Is Ho-oh still an uber?

[EarthBender]

I personally believe that Ho-oh should not be considered an uber anymore.

Ho-oh's Uberlicious traits:

Pressure - which a lot of pokemon have

Physical Sacred Fire off super high Atk stat

680 Base Stat Total

Awesome Atk, SDef, and HP

Decent movepool including CM, Recover, T-Bolt, EQ, and Sacred Fire

That pretty much covers the uberness of Ho-oh. But these are big flaws in it:

50% Stealth Rock weakness. Almost every single team, as far as I can tell, has it, which means Ho-oh can't switch in very easily anymore.

The new addition of Stone Edge on everything and its brother kind of kills Ho-oh as well. The counter argument is that the burn from Sacred Fire weakens it, but a 100 BP 25% crit-hit and very commonly STAB (read:TTar) really puts a dent in the phoenix, even if it has only a 2x weak instead of a 4x.

Manaphy, as well as the old bulky waters. Bulky waters take its physical hits, and non-STABed T-Bolt doesn't do that much of even off a 110 base SAtk.

90 base speed isn't much at all. Lots of pokemon can outspeed it and put a huge dent in it.

Switching into it is like switching into any other physical sweeper; you need something like Rhyperior or a bulky water. IIRC it has the same attack as Salamence.

Fast Flash Fire pogeys like Rapidash and Arcanine (yes, they're UU/BL, but Ho-oh can bring them up to OU) will give it a fight with Stone Edge.


So that's my opinion. I would really love to here some opinions from other members of Smogon. :)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

"Decent Movepool" really does Ho-oh no justice. Its movepool makes Gengar look one-dimensional. It can do pretty much anything, and it has the stats to be able to run with all the decent moves it learns. Indeed, the "Mew factor" is probably the biggest argument for keeping him in uber. When you see Ho-oh, you have no clue at all what sort of set it will be running.

Ho-oh does indeed have some notable problems. Base 154 special defense is somewhat of a waste with that typing, and a 4X Stealth Rock weakness could really ruin its efforts to tank. The defenses are really just enough to ensure that you take a hit or two which would put it in average terrain defensively when you work all things out. That's not so great for someone who is maybe uber though I suppose if you were really clever you could really stretch Ho-oh's life out with Recover (just avoid all rock moves and dance successfully through a maze or Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock).

The real question then is whether Ho-oh is broken as a sweeper. That's a definate maybe. Base 130 attack is a lot really, and physical Sacred Fire is scary. It certainly has the movepool to run a flat out intimidating CB set. On the special side, it's also certainly above average with a hefty base 110 special attack and a big movepool just for fun. Hmm, when I put it like that, it sounds just like Lucario with a broader movepool, better defensive stats, and a substantially worse typing. They do have the same somewhat disappointing base speed.

I had fun with this thing in trying to assert that it was worse than Tyranitar in DP. As I really look at the two of them side by side, I think I was right, but then again, the whole "Tyranitar is uber" thing is really popular lately. I think it deserves a really serious consideration in the early DP metagame test, but it's really too early to call. It's a case of massive advantages paired with massive disadvantages, and in a truly undeveloped metagame that we really don't understand, we can't really say which side will matter more.

 

[Misty]

If Ho-oh were allowed, I could easily see teams being built around Donphan/Starmie/Heracross/Ho-oh. The objective is simple: keep Stealth Rock out of play and sweep with Ho-oh. Only Tyranitar really stops Ho-oh, everything else just collapses before Ho-oh's awesome movepool.

 

[Pneuma]

Luckily that shouldn't be the case as Ho-oh's stats and movepool keep it borderline uber. T-tar would go uber before Ho-oh would come down to OU and play. Stealth Rock is a burden but nothing that Ho-oh can't abuse. How about subbing down to a Salac/Leichi after a SR prediction? If Scyther can do it, Ho-oh SURE as hell can.

 

[Nicar]

Ho-oh is certainly lacking on the defensive side but the sheer size of that move pool and the offensive stats to back it up still makes it an Uber IMO. Not only this but I also feel that it would be really sad if a Pokémon once meant to be a top-tier Legendary fell to OU. Maybe not a valid argument but that's how I feel.

