(Hi) Jump Kick

[Objection]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.​

Hi Jump Kick: The Pokemon leaps into the air and smashes its foot into the target. If the move misses, the user takes damage equal to 50% of what the attack would have done.

Attack Power: 13 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Jump Kick: The Pokemon attacks the opponent with a flying kick, foot outstretched. If the move misses, the attacking Pokemon takes recoil equal to 50% of the damage that would have been incurred.

Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

By RAW, these attacks do no self-damage to Ghost-types on a miss, even though in-game they do. Furthermore, in-game, the self-damage is not based on how much damage (Hi) Jump Kick would have done, nor does it make logical sense for the damage to be based on how much (Hi) Jump Kick would have done - common sense should tell you that Blaziken missing against an Empoleon and Blaziken missing against a Dragonite are going to hurt the same amount.

Now, in-game a missed (Hi) Jump Kick causes self-damage equal to half your max HP, which is far too much to be considered reasonable in ASB. However, to be closer to their in-game counterparts and to iron in some sensibility, I do believe the crash damage should be changed to a fixed amount, such as these:

[box]Hi Jump Kick: The Pokemon leaps into the air and smashes its foot into the target. If the move misses, the user takes fifteen (15) recoil damage.

Attack Power: 13 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Jump Kick: The Pokemon attacks the opponent with a flying kick, foot outstretched. If the move misses, the attacking Pokemon takes ten (10) recoil damage.

Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive[/box]

I made Hi Jump Kick's recoil greater because it's a more powerful move. However, the numbers can be tweaked.

So ... yeah. Do the Jump Kicks need to deal crash damage when targeting a Ghost? If so, should this be a fixed amount or should it be variable? Do the Jump Kicks need to be brought closer to their in-game counterparts or can they be allowed to deviate significantly from them? Discuss away!

 

[yoshinite]

I think you have this all set, and I can't think of any changes. I personally feel there is nothing to discuss as this is a very reasonable and much more sense-making buff to HJK.

 

[Frosty]

From Veekun (link) "Inflicts regular damage. If this move misses, is blocked by Protect or Detect, or has no effect, the user takes half the damage it would have inflicted in recoil. This recoil damage will not exceed half the user's max HP.".

50% the mons hp is the cap AFAIK. Sure, my playing experience comes from 4th Gen and Veekun may be wrong, but I think HJK recoil is half the damage it would have dealt capped at half the mon's hp.


Personally I think we are fine as is. From any anime point of view, it makes more sense than a fixed amount of damage.

 

[Stratos]

fuck you veekun

that was true through 3 and 4 gen, frosty, but no longer is accurate. obj is right. veekun is a shitty source of mechanics info anyway, seriously use any other website ever.

and from a logical point of view, scaled damage does not in fact make sense. If i jump at an aron and miss, why would crashing into a wall deal more damage than if i jumped at a scyther and missed?

 

[Frosty]

veekun is what the registration tower recommends <_<;.

The same way it doesn't make sense that Medicham, who delivers a far stronger kick (so it jumps higher and faster), suffers the same as lopunny.

TBH that qualifies as "why bother"? IMO. It will actually nerf HJK as it rarely surpasses 30hp of damage. Same way with JK and 20 damage (to a lesser extent).

 

[ZhengTann]

IMO , the easiest way to fix that issue is to just consider immunities through typing as a neutral typing for the purposes of recoil?

Supporting IAR on this. It works kinda like Roosting on an Earthquake (I know, roost removes the flying type altogether, so if you wanna dig deep like the pedant you should be, I'm ready for an argument somewhere in the future). Also, it does take into account both Pokemons' strengths and weaknesses, so Lopunny HJK-ing Kitsunoh is different from Medicham HJK-ing Gengar. Savvy?

 

[Objection]

veekun is what the registration tower recommends <_<;.

The same way it doesn't make sense that Medicham, who delivers a far stronger kick (so it jumps higher and faster), suffers the same as lopunny.

TBH that qualifies as "why bother"? IMO. It will actually nerf HJK as it rarely surpasses 30hp of damage. Same way with JK and 20 damage (to a lesser extent).

Veekun is recommended for checking Pokemon movepools, not for mechanics information. Ultimate Pokemon Center and Smogon Research threads are the best source for in-game mechanics information, trumping Veekun, Bulbapedia and Serebii, and both say the recoil is 50% of the user's maximum HP in-game - it's a constant value not affected by the strength of the attack.

It also doesn't make sense that Medicham takes less crash damage from missing versus a +Def Rhydon than it takes from missing a neutral-natured Rhydon - the kick is no more powerful against the latter.

And yes, I am aware that, with the current numbers, this is a nerf to the Jump Kicks. It could be made a buff if the numbers were lowered, but I don't believe that the moves need to be buffed. They just need to be made more consistent with in-game and they need to make more sense. You do believe that a move being inconsistent both logically and with in-game when being consistent with both would still retain game balance is a problem, right?

 

[zarator]

Personally I'd make it 12 for HJK and 8 for JK. Other than that, although from my point of view, "If the move misses" certainly includes hitting Ghost-types. The only thing we're asking to change here for real, I believe, is the recoil effect.

 

[Objection]

OK, since discussion is dying down in here, I am issuing a 24-hour warning and drafting this slate:

[box]Retain the current Jump Kick and Hi Jump Kick
Add clauses to Jump Kick and Hi Jump Kick that codify targeting a Ghost-type as missing and that Ghost typing is considered neutral when calculating crash damage
Change the crash damage to 8 for Jump Kick and 12 for Hi Jump Kick
Change the crash damage to 10 for Jump Kick and 15 for Hi Jump Kick[/box]

 

[Objection]

OK, discussion thread going down, voting thread going up.