Icy Wind + Helping Hand = Doubles Victory

SilverSable

I haven't posted a team before, but I would like to share my doubles team that has brought me reasonable success and hopefully will continue to in the future. It is unfortunate that Shoddy does not have a doubles system, but because there are no rumors of it now, I don't mind sharing my team. For several of my pokemon, I use moves from the 3rd Generation tutors for the surprise element.

[----------------------]My Favourite Staters[----------------------]

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Vaporeon@Leftovers
Calm Nature - [for an added Sp Def boost]
Water Absorb
190 HP + 252 Def + 68 Sp Att
(Icy Wind)
(Helping Hand)
(HP Electric/Hydro Pump)
(Wish)

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Typhlosion@Power Herb
Modest Nature
Blaze
6 HP + 252 Sp Att + 252 Speed
(Protect)
(Eruption)
(Solar Beam)
(Overheat)

These are my babies. I use them as my leading pair for almost every battle. Everyone is ready to cream Typhlosion on the first turn, but of course, I have an early game Ace-in-the-Hole. That ploy is Icy Wind - the greatest asset of a Double battle team who simply needs a little more in the speed department. After turn one, Typhlosion lets lose a HH-boosted Eruption and reduces the opponents to ash. If anything remains, Vaporeon can mop it up with HP Electric or Typhlosion can unleash a 1-turn Solar Beam on bulky waters. Overheat is just in case Typhlosion survives an attack that activates Blaze.

Not much gets past this setup and if it does, there are four more pokemon to pick up the loose ends! :)


[----------------------]Fun with Discharge[----------------------]

rhyperior.png

Rhyperior@Enigma Berry/Leftovers
Impish Nature
Lightningrod/Solid Rock
252 HP + 6 Att + 252 Def
(Helping Hand)
(Protect)
(Stone Edge)
(Earthquake)

zapdos.gif

Zapdos@Leftovers
Timid Nature
Pressure
6 HP + 252 Sp Att + 252 Speed
(Discharge)
(HP Ice)
(Light Screen)
(Roost)

Rhyperior is actually conceptual at the moment - keep this in mind. However, both of these pokemon fit nicely into its fainted partner's place. Rhyperior can boost attacks with HH, while drawing electric attacks away from Vaporeon. Zapdos can provide team support, while getting rid of dragons.

The beauty of this set is when they work together. Discharge hits every pokemon on the field, but Rhyperior draws other electric attacks away from Zapdos. Zapdos provides a Sp Def boost to keep Rhyperior alive and Rhyperior can Protect if it sees an imminent threat.

I have been experimenting with the Enigma Berry and i find that it works quite well on a Pokemon with so many weaknesses. It takes a hit, Protects while Zapdos has another chance to Paralyze, and then unleashes a Stone Edge as it is healed by a super-effective move.

[----------------------]The Cleaning Crew[----------------------]

Flygon.png

Flygon@Yache Berry
Jolly Nature
Levitate
6 HP + 252 Att + 252 Speed
(Screech)
(Rock Slide)
(U-Turn)
(Earthquake)

snorlax.gif

Snorlax@Leftovers
Brave Nature
Thick Fat
170 HP + 120 Def +220 Sp Def
(Curse)
(Body Slam)
(Crunch)
(Protect)

Thank you, sexyalejandro for this set. Flygon also works well with Zapdos' Discharge or Rhyperior's Earthquake.

Snorlax has the typical Curselax set that provides coverage against ghosts. He comes in late-game and is also my Trick Room counter.

That is my team. Let me know what you think of it.​

On a side note: Occasionally I have used a Scarfed Glalie instead of Vaporeon as a lead. This way, opponents who have played me before will not be able to Fake Out the Icy Wind set up (due to Inner Focus). However, Vaporeon is generally more useful and versatile.​
 
Oh, do I love it when people post doubles teams! Let me see what I can do, although I admit I really can't think straight at the moment...

Your lead looks pretty interesting, but I have to wonder what bulky water leads you plan to kill with Solar Beam on Typhlosion and how dangerous they really are to the team, because honestly, I don't like the idea of Power Herb on Typhlosion simply for that; it only works for one turn and if you screw up you've ruined your chances. Besides, bulky waters like Swampert don't see too much play in doubles, you can't kill a BulkyDos even with a HH Solarbeam, and pokemon like Kingdra and Ludicolo will just set up rain dance and start surfing you in the face. I'd really just rather equip Typhlosion with either Leftovers, Wise Glasses, or, if you feel particularly daring and don't mind losing Protect, Choice Scarf, remove Solarbeam for either HP Ice or Focus Blast, and leave the Grass moves to something else. Your lead doesn't stop Trick Room, but with Rhyperior and Snorlax on the team, I don't think you'll be too bad for it.

