It really depends what you want your honchkrow for. Seeing the amount of sleep powder users running around (most notably liligant) it can easily switch in, absorb the sleep, and set up a substitute then your opponent is almost definitely going to lose a team member. Though I agree that moxie is the most common, my word of advice would be not to switch in too hastily with your steel-type (I know this through experience).
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Honchkrow Suspect Discussion
- Thread starter Oglemi
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It really depends what you want your honchkrow for. Seeing the amount of sleep powder users running around (most notably liligant) it can easily switch in, absorb the sleep, and set up a substitute then your opponent is almost definitely going to lose a team member. Though I agree that moxie is the most common, my word of advice would be not to switch in too hastily with your steel-type (I know this through experience).
It's only the MixKrow set that has ridiculously small number of safe switch-ins. And nobody runs them. If more people ran them, I might change my mind -- if someone shows that the MoxieKrow - MixKrow guessing game is too broken for its existence, only then would I say ban it. And really, no one has shown that yet.
I really haven't changed my opinion on Krow. It's just simply too easily walled, and you just need a solid Flying-type resistance. If your playstyle is bulky offense, you just simply need one. You can't even blame anyone but yourself when you don't have a resistance to a type and get swept by a sweeper spamming that move. If you play more offensive teams, it's hard to get past Honchkrow's sucker punch, but there are still viable options like Aggron, Klinklang, Kabutops, Omastar, Rhydon, etc. and Substitute users. If you don't have that, you can have faster priorities, like Entei Extremespeed. It's simply not that broken.
I really haven't changed my opinion on Krow. It's just simply too easily walled, and you just need a solid Flying-type resistance. If your playstyle is bulky offense, you just simply need one. You can't even blame anyone but yourself when you don't have a resistance to a type and get swept by a sweeper spamming that move. If you play more offensive teams, it's hard to get past Honchkrow's sucker punch, but there are still viable options like Aggron, Klinklang, Kabutops, Omastar, Rhydon, etc. and Substitute users. If you don't have that, you can have faster priorities, like Entei Extremespeed. It's simply not that broken.
I agree. Though I don't know why mixkrow isn't used more seeing how good coverage it has. It can be very difficult to stop when it does turn up. Honchkrow is far from broken though.
While MoxiCrow can 2hko more things than the SubRoost can the latter is far more dangerous because of the Moxie boosts it can aquire. One death against SubRoost Krow might cost you the game while 1 death against the MixKrow is just 1 death. Even if the mixed set became popular it wouldn't be broken. It can get countered by enough pokes like Regirock, Rhydon and Stunfisk and cannot boost its attack. In fact you can easily play around SuperPower by switching around,to make it kill its attack stat so that almost everything can take it on. MixKrow's biggest draw is its surprise factor and good wallbreaking abilites.
But as said again the only Krow that has the potential to make it a suspect is, imo, the SubRoost set.
But as said again the only Krow that has the potential to make it a suspect is, imo, the SubRoost set.
But as mentioned earlier, subroostkrow is still pretty easily walled so on mixkrow you can have 1 kill over no kills. But with team preview, I can still see subroostkrow doing well if you manage to get there steels out of the way but with things like ferroseed around, it's easier said than done.
Out of my 300+ games that I have played I would say that I've seen maybe 3 times a mix crow. Even the regular sub roost krow is going down in usage since the tier shifts. As said by many only if the mixkrow gets used more it will be banned. But unless someone can prove that u should use mixkrow over moxiekrow for a good reason other than the "suprise" factor honchkrow will always be a viable revenger and late game sweeper because of moxie.
Honchkrow is not even remotely overpowered in my opinion. It does have high Base Attack, a high powered STAB move, and strong priority, but I believe that Honchkrow has some shortcomings that prevent it from overpowering the tier.
One drawback is Honchkrow's low Base Speed, which is quite exploitable, and makes Honchkrow reliant on Sucker Punch, which is quite strong but also not completely reliable as it fails if the opponent does not use an attacking move, a faster opponent uses their own priority move, or a higher priority move (Extreme Speed) used. This speed issue is the primary reason for SubMoxieKrow being the most common set, as without a Substitute, Honchkrow can be easily statused, Tricked a Choice Item, have a priority move hit Honchkrow before it can deal damage back, or have a faster Pokemon set up a Substitute against it. Getting a Substitute up eases prediction, at the cost of lost coverage with only two attacking moves, making Rock and Steel Types very good counters to the most commonly used set.
