric and Grass (which are usually special) are resisted really well.

Swampert has the same problem as Snorlax: they need a good recovery move to work right defensively.
 
Trust, Swampert has 110 ATTACK and 85 SP ATK. So your numbers are wrong. Of course, that doesn't help Swampert's case, but the point is that Swampert can hit from the physical side, which is something that the others cannot do. It does have problems, but don't discount 'pert. He's still a fantastic pokemon.
 
No, not as a pure wall. If you're using swampert now it's generally as a bulky sweeper, for a pure wall IMO gastrodon is a bit better just because of recovery. However what is being said is true, he's not what he used to be.
 
Swampert has the ability to single handily counter beastly threats such as most Zapdos, Raikou, Jolteon, Electivre, Metagross, Tyranitar (paired with Dark resist aka Skarmory or Machamp). Electric immunity, rock and fire resist while being Ice neutral. This results in many safe switch in possiblities, which translates in early Stealth Rock. Very potent physical dragon counter, aka every dragon besides specsmence and chainchomp. Access to roar. STAB Earthquake comes with sand stream immune lets him combat Metagross and Tyranitar and in conjunction with Ice Beam it is the only attacking move he'll need. In this way he's unique and shouldn't be compared to Gliscor or Hippowdon in any way.

I'd agree there with Hp Grassless Electrics and the other ones you said, bar Tyranitar. CB Crunch is now a 2HKO; if you're playing it with Machamp, then you've already got him covered anyway; without a boosting item . And I would go so far as to say that Hippowdon counters pretty much everything on that list anyway; generic 'Electric Hp Ice' won't 2HKO him apart from maybe a CM'd Raikou, but he'll just kill him off with EQ before he has to take another one.

I'll admit that he can be good for getting SR down, but to be honest, so much stuff can do that.As for 'physical dragon counter', he fails to counter the #1 physical Dragon in the game, SD Garchomp. The standard Mixpert cannot OHKO with Ice Beam even without a Yache, and is 2HKO'd after a SD in return.

Look at Milotic, Suicune, Vaporeon etc all you want. You'll find they have no Stealth Rock, no rock resist, sand stream immunity, electric weakness, and generally sucky attacking stats.

Suicune has base 90 Sp.Atk, which is decent. Milotic has base 100, and Vaporeon hits base 110. And whilst they have no SR resist, SS immunity, or electric resistance, I would go so far as to say that at least Vaporeon and Milotic make up for this easily with recovery, which I consider to be one of the most important aspects of a Pokemon being played to counter several threats.

Devilindenial said:
Swampert isn't outclassed by anything. Even looking at your list you see key flaws:
Hippowdon: A falling in usage incredible Poke that has the hassle of auto-Sandstream. Because of this, it is likely to fall to Garchomp(Who he, unlike Swampert will never OHKO) and has vastly inferior Special Defense.

Gliscor: Lacks Rock resistance, if Tyranitar Critical hits with Stone Edge Gliscor can be OHKOed. Metagross who gets an Attack boost will 2HKO, and Gliscor usually only 3HKOs with EarthQuake.

Gastrodon: lol, try again. Gastrodon fails in lack of power and defense and compares better defensively to Vaporeon. It has less power, though. This also applies for Quagsire, whos Ability, Water Absorb, only applies to facing Water types.

Slowbro: Haha try being OHKOed by Crunch, Metagross with ThunderPunch and other stuff.

Vaporeon: Sadly, it fails to ThunderPunching Metagross and Tyranitar.

Suicune: Has an amazing chance of being OHKOed by Tyranitar, and also lacks sufficient healing. This is a Ground-move lacking Pert.

I'm sure several people would disagree that Sandstream is a 'hassle'. It adds to the whole stally theme which TSS teams work with. Incidentally, standard Swampert will never OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam, or Ice Punch for that matter either. Avalanche will, but you're ignoring the fact that 90% of SD Garchomp will carry a Yache Berry. Furthermore, Hippowdon's physical defensive capabilities are significantly better than those of Swampert. As for Gliscor, he will almost always 2HKO 252Hp Metagross with Stealth Rock taken into account. Only CBGross is capable of 2HKOing Gliscor, iirc, though he doesn't always need the attack boost to do so. Steel resists aren't exactly thinly spread though :p

Gastrodon has slightly better Sp.Atk than Swampert, and doesn't take hits much worse on the physical side.

CB Tyranitar Stone Edge vs 252/252 +Def Swampert: 26.49% - 31.19%
CB Tyranitar Stone Edge vs 252/252 +Def Gastrodon: 29.81% - 34.98%

Those calcs were with Psypokes calculator, so they might be slightly off, but the difference isn't that big- and when Recover is taken into account, Gastrodon is probably going to have more longevity.

Slowbro can survive a CBTar Crunch, actually. Both Swampert and Slowbro are 2HKO'd, though Swampert does take a lot less damage. And then, Slowbro has the useful Water and Fighting resists, as well as reliable healing. Easily survives a CBGross Thunderpunch too; in fact, with any boosting item that isn't a Choice Band, Thunderpunch fails to 2HKO. Vaporeon admittedly loses to those things, but instead it can counter the likes of Infernape and Gyarados. As well as reliable healing, which can support the rest of the team.