I've never seen a Helping Hand Rhyperior before, but it seems like an interesting concept. Only thing I will say, though, is consider changing your EV spread to 252 HP + 252 Atk +6 Def--the Swords Dance spread--changing the nature to Brave, and changing the ability to Solid Rock for three reasons: 1. changing the EVs and nature will really help you against Trick Room teams, 2. Lightningrod is not a great ability on here since you've actually only have one pokemon weak to electricity and Lightningrod would draw Vaporeon's HP Electric (one of the pokes you planned on pairing it with), and 3. Solid Rock will help you survive moves by weakening the blow. Don't forget you've Zapdos's Light Screen backing it up. Oh, and if you like, you could consider changing Stone Edge to Rock Slide; the BP is crap (only 56), but Rhyperior gets STAB, has killer attack, and it hits both opponents. Your low speed would prevent you from abusing the flinch rate, though, so it's really a matter of personal preference.

I really like what you've done with Zapdos, and Light Screen will lessen the blow of Discharge on your own team. That works well with Rhyperior, Flygon, and Snorlax given high Sp. Def, immunity, or low speed to begin with. However, with Vaporeon you threaten SE damage and 2HKO if you attempt HH Discharge without Light Screen (it does 30.80% - 36.38% with Helping Hand and Light Screen) and Typhlosion is screwed regardless, given it will reduce the power of Eruption and threaten to paralyze him, making him useless. Consider this carefully.

Your Flygon, however...well, to be quite honest, I don't like it at all. I acknowledge it does have the advantage of avoiding all damage during Dig thanks to Levitate, but the moveset doesn't quite catch me. For one, stalling as it's done in singles doesn't work as well in doubles given the faster pace, so Toxic probably won't be as helpful as you like (but by no means useless, as I've seen for myself). Feint is also questionable, given its low Atk and extremely high risk--if you mispredict, you do nothing, and it's not like every team is Protect-happy. If it works for you, then keep it, but if not, I'd suggest changing it to the Life Orb set, although you can keep Dig if you wish.

Snorlax is slow as molasses anyway, tying with Slowking and Slowbro and only being beaten out by Shuckle and Torkoal in Trick Room IIRC, so Curse may not be totally necessary for countering said teams. If you've found that you've indeed time to set this beast up in DP doubles--he is quite a sturdy pokemon--then by all means use this set, but I'd consider the Choice Band set (without Choice Band, of course!).

One problem I see with this team is Hail teams--you've three Blizzard weaks and only Typhlosion can reliably kill such teams dead--but Light Screen should help with that. Other than that, I think you've covered things well. I'll take a look at this again later when my brain is working better.
 
StarmanXL said:
Oh, do I love it when people post doubles teams! Let me see what I can do, although I admit I really can't think straight at the moment...

Your lead looks pretty interesting, but I have to wonder what bulky water leads you plan to kill with Solar Beam on Typhlosion and how dangerous they really are to the team, because honestly, I don't like the idea of Power Herb on Typhlosion simply for that; it only works for one turn and if you screw up you've ruined your chances. Besides, bulky waters like Swampert don't see too much play in doubles, you can't kill a BulkyDos even with a HH Solarbeam, and pokemon like Kingdra and Ludicolo will just set up rain dance and start surfing you in the face. I'd really just rather equip Typhlosion with either Leftovers, Wise Glasses, or, if you feel particularly daring and don't mind losing Protect, Choice Scarf, remove Solarbeam for either HP Ice or Focus Blast, and leave the Grass moves to something else. Your lead doesn't stop Trick Room, but with Rhyperior and Snorlax on the team, I don't think you'll be too bad for it.

I've never seen a Helping Hand Rhyperior before, but it seems like an interesting concept. Only thing I will say, though, is consider changing your EV spread to 252 HP + 252 Atk +6 Def--the Swords Dance spread--changing the nature to Brave, and changing the ability to Solid Rock for three reasons: 1. changing the EVs and nature will really help you against Trick Room teams, 2. Lightningrod is not a great ability on here since you've actually only have one pokemon weak to electricity and Lightningrod would draw Vaporeon's HP Electric (one of the pokes you planned on pairing it with), and 3. Solid Rock will help you survive moves by weakening the blow. Don't forget you've Zapdos's Light Screen backing it up. Oh, and if you like, you could consider changing Stone Edge to Rock Slide; the BP is crap (only 56), but Rhyperior gets STAB, has killer attack, and it hits both opponents. Your low speed would prevent you from abusing the flinch rate, though, so it's really a matter of personal preference.