Honchkrow also has rely on Brave Bird, which although very powerful, also deals a considerable amount of recoil, which forces it to use Roost in order to have any sort of longevity, and that turn can be abused by the opponent. Honchkrow's Stealth Rock weakness combined with its below average defenses are also more hindrances to its longevity, which is another reason why many of Smogon's players choose to lose coverage and gain more reliability by using the SubMoxie set, which most previous posts have shown to have many solid answers in the RU metagame.
One drawback is Honchkrow's low Base Speed, which is quite exploitable, and makes Honchkrow reliant on Sucker Punch, which is quite strong but also not completely reliable as it fails if the opponent does not use an attacking move, a faster opponent uses their own priority move, or a higher priority move (Extreme Speed) used. This speed issue is the primary reason for SubMoxieKrow being the most common set, as without a Substitute, Honchkrow can be easily statused, Tricked a Choice Item, have a priority move hit Honchkrow before it can deal damage back, or have a faster Pokemon set up a Substitute against it. Getting a Substitute up eases prediction, at the cost of lost coverage with only two attacking moves, making Rock and Steel Types very good counters to the most commonly used set.
Honchkrow also has rely on Brave Bird, which although very powerful, also deals a considerable amount of recoil, which forces it to use Roost in order to have any sort of longevity, and that turn can be abused by the opponent. Honchkrow's Stealth Rock weakness combined with its below average defenses are also more hindrances to its longevity, which is another reason why many of Smogon's players choose to lose coverage and gain more reliability by using the SubMoxie set, which most previous posts have shown to have many solid answers in the RU metagame.
Pretty much this.
There is a lot that threatens Honchkrow and can take even a boosted Sucker Punch. Steels wall it unless it's not running Moxie, in which case it wont ohko a lot of bulkier Pokes. Basically it's Moxie or coverage and without Moxie it loses what makes it so threatening, late game priority sweeping.
Sucker Punch is far from full proof, you can predict around it/stall it and Brave Bird does nothing to the Pokemon that wall it the best (Aggron/Rhydon). Even offensive Rhydon/Aggron can take multiple hits from Honchkrow and K.O it. Then there is Steelix who just blatantly laughs at it.
If you're not prepared for Honchkrow, you pretty much deserve to get wrecked as you're also not prepared for Braviary/Swellow or any of the other powerful birds.
Honestly, Honchkrow is quite over-rated, it's very good, but not leagues ahead of say, SD Absol, which barely gets mentioned and is more of a threat to Honchkrows checks due to boosted Superpower.
i agree with Sabinfrost since after stealth rocks adamant life orbed superpower KOs honchkrow in addition to being faster than honchkrow (if both using a neutral speed nature)but adamant/jolly scarfed honchkrows brave bird always KOs absol.and without life orb or rocks absol 2KOs honchkrow
I was talking about Absol's ability to deal with Honchkrow's counters like Probopass/Aggron, not Krow itself (which it easily KOs, especially if it carries the uncommon Stone Edge). Honchkrow can't have Moxie and Superpower and if you're going to run Super Luck (like Absol) you pick up a rock weak for lower power, lower speed and no SD. Yes, you have a second STAB (and a good one) but that alone doesn't let Krow > Absol. What separates Krow is either a usable SpA (with access to nasty plot and dual STAB) or Moxie. As has been shown, the Moxie set is easy to wall/predict around.
In my opinion, Honchkrow's current best set and the one I will be discussing is:
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Moxie
- Substitute
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
Based off of prior knowledge, +0 Honchkrow 2HKOs:
Relaxed 252 HP / 252 Def Quagsire
Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Spiritomb
Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus
Relaxed 252 HP / 252 Def Ferroseed
Those are some of the bulkiest physical walls in RU, and Honchkrow 2HKOs them. Still this does not make Honchkrow ban worthy. Many common Pokemon in RU can beat it, including: Aggron, Klinklang, Steelix, Regirock, Rhydon, and even Stunfisk :p. Another honorable mention is Entei, who is able to evade Sucker Punch with Extremespeed. But good player will not Sucker Punch if they have a sub up, or they will switch out from Entei if they do not. The only reason Entei can force Honchkrow out is because of Honch's pittiful base 71 Speed. This severely hinders its ability to sweep because after the sub is broken, most Pokemon can outspeed and set up a sub of their own (Sceptile, Rotom, Moltres) or take Sucker Punch and KO (Sharpedo, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Kabutops). Even if you don't have one of these Pokemon, you are still able to play around it.
