Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

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Why does everyone think that Ho-oh is useless after taking SR damage.

It does get Roost, backed up by 90 base speed and 106/90/154 defences and Fire/Flying is a damn good defence type if not for SR - Infernape, Bronzong, Scizor, Shaymin, Heatran are all common pokemon that can't do jack to Ho-oh whilst it Roosts in their faces.

Deoxys-E would rocket in usage as Ho-Oh users try to stop their opponents getting up SR whilst getting their own down to stop opposing ho-ohs.
 
I don't think a single person has claimed that Ho-oh is useless after taking Stealth Rocks damage, let alone many people, let alone "everyone".
 
When you consider that Sacred Fire has 8 PP, and most of the Pokemon you'll be wanting to switch into Ho-oh are either immune to Fire (Flash Fire guys, although the threat of Earthquake means they have to tread carefully) or resist Fire and have Pressure (Suicune, Moltres, enemy Ho-oh), suddenly Sacred Fire doesn't seem like such a spammable attack, but rather, something you'll want to keep safe. I've won and lost battles on counting PP and slowly wearing it out with Pressure Pokemon.

Chris is me, no one has directly refuted your point about Ho-oh being not uber because that is not the point of the thread. From how I see it, most people aren't saying "Ho-oh is definitely not uber.", but rather, "There are some limitations on Ho-oh that mean it is possible it should be in OU.". Pokemon should be proven to be uber; they shouldn't have to be proven to not be uber.
 
Ho-oh can't sweep, really, and it is walled by a lot so people should stop pretending it isn't.
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Arceus can't sweep, really, and it is walled by a lot so people should stop pretending it isn't.

Let's talk about Rhyperior for a moment. An Adamant 252 Attack one can still take a hit from just about every Ho-oh, but it can still switch in on Sacred Fire. A burned Rhyperior does 100.48% - 118.03% to 252 HP Ho-oh. Even if it Roosts, it's still 2HKOd, and this is with Rhyperior doing the amount of damage it would do if the hit were neutral. Impish 0 Atk EV Rhyperior can still OHKO 0 HP ones when burned, too, though I expect that it might run Lum Berry to prevent that in the place.
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Besides the fact that Lum Rhyperior is somewhat overcentralizing, the point isn't to get through the assault unscathed. The point is to outstall it of Stone Edge. Since each one from burned Rhyperior does about 50% Ho-oh has no qualms about Roost/Pressure stalling it out of the four chances it has, then killing it.

Tyranitar can beat it too, though it takes a fair bit from EQ; the sandstorm passive damage actually makes its Stone Edges effectively more powerful.
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Same thing as Rhyperior. All it has if it gets burned is the crit chance, and while I'll admit that's plausible and can turn a game around relying on it is kind of stupid.

Uggghhh. Ho-oh has LOADS of weaknesses. Its strengths don't nullify those.
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The only weakness you and everyone else seems to be able to think of is Stealth Rock. Let me tell you, I am not a good battler. The only time I've ever made it to the second round of a tourney was when my opponent didn't show up. But if I can successfully use a Shedinja in OU then I'm sure someone with far more experience than me can pull off spinning for Ho-oh.

If it runs Protect and Roost, what two other moves could possibly combine together to make this Ho-oh too good for OU?
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It doesn't need Protect, though stalling sets might find it useful I'd prefer Sub for those, but Roost is welcome on mixed LO sets. Scared Fire/HP Ice/Thunderbolt/Roost @ Life Orb sounds pretty good to me.

This is actually misleading as the Ho-oh user would actually want the first three Stone Edges to hit. If one of them misses then Ho-oh is obliged to switch out. You can't Roost at full HP. Besides wouldn't a non-choiced Rhyperior have Earthquake for Roosting turns
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Ho-oh wouldn't be at full HP if Stone Edge misses because Rhyperior Stone Edges do slightly more than 50% so you're getting a tiny net loss. If it doesn't have Leftovers, and if it's a sweeping set it shouldn't (stallings sets have Sub for killing Stone Edge PP), it will always have HP to recover as long as Stone Edge doesn't miss twice. Earthquakes do the same exact amount to Ho-oh after a Roost so they're in the same boat except that they won't miss, and there's mindgames to play if you're switching attacks. On a side note lol @ Rhyperior needing its moves to miss to be a counter.
 
Obi said:
Chris is me, no one has directly refuted your point about Ho-oh being not uber because that is not the point of the thread. From how I see it, most people aren't saying "Ho-oh is definitely not uber.", but rather, "There are some limitations on Ho-oh that mean it is possible it should be in OU.". Pokemon should be proven to be uber; they shouldn't have to be proven to not be uber.
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The point I was referencing was more meant to be along the lines of "what exactly is Uber?"

