Ho-Oh's power comes from something that is, I believe, more frightening than Metagross' CB Meteor Mash or Garchomp's Earthquake. Sacred Fire, as a move, and an effect, is something that very few Pokemon can switch into (though I don't like the whole *must be able to switch in to count as a counter* thing). Physical walls, Skarmory and Rhyperior, don't like the chance of a burn (and Skarmory doesn't like the super-effective hit). Guts users generally don't like the fire-typing. Non-water Pokemon don't like the chance of burn, either, so unless they're carrying a Lum Berry, they're not going to switch in. Flash Fire Pokemon have the chance of getting hit with Earthquake, especially Heatran. And then, there's always the threat of mixed sets (I really like the Sacred Fire/Thunderbolt moveset I attacked earlier).
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Is Ho-oh still an uber?
- Thread starter EarthBender
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Tyranitar really has brought out a lot of people questioning what should be Uber anymore. This one I would say stays Uber though. Simply because of Sacred Fire. It has such a high Sp.Def that most would focus on attacking it's defense. But when your physical attacker gets burned by sacred fire, then it's all over.
Also, if it were allowed in OU, Stealth Rock would almost seem manditory, which would centralize the metagame too much. Even then all it needs is a back up rapid spinner and Roost.
Also, if it were allowed in OU, Stealth Rock would almost seem manditory, which would centralize the metagame too much. Even then all it needs is a back up rapid spinner and Roost.
I've noticed this as well. =) I completely agree.
Add in Gyarados (Elec), Rhyperior (Water + Grass), Heatran (Ground), Magnezone (Ground), Celebi (Bug), Weavile (Fight) to your list.
The biggest reason to let Ho-oh into OU is Stealth Rock, but letting it in forces you to use Stealth Rock; it's too strong to let in without Stealth Rock down. I don't like the idea of forcing all teams to use Stealth Rock or die to Ho-oh; it should stay uber.
Even burned pokemon can OHK Ho-oh with Stone Edge if they have Choice Band. I'll gladly switch Rhyperior into Ho-oh if I have a heal beller.
I always thought that if something would go down on the tier list, that'd be because it cannot hold it's own in it's current environment. I don't see why Ho-Oh wouldn't be good enough for Uber. Stealth Rock probably won't be used at all in Ubers since only 3 monsters take more than neutral damage from it. It's superior stats, Sacred Fire and large movepool are a bit too much for OU to handle IMO.
We don't really care about the Uber tier, though. We put the stuff that's too strong for the "real," aka standard metagame, and put it in ubers, just like we put the stuff that's too weak for standard into the UU tier.
Lum Berry hampers Garchomp's effectiveness because it has so few reliable switchins already. Further, Ho-oh wouldn't stay in on Garchomp: what you'd probably see is a switch to Starmie, who easily takes Stone Edge or looks at Swords Dance and goes "LOL Chompy GG." The Garchomp user probably switches out of Starmie, but once Ho-oh comes back in, Lum Berry is already spent. 359 Atk SF does 26-31% to Min HP/Def Garchomp despite being NVE. If it gets Burned, its in a lot of trouble because it doesn't have any immunities or resistances worth hollering about.
Rhyperior and TTar also take crap damage from that set, but as I said, they are greatly affected by Burn, and Burned CB TTar Pursuit only does 35-41% on min HP/Def Ho-oh.
People can go "OMG Stealth Rock weak" all they want, but nothing stops anyone from building a team around Ho-oh with multiple Rapid Spinners. Ho-oh still has that sexy Sp. Defense, and easily switches in on Azelf. I haven't seen Thunderbolt on any Azelf set as of yet, and Ho-oh easily takes Schemed Psychics while LOLing at FT and Grass Rope. 359 Sacred Fire takes a massive chunk of Azelf's HP, and 394 ranges from 83-98%, allowing for a KO with Burn.
Ho-oh can also switch in on both of Heracross' STAB moves, sure, it has to watch out for Stone Edge, but if Stone Edge does a miss hax, its down to 3 PP. Ho-oh could easily pressure stall simply by adding Protect to its set.
People are seriously underestimating Ho-oh here. Adding it in will centralize the metagame.