I would agree with Suicune though. Just thought I'd mention it for perspective.
 
What are you talking about? Look at their Special Attack, and then you will see that Milotic has 100 Sp. Attack (-10 than Swampert), Vaporeon 110 Sp. Attack (the same as Swampert) and Suicune 90 Sp. Attack (-20 than Swampert). Now, Milotic has Hypnosis and Recover to work with (enough for 10 Sp. Attack and Stealth Rock, which can be used by a lot of stuff); Vaporeon has the always needed Wish, huge Substitutes with 130 BS HP, better Sp. Defense and Water Absorb (all of this can help with the lack of SR, and less Defense); and Suicune, with highly better defenses, Calm Mind, and with one CM, Electric and Grass (which are usually special) are resisted really well.

Swampert has the same problem as Snorlax: they need a good recovery move to work right defensively.

STAB EQ, outpowers both in attack numbers and base power, better attack typing in general (hitting Tyranitar, Metagross, great coverage with Ice) etc. That's what I ment. And CB Tar Crunch doesn't 2HKO nearly. 42% - 50%, take into account lefties, and Swampert is left with 12% - 28% after 2 Crunches.
 
Vaporeon serves me so much better than Swampert as a Bulky Water. It helps the team out with Wish Support, takes on DD Gyara with HP Electric(Part can do that too, but really, it doesn't have the slots), stops Mixape dead in its tracks, and can also take on Heatran much better owing to better HP/SDef.

Swampert just isn't the monster it used to be... It barely survives 2 CB TTar Crunches at max health(which its not going to stay at for too long, given the lack of instant recovery and its purpose of taking hits), gets slapped about by almost any sweeper, and can't really dish out enough damage back. Metagross isn't really going to enjoy coming in on Vaporeon when its going to get hit by STAB Surf off 270 SAtk now is it? And anyway, this is DP, you don't rely on one Pokemon to counter everything. Vaporeon just brings so much more to the team than Swampert does.

SR isn't even an argument, given the number of Pokemon that learn it, and the rarity of good Wishers.
 
Swampert is for teams who can't fit Hippowdon + Suicune (those are the two Bulky Waters/Grounds that have similar defense values). He is not a wall. In fact, I would bet Swampert is more common on offensive teams because he takes one slot up doing the majority of what Hippowdon + Suicune do combined. Obviously Swampert isn't used on pure defensive teams any more, that's because its no longer one of the best defensive Pokemon in the game. However, it still has some of the best resists in the game and the ability to threaten everything it can switch in on. This gives you a free turn to Stealth Rock or Toxic in.

Swampert versus the rest of the Bulky Waters/Grounds is more a stylistic, team based choice than one of pure outclassing.
 
Swampert got better in DP. Since every Electric runs HP Ice now, he stops every single one.

If you try to put Swampert in the role of "generic physical wall", he's going to be inferior to Hippowdon, yes. However, Swampert exists as a mixed tank with typing that lets it effectively stop all Metagross, Electric-types, some Tyranitar, etc. Gastrodon can do something similar with Recover access, but Swampert's still the best at what he does.
 
Are you crazy or what? Swampert isn't as good as it was in Adv, but it will be OU all D/P. It's really good, but there are a bigger offensive now, so it's defensive capabilities are worse. Anyway, Swampert will be OU, because Grass Knot is used only by Infernape and, obviously, Grass types, as Celebi and Roserade.
 
I personally think it should be either UU or Bl Due to grass knot on infernape and plenty of other counters for it

Are you Fucking kidding me? By your logic, and this is by your logic, Garchomp should be UU due to Ice Shard on Weavile and Mamoswine and plenty of other counters such as Bronzong and Cresselia.

Oh and lets move down Heracross because any flying pokemon will beat it down.

Hell lets move Gengar to NU because Bronzong and Weavile beat it as well anything with Sucker Punch.

You can't move anything down because it has a weakness or a few counters. If something didn't have counters then it would be Uber most likely.
 
I like Swampert in that it is one of the only Stealth Rockers that can beat Bronzong one on one with Hydro Pump. It provides an invaluable Rock resist and counters Tyranitar quite well. It is one of the more defensive Ground types without any drawbacks. Hippowdon is great, but causes a Sandstorm. Gliscor is great, but has a nasty Ice weakness which is only increased by the commonness of Ice moves thanks to Garchomp and Salamence (to a lesser extent). Donphan, although slightly more physically defensive than Swampert, fails to deliver on the Special side and is stopped by Bronzong. It basically brings the positives of Water and the positives of Ground together.

Slowbro can't really counter Tyranitar the same way Swampert can because of its Psychic typing. Vaporeon can't lay Stealth Rocks. Starmie is not really bulky in the same way; they are completely different (in fact, I use both Swampert and Starmie on one of my teams).

Basically, Swampert fills a little niche on my team, and other teams, as well, but even with all these positives, Swampert IS one of the weakers links on my team.

Edit:
I personally think it should be either UU or Bl Due to grass knot on infernape and plenty of other counters for it

Uhh, I don't think you know how the tiers are made. Go read through the thread about the tiers or read this. Keep in mind that UU means Under Used, and consider that Swampert is #16 in weighted usage.
 
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