Anyhow, given a free month I wouldn't object to Ho-oh, or anything, being tested. However, it seems that the result of said testing would be predictable. I guess you never know until you try. Most of my responses were to the OP's attempt to "prove it's not Uber". Given the time constraints (we only have this metagame for, what, 3 years? plus there are issues like platinum and shaymin and all the other 600 BST suspects to deal with), I think Ho-oh should be our last priority in testing.

Interesting, off topic idea: Why don't we test something we all "know" is Uber (Kyogre) in OU, observe the metagame trends, and use it as a basis for comparison to other Suspects?
 
I think I'm done with making long posts, as I've already covered just about all of the flaws that I think make it testable. I don't know what the standard procedure is, whether somebody would make a tournament so we could get some more evidence or whether there's enough here for it to be a suspect. Either way, I would be repeating myself until something did happen.
SkarmBlissCounter said:
It does get Roost, backed up by 90 base speed and 106/90/154 defences and Fire/Flying is a damn good defence type if not for SR - Infernape, Bronzong, Scizor, Shaymin, Heatran are all common pokemon that can't do jack to Ho-oh whilst it Roosts in their faces.
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Oddly enough, not as much as you'd think. If Ho-oh switches into Stealth Rock, it is actually OHKOd by Scizor's +2 LO Quick Attack. I've been curious myself about how well it can counter Skymin (because if we let it into OU some people might want Skymin tested again afterwards).

If my calcs are correct, Timid LO Skymin hitting 252 HP Ho-oh on the switch with Seed Flare does 10% damage.
After the Sp. Def drop Skymin does 207-244 damage with LO Air Slash. If Ho-oh flinches, it's an easy KO. I expect that even without Life Orb it wouldn't be a good counter for it.

So now we can establish that Ho-oh is not a Skymin counter and Ho-oh can only counter Scizor if there is no Stealth Rock.

You can switch Ho-oh into Infernape, but if it happens to use Swords Dance as you come in you could be at risk of LO T-punch OHKOing you, even with 252 HP EVs (well, anything less than that and the OHKO is guaranteed). It can run Stone Edge too.

Basically, Ho-oh is not the answer to all of Platinum's new big threats, as Skymin, Kingdra and often not even Scizor are countered by it before it gets beaten by them.
(and yes, this does mean I'm no longer concerned about the possibility of Skymin being banned before Ho-oh gets in)




@Sanjay: Look, you seem to have forgotten a lot. First of all, why do people keep saying Stealth Rock is the only weakness I can come up with? It's quite frustrating. I've come up with counters (many of which aren't spoiled by a burn, might I add), revenge killers, and calculations like our one above here where we see that Ho-oh can actually be beaten by Skymin and its neutral Air Slash if it comes in afterwards.

Your LO set with Roost is not bulky enough to take hits from a burned Rhyperior, as it needs to have 252 HP EVs to stall that out. Your set also lacks a good way to beat Tyranitar, who can win one on one thanks to your more offensively-minded set. And you don't need Rhyperior, either; I've made a post full of things that can handle LO mixed sets.

Rhyperior doesn't need its moves to miss to be a counter. Let's look at all the sets on its page... we have Rock Polishers, Choice Banders, Resttalkers and Swords Dancers. Note how the only one of its sets Ho-oh has a slight chance of beating is the standard one.
 
Every Pokemon has flaws, unless it is like Arceus or something. Just because it has flaws doesn't mean that it deserves a test.

That's all I'll say about this topic. To be honest, I agree that Ho-oh deserves at least a test much, much, further down the line, but I'm not too sure I like the focus of your argument. I wouldn't worry about the stuff Ho-oh will be countering either, but the stuff that will arise to try and deal with Ho-oh. If there's significant evidence that Ho-oh will be fine in OU, then show us significant, non theorymon evidence, much like the Eon Cup.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37961

Refer to this thread, consider how maniac made a case for Lati@s - it's a much better way to do so rather than opening a can of worms inviting everyone with half a brain to throw their 2 cents in. I appreciate the effort you put into the OP but to be honest, you don't really give a really convincing argument, at least in my opinion.
 
I've looked back through your arguments and forgive me if I missed something but Dragonite and Salamence are not counters to the set I mentioned and Lum, while it is sometimes run on Outrage sets, severely limits their power so Ho-oh has already done a good job in crippling the opponent just by the mere threat of its presence. I'll give you Rhyperior and Tyranitar (don't know why I was thinking it wouldn't need HP EVs and now that I think about it Tar would either be CB or DD anyways lol) but they really do not like the burn and even if Ho-oh can't take them on itself it severely cripples them. My comment on Rhyperior wanting Stone Edge to miss was more of a joke. I remember part of Rhyperior's hype being it 2HKOs most bulky waters and it simply cannot do that burned, Tyranitar doesn't fare much better. What's their use if they're so damaged they become dead weight afterwards? Is it worth a spot on the team to kill Ho-oh?