Honchkrow is weak to Stealth Rock, takes recoil from Brave Bird and Life Orb, and takes damage from substituting. This will make Honchkrow's life span short, even with Roost, reason being: it can't take a hit. If you Roost on something, you lose your sub, if you attack, you take damage. I've been testing a stall team without a Honchkrow counter (no, I wasn't running Avira's stall). I tried the Pokemon mentioned above, but they got 2HKOd, yet I was still winning against Honchkrow. Why? Because it took so much damage from recoil, I only lost 1 or 2 Pokemon max. Ferroseed is on my team, and even though it takes 60% from Brave Bird, Honchkrow takes damage from Rough Skin, Life orb, and a huge chunk of HP from using Brave Bird.
Overall, Honchkrow should keep its place in RU. It is very easy to beat if you play it right. If you're that worried about this Pokemon, just use a bulky Steel or Rock type Pokemon, I mentioned the main ones above.
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Moxie
- Substitute
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
Based off of prior knowledge, +0 Honchkrow 2HKOs:
Relaxed 252 HP / 252 Def Quagsire
Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Spiritomb
Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus
Relaxed 252 HP / 252 Def Ferroseed
Those are some of the bulkiest physical walls in RU, and Honchkrow 2HKOs them. Still this does not make Honchkrow ban worthy. Many common Pokemon in RU can beat it, including: Aggron, Klinklang, Steelix, Regirock, Rhydon, and even Stunfisk :p. Another honorable mention is Entei, who is able to evade Sucker Punch with Extremespeed. But good player will not Sucker Punch if they have a sub up, or they will switch out from Entei if they do not. The only reason Entei can force Honchkrow out is because of Honch's pittiful base 71 Speed. This severely hinders its ability to sweep because after the sub is broken, most Pokemon can outspeed and set up a sub of their own (Sceptile, Rotom, Moltres) or take Sucker Punch and KO (Sharpedo, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Kabutops). Even if you don't have one of these Pokemon, you are still able to play around it.
Honchkrow is weak to Stealth Rock, takes recoil from Brave Bird and Life Orb, and takes damage from substituting. This will make Honchkrow's life span short, even with Roost, reason being: it can't take a hit. If you Roost on something, you lose your sub, if you attack, you take damage. I've been testing a stall team without a Honchkrow counter (no, I wasn't running Avira's stall). I tried the Pokemon mentioned above, but they got 2HKOd, yet I was still winning against Honchkrow. Why? Because it took so much damage from recoil, I only lost 1 or 2 Pokemon max. Ferroseed is on my team, and even though it takes 60% from Brave Bird, Honchkrow takes damage from Rough Skin, Life orb, and a huge chunk of HP from using Brave Bird.
Overall, Honchkrow should keep its place in RU. It is very easy to beat if you play it right. If you're that worried about this Pokemon, just use a bulky Steel or Rock type Pokemon, I mentioned the main ones above.
I used 3 different sets for Honchkrow
LO SubRoost Sucker Punch Brave Bird - Moxie
LO Roost Sucker Punch Brave Bird HP Ground - Moxie
CB Sucker Punch Brave Bird Superpower Night Slash - Insomnia
Needless to say the 2nd and 3rd were the one who performed better. Why? Because everyone thinks slapping a steel on his team is the way to deal with Honchkrow. Sadly, this is not true. While sending a Steel type is indeed a great option turn 1, it's risky to keep in on the field, due to Honchrkow's movepool allowing him to hit Steels for SE damage. Moxie doesn't really fit Honchkrow IMO, because Honchkrow is by no means a "sweeper", his role is more one of a hole puncher. It thus need Superpower/Heat Wave to beat the things that wall his 2 STAB moves. Of course, SubRoost MoxieKrow isn't really bad, but people have learnt how to deal with it, while it's almost impossible to deal with Insomnia Krow. It can just switch out of Priority users (most of them are obvious), then come back later to do heavy damage. SR weakness might seem to make it easier to check, but in fact either it kills you with a STAB priority Sucker Punch, or it comes into something slower and start destroying a lot of things. It still has counters, but the sets that don't run Moxie eliminates all the counters of the Moxie version, and they have a very scarce number of counters.