I really like what you've done with Zapdos, and Light Screen will lessen the blow of Discharge on your own team. That works well with Rhyperior, Flygon, and Snorlax given high Sp. Def, immunity, or low speed to begin with. However, with Vaporeon you threaten SE damage and 2HKO if you attempt HH Discharge without Light Screen (it does 30.80% - 36.38% with Helping Hand and Light Screen) and Typhlosion is screwed regardless, given it will reduce the power of Eruption and threaten to paralyze him, making him useless. Consider this carefully.

Your Flygon, however...well, to be quite honest, I don't like it at all. I acknowledge it does have the advantage of avoiding all damage during Dig thanks to Levitate, but the moveset doesn't quite catch me. For one, stalling as it's done in singles doesn't work as well in doubles given the faster pace, so Toxic probably won't be as helpful as you like (but by no means useless, as I've seen for myself). Feint is also questionable, given its low Atk and extremely high risk--if you mispredict, you do nothing, and it's not like every team is Protect-happy. If it works for you, then keep it, but if not, I'd suggest changing it to the Life Orb set, although you can keep Dig if you wish.

Snorlax is slow as molasses anyway, tying with Slowking and Slowbro and only being beaten out by Shuckle and Torkoal in Trick Room IIRC, so Curse may not be totally necessary for countering said teams. If you've found that you've indeed time to set this beast up in DP doubles--he is quite a sturdy pokemon--then by all means use this set, but I'd consider the Choice Band set (without Choice Band, of course!).

One problem I see with this team is Hail teams--you've three Blizzard weaks and only Typhlosion can reliably kill such teams dead--but Light Screen should help with that. Other than that, I think you've covered things well. I'll take a look at this again later when my brain is working better.
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You raise several good points here.

My Power Herb on Typhlosion is mainly for surprise. I actually see a lot of Swamperts in 2v2. However, I will consider re-breeding for a HP. Wise Glasses would look nice here.

Like I said, Rhyperior is conceptual at the moment. I didn't realize that Lightningrod draws HP Electric - that is good to know! I'm thinking of either changing my team around to reap the benefits of Lightningrod. Maybe add some more waters in place of Flygon.

I have to agree with you about Flygon. If one member of this team has to go, it would be him. I'm open to suggestions here - I was trying to get a pokemon immune to EQ and Discharge.

Hail teams are not usually an issue. Most leads are slower pokemon that Typhlosion can take out on turn 1. Infernape appears on a lot of Hail teams, so I'm thinking about giving Vaporeon back its Hydro Pump.

Thank you for the advice.
 
Ah, the dreaded Vaporeon/Typhlosion combo. I definitely fell prey to this the first time I encountered it. Starman, I have to disagree about using Choice Scarf on the Typhlosion. The whole point of this combo is that your opponent will assume Scarf and try to Fake Out the Typhlosion on turn one while you Icy Wind both opponents down to a Speed lower than Typhlosion's. This also eliminates their Focus Sash(es). Without Protect, the combo fails.

I also like Power Herb/SolarBeam. For what it's worth, it worked against me. After turn one of the battle I mentioned, I tried to bring in my Politoed to take the Eruption. Big mistake. One SolarBeam and it was gone. Granted, I now carry Protect on my Politoed for just this reason. You see my point, though. Although it's true that many of the most popular Water-types aren't weak to Grass, you do hit Ground and Rock-types as well.

Your Flygon does seem to lack power. It's not really taking advantage of its best stats. If you find you're getting good usage out of Feint, then maybe you want to keep it around. Your only other choices for Pokemon that are immune to both Earthquake and Discharge are Claydol and Shedinja.

Well, that's all I can think of for now. Hopefully I'll have time later to take another look at it.
 
I agree with the Rhyperior suggested above, you need Solid Rock.

As for Flygon, it has so much potential and it doesnt need to go.

You can try

Flygon @ LifeOrb
Adamant/Jolly - Levitate

- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Claw
- U-Turn /Roost/ Screech

I personally run it with Screech. Screech does two things for Flygon, and a lot for your team. A single screech lowers the oppoents defences by 2, gives Flygon a BIGGER advantage to kill with LifeOrbed HH-boosted STABbed EQ's and forces A LOT of switches giving you team a free turn to set up. U-Turn for scouting attacks and Roost to recover without suffereing from "landing" as it levitates. You can also try substitute with screech to make flygon dangerous and unpredictable. Quick attack is always a good option too.

If you run Flygon with Zapdos, you can use Discharge and Screech together. Opponents will be paralized and crippled (lowered Def) and now the upper hand, weather they stay or run... Flygon can fire STAB EQ's and DC's really hard, while Zapdos Lightscreens and or continues to fire aswell.