 

[original151]

honestly, i don't think ho-oh should be uber, and that is only because of a double weakness. he really is a monster with all of that attack, but when u look at his def. and speed (90) he really can have problems. he's slower than half the field, and his defense will never hold up against a rock slide. and tyranitar should not go uber either because of a double fighting weakness.

 

[Pneuma]

honestly, i don't think ho-oh should be uber, and that is only because of a double weakness.

Rayquaza would like a talk with you. He has base 95 Spd and I daresay more people carry Ice moves than Rock moves.

 

[Nicar]

Rayquaza, Salamence, Heracross, Tyranitar, Swampert, Garchomp...
I really don't see a 4x weakness stopping you from being great. Actually it seems like you NEED one to join the top-tier-club :]

 

[Forsety]

To be honest lets put this into retrospective.

If Ho-oh is non-00ber.

Charizard is instantly low end UU.

Every single weakness about Ho-oh is instantly applicable to Charizard.

 

[AJC]

Rayquaza, Salamence, Heracross, Tyranitar, Swampert, Garchomp...
I really don't see a 4x weakness stopping you from being great. Actually it seems like you NEED one to join the top-tier-club :]

Mostly because those poke 4x weakeness are rare and/or come from stuff thats slower and/or more fragile than them.

 

[original151]

yes, i didn't think about that. Ice is carried a lot.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I daresay more people carry Ice moves than Rock moves.

I'm not so sure about that. Rock is a really improved type in DP, and it was already quite good in RSE. It just might manage to pass up Ice as the influence of RSE fades. This is obviously a bit too early to say definitively, but when the STAB users of Rock have an automatic 1.5X special defense boost and the STAB users of Ice tend to be decidedly mediocre, you have to wonder.

 

[Slobroking]

I think Ho-oh is still uber but it's worse then Tyranitar

 

[Deck Knight]

OK, simple question kiddies: What can switch into Ho-oh and not die a horrible death/get raped by Sacred Fire's 50% Burn? That list is pretty short, since it includes basically every physical attacker, and any Guts user available is slower than it. If your answer is Milotic, Starmie, Vaporeon, or Suicune, you would be correct.

That is, unless Ho-oh predicts that and uses Thunderbolt or Calm Mind. Round out the set with Roost, which acts just like Recover except it allows Ho-oh to LOL at incoming Ice Beams and Thunderbolts.

Sacred Fire
Thunderbolt
Calm Mind
Roost

Tell me, can anything really not get raped horribly by that? Physical sweepers don't like the burn, most special sweepers hate Thunderbolts, CM'd or otherwise, and despite "not good typing," a 50% Recovery move that nuetralizes Thunderbolt and gives it resistace to Ice Beam is quite GG.

 

[Mekkah]

To be honest lets put this into retrospective.

If Ho-oh is non-00ber.

Charizard is instantly low end UU.

Every single weakness about Ho-oh is instantly applicable to Charizard.

Except Ho-oh has much better overall stats (especially Attack), he can sometimes Recover to shrug off Thunderbolts while Charizard gets OHKOed by some of them.

Don't get me wrong though, I think allowing Ho-oh wouldn't make as huge of a splash as some make it seem. A Choice Band set is really cool, until you factor in that Ho-oh will be at 44% immediatly if you factor in Sand Stream and Stealth Rock, has few switch-ins options (the first things that come to mind are Heatran, Weezing and Claydol) and, while he has arguably more unpredictability than Gengar, he still suffers from moveslot syndrome.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Mew is not that broken at all in Advance, and I would have proposed its unbanning in DP if it didn't get Scheme and Baton Pass. Four moveslots really limit it, and its first move in the match will usually give away the general way the set is going. If it doesn't the set tends to lose effectivity in the light of the EV/nature system. I believe Ho-oh has the same problem. It is pretty easy to bring in Milotic or Manaphy into it just to see what it does. Its most powerful STAB move on them would be Aerial Ace which isn't any more threatening than one coming from Salamence. Thunderbolt will damage them, sure, but it won't 2HKO Milotic just yet, and if it uses that you can be pretty sure it's a Special Attacker and bring in your Blissey, start spamming Toxic/Thunder Wave yadda yadda.

