Hey everybody! Hariyama is amazing!

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cim

happiness is such hard work
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So, you know how I hate threads that regurgitate the analysis on a Pokémon? I decided to be a huge hypocrite today for one of my favorite Pokémon in the OU metagame: Hariyama.

Hariyama is a really unique Pokémon. Apart from Machamp and Hitmontop, he's the only "defensive" Fighting type in the game. So let's take a moment to compare him defense-wise to his competition. X-Act's Base Stat Ratings tool gives Hariyama a Physical and Special Tankiness rating of 120 and 120, while Machamp earns a 113 and 119 respectively. Himontop earns a 98 and 112 respectively. So in terms of pure stats, Hariyama wins in the defensive department. This fails to factor in Thick Fat (arguably Hariyama's greatest asset), Whirlwind, and Knock Off access. While Hitmontop does get Rapid Spin and Mach Punch to compete movepool-wise, Hariyama still has better defenses.

Next, one might beg the question of what purpose would a Thick Fat defensive Fighting type serve? The primary (but not only) purpose is to be the best Tyranitar switch-in possible. With a resistance to both of Tyranitar's STAB moves as well as the occasional Fire Blast or Ice Beam, Hariyama enjoys the luxury of not being 2HKOed by anything Choice Band Tyranitar carries when running at least 76 HP EVs and maximized Defense + nature. (Earthquake falls short of a 2HKO even factoring the end of turn Sand Stream). Alternatively a 252 HP / 252 Def Adamant spread does essentially the same thing. From here, Hariyama scares the living shit out of Tyranitar with a STAB Force Palm (Basically Body Slam with Fighting STAB in exchange for less BP) or Cross Chop, both of which will OHKO with the remaining 180 EVs on the above set. Basically, Hariyama is the only Pokémon capable of switching in on every single set Tyranitar runs.

Hariyama's switch-in talents aren't limited to Tyranitar. Hariyama also "resists" both STAB moves of Weavile, making him a safe switch in. Choice Banded Aerial Ace is the only thing that remotely phases Hariyama, and that's fairly rarely seen in lieu of a Fighting attack. Houndoom's STAB moves are also both resisted by Hariyama, meaning he only has to fear a weak Hidden Power Fighting and serves as an excellent counter to him.

Continuing the extremely long list of Pokémon Hariyama can very easily switch in to, Infernape does little to Thick Fat Hariyama. Neither Close Combat nor a Nasty Plotted Grass Knot will reliably 2HKO the above Hariyama, and Force Palm + Life Orb damage (and CC defense drops) means that Infernape loses nearly every time. Since Hariyama enjoys the benefits of not being weak to anything Electivire can throw at him, he's a good switch in to him too. While he needs some Special Defense to really compete with Heatran, Hariyama is a great Fire resistance if for some reason your Snorlax or Blissey is unavailable. You know how Gliscor walls most Fighters? Hariyiama can Ice Punch him, getting rid of non-Aerial Ace variants with ease. Though Hariyama lacks useful resistances, he can ThunderPunch to hurt Gyarados. Hariyama is the only thing that can switch into BellyZard and win all the time (Double Edge, a rare move, will KO Both of them).

Finally, Hariyama is probably the best Curselax counter in the game. Combine STAB Cross Chop off of 120 attack (and high crit rate!) with Whirlwind and there's not much Snorlax can do to avoid an end to his sweep.

So what's Hariyama got in terms of a movepool? Off of his Base 120 Attack, his notable options include Force Palm (60 BP, 30% Paralysis chance), Cross Chop, Ice Punch, Stone Edge, Close Combat, Bullet Punch, ThunderPunch, and Payback. The notable moves are Ice Punch (useful for Garchomp and Fliers in general), Force Palm (A slightly stronger Body Slam when you factor in STAB), and ThunderPunch.

