Why would you, though? Special Ape sacks wallbreaking for all out sweeping which is largely outclassed, NP Ape can't afford to remove Vaccuum Wave over Grass Knot/HP Ice because it will get walled by literally anything that resists fire and not weak to fighting, not to mention that you generally set up on the turn said check/counter exists so you're still kind of screwed. Mach Punch is just overall better because it let's mix ape check threats like Greninja, TTar, Mega Gyarados, etc. because of how much more EV's mix ape needs on attack (and iron fist boost is nice) and just gives him a niche rather than a "way riskier version of Keldeo."
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Pokémon Infernape
- Thread starter Haze Milotic
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The anti-lead set from a while back was a real killer to sashed pokemon.
Infernape
Item: Sash
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 SpA, 252 Spd
- Fake Out (This breaks sashes, and has no other use in this set.)
- Stealth Rock (As a lead and access to Stealth Rock, Infernape can be a good entry hazard pokemon.)
- Overheat (Strong move to finish off Ferrothorn without taking Iron barbs recoil, and breaking your own sash)
- Close Combat (Counter against Smeargle, and good STAB move)
If this was mentioned in the thread, I apologize, I did not read the whole thing.
Infernape
Item: Sash
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 SpA, 252 Spd
- Fake Out (This breaks sashes, and has no other use in this set.)
- Stealth Rock (As a lead and access to Stealth Rock, Infernape can be a good entry hazard pokemon.)
- Overheat (Strong move to finish off Ferrothorn without taking Iron barbs recoil, and breaking your own sash)
- Close Combat (Counter against Smeargle, and good STAB move)
If this was mentioned in the thread, I apologize, I did not read the whole thing.
The set I use has a nice sweeping niche on my team as a pure physical no-band/orb-needed singles partner to my Porygon-Z. With Pory covering everything on the special side of things, Ape is free to go full physical and focus his damage on that side. With having all his attacks physical(/special if he has a phys partner), that makes using SD(/NP) not a total waste of time or two moveslots. So here's the set: Infernape
EV's: (Could use optimizing) 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4HP
Nature: (Don't remember the name) +Spe, -SpAtk
Item: (Would like to change. Don't know what to change to) Muscle Band(no side effects, boosts everything phys)
Moves: Mach Punch, CC, SD, and Fire Punch
How it works: Send him in, SD when you can, and sweep. Pretty simple. Use special partner as needed. Also, any KS Aegislash gets totally pwned with a little prediction.
Edit: the reason for max speed instead of damage is because he can boost his damage but not his speed, and I want him to be able to outspeed as much as possible, then OHKO. If he doesn't do enough damage to OHKO, I can always boost with SD. If he doesn't outspeed, there's nothing I can do.
EV's: (Could use optimizing) 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4HP
Nature: (Don't remember the name) +Spe, -SpAtk
Item: (Would like to change. Don't know what to change to) Muscle Band(no side effects, boosts everything phys)
Moves: Mach Punch, CC, SD, and Fire Punch
How it works: Send him in, SD when you can, and sweep. Pretty simple. Use special partner as needed. Also, any KS Aegislash gets totally pwned with a little prediction.
Edit: the reason for max speed instead of damage is because he can boost his damage but not his speed, and I want him to be able to outspeed as much as possible, then OHKO. If he doesn't do enough damage to OHKO, I can always boost with SD. If he doesn't outspeed, there's nothing I can do.
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Problem with this is that this set fails to kill anything relevant that MixApe could do already, and especially with Muscle Band you are vastly overestimating how much +2 on Infernape actually matters. ANYTHING that is decently tanky and isn't weak to his stabs will take a hit and flat out kill you. You have to risk a turn to actually use SD and once you get in and realize "oh shit I can't kill this dude" you either go all in and sack yourself or switch and sack your momentum because congrats you wasted a turn. SD Ape stops nothing Mix Ape can't already beat and there is just no reason to use SD Ape.