I'd be in favour of a ban.
LO SubRoost Sucker Punch Brave Bird - Moxie
LO Roost Sucker Punch Brave Bird HP Ground - Moxie
CB Sucker Punch Brave Bird Superpower Night Slash - Insomnia
Needless to say the 2nd and 3rd were the one who performed better. Why? Because everyone thinks slapping a steel on his team is the way to deal with Honchkrow. Sadly, this is not true. While sending a Steel type is indeed a great option turn 1, it's risky to keep in on the field, due to Honchrkow's movepool allowing him to hit Steels for SE damage. Moxie doesn't really fit Honchkrow IMO, because Honchkrow is by no means a "sweeper", his role is more one of a hole puncher. It thus need Superpower/Heat Wave to beat the things that wall his 2 STAB moves. Of course, SubRoost MoxieKrow isn't really bad, but people have learnt how to deal with it, while it's almost impossible to deal with Insomnia Krow. It can just switch out of Priority users (most of them are obvious), then come back later to do heavy damage. SR weakness might seem to make it easier to check, but in fact either it kills you with a STAB priority Sucker Punch, or it comes into something slower and start destroying a lot of things. It still has counters, but the sets that don't run Moxie eliminates all the counters of the Moxie version, and they have a very scarce number of counters.
I'd be in favour of a ban.
Regirock/Stunfisk still makes perfect counters to Honchcrow, HP ground or not. As Honko explained earlier a Regirock with max HP Impish nature/56 def evs is never 2HKOed by superpower and add the rest in sp def and you will take the HP grounds like nothing and you also have a great wall. Regirock can also counter Moltres, Aerodactyl, Entei, Drapion, Scyther, Scolipede and more less common threats. It's even more viable now as the fighting "hype" has died down.
Stunfisk is another example of a counter who is also viable in the tier. It counter any of Crow's sets and Klingklang sets and is a decent check to Aggron, Aerodactyl, Scyther and Galvantula as well despite having a bad defensive typing.
The fact that HP ground is not an uncommon sight anymore is just making Rhydon a much better check (Who can beat all crows not running HP grass/water [lol]). None of his main counters care about the better dual screening Cress can support him with. How is Honchcrow broken when it infact has 2 Counters to absolutly EVERY set.
HP ground has it's flaws, Taunt has it's flaws and sub has it's flaws and Honchcrow is one of the only pokes in the tier who keeps Rain/Sun from being broken! Crow is not broken, it's a damn good pokemon, but it has it's flaws.
Stunfisk is another example of a counter who is also viable in the tier. It counter any of Crow's sets and Klingklang sets and is a decent check to Aggron, Aerodactyl, Scyther and Galvantula as well despite having a bad defensive typing.
The fact that HP ground is not an uncommon sight anymore is just making Rhydon a much better check (Who can beat all crows not running HP grass/water [lol]). None of his main counters care about the better dual screening Cress can support him with. How is Honchcrow broken when it infact has 2 Counters to absolutly EVERY set.
HP ground has it's flaws, Taunt has it's flaws and sub has it's flaws and Honchcrow is one of the only pokes in the tier who keeps Rain/Sun from being broken! Crow is not broken, it's a damn good pokemon, but it has it's flaws.
I find it comical that Honchkrow is still around.
It's tempting to use Insomnia in RU since its more reliable, but there is really no reason to use it since Moxie makes Honchkrow just so hard to deal with in this tier specifically.
Gotta use this set:
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Moxie
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Hidden Power Ground
- Pursuit / Roost / Night Slash
Revenge, or switch in for easy trapping and grabbing a boost (not going to count this as a kill for Honchkrow, necessarily). Then you're not going to find much that survives a +1 Sucker Punch or Brave Bird. What is viable and does? Aggron, Magneton, Rhydon, maybe a little more. Two of those are OHKOed by HP Ground. You can use HP Grass to take out Rhydon, but Rhydon isn't as threatening as Aggron and it still takes a bunch of damage since it only .5 resists Brave Bird and still takes quite a bit from HP Ground.
It just takes the game into its own hands quite easily and is a little ridiculous to stop.
It's tempting to use Insomnia in RU since its more reliable, but there is really no reason to use it since Moxie makes Honchkrow just so hard to deal with in this tier specifically.