In terms of support, Hariyama's no slacker either. Whirlwind and Knock Off serve as a phazer and item-removing thingy. Also worth noting is, again, Force Palm, which will paralyze something every once in awhile.

So, overall, I've been playing with Hariyama more than I have any other Pokémon, and he should really start drifting into your thoughts more and more as you build a team. Just one slot buys you an excellent counter to all of the above Pokémon, plus with the elemental punches he can even wear down some other common offensive Pokémon: Garchomp and Gyarados. So yeah. Discuss!
 
I feel like a dick making such a short response to your epic Hariyanma shpeal, but I really feel like Hariyanma is one of those Pokemon that looks good on paper only. After it walls a Garchom or Bulkydose, its done. It just loses all of its gargantuan Hp stat to fast against Att bosted or CB poke and can't recover. Although I will admit it does have its uses. Mainly the element of surprise , well, at least when I used it.
 
I always overlooked Hariyama when choosing a fighting type for my team. I think one of the best things it has going for it is definitely Thick Fat. Its defensive capabilities are quite extensive when used right. Still, I haven't used one yet but may try it out in the near future.
 
@Ambitions: A lot of this is based on both calcs and personal usage of Hariyama over time. Hell, I've even used him in Ubers for a short while as he's the best thing I could think of to absorb status from Darkrai. He can use Rest / Sleep Talk / Force Palm / Ice Punch if you want recovery. It's too bad he doesn't get Slack Off, as that would make him an absolutely essential Pokémon IMO.
 
Does it get Stone Edge? If so, I'm sold. I want to test this over my RestTalk Machamp on my Offensive team.

Edit: Yeah I'm sold.
 
I've been using Hariyama for a while (on and off), I would have to say thick hat is one of the greatest things it has. Kind of like 2 extra resistances.
 
I actually used Hariyama on my first offensive teams way back in January. He used up a lot of switch ins. He is so darn bulky it's amazing. I love Thick Fat, my team had a horrible Weavile weak, and he fit in perfectly.

He does have a sweet movepool too. Neato priorities, nice array of Cross Chop, and Close Combat (actually that might ruin the point of "bulky"), the elemental punches, WW (for people begging for a phazer), and Knock Off which is always so useful.

He always contributed so much to that team, and I wouldn't mind making another team with him on it.

One of the few guys, I really first liked out of third gen.
 
You forgot to mention that neato Stealth Rock resistance. Honestly though, while Hariyama can be very useful on a team sometimes, he really has to "fit" in the team synergy to work; you can't slap a Hariyama on a team like you can a Garchomp. Definetely an overlooked pokemon, and can cover alot of weaknesses a team sometimes has. An asset to some teams, but not versatile enough to use on most teams.
 
Surprising you say that - hariyama fits into bulky sweeper category.

As a chomp counter, you could fix its ass by knock off, finding out what set it as - if its not life orb or leftovers, you can fix the brightpowder, yache, or salac, or even choice. Thats extremely pivotal with choice scarf, and telling if starmie can 2hko based on the presence of yache.

I've loved hariyama since advance, knowing full well its bulky properties.
 
Well said, Chris! I've encountered Hariyamas, and they were a pain to take out. It is also rather unpredictable, too. However in most cases we can assume that the opposing Hariyama's moveset would be structured as follows: Knock Off, Fighting move, Stone Edge / Elemental Punches, Third Move (Payback / Bullet Punch / Elemental Punches) / Support move.

As for other things that Hari can do, you forgot to mention Counter, which can work great in conjunction with Whirlwind (either buff up only to be phazed, or attack to be Countered). Also, even though in the analysis it says that Hariyama can't utilize Bulk Up, thanks to its tankish nature (high defense AND offense) combined with rich movepool, it can effectively set up and take advantages of the boosts very well (though, bulky psychics should be dealt with before setting up). Substitute + Bulk Up is a great combination.
 
I've been using hariyama since the beginning of d/p, and I'm ganna tell you rubes about it's STAB move.