You could argue that Ho-oh limits the metagame a lot for some Pokemon because he requires a lot of coverage to counter, but the same could be said for a lot of standards (read: Tyranitar). I'm all for trying him out, because he seems fun to use. The mere fact that he gets completely owned by Stealth Rock (which also gives away whether has Leftovers or not) makes me want to try him out.

 

[chewy]

Deck and Misty nailed it, but I'll give my big thumbs down for Ho-oH in stardard. If it were introduced, you'd see half the teams out there with Ho-oH and rapid spin. (The other half would be sandstorm teams).

 

[EarthBender]

Rayquaza, Salamence, Heracross, Tyranitar, Swampert, Garchomp...
I really don't see a 4x weakness stopping you from being great. Actually it seems like you NEED one to join the top-tier-club :]

Flying, Fighting, and Grass aren't particularly common types though, and Quaza/Mence/Chomp can hit bulky waters hard with CB/CG attacks. Even though they are forced to switch, they aren't threatened by a 50% hit on the way back in, like Ho-oh is.

People say that Ho-oh + Rapid Spin teams will become common. Therefore, Dusclops2 will become popular, which in turn will increase the popularity of Shadow Ball Gengar (who doesn't care about Wisp), and so on. It's like the whole Skarmbliss->Boah->CBers thing in ADV.

 

[Footnote]

If you allow Ho-Oh in standard play, you have further cemented the necessity for Stealth Rock on every single team, thereby further reducing the variety of your battles (which is already hurting).

It doesn't matter that Ho-Oh can't switch into much. You can make it your starter. If you have to switch it out, just switch it in later when something else bites the dust.

 

[EarthBender]

Except Ho-oh has much better overall stats (especially Attack), he can sometimes Recover to shrug off Thunderbolts while Charizard gets OHKOed by some of them.

Don't get me wrong though, I think allowing Ho-oh wouldn't make as huge of a splash as some make it seem. A Choice Band set is really cool, until you factor in that Ho-oh will be at 44% immediatly if you factor in Sand Stream and Stealth Rock, has few switch-ins options (the first things that come to mind are Heatran, Weezing and Claydol) and, while he has arguably more unpredictability than Gengar, he still suffers from moveslot syndrome.

I agree.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Mew is not that broken at all in Advance, and I would have proposed its unbanning in DP if it didn't get Scheme and Baton Pass. Four moveslots really limit it, and its first move in the match will usually give away the general way the set is going. If it doesn't the set tends to lose effectivity in the light of the EV/nature system. I believe Ho-oh has the same problem. It is pretty easy to bring in Milotic or Manaphy into it just to see what it does. Its most powerful STAB move on them would be Aerial Ace which isn't any more threatening than one coming from Salamence. Thunderbolt will damage them, sure, but it won't 2HKO Milotic just yet, and if it uses that you can be pretty sure it's a Special Attacker and bring in your Blissey, start spamming Toxic/Thunder Wave yadda yadda.

IMO Mew should be allowed too, even with SchemePassing. Milotic is an awesome counter, with base 125 SDef and the fact that Sacred Fire's butn will make it quite the defensive wall as well.

 

[EarthBender]

If you allow Ho-Oh in standard play, you have further cemented the necessity for Stealth Rock on every single team, thereby further reducing the variety of your battles (which is already hurting).

It doesn't matter that Ho-Oh can't switch into much. You can make it your starter. If you have to switch it out, just switch it in later when something else bites the dust.

Ho-oh has 90 base speed. Most people either make their starters speed demons (Hydro Pump Mence, Stone Edge Infernape) or stallish PHazing Stealth Rock users (Pert, Hippowdon).

Sorry for the double post. I don't know how to edit with quotes from two different people.