Gotta use this set:
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Moxie
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Hidden Power Ground
- Pursuit / Roost / Night Slash
Revenge, or switch in for easy trapping and grabbing a boost (not going to count this as a kill for Honchkrow, necessarily). Then you're not going to find much that survives a +1 Sucker Punch or Brave Bird. What is viable and does? Aggron, Magneton, Rhydon, maybe a little more. Two of those are OHKOed by HP Ground. You can use HP Grass to take out Rhydon, but Rhydon isn't as threatening as Aggron and it still takes a bunch of damage since it only .5 resists Brave Bird and still takes quite a bit from HP Ground.
It just takes the game into its own hands quite easily and is a little ridiculous to stop.
Heysup the above set gets countered even at +1 by many pokes like Rhydon, Regirock, Stunfisk and Klinglang. It is also checked by any faster pokes with Sub and Entei which cannot switch into Honchkrow but revenges easily with ES. Ah it is also checked by Ampharos, a decent poke who doesn't see much use. After something dies bring him in and use Agility while it uses Sucker Punch. Then use Cotton Guard, which will enable you to even take Brave Birds easily and next turn kill it with Tbolt while Sucker Punch does something like 30%.
(reading alexwolf's post)
"agree, agree, agree, agree, waitAmpharoswhat?"
but yeah, klinklang covers offensive teams against krow while there's a number of defensive counters as outlined above (go stunfisk)
"agree, agree, agree, agree, waitAmpharoswhat?"
but yeah, klinklang covers offensive teams against krow while there's a number of defensive counters as outlined above (go stunfisk)
You want to play the "name a few counters game"? Really? I've seen you around in other suspect threads and there's no way you haven't seen that argument been picked apart (basically mutilated at this point) over and over.
The common flaw with all arguments that are based on naming a few counters is that you tend to name only a few specific counters. Here is how it all happens. In your post you listed 5 counters, and as always, that list is going to shrink once that list is actually looked at with calculations in mind. With such an insignificant amount of counters (smaller than you hoped), your argument will quickly turn into a "well it has a few hard counters" and at the same time you will start suggesting competitively undesirable Pokemon. Both of those arguments are quickly dismissed by me bringing up that Kyogre is countered by things like Ludicolo, so your grounds for wanting a ban would be the same as suggesting that Kyogre should not be banned because it has a couple counters. Then we are back to square one.
So lets get the ball rolling.
You're forgetting how much Honchkrow actually does to these Pokemon on the switch:
HP Ground vs
Regirock = 37.36 - 44.5% (3HKO (2HKO with Spikes and SR but that's a stretch))
Rhydon = 41.06% - 48.79% (2HKO with Spikes or (still likely with) SR (since no lefties))
Kinglang = 53.74 - 63.26% (2HKO)
Ampharos = who gives a fuck% - it's Ampharos....% (HP 2HKOes with SR: 46.73% - 55.45%)
Stunfisk = who gives a fuck% - it's stunfisk....% (+0 Brave Bird 3HKOes, 1+ Brave Bird 2HKOes with SR)
Your bringing up random competitively undesirable (supported by usage stats, calculations, logic, and experience) Pokemon shows me that you are desperate to find counters for whatever reason. Second, the counters you listed aren't even fully reliable - some are even 2HKOed. Third, most of the counters are the same type of Pokemon. Regirock and Rhydon are both beaten by the same Pokemon and do basically the same thing, give or take some damage or a status move. And finally, none of them have reliable recovery making them checks at best.
I never said Honchkrow has no checks, but checks aren't going to stop Honchkrow from coming in and killing something and eventually even sweeping the last couple. It's ridiculous to suggest someone has to carry Regirock, a fast sweeper with Substitute and perfect prediction skills, oh and Entei and Hitmonlee and Lugia (may as well) to merely fend off Honchkrow reliably.
That's all for now...I'm tired.
The common flaw with all arguments that are based on naming a few counters is that you tend to name only a few specific counters. Here is how it all happens. In your post you listed 5 counters, and as always, that list is going to shrink once that list is actually looked at with calculations in mind. With such an insignificant amount of counters (smaller than you hoped), your argument will quickly turn into a "well it has a few hard counters" and at the same time you will start suggesting competitively undesirable Pokemon. Both of those arguments are quickly dismissed by me bringing up that Kyogre is countered by things like Ludicolo, so your grounds for wanting a ban would be the same as suggesting that Kyogre should not be banned because it has a couple counters. Then we are back to square one.
