Helping Hand on a combo

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<~Onion_Bubs> I give staying on topic a 10 out of 10 right now.
I agree, so let's stay on topic, k? We wouldn't want anyone to get any warnings for derailment now would we.​

Let's see what exactly is the cause of all this.
Frosty said:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-subway-challenge-frosty.3450880/page-7: Subway doubles. On all battles, a mon fell (or close to that) due to a helping handed combo. On one battle the opposing team was defeated from 100 to 0 in two actions.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-arcade-challenge-frosty.3477405/page-5 Arcade triples. On all normal battles a mon fell on the first round due to helping handed combo. On some rounds, 2 fell this way. On a round with 2 actions.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/not-another-6v6-frosty-vs-gerard.3484399/ Triples vs Gerard. On every round I ordered last, one mon fell with little effort.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/electric-leader-dogfish44-vs-challenger-frosty.3483951/ Two mons (pretty much) defeated with a lovely Helping Hand on Fissure + Earthquake.
Click to expand...
As things stand, if a Pokemon uses Helping Hand on its ally using a combo, it may have to pay a lot of energy but the team can get the strength of effectively two combos with only one cooldown.

Suggestions have been put forward in the feedback thread already, including making Helping Hand not work when used on a combo, making Helping Hand only boost one move in the combo, reducing Helping Hand's boost on combos to +50%, and forcing the Helping Hand user to cool down if they boost a combo. There might be more possible solutions out there and such suggestions are welcome, as well as critiquing suggested solutions and determining whether anything actually needs to be done or not.

So what are we waiting for? Discuss!
 
The fact of the matter is that it's simply impossible to react to a Helping Hand when ordering first in doubles. It's what makes Doubles such a risky format to play right now--you can't adequately sub against Helping Hand. If you -do- sub against Helping Hand, they can just Helping Hand bubble or something and make you waste precious actions.

Doubles substitutions as a whole need looking at, but Helping Hand is egregious because of its power combined (huehue) with its exclusivity and flexibility. It's not like, say, Taunt where you can go "If you are targeted with Taunt, Magic Coat and push down." Helping Hand can thwart substitutions against itself with little effort.
 
Gerard's idea can be simply implemented by putting CT: None in HH, which was discussed last time. Also, I'm leaning towards forcing the Helping Hand user to cool down if they boost a combo. It forces any player to think carefully before they use that tactic, while at the same time, we're not shutting it out of the way. Banning HH on a combo seems too harsh IMHO, I'm fine with just nerfing it without shutting it outright.
 
I think the idea of forcing the use of Helping Hand on a combo to also cause a cooldown is worth exploration. It basically makes HHing a combo completely inferior to just using a combo on both mons unless the second just has no useful moves. I mean yeah you can still do some pretty immense damage ordering second in Doubles+ but it's really only good for a killshot else both your mons will be left helpless for an action.
 
I am totally fine with banning HH + Combo outright. It means that you can play doubles without losing a mon on the first round if you're smart, instead of it being a foregone conclusion that you will lose at least one lead.
 
I think CT: None should absolutely be the way we go with this, its the process we've taken with other broken moves before such as Endeavor.

I'm not sold on whether we should remove the ability to boost a combo outright because that's an inherent part of the move as opposed to forcing a cool down for Helping Hand boosting a combo and I'd like to see more discussion in that direction.
 
I don't think it is necessary to ban HH+HH combos. Due to the way it is calc'd and the fact that the mons has to have enough energy, a HH+HH combo won't work when the original move/combo has more than 22.57 initial BAP (that results in 100 energy being spent).

Which isn't enough to warrant so much worry IMO, since most Hyper Beam/Giga Impact/Focus Punch/OHKO moves combos go over that and for same-moves combo to work it needs to have less than 4.44 energy cost. And you usually can get more cost-efficiency with other actions.


I feel that our problem resumes to HH on combos and something needs to be done about it. I personally feel that the best option is to make Helping Hand work only on one move from the combo. That way it keeps being a strategic option, without being outright broken and without messing too much with mechanics in case of a hh combo or something like that. Forcing a cooldown work as well. Outright banning the usage is also possible, but I feel that we shouldn't do that just yet, since that means you will remove one strategic option (hh on combos) from the equation, while there are still untested ways that can reach the (pretty much) same results without removing it totally.
 
Frosty said:
I personally feel that the best option is to make Helping Hand work only on one move from the combo.
Click to expand...

I am in favor of either this, or nerfing Helping Hand's BAP multiplier when applied to combo moves.

The thing about Helping Hand combinations is that they are simply too powerful, and they lack diminishing returns of any sort. Combinations tend to be weaker than two individual moves used on separate action to balance out the raw damage or utility you can manage in a single action. However, this is not the case with how Helping Hand boosts combinations, as the power roughly scales the same way an ordinary move would.

This allows for what we see today in what many might call 'cheap tactics'. Ordering second is already significant advantage for the trainer. We should not allow this advantage to be compounded by the fact that any skilled trainer would have to waste a sub on "Helping Hand combination" or something or rather simply to prevent a ORKO, or even a OAKO.

tl;dr Helping Hand's boost in combinations should scale the way combinations do: with diminishing returns for a higher energy cost. Otherwise, Second Orderer almost always has a powerful trump card to use against less careful opponents.
 
In my opinion, the best course of action is to ban the use of Helping Hand on combination moves. Combination moves are already much more disruptive in doubles than they are singles, to the point you can obliterate a single Pokemon if you order second with relatively little effort.