Flygon can also run with Snorlax, Flygon Screech on the first turn, Snorlax Curses. This allows you to fire away with EQ as snorlax having cursed, takes a hit... hits the opponent on the same turn. On the next turn, rest snorlax and have flygon still firing...

I cannot express how useful flygon is Double-Battles... I've fallen prey to the Snorlax/Flygon combo lots of times, along with Flygon/Salamence combos too.

If you are looking for a more defensive yet dangerous set for flygon, try

Flygon@ Leftovers
Adamant - Levitate
EV's: 252 HP/ 144 Attack/ 80 Def/ 32 Speed

- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw/Stone Edge
- Substitute
- Fire Blast / Screech/ Roost/ Toxic/ U-Turn

This set has a lot of potential. It used to run havoc back in the Sapphire/Ruby days, and back in my Pokemon XD: Gale of Drakness days aswell... I've tried it out in this generation and has given me plenty of success. Substitute scouts attacks, serves as a shield. Behind the subs, you can fire away with STAB EQ's and DC's or Stone Edge for better coverage. Your fourth slot is really up to you. Screech is for reasons already mentioned, Roost for healing and longer stay-in power, Toxic to annoy and wear down bulky pokemon, U-Turn to hit Celebi hard (which I happen to find a lot in Double battles) and keep your Dragon by switching out. Fire Blast is for Steels like Skarmory that come to ruin the fun, but that wont be an issue because Thyplosion's got it covered.

If you want to maximize you team's offensive, take out Rhyperior and put Electivire along with zapdos. Everytime you Discharge, Electivire gets a free speed boost and prepares to take out opponents, this works really well too.

If you need me to give you his set, let me know
 
Thank you for the advice here.

I like the idea of changing Flygon's moveset to accompany Snorlax. If you could give me a more detailed description of how they work well together, that would be much appreciated. :)

Feint is useful occasionally, but I would be willing to change it for a more decent move. I'm not crazy about the Life Orb in doubles because of its recoil, but I could try it out and see. Also, I have never really used Substitutes much in doubles. They seem to be less effective because of 2 hits during one turn that usually break it. Does Flygon really make good use of this?

Also, I have considered Electivire instead of Rhyperior. It would take a lot of time to get that Rhyperior from XD with the purified move, but Helping Hand is a very good move in doubles that few learn. Electabuzz on the other hand learns Follow Me, which isn't quite as helpful with Zapdos already boosting its ability. I also considered a Crocune-physical Swampert in Rhyperior's position for a while (for a late game sweeper). {See Smogon's dex} Unfortunately, it lacks HH as well.

Please give me some more suggestions for Flygon and Rhyperior. Typhy and Vappy don't change. :P
 
I faced once a combo where Flygon and Snorlax were together... and this is how it went.

It was a a 4 vs 4, i dont remember what pokemon he used to take out my Lucario and Celebi... I think he had Heatran and Heracross... ANYWAYS...

There I am... He has Flygon and Snorlax... my Vaporeon is out in play and Im switching to my mixape... but he Screeched on the turn before... so my poor mixape comes into a 2 def drop thanks to the Sand Dragon.

I thought wow, this is easy. Close combat on Snorlax, Ice beam on Flygon... I won the match... Um no.

This dude pulls Protect on Snorlax, Flygon uses EQ kills my mixape and my Vaporeon barely makes it. I get the Ice Beam on Flygon, and he is down... so now I have an agonizing vaporeon against Snorlax, I used wish but... He used Return and killed me. Game Over.

I talked to him after and he said he runs Protect on Snorlax instead of rest... so it looks something like this

- Curse
- Return
- Crunch
- Protect

His technique was. Snorlax curses, Flygon screeches. next turn Snorlax protect, Flygon EQ's. Turn after, both attack... or sub flygon (since screech forces switches). Keep firing and protecting.

Although on paper looks too simple, Snorlax's high spec def plus protect and curse makes him extremely hard to take down... and flygon great attacking prowess, EQ immunity, Electric immunity, a bunch of resistances, and nice moveset... it can take out snorlax's counters while snorlax powers up. Im sure that rest could fit in here if you prefer rest on your snorlax, althought the constant protecting will recover his HP assuming it has leftovers ofcourse

After seeing that combo, I fell inlove with it... and when I saw you putting it together... I just had to suggest it to you. I hope this helped
 
Electivire's Motor drive with Zapdos' Discharce is a killer pair. You have both a physical and special Electric/Ice combo to take down atleast 2/3 of any team plus Electivire's speed boost will outspeed most pokemon with the right EV investment.
 
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