I believe you are missing the, "When you can" bit. If you only +2, and only give yourself a chance to kill everything, even with max damage investment, then you are wasting your time. If they send in something to stall you before they realize you have SD phys Ape and not MixApe, then why not go for +4 or even +6? If they go for an offensive counter, like Keldeo or maybe Starmie, then switch out, because it's the only logical option. Even a LO +2 most anything doesn't quite kill everything you throw it up against. But spend just one turn investing in that extra SD, maybe two turns, and as long as you outspeed them, you can kill them no problemo. What's worth more? 4.9x damage and 10% max HP recoil, or 4.4x damage and no recoil? That's the reason I skipped the LO or band. Band would nullify SD, and with LO your HP gets chipped away to the easy OHKO range for anything too soon, not to mention it's a paltry difference.
I seriously cannot think of ANYTHING switch in's that somebody decent would bring in on MixApe and not on SD that is meta relevant, actually I can think of more. Azumarill Talonflame Gliscor Landorus-T etc.. who would just switch in and take a hit and kill you or flat out outspeed you, making your entire point moot. You're Infernape you don't stay in and sweep unless they are really low/Infernape weak you utilize your versatile coverage and your mixed prowess by making sure you don't get anybody switching out on you and you fuck anybody up. Infernape is NOT a set up sweeper and it annoys me that he is being considered as one. If you want one, go play someone with powerful priority like mega pinsir or with enough bulk to take a hit and sweep like DD Zard-X.
And get predicted as easily as one might a child? No... I think your idea of optimizing everything being the best course of action makes it far too easy to predict you. If I see a, for example, Mega Zard Y come in, I can correctly predict it's every move thoughtlessly, and counter with my own. And as such, by optimizing yourself to have minimal weaknesses, you leave yourself your greatest weakness... being unable to do anything unpredictable. You optimize your team to take out everything possible. I put my team slightly below optimal on purpose, so that I have the element of surprise, which is far greater than the amount of power I lost when I didn't do what everyone else did, and go for what's best. Mine aren't as good, true. But yours are only so slightly better to the point that making yourself completely predictable is simply not worth it. From what I've heard from you, if you went into battle, and the other person had Ape, you would automatically assume that they have MixApe simply because it is better. However, if it isn't, as soon as you make that assumption... then that's when you've lost yourself a poke. That's why optimal isn't always optimal. You have to take predictability into account of how good a set is, and you simply don't. How much more predictable is MixApe then phys set up Ape, and yet, in practicality, how much better is it really? Everyone on this thread talks almost reverently about MixApe, and instantly says no to pure phys or special. So if someone else that I play has Ape, I assume it's a MixApe, and act accordingly. But if someone came at me with another form of Ape, I'd be extremely surprised, because of everyones insistence on MixApe. Even the smartest, most learned, toughest computer can be beaten by a simple irrational move. And you play like a computer. You make the most logical choice every time. And that's where I beat you. Because I, unlike you, realize that the most logical choice isn't always the most logical. Basically, my point is that you shouldn't discount a set just because there is a better one. That's why I didn't go with MixApe. Because then I would get seen coming a mile away. And you know what? As soon as people see I have Fire Punch, they send out KS Aegislash if they have it.
....Zard-Y can go mixed which is used to fuck Heatran and Chansey/Blissey. Who cares about predictability when you can sweep the enemy team anyways?
Fire Punch isn't used on Mix Ape, and is basically on CB. You still haven't told me what will send in on MixApe that doesn't get screwed over by SD harder. Mix Ape already clean 2hko's or even 1hko's the majority of switch-ins anyways Also, Aegislash can take a Fire Punch pre -2 so it can just flat out kill you. Not trying to be so rude, but what is making that hard to understand?
If you really want to use a physical Ape, which IMO only is notable with Zard-Y, CB FAR OUTCLASSES SD, as it can actually do shit to different threats like Mega Venusaur who is 2hko'd by CB Flare Blitz (if you're going to bring up Aegislash, Infernape at sun with -2 will OHKO Aegislash with Flare Blitz) or for scouting via U-Turn but that's it.
Fire Punch isn't used on Mix Ape, and is basically on CB. You still haven't told me what will send in on MixApe that doesn't get screwed over by SD harder. Mix Ape already clean 2hko's or even 1hko's the majority of switch-ins anyways Also, Aegislash can take a Fire Punch pre -2 so it can just flat out kill you. Not trying to be so rude, but what is making that hard to understand?