 

[Great Sage]

If Ho-oh were allowed, I could easily see teams being built around Donphan/Starmie/Heracross/Ho-oh. The objective is simple: keep Stealth Rock out of play and sweep with Ho-oh. Only Tyranitar really stops Ho-oh, everything else just collapses before Ho-oh's awesome movepool.

Earthquake and Sacred Fire burn are sufficient to make Tyranitar at least think twice about switching in.

 

[Mekkah]

If you allow Ho-Oh in standard play, you have further cemented the necessity for Stealth Rock on every single team, thereby further reducing the variety of your battles (which is already hurting).

Stealth Rock is lame and sort of borked anyway. If you're not laying down Stealth Rock you're going to have to beware of Moltres as well, and they help a lot to keep Zapdos, Salamence, Aerodactyl and Gyados at bay. It's too early to claim anything, but from what I've heard Stealth Rock is really, really popular already anyway.

It doesn't matter that Ho-Oh can't switch into much. You can make it your starter. If you have to switch it out, just switch it in later when something else bites the dust.

It does matter that you can't switch it in much, because if it cannot switch in much it's dead weight to your team by sitting on the safe bench. Leading with Ho-oh will get you Intimidated or owned by Tyranitar. And again, every time you bring in Ho-oh it will probably lose a bunch of HP at once.

If it were introduced, you'd see half the teams out there with Ho-oH and rapid spin. (The other half would be sandstorm teams).

It seems that people are trying to push Tyranitar into the uber team, and that Hippo is one of the only viable counters to Tyranitar. I think that should give you an idea of how common Sandstorm will be anyway, regardless of Ho-oh. Also, Rapid Spin won't be able to keep up with Stealth Rock.

 

[Bliksem]

OK, simple question kiddies: What can switch into Ho-oh and not die a horrible death/get raped by Sacred Fire's 50% Burn? That list is pretty short, since it includes basically every physical attacker, and any Guts user available is slower than it. If your answer is Milotic, Starmie, Vaporeon, or Suicune, you would be correct.

That is, unless Ho-oh predicts that and uses Thunderbolt or Calm Mind. Round out the set with Roost, which acts just like Recover except it allows Ho-oh to LOL at incoming Ice Beams and Thunderbolts.

Sacred Fire
Thunderbolt
Calm Mind
Roost

Tell me, can anything really not get raped horribly by that? Physical sweepers don't like the burn, most special sweepers hate Thunderbolts, CM'd or otherwise, and despite "not good typing," a 50% Recovery move that nuetralizes Thunderbolt and gives it resistace to Ice Beam is quite GG.

A Garchomp with Lum Berry and Stone Edge (not a specialized counter, just a variation of the standard set) would obliterate that Ho-Oh, resisting all moves and getting basically a free SD out of it.

 

[lilyhollow]

I like the idea of putting Ho-oh in standard, or at least trying him out. As Mekkah explained, you'll generally need just one pokemon to be able to reliably switch into him and figure out what set he's running, and from there he shouldn't be that hard to deal with, especially when you consider that things like Tyranitar are already running around in standard play (and really, I doubt we'll be seeing T-tar banned, but whatever) that almost completely require counters on a team for it to stand a chance. If you ask me, Ho-oh couldn't possibly be worse for us than Tyranitar.

 

[Hippo]

Stats and moves would be really nice here...

If you allow Ho-Oh in standard play, you have further cemented the necessity for Stealth Rock on every single team, thereby further reducing the variety of your battles (which is already hurting).

It doesn't matter that Ho-Oh can't switch into much. You can make it your starter. If you have to switch it out, just switch it in later when something else bites the dust.

Yeah, you just start him. Maybe hes not uber fast, but with his incredible special defense, he can take a hit from Gengar, then return a KO, with a STAB physical Sacred Fire. (Well, i don't see how it can not ko him)

TTar can maybe stand up to him, for a turn or two, but after that, hes a goner unless he can hit a stealth rock and avoid the burn.

And if your team NEEDS TTar to stop HoHo, we see even less veriety in it.

Hoho is too good. Maybe his typing isn't that great, but with support (Weather Changer + Rapid spinner maybe? Sunny Day Sacred Fire? :() he would be crazy.