If you're that intimidated by burn, get Heal Bell support. With Choice Band they still hit hard enough to do a good amount of damage and, while they won't be sweeping anything anytime soon, Stone Edge rapes Ho-oh no matter how you slice it so you have effectively forced it to switch out, which I believe is the definition of a "counter" in this game? And what happens if it doesn't end up burning? Counting misses, there is a 47% chance of burn. Considering that, with Heal Bell, there isn't such a massive risk to switching into Ho-oh with Rhyperior or T-tar even if there is a burn, both of them are very reasonable counters to Ho-oh.
"Multiple Rapid Spinners" makes me lol as everyone here knows that such a thing will limit your team just so one pokemon can operate effectively, and that one pokemon takes tons of damage from one of the more popular attacks in the game, whether or not Sacred Fire succeeds in burning. It isn't like Rapid Spin is a surefire counter to Stealth Rock anyway as anybody who might be intimidated by two or more pokemon rapid spinning to cover for Ho-oh could just stick a ghost on their team. Not to mention the fact that Stealth Rock takes one turn to lay down.
Why are you basing part of your argument on an attack missing? If it doesn't miss, Ho-oh is gone. You're taking one hell of a risk by switching Ho-oh into Heracross unless you're damn sure what it's going to do.
>_> I think it's safe to assume that that likely would change if Ho-oh was brought into the standard metagame.
Simple as this:
Ho-oh in OU is risky but payoff great. (guess all Fire/Fly are that way)
Ho-oh in Uber is a good pokemon, but needs to be built around.
Speaking of OU and Uber,
D/P OU is looking alot like ADV Uber, the same pokemon being used again and again, and battles that are decided in 1 key turn.
Ho-oh in OU is risky but payoff great. (guess all Fire/Fly are that way)
Ho-oh in Uber is a good pokemon, but needs to be built around.
Speaking of OU and Uber,
D/P OU is looking alot like ADV Uber, the same pokemon being used again and again, and battles that are decided in 1 key turn.
We are not here to determine if it is fine in ubers, though. We are here to determine if it is fine in OU. Otherwise Tangrowth would be banned because it can take advantage of Drought. If Ho-oh works in the standard metagame, then it can be in the standard metagame. If it works in the Uber metagame, then it can also be in the Uber metagame. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
That's my biggest worry tbh. People are adamant about sending Tyranitar into ubers and Ho-Oh is an even bigger threat.
Do you even know what you're talking about? Your post is a treasure trove of flawed logic.
Assuming we're keepping the Uber tier simiilar to Adv, then Ho-oh belongs there, and for the same reason as Darkrai: fantastic stats, fantastic movepool, near impossible to reliably counter.
Did you....just compare HO-OH to TANGROWTH?
It's a good comparison; if Ho-oh is banned because it can work well in Ubers, then Tangrowth too should be banned for his ability to abuse Groudon's sunlight.
Although personally I don't think Ho-oh should be banned, and he probably deserves testing in OU. No matter what its movepool, its typing and low speed make it seem like an inferior version of Salamence.
Might I ask how it's an inferior Salamence? It has a higher Atk, much better SpDef, has a vastly different movepool and has a much better physical STAB attack than Dragon Claw could ever hope to be. It also is incapable of using Dragon Dance (thank god, how broken would that be?), which also sets it apart from Salamence.
No, its attack is LOWER than Salamence's. They have the same Special Attack, but where Ho-oh gets Thunderbolt and Calm Mind, Salamence gets Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor. Salamence is also faster, and gets Dragon Dance to support his cool physical movepool. All Ho-oh has over Salamence is a tiny bit of Defense and HP-oh, wait, Salamence gets Intimidate to make up for that. All Ho-oh actually has is more Special Defense and Sacred Fire. Oddly enough, though, Ho-oh doesn't get a physical Rock move.
EDIT: Okay, Ho-oh gets Overheat to match Salamence's Draco Meteor. The point still stands. though.
That's one massive assumption, and notice that everything you said applies to most standards. I would say Tyranitar has fantastic stats, a fantastic movepool, and he's near impossible to reliably counter. Metagross has fantastic stats, a fantastic movepool, and is near impossible to reliably counter. Salamence has... Azelf has... Garchomp has... Arguably, all of those Pokemon are just as good as Ho-oh or, at the very least, more similar to Ho-oh in usefulness than Ho-oh is to, say, Mewtwo. Why automatically assume Ho-oh is uber and that they are not?