Bulky waters not named Crocune/Mixpert can't really do anything to it, the latter is stalled out of Stone Edge without HP EVs or a burn on it. Toxic is nice but anything short of Milotic (and lol Gastrodon) is dead afterwards because of no recovery and with all the support Ho-oh is going to need anyways I'm not averse to using a cleric, which I'm sure will become more common as everyone anticipates burn hax. Toxic doesn't have immediate enough effects to kill off a sweeper before it decimates your team, and Ho-oh can always reset by switching out.

The suicide SR leads everyone seems so fond of will be dead so spinning is not a problem; I've said this before with Shedinja and it's even more true today: no one expects a spinner. Even its walling capabilities are insane and it can easily outstall threats for the team. All this and the move might end up being banned anyways.
 
Tangerine,
I have listed a fair few things that I am confident can arise and deal with Ho-oh, but that's no better than theorymon at the moment.

I would love to run a tournament so I could get more evidence to back up something like this, but I just don't have the time or the experience to do it. At the moment the closest thing I have to that is from the Rainbow Tournament that somebody else hosted, and his input was that people didn't have many issues with Ho-oh, though this was way back in December and things are different now.

Sanjay, you bring up some good points but I don't have anything to say to them that I haven't already said somewhere else in the thread. I have the list of OU/BL viable counters that aren't bulky waters and often don't fear Sacred Fire's burn. If you don't think you'll know when a Sacred Fire is coming and don't want to risk it with something that can be made a deadweight like Tyranitar, use something else like Cresselia. Toxic is a perfectly ideal way to beat Ho-oh because there are some walls that Ho-oh simply cannot break without running an overspecialised set (like those people saying that Hariyama wasn't a counter because Ho-oh might use Aerial Ace). They can switch out, use a Cleric, whatever, but most experienced players will take advantage of all these free turns they're getting and just how much support Ho-oh needs to function well [Rapid Spinner and the Cleric, for example]
Cleric use may well increase, but that's theorymon and nothing more. I think the sheer amount of support needed to make Ho-oh work would make its usage dwindle over time, but that's theorymon just as much. We can't make that judgment.
 
so Ho-oh has already done a good job in crippling the opponent just by the mere threat of its presence.
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Yes, "forcing" people to put Lum berry on certain pokemon sometimes can be a benefit. It's certainly not "crippling" though, nor is it indicative of an overpowered pokemon.

The suicide SR leads everyone seems so fond of will be dead so spinning is not a problem
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Then there's a distinct possibility that Ho-oh will force down suicide SR leads and people will start favoring sturdier pokemon to lay SR with. Obviously Shedinja doesn't pose nearly the threat that Ho-oh probably would so you have "surprise factor" on your side in that situation.


All this and the move might end up being banned anyways.
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That's not only extremely unlikely, but completely irrelevant even if there were a decent chance of it happening. We're talking about adding versus removing something from the metagame- adding should almost always be given priority.
 
Jetx said:
Oddly enough, not as much as you'd think. If Ho-oh switches into Stealth Rock, it is actually OHKOd by Scizor's +2 LO Quick Attack. I've been curious myself about how well it can counter Skymin (because if we let it into OU some people might want Skymin tested again afterwards).

So now we can establish that Ho-oh is not a Skymin counter and Ho-oh can only counter Scizor if there is no Stealth Rock.
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Wait, people still use QA on Scizor even with Bullet Punch available? I'm surprised... Good thing for Scizor because a +2 Bullet Punch would NOT OHKO a half health Ho-oh...
 
since everyone seems to think that ho-ohs huge burn is going to stop it going to OU what about all the guts abusers for example a scarf guts champ with rock slide=dead ho-oh unless it roosts or switches(which would be stupid because of 2HkO stealth rock)
 
A Pokémon's level of performance in the Uber tier has no impact on its performance in the OU tier. This isn't a "Is Ho-oh good in Ubers" discussion, nor will its skill in Ubers be a factor in deciding to test it.
 