If you really want to use a physical Ape, which IMO only is notable with Zard-Y, CB FAR OUTCLASSES SD, as it can actually do shit to different threats like Mega Venusaur who is 2hko'd by CB Flare Blitz (if you're going to bring up Aegislash, Infernape at sun with -2 will OHKO Aegislash with Flare Blitz) or for scouting via U-Turn but that's it.
Special attacking set is effective, yet rarely seen.
You are just not getting the whole, "SD gives a bigger boost than CB, and doesn't choice lock you, for the price of one turn," thing are you? In fact, SD gives you twice the boost that CB gives you. And that one extra turn it takes? That one turn is just as long as it takes to switch out because you can't use a the appropriate move. And if you aren't choice-locked, you can SD on the switch-in to the predicted same move as last time, or the predicted switch. Either way = good things. Unless they pull out something like Talonflame, in which case you better do some predicting of your own. Here you go.
+2 252 Atk Muscle Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 244-288 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So hit him on the switch with a +2 CC and a Stealth Rock up. Not that hard. I'll post more calcs later comparing MixApe vs threats and SD Ape vs threats.
Btw, doing calcs is a pain in the *** from an ipod. That's why I'm doing it later.
Edit: Not a comparison calc. That was a prediction calc.
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Dude, why the hell are you using Muscle Band?
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 289-339 (96.9 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
And they're not going to let you set up, they switch in their Talonflame the same turn you Swords Dance up.
For the Muscle Band, I believe I went over this previously. As for them switching in Talonflame the turn I SD, I didn't mean to imply that Ape would go first. I meant that if you already had the +2 it would be easy to predict the switch and KO Talonflame before he got anywhere. Considering that you have SR of course, which is pretty standard for me.
Edit: If I had Ape out in ANY form, and couldn't KO Talonflame on the switch, I would absolutely NOT stay in. That's why if there is a threat to Ape, get the SD's up when you can, so you can KO on the switch.
I haven't bothered to read the argument just the post above mine u.u. And what you're not getting is that they won't let you reach +2, no player in their right mind will not switch their Talonflame into Infernape instantly. You want this scenario:
Bring Infernape into Deoxys
Swords Dance on Deoxys while it sets up
Close Combat as Deoxys switches to Talonflame
But no smart player will let this happen, it will go like this:
Bring Infernape into Deoxys
Swords Dance on Deoxys while it switches to Talonflame
Either a.) die or b.) switch
SD > Do massive damage but not OHKO while dying
Switch in > Live and kill Infernape
Turn 1 > turn 2
CB cleanly 2HKOs. Hopefully you understand basic logic.
The_Derpy_Chicken
CB has immediate power, which is the most important thing. SD boost is 1.33x stronger then CB, not enough to OHKO something like MVenusaur, while CB 2HKOs. Difference being, CB can afford to 2HKO as it damages on switches, SD can not.
Switch in > Live and kill Infernape
Turn 1 > turn 2
CB cleanly 2HKOs. Hopefully you understand basic logic.
The_Derpy_Chicken
CB has immediate power, which is the most important thing. SD boost is 1.33x stronger then CB, not enough to OHKO something like MVenusaur, while CB 2HKOs. Difference being, CB can afford to 2HKO as it damages on switches, SD can not.
You say that no player in their right mind will let you get a +2. But what if they don't know you have SD? What if they thought that you, like every other player, were using MixApe or CB Ape? Then they make a misprediction, and you get a free or nearly free SD. That's why in almost every match I've played with SD Ape, I was able to get off a SD. Sometimes, if the other team is weak to Ape, (not good teams basically,) then I can even get off two SD's. That's why predictability matters.
Edit: Btw, dbzmariogeno, if CB is a two hit KO, you still lose
Edit: Btw, dbzmariogeno, if CB is a two hit KO, you still lose
Then they switch their Talonflame into it and it dies after it has SD'ed? It can't switch in, but no Talonflame player in their right minds will let SR stay on the field if it is switching in, so it will kill itself and you, so you both lose 1v1 by using Muscle Band.
or Sword dance on Deoxys and get 1HKO by Psycho boost.