Ever since someone in advance decided to give Tyranitar a Choice Band, "near impossible to reliably counter" has been what standard has been all about. Ho-oh being nearly impossible to counter isn't really even an issue unless we just want to ban all choice items so that it's possible to have reliable switch ins for everything again (which would actually hurt Ho-oh since he was relying on those for his most threatening sets too). The real question is whether he can fit into a balanced metagame, and if he does, then he should be allowed. Testing is really the only way to go about that, and I think we're reaching the point of arguing in circles.
Incidentally that 'more special defense' happens to put it only slightly under Deoxys-L well into the mid-400's in addition to its already Salamence like other stats.
I agree, AA, in that much of "standard" looks similar to Ho-oh now. To be honest, it was Sacred Fire alone that caused me to believe that it should be segregated, since there wasn't much in standard that could hazzard switching into it -- Flash Fire Pokemon, Starmie, Milotic and Altaria seem viable.
Anymore, I feel that the dramatic increase in power from Advance will either cause us to have very lax rules for standard, or a completely different set of rules and tiers will have to be hammered out. I'm for either right now. Regardless, Uber tier was created to separate the overpowered, and is likely to persist. What qualifies as ban-worthy anymore, however, is anyone's guess. For instance, should Dialga be allowed in OU?
Anymore, I feel that the dramatic increase in power from Advance will either cause us to have very lax rules for standard, or a completely different set of rules and tiers will have to be hammered out. I'm for either right now. Regardless, Uber tier was created to separate the overpowered, and is likely to persist. What qualifies as ban-worthy anymore, however, is anyone's guess. For instance, should Dialga be allowed in OU?
Just test it, see what happens. I am of the opinion that everything should be tested in standard at first, and then things banned as they become 'broken' - yes, this does include Groudon, Palkia, Kyogre, et cetera - for the simple reason that 'standard' is an uncentralised metagame with diversity - with the sheer number of Pokémon that could be considered 'uber' in D/P, it is possible that they would form an uncentralised metagame and that diverse standard teams could be made out of these. True, it is unlikely, but no-one can know until it has been tried. Of any of the proposed 'ubers', I think Ho-oh is the most likely to drop a tier, but this has already been argued extensively. It really needs some sort of testing before anyone can pass judgement.
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That is a terrible argument. Ho-oh with a team full of spinners is no different than Moltres with a team full of sunny day-ers, or Salamence with a team full of bulky water counters. Personally I think adding Ho-oh to OU play would likely only diversify the metagame, as it would add a totally unique team build to the mix.
Slaking's base stat totals are higher than that of Mew. Everyone of coure immediately responds "well if Slaking didn't have traunt it would have been uber" but who is to say where Tyranitar would have been if it didnt have all its weaknesses, or where Snorlax would have been if it had Starmie's speed? People have had a very one-sided view on pokemon and the metagame for far too long, and when I look at threads like the one discussing Double Team in the next generation it seems no one has any intention on changing.
Of course Ho-oh breaks the metagame. Most pokemon that aren't OU break the metagame, because thats how a metagame works. If I took a pokemon like say Misdreavus, which no one has counters for, I could eaily do quite a bit of damage. Why? Because Misdreavus, like a majority of other pokemon in the current generation, can easily run over any pokemon that isn't equipped to handle it. It is no different from Tyranitar or Pikachu.
If Ho-oh is allowed in OU play, it will break the metagame. And then a new metagame will form. If everyone agrees the metagame is an unfavorable one, then we can ban Ho-oh. Either way, life goes on. If we want DP to be a succesful generation, we have to embrace change, instead of locking it up and hiding it under the tier list.
Apparently you didn't pay attention to the post that I was replying to or something.
"IMO, it's just fine in ubers."
To me, this awfully feels like people are trying to say "oh dear, this pokemon can compete in ubers, it can't possibly work in standard." My point with Tangrowth was that, as COAlex explained, it works in ubers and also works in standard. We shouldn't be involving the uber tier in this debate in any way, shape, or form. We are here to decide whether or not Ho-oh should be allowed in the OU enviornment, period.
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