So lets get the ball rolling.
You're forgetting how much Honchkrow actually does to these Pokemon on the switch:
HP Ground vs
Regirock = 37.36 - 44.5% (3HKO (2HKO with Spikes and SR but that's a stretch))
Rhydon = 41.06% - 48.79% (2HKO with Spikes or (still likely with) SR (since no lefties))
Kinglang = 53.74 - 63.26% (2HKO)
Ampharos = who gives a fuck% - it's Ampharos....% (HP 2HKOes with SR: 46.73% - 55.45%)
Stunfisk = who gives a fuck% - it's stunfisk....% (+0 Brave Bird 3HKOes, 1+ Brave Bird 2HKOes with SR)
Your bringing up random competitively undesirable (supported by usage stats, calculations, logic, and experience) Pokemon shows me that you are desperate to find counters for whatever reason. Second, the counters you listed aren't even fully reliable - some are even 2HKOed. Third, most of the counters are the same type of Pokemon. Regirock and Rhydon are both beaten by the same Pokemon and do basically the same thing, give or take some damage or a status move. And finally, none of them have reliable recovery making them checks at best.
I never said Honchkrow has no checks, but checks aren't going to stop Honchkrow from coming in and killing something and eventually even sweeping the last couple. It's ridiculous to suggest someone has to carry Regirock, a fast sweeper with Substitute and perfect prediction skills, oh and Entei and Hitmonlee and Lugia (may as well) to merely fend off Honchkrow reliably.
That's all for now...I'm tired.
Yeah Texas Cloverleaf, Ampharos makes Honchkrow his bitch lol. You must bring him in on either a lured Sucker Punch or on a Sub though because Brave Bird 2hkos after SR. But you can always get lucky and get some parahax from Static xd.
After you are in, use Agility so you are faster than Krow as he tries to Sucker Punch you. And here comes Ampharos's trump card, Cotton Guard, which protects him from any dangerous priority attacks and lets it beat some physical attackers like Gallade 1 on 1.
It is an ok poke with some surprise factor that can give you some satisfying victories but that's it really...
Anyway i don't feel like arguing with you now but you should accept the fact that experience matters more than theorymon. Everyone that has been playing RU for some time now know that Honchkrow is manageable.
After you are in, use Agility so you are faster than Krow as he tries to Sucker Punch you. And here comes Ampharos's trump card, Cotton Guard, which protects him from any dangerous priority attacks and lets it beat some physical attackers like Gallade 1 on 1.
It is an ok poke with some surprise factor that can give you some satisfying victories but that's it really...
Wow wow take it easy. I just mentioned some pokes that i have used and are very good in dealing with Honchkrow. What you are telling is certainly true, however you are assuming that you will always predict the switch-in and use HP Ground or that the opponent is dumb enough to let his check/counter get ohkoed after he sees that you are running HP Ground.
Anyway i don't feel like arguing with you now but you should accept the fact that experience matters more than theorymon. Everyone that has been playing RU for some time now know that Honchkrow is manageable.
Ok, so I haven't been around the last 3 weeks (my interests jump around a bit) and as such I haven't played with the new drop downs, but I did use Honchkrow somewhat extensively on my teams (and a few different versions) so hopefully my statements still hold some value.
I like Honchkrow, he fits well into my play style. I think he can hold his own on a good portion of teams and he can (somewhat) viably run a few different sets (good for surprise factor - which I also like).
He's not broken.
Use him. You will see what I mean.
He wreaks shit when you're low on the ladder, but he's simply slightly above average when you get anywhere close to the top.
The best way to see all the weaknesses a 'mon has is to use it a lot; by personal experience he has quite a few. He has hard counters/checks, pretty good counters/checks, and things I'm surprised can counter or check him. When I play vs "insert arbitrary good 'mon here" for the first few times, I'm often wondering what could ever beat it. I then use "inserted good 'mon" and usually realize its really not as good as it first seemed.
(I would list Honch's counters, but it seems that has been hashed out pretty well over the last couple pages)
Maybe this was already said, but just a couple of my additional thoughts.
Moxie (there are even a few different moxie sets) generally the best, best chance to mid or late game sweep, can be played around, and has the most counters, checks. (Flying/Dark ain't godly coverage)
All his other sets choice scarf, mix, (choice band even?) they can beat some specific counters and can certainly be good in their own right, but he can't sweep the same way moxie can, and things moxie has a chance of beating won't be beat.