My point is to get the SD up before the switch. If you don't, then you switch. And anyway, CB doesn't kill Talonflame on the switch either. Also, you say they will make sure to get SR off the field, correct? Two things. Maybe they don't have a way to get rid of SR by that point in the battle. Or, if they do, Ape will easily survive a RS, giving you two free SD's
Edit: The two free SD's come when they switch their spinner/defogger in, and when they actually perform RS/Defog. However, if you use LO, you might put yourself into the KO range RS+Volt Switch/U-turn.
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CB CC can't KO Talonflame but CB/LO Thunder Punch can. Also the majority of defoggers beat ape anyways minus Skarm and Mandibuzz and Skarm actually can go all kamikaze on Ape anyways if you set up on that turn without rocks. Irrelevant.
I can't say this any other way, SD Infernape is outclassed by both Mix andCB. Ape is a pick axe not a sledgehammer, you use your coverage and decent power to 2HKO/OHKO anybody who gets sent in with prediction. Not a shitty mega pinsir. Hell I'd rather have SD Lucario as it can do every scenario SD Infernape but better as it has better sweeping priority and has a better matchup over common defoggers like Latios as well as being able to beat other priority users like Mega Pinsir.
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The_Derpy_Chicken SD is garbage because its so easily revenged. I don't care if the boost is higher if I'm not getting off a single hit. CB Ape hits switches hard, SD loses to Pokemon like Talonflame regardless of it has boosted. Why do you not understand this?
If you wouldn't mind, could you post PS Replays in which SD Infernape is used to a degree of success against a solid opponent in which MixApe would not be able to do the same or better given the situation? We would all be willing to accept your argument as a valid point if you could prove your point across with evidence. As it stands MixApe and CB are the most viable sets to offer, allowing it to take advantage of the immediate power boosts and gain momentum with U-Turn should a counter be switched in.
Please separate that last post into paragraphs it looks like the Great Wall of china.
You STILL fail to get that SD Infernape wouldn't OHKO while CB/MixApe will 2HKO in two turns on a switch-in, so CB Ape does more damage. Speed isn't shit when you die to this priority meta when you have Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, Thundurus (T-Wave is a bitch), Dragonite, and even Deoxys-S will just wreck you before you do anything.
Also I'm pretty sure you just said MixApe can be done better by other Pokemon and that is just BS. LO Keldeo is the closest to that and even he has problems with people like Mega Venusaur, has no reliable way to beat Azumarill on the switch, doesn't have priority to pick off stragglers like lower health Greninja's, Gyarados, DD mega TTar, and anything low tbh.
SD Infernape is not using Infernape to his fullest potential at all and you can look at what everyone else has said to see why.
You STILL fail to get that SD Infernape wouldn't OHKO while CB/MixApe will 2HKO in two turns on a switch-in, so CB Ape does more damage. Speed isn't shit when you die to this priority meta when you have Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, Thundurus (T-Wave is a bitch), Dragonite, and even Deoxys-S will just wreck you before you do anything.
Also I'm pretty sure you just said MixApe can be done better by other Pokemon and that is just BS. LO Keldeo is the closest to that and even he has problems with people like Mega Venusaur, has no reliable way to beat Azumarill on the switch, doesn't have priority to pick off stragglers like lower health Greninja's, Gyarados, DD mega TTar, and anything low tbh.
SD Infernape is not using Infernape to his fullest potential at all and you can look at what everyone else has said to see why.
Welp. I deleted the post. In actuality, it was mostly poking fun at the way you guys seem to think that I think, if you didn't catch what I meant. It hardly had anything relevant on it, it was mostly rant about you failing to see logic which, upon rereading the post, I realize some of the logic doesn't actually work the way I intended it. Anyway... to each his own. I'm just tired of hearing, "So I came up with this great MixApe set that looks just like every other MixApe set, it works great but I was wondering...(insert tiny almost completely inconsequetnial question about EV distribution)" It just gets really old seeing those posts, and perhaps my judgement is ever so slightly biased since this was my first starter... but that's pretty much impossible, right?
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