Forcepalm isn't that great. You'll want to suck it's dick to start off with, until you come to the shocking realization that hariayama outspeeds zilch with paralysis support and it could do so much more damage with something else. So what else is there that's notable?

Cross Chop
No.

Close Combat
Awesome if you're not running bulky.

Force Palm
No.

Dynamic Punch
No.

Reversal
Maybe, but we'll be safe and go with no.

Brick Break
Yes. With 112.5 base power (STAB) running off 100 accuracy and 15 PP, this is a more optimal STAB choice.

Vital Throw
No.

Rock Smash
No.

Focus Blast
No.

Focus Punch
This is absolutely fine, nay, awesome, but sucks on defensive sets.

Wake-Up Slap
N-N-No.

Revenge
Yes. This is my personal favorite when dealing with hariyama, as it gets you 180 base power if you take a hit and go last, the same as STAB close combat. An awesome move on hariyama, as it really brings out his attacking potential, rather than waste it on dropping speed.

Another notable set;

Hariyama@ Flame Orb
Guts
252 Atk/252 Def/6 HP (EVs aren't set in stone)
Adamant

Fake Out
Bullet Punch
Close Combat
Facade

This set makes hariyama similar to swellow, albeit much slower and stronger. It has stronger STAB, fake out, priority, and an ability to sponge hits much better than swellow. A set that takes advantage of guts. Credit to disfunction

While I do have preference to BB and Revenge, try out your own STAB moves and find a favorite, and if you really want paralysis, slap thunderwave on blissey or cresselia or whatever.
 
DeLorean said:
I've been using hariyama since the beginning of d/p, and I'm ganna tell you rubes about it's STAB move.

Forcepalm isn't that great. You'll want to suck it's dick to start off with, until you come to the shocking realization that hariayama outspeeds zilch with paralysis support and it could do so much more damage with something else. So what else is there that's notable?
Click to expand...

The paralysis support isn't for Hariyama; it doesn't matter what he won't outspeed. Damaging paralysis that hits Garchomp is very good team support even without using Knock Off.
 
30% par chance is VERY good. I do admit, 60 base power sucks ass, though, so Hariyama may not be dishing much damage on its own.

Cross Chop is perfectly viable on Hariyama btw; although Reversal's double power is just as attractive, but then I'd rather use Counter when facing a physical pokemon.
 
Posting to say Hariyama is a very good Pokemon and one of the most underrated threats in the game.

Thick Fat alone helps this switch into other stuff like Heatran and Infernape as well (especially since most Hariyama are mostly physically defensively oriented so even those Life Orb Close Combats don't hurt too much), and then the fact that it is one of the few Tyranitar counters helps a lot as well.

I actually used Close Combat on my defensive RestTalk Hariyama simply because I found the accuracy and the 20% increase in power to be a lot more useful than the staying power that no defensive drops would give you, as I found myself mostly switching in, moving once and then switching out with Hariyama.

Ice Punch is currently my fourth move as Garchomp is a ridiculous threat that I cannot afford to allow to switch in, but once the Garchomp-less ladder is made I'll probably just switch to Stone Edge to hit Zapdos and Gyarados harder on the switch.

Also, to add my arbitrary fanboy opinion...I really hope they give Hariyama Slack Off in the third game...it isn't really like Snorlax where giving it Slack Off (with Immunity) would potentially cause huge rifts in the metagame, but giving Hariyama Slack Off makes it that much more able to absorb status, as now I would consider a Slack Off Sleep Talk Close Combat Ice Punch / Stone Edge set with Guts. Or you could just keep the standard and run Stone Edge and Ice Punch together with just Slack Off. But of course...it's probably just a fanboy's dream ;_;
 
Well I was already considering Hariyama on my new team, but this pretty much decides this. With you pointing out all the good things about it, how could I say no?
 
I would like to put in more of a response in this thread since Hariyama is a great Pokemon but I can't -_-.