I actually don't think that it's ridiculous to carry one of the checks you listed (and failed to list as there are more) as most are very competitive in the RU environment and reliably stop other things as well as Honchkrow.
Aaand, I realize it was just for effect, but if you really (may as well) think you have to dip into Ubers for a Honch counter... well, you just don't
It seems the general consensus among the tier's top players is that Honchkrow is good, but not broken. It can be assumed that there will be disagreements, but thankfully the (Council) majority will rule
I like Honchkrow, he fits well into my play style. I think he can hold his own on a good portion of teams and he can (somewhat) viably run a few different sets (good for surprise factor - which I also like).
He's not broken.
Use him. You will see what I mean.
He wreaks shit when you're low on the ladder, but he's simply slightly above average when you get anywhere close to the top.
The best way to see all the weaknesses a 'mon has is to use it a lot; by personal experience he has quite a few. He has hard counters/checks, pretty good counters/checks, and things I'm surprised can counter or check him. When I play vs "insert arbitrary good 'mon here" for the first few times, I'm often wondering what could ever beat it. I then use "inserted good 'mon" and usually realize its really not as good as it first seemed.
(I would list Honch's counters, but it seems that has been hashed out pretty well over the last couple pages)
Maybe this was already said, but just a couple of my additional thoughts.
Moxie (there are even a few different moxie sets) generally the best, best chance to mid or late game sweep, can be played around, and has the most counters, checks. (Flying/Dark ain't godly coverage)
All his other sets choice scarf, mix, (choice band even?) they can beat some specific counters and can certainly be good in their own right, but he can't sweep the same way moxie can, and things moxie has a chance of beating won't be beat.
I actually don't think that it's ridiculous to carry one of the checks you listed (and failed to list as there are more) as most are very competitive in the RU environment and reliably stop other things as well as Honchkrow.
Aaand, I realize it was just for effect, but if you really (may as well) think you have to dip into Ubers for a Honch counter... well, you just don't
It seems the general consensus among the tier's top players is that Honchkrow is good, but not broken. It can be assumed that there will be disagreements, but thankfully the (Council) majority will rule
The concept that is troubling about your argument is that you're forcing people to use a select few Pokemon, some of which only function well as a Honchkrow counter (Stunfisk, for example) and are otherwise not competitively viable (or minimally viable, like Ampharos). While there are many viable checks, checks don't stop Honchkrow from killing at least 1-2 things in a game before you send your revenge killer in (and he likely just switches out). This is akin to Kyogre having a few counters in Ubers but also having counters like Ludicolo. Lots of things in OU and down check Kyogre, and yet, it's still uber.
The other thing that is being ignored is that theory counters don't actually work that well. Ironically, alexwolf pointed out that experience matters more than theorymon (which is kind of a pointless statement to make...I digress) and this is because Pokemon isn't played in a vacuum. It isn't only Honchkrow vs the rest of RU. This is specifically true for Honchkrow's counters. You have Pokemon that still take a chunk of damage from even just Brave Bird....and they have no way of recovering that HP back. Unless you sit around and watch them gain 6.25% per turn (Rhydon can't...), they are almost permanently taking that damage.
Pokemon having counters has never ever stopped a Pokemon from being banned, you can't ignore the nature and effectiveness of the counters in the big picture either, which is what's happening.
The other thing that is being ignored is that theory counters don't actually work that well. Ironically, alexwolf pointed out that experience matters more than theorymon (which is kind of a pointless statement to make...I digress) and this is because Pokemon isn't played in a vacuum. It isn't only Honchkrow vs the rest of RU. This is specifically true for Honchkrow's counters. You have Pokemon that still take a chunk of damage from even just Brave Bird....and they have no way of recovering that HP back. Unless you sit around and watch them gain 6.25% per turn (Rhydon can't...), they are almost permanently taking that damage.
Pokemon having counters has never ever stopped a Pokemon from being banned, you can't ignore the nature and effectiveness of the counters in the big picture either, which is what's happening.
heysup, there are a lot of honchkrow counters that are effective in general. subwisp rotom can counter (or if they have perfect prediction, in can switch in and take it down with it) every standard set unless it switches into a taunt. regirock has sr and counters entei. omastar and kabutops beat the most common variant. sure most of the counters can be beaten by slowking, but that's like saying every cb dragonite counter is beaten by heatran. it doesn't mean that the honchkrow counters are bad, just that they share a counter.