Ho-oh has arguably one of the best offensive physical typings, because fire is super effective against steels and the only physical walls that come to mind that resist it are suicune and regirock
 
shiny meta said:
since everyone seems to think that ho-ohs huge burn is going to stop it going to OU what about all the guts abusers for example a scarf guts champ with rock slide=dead ho-oh unless it roosts or switches(which would be stupid because of 2HkO stealth rock)
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There are 4 common, useful Guts users:

1) Hariyama. Can't switch into Sacred Fire. 2HKO. Remember, it can't have Thick Fat at the same time.
2) Heracross. OHKO by Sacred Fire.
3) Swellow. At most a 2HKO for standard version, even with a bit defense.
4) Machamp. Rather have No Guard than guts, but is still killed by STAB Aerial Ace.

Tingaling said:
Ho-oh has arguably one of the best offensive physical typings, because fire is super effective against steels and the only physical walls that come to mind that resist it are suicune and regirock
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Swampert?

Regirock has problem with Overheat if it has it. 1 Overheat and 1 Earthquake is usually good enough to kill Regirock. HP Grass is also useful against it, as well as Swampert and Suicune.
 
Phizzlax said:
Wait, people still use QA on Scizor even with Bullet Punch available? I'm surprised... Good thing for Scizor because a +2 Bullet Punch would NOT OHKO a half health Ho-oh...
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Lots of people still use Quick Attack because it hurts Zapdos and Gyarados, whereas none of its other moves will. Ho-oh has 16 more base HP and 5 more base Defence than Zapdos, but it takes more from Stealth Rock; it's up to the user to decide which they deem the better counter. Gyarados is better than either of them after an Intimidate, but it can't do much back.

Ho-oh has arguably one of the best offensive physical typings, because fire is super effective against steels and the only physical walls that come to mind that resist it are suicune and regirock
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1535103&postcount=102
I don't see what's wrong with most of the counters there, they might not all resist it but they can still take it. :/

Regirock has problem with Overheat if it has it. 1 Overheat and 1 Earthquake is usually good enough to kill Regirock. HP Grass is also useful against it, as well as Swampert and Suicune.
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You didn't run any damage calculations, did you? Against standard Reigrock, a Modest Life Orb Overheat actually does only 29.12% - 34.07% (and even less when sandstorm is going), don't underestimate those 80/100 defences. It doesn't really mind HP Grass either when sandstorm is running, but I've mentioned several times the drawbacks to running a grass move on your Ho-oh. Although, it'd probably do Regirock some good to be running some Defence EVs and an Impish nature, as in sandstorm it's still as bulky, if not more, than it was before but it could take Earthquakes better too.

It wouldn't be wise to use Earthquake against it, because unless you've already burned it Stone Edge is an OHKO back. The standard set also runs Toxic and Stealth Rock. Ho-oh hates Regirock, I'm afraid.


I don't want to take what I'm about to say too far, so if you have a good counter argument against it that's fair enough. But, if some pokémon I've listed take practically nothing from Sacred Fire and only fear the burn, doesn't the same logic apply to Zap Cannon? It basically has the exact same chance as being a nuisance to your opponent's counter as SF does, as well as 20 more base power. Sure, it hits less often, but it's not the attack that a lot of Ho-oh's would-be counters fear but the burn, just as something that can take hits from a Porygon-Z or come in and outspeed it fears paralysis because it makes it useless on 25% of turns and cuts down its speed. Hell, it may even run Ice Beam to hit Ground types, just as Ho-oh has Earthquake to hit all the Flash Fire pokémon. [Thanks to its 95% accuracy, the chance of Ho-oh burning a switch-in is actually slightly lower than 50%, even lower than Zap Cannon's rate of hitting]
Not trying to make it sound like Zap Cannon is a good move. Just comparing its ability to cripple counters.
 
Since nobody is bothering to back up their claims with damage calcs, I'll go ahead and provide. These are damage calcs for a Ho-oh running LO:Sacred Fire:Earthquake:Thunderbolt:Recover. All the ev spreads are pulled straight out of Smogon's analysises.

Ho-oh's stats:
min/252 evs/max attack: 296 : 359 : 394
min/252 evs/max spatk: 256 : 319 : 350