However I do want to say that Hariyama fits almost perfectly into stall teams that involve Zapdos. A defensive core of Zapdos/Celebi/Hariyama/Starmie is tough to take down. With those unique resistances Hariyama just becomes "The Pokemon" to use with Zapdos.
 
Uh, Hariyama's Speed isn't so slow that it doesn't outspeed things when they're paralyzed. It's 136, so that means something paralyzed needs 544 Speed to still beat him when paralyzed. So DeLorean, that's a ridiculous argument.

I've used Hariyama forever too. Force Palm and Cross Chop are the moves I prefer personally, and I can see the merits of Close Combat. Revenge makes sense if you're into CC's power without the defense drop, I guess.

By the way, I thought that the Flame Orb set was alredy proposed somewhere. I kinda hate it. An unSTABed priority move and no Speed? No thanks, even with Fake Out.

The main problem with Bulk Up is that Hariyama has no recovery. This makes it really hard to tank with the move, though it's still a decent option.

Which is better: 76 HP / 180 Atk / 252 Def Impish or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def Adamant?

This was a question asked on the main Shoddy chat yesterday. So lemme answer this. First spread stats:
448 HP
321 Atk
240 Def

Second spread stats:
492 HP
303 Atk
219 Def

So with Spread 2 you get less Attack and Defense in exchange for more HP. Now let's see how well they take, say, a CBTar EQ:

The first spread takes 40.4 - 47.7% damage. The second takes 40.2 - 47.5 % damage. So the defensive value is basically the same. Since you can accomplish the same thing with more Attack in the first spread, the Adamant spread is inferior here.
 
Is the people don't use Hariyama, because it can't hit Gengar that much, and it's too slow for Reversal and attacking. He's just ment to Counter back physical attacks?
 
DeLorean said:
I'm trying to keep it more tailored to defensive sets, where you can't really gamble on accuracy.
Click to expand...

IMO its bulkiness makes gambling on accuracy a little more acceptable since it can usually take a hit if Cross Chop happens to miss. Lack of reliable recovery is its biggest downfall; relying on Rest-Talk limits Hari's versatility with only 2 remaining moveslots.
 
Hariyama is amazing. Even the Resttalk version is deadly. Along with being the best Tyranitar counter known to man, he can even wall Heatran with proper investment. I wouldn't rule out Cross Chop on a defensive set either- Rest+Sleep Talk can preserve the PP of Cross Chop enough to make the PP advantage of Force Palm negligable.

@ 133tSneasel: Hariyama is a great pokemon- he just doesn't have reliable recovery and can't fit every move that he needs into his moveset. That being said, Cross Chop+Ice Punch offers great coverage.

I find it quite ironic that if you put an extra 32 Evs in Hp as compared to standard spread, then you are guaranteed to survive a Yachechomp SD Outrage (or a Jolly Scarfchomp Outrage twice), if anyone questions his bulkiness. Then you can proceed to hit them with an Ice Punch, which will OHKO if you knock off his Yache Berry first. With Yache, Ice Punch usually does about 54%. I've used Hariyama as a last-resort Garchomp counter before, and it works pretty well.

Hariyama is already marginally better than Machamp at taking hits, perhaps the better Blissey counter out of the two (although both do a good job at it, just Seismic toss hurts Hariyama less). In terms of a bulky fighting type, Hariyama is the best out there. Hopefully, through this thread people become more aware of him.
 
Kingdrom said:
Hariyama is already better than Machamp, perhaps the better Blissey counter out of the two (although both do a good job at it, just Seismic toss hurts Hariyama less). In terms of a bulky fighting type, Hariyama is the best out there. Hopefully, through this thread people become more aware of him.
Click to expand...

I love Hari as much as the next guy but I think you're selling Machamp a little short. No Guard Dynamicpunch is no laughing matter (when it comes to Pokemon at least). Hari beats it in the utility department but overall, superior offense > superior utility IMO.
 
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