Noone is forcing anyone to do anything. As i said to you before experience is all that matters. I am not the oldest RU player but i have been playing for 1 month and i can tell you that most of the times i didn't even consider Honchkrow when teambuilding. Also pls don't stuck on details. Stunfisk is a good poke, and although is not great has its uses. The fact that i mentioned him doesn't mean that Honchkrow's counters are either obsolete or mediocre pokes.If you don't like Stunfisk use another one of his more viable counters like Regirock (if you are afraid of HP Ground run some S.Def, don't forget that Regirock is also a superb switch-in for Moltres so they help a lot). Also i mentioned Ampharos as a suggestion for originality. Of 'course there are better pokes out there but the fact that you can beat a Honchkrow with Ampharos is very satisfying, you know what i mean? I tried him in my team and he did ok so i shared my experience with you.
Also it is not so easy for Honchkrow to kill things as you make it sound. As long as your Brave Bird resist is alive, Honchkrow has troubles killing one of your pokes, except if it has Pursuit, or nets a surprise kill with HP Ground.
Finally about your point on his counters not being good or not having solid recovery. Well guess what? Many counters to many pokes don't have reliable recovery does this mean that they are bad? Nah. You also seem to be implying that Rhydon will die faster than Honchkrow from Brave Bird and hazards damage because you say that when Rhydon comes in to tank a BB he loses damage which he cant recover and Honchkrow simply switches out. As you said it's not as simple as that. Who guarantees that you have an answer to Rhydon, for every time you get forced out? Don't forget that Rhydon has a beastly Attack stat and superb coverage. Not many teams enjoy taking hits for a long time from him. Also Honchkrow has to suffer LO damage every time he attacks Rhydon in addition to SR damage upon switching in which means that eventually you will need to Roost. And this is when you will become vulnerable.
Come on man don't tell me things like Honchkrow isn't alone in the opposing team. As i said to you before i have been playing RU for 1 month now. I know this. And i can assure you from experience that most Honchkrow's counters are very good pokes and many times manage to outlast Honchkrow. Honchrkow's biggest selling point atm is his strong priority against faster threats, which prevents them from sweeping your team.
Stunfisk is perfectly competitively viable, it provides a check to rotom, swellow, braviary, klinklang, and even aggron lol, magneton is walled by it, it takes down quite a bit in reality. (aggron's CB EQ is the only attack it has capable of 2hkoing and subpunch is outright walled) dont say that stunfisk is unviable, it is a perfectly viable pokemon in this meta
SubWisp Rotom can come in risk losing (Substitute, Night slash) or at best take 37.82 - 44.73% from Brave Bird, putting it in danger of being KOed next switch in (assuming it switches into SR both times). It's not like SubWisp Rotom is so threatening that Honchkrow can't switch out.
I'm also not sure what common variant you're talking about....but most Honchkrow I've seen carry HP Grass, Ground, or Superpower. If not, they carry Substitute and offensive Omastar is 2HKOed by Sucker Punch.
On the other hand, Defensive Omastar is a viable counter and is actually threatening because of Spikes. It also counters HPgrass-less Entei, I guess. It's just not that good at anything else. I've not seen too many of these probably for that reason.
And I never said the counters are all bad, I said they are all too similar and have the same problems. By preparing for Honchkrow, you are now very weak to a lot of other Pokemon.
You listed a few of Pokemon that counter Honchkrow, and while we probably missed some, presumably (that is, you can do the calcs yourself...) almost every other Pokemon loses to it.
alexwolf said:
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Some of the Pokemon you listed are generally useless other than for countering Honchkrow and you're belittling me for pointing that out?
alexwolf said:
As long as your Brave Bird resist is absurdly bulky (Regirock or Rhydon) and doesn't die to Sucker Punch or HP.....that's been my point the entire time.
A major pet peeve of mine is that people see the shiny "not very effective" all of the sudden assume "oh it's a counter". No, that's not true. Not even most of the time. What you're suggesting is that carrying a non specific flying-type resist is going to let you get around Honchkrow but as you've seen that's not the case. There are a lot of resists that do counter Honchkrow but lots don't.
Honchkrow's wall breaking power isn't even the main selling point. It's the sweeping and revenge killing potential with Sucker Punch.
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