Milotic:
TB against standard Milotic:
40-47% : 50-59% : 54-64%
Tentacruel:
TB against smogon's ST Tentacruel:
35-41% : 43-51% : 48-57%
EQ against smogon's ST Tentacruel:
84-100% : 100% : 100%
Vaporeon:
TB against smogon's standard Vaporeon:
45-53% : 55-66% : 61-72%
Suicune:
TB against standard bulky Suicunes:
42-50% : 52-62% : 58-68%
Tyranitar:
EQ against maxhp/min def Ttar:
50-60% : 61-72% : 67-79%
Rhyperior:
EQ against max hp/max def Rhyperior:
24-29% : 29-34% : 32-38%
Kingdra:
EQ against 120 hp/ min def Kingdra:
38-45% : 46-54% : 50-60%
Flygon:
SF against min hp/ min def Flygon:
35-41% : 42-50% : 46-55%
Ludicolo:
SF against 204 hp/ min def Ludicolo:
66-78% : 80-95% : 88-100%
Porygon2:
SF against 240 hp/ 164 def Porygon2:
43-51% : 52-62% : 57-68%
Snorlax:
EQ against 168 hp / 120 def Snorlax:
28-33% : 33-40% : 37-44%
Hariyama:
EQ against 76 hp / 252 def Hariyama:
28-33% : 34-40% : 37-44%
TB against 76 hp / min sp def Hariyama:
32-38% : 40-47% : 44-52%
Umbreon:
SF against max hp / min def Umbreon:
41-48% : 49-58% : 54-64%

IMO, these calcs exclude all bulky waters except swampert as a counter, including Ludicolo. Even with minimal ev investment, Ho-oh rips holes out of most of it's would be counters. The only pokemon that stand out for me as hard counters are Defensive Rhyperior, Snorlax and Flygon. Of course, that's excluding Ho-oh teching HP Grass/Ice.
 
Who is to say I am going to send Ho-oh in on your +2 Scizor? How are you going to grab those boosts if I put pressure on you, thus not allowing you to even set up. Without setup Ho-oh can beat nearly everything in the game. Many rapid spinners are capable of beating Scizor, so why would I need to switch out? My Starmie just rapid spinned, instead of switching, allowing a free boost, I stay in because your Stealth Rocker had a premature demise, so I Surf twice for the kill, while I resist your Bullet Punch. Or Donphan, who can possibly Fire Fang you or Roar away your pathetic boosts.

You can say x pokemon has x amount of boosts, but that applies to any pokemon, Uber, OU, or UU. The biggest problem will be killing Ho-oh once it is in play, and not many pokemon outside of Resttalk Rhyperior/bulky rock can do that. Resttalk Hariyama? Really? Earthquake does plenty of damage, and the only way you are beating me is by Stone Edging, and even then, a well time Roost foils it. Oh yeah, BTW, Ho-oh gets Earth Power in Platinum, which 2HKOs Rhyperior, so a mixed set could very well beat it.

I don't run Quick Attack, it is a huge waste of time. Stealth Rock + U-Turn from CB Scizor 2HKOs most of his counters, such as Rotom, Zapdos, and Gyarados. Heatran finishes them with a Fire Blast.
 
Hariyama is killed easily 2HKO by Pluck/Aerial Ace. Without defense and Thick Fat, it's also killed easily 2HKO by Sacred Fire on a Max Attack Ho-Oh.
 
Uh, can we stop dismissing counters just because they lose to one gimmicky move? Latias isn't a Kyogre counter, CB Avalanche is a 2HKO! You can just forget about Blissey being a Raikou counter, RestTalk/CM/Thunderbolt wins every time!
 
Just cause Ho-oh isn't good in the uber metagame, doesn't mean he's OU. 50% chance of burn off 130 attack with 100 bp is nuts, and hes a better special wall than cresselia - better stats and roost. SR weakness can be roosted off.
 
darknessmalice said:
Just cause Ho-oh isn't good in the uber metagame, doesn't mean he's OU. 50% chance of burn off 130 attack with 100 bp is nuts, and hes a better special wall than cresselia - better stats and roost. SR weakness can be roosted off.
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Ho-oh is not considered a threat because its overall performence in Ubers was poor and thus became a 'suspect'. You discover those general flaws that a Pokemon possess and imagine a performence in a lower-tier.

Look at the Lati@s duo, both are exeptional Ubers. It is a pity that Soul Dew ensures that they're too powerful for the OU metagame, or at least that's what we believe produces them into suitable Ubers, but people are discussing what they both would be like in OU without their items that raise both their Special Attack and Special Defense. A reason as to why both Latias and Latios are now considered 'suspects'.
 
Who doesn't use Def on Hariyama?

Max/neutral Ho-oh falls just short of a 2HKO with Sacred Fire on 252/252+ Def Guts Hariyama with Stealth Rock and Leftovers. Only Thick Fat Hariyama are that bulky anyways, and they run primarily defensive/support sets so I don't see Stone Edge being a problem, especially with the burn rate and Roost.

With min SAttk Ho-oh looks like it could pull that set off. Milotic could be a problem with Recover but para chance could help you there. Vaporeon is dead with Stealth Rock. Tentacruel takes three hits but what is it going to do back? I'd like to see some Hippowdon calcs but I gtg.
 
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