Remember also that it is harder to sub against it, because many moves you would not have to sub against in Singles are moves you may want to sub against in Doubles. Some examples are obvious - say, Wide Guard - but some are a bit more deceptive. For example, if I'm attacking a Pokemon with damaging moves, I don't really need to sub for Protect, because it is a losing move for the opponent on almost any situation (save for stuff like Yawn or Trick Room). However, in Doubles using Protect even on a damaging move can be gamebreaking, as the partner can just take you out in the process.

Bottom line is, the proposed nerfs may rise the cost in terms of opportunity, but they don't disrupt the lethal impact of Helping Hand on combos (namely, you can't afford subbing against them when battling a Pokemon with a maxxed or nearly maxxed movepool, regardless of the species). Besides, banning this doesn't reduce the amount of strategic thinking on either side. Will you use (or sub against) Helping Hand, or a combination move? Or will you attempt something else? There's still a lot to decide and to predict, and given the fast-paced nature of Doubles, I doubt the power creep caused by HH + combos is necessary or even healthy.

EDIT: I give Onion_Bubs's promotion to Forum Moderator a 9 out of 10 right now.
 
Something I just noticed which idk if many of you have, even with a Helping Hand Cooldown at the end of the action, if you manage to eliminate even one of your enemies, haven't you gained that extra turn back and more, first you've got to consider that if any mon is KOed A1 or A2 then you effectively gained all the actions that it just didn't take (you know, being unconscious and all that), even in matches in which you manage to "only" render one of the opponents useless unless the opponent manages to eliminate BOTH of your pokemon in one round (not impossible but it REQUIRES the other person to have either a great typing/damage advantage or Helping Hand itself) to regain the advantage, otherwise if he just eliminates one then the net gain is 0 and now it's your turn to go second so you can regain the lead.

---------------​

Looking at Frosty's suggestion the combos that benefit the most (or actually the ones that lose the less) with such a change would be the ones in which one moves boost the BP of the other by a mutiplier (x1.5, x2.0, etc..)

Examples: (The HH move is bolded in each case)​
  • Astonish + Lick = (4 + 10) * 2 = 28 BP vs 32 BP
  • Constrict + Wring Out = 4 + (24 * 2) = 52 BP vs 56 BP
  • Ember + Heat Wave = 4 + (20 * 1.5) = 34 [25.5] BP vs 38 [28.5] BP
  • Gust + Razor Wind = (4 + 16) * 2 = 40 BP [30] vs 48 [36] BP
  • Pound + Focus Punch = 4 + (30 * 1.5) = 49 BP vs 52.5 BP
  • Powder Snow + Blizzard = 4 + (22 * 1.5) = 37 [27.75] BP vs 41 [30.75]
  • ThunderShock + Discharge = 4 + (16 * 1.5) = 28 [21] BP vs 32 [24]
  • Gust + Leaf Tornado = (4 + 14) * 2 = 36 [27] BP vs 44 [33] BP
  • Vine Whip + Power Whip = 4 + (24 * 1.5) = 40 BP vs 44 BP
  • Water Gun + Water Spout = 4 + (30 * 1.5) = 49 [36.75] BP vs 53 [39.75] BP
The power decrease is not that much when you look at it, so it could be both good (making sure this is still a viable strategy if you have the right poke/moves) or bad (not really fixing the problem with helping hand combos still being ridiculously easy to abuse), now, looking at Same Move combinations then it gets interesting since the formula would basically turn into: ((BAP * 2) + BAP) * 1.125 (this is actually one the the things I really dislike about this proposal though, it complicates a lot of the calculations and it's easy to mess up

Examples: (The HH move is bolded in each case)​
  • Earthquake^2 = (20 + 10) * 1.125 = 33.75 [25.3125] BP vs 45 [33.75] BP
  • Eruption^2 = (30 + 15) * 1.125 = 50.625 [37.96875] BP vs 67.5 [50.625] BP
  • Explosion ^2 = (50 + 25) * 1.125 = 84.375 [63.28125] BP vs 112.5 [84.375] BP
As you can see this combos that use to be the nightmare of everyone ordering second are reduced to 75% of their original power, this is interesting considering the energy cost that you need to pull each of them and each combo now does significantly less damage than using the move twice with HH on both uses (2x vs 1.6875x), this makes me think this as a good idea, even if it makes everything a bit more complicated, I like the strategic approach about thinking more about your own combinations rather than just slap a Same Move Combo and just call it a day (and still win) along with the fact that you now need to be careful to which move you boost in case this might change the type of the combo, and while I still think Helping Hand should only increase BP by 1.5x on combination attacks this is another proposal the end result would be EXACTLY the same, the BP of SAC decreases to 75% of the current damage output while damaging less weak move combos / creative combos / different move combos. Right now the only concerns I have against this proposal are the aforementioned issue about it being so complicated and the fact that Priority Combos are mostly unaffected, Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Quick Attack, those moves are never used for their power, they're used to give another mon one last hit on another one, and their BP is virtually unaffected (overall it reduces the BP of this combos by 2), which is something I found annoying since I've always disliked this kind of combos because their ability to turn a 2 HP mon into a bomb, though I guess that's another discussion entirely, otherwise this proposal looks solid.

PS: HH+HH combos seem fine, the energy is just too much while the end result isn't worth it in the slightest
 
I just want to get this out there...

Helping Hand + Helping Hand combos are perfectly fine, & there is no reason to change Helping Hand's CT to None. The must have enough energy clause (similarly implemented to Endeavour) means the absolute maximum adjusted BAP threshold a Helping Hand + Helping Hand can boost to is precisely 45 + 1/7 BAP. This means assuming Helping Hand + Helping Hand quadruples the BAP of a move, you can only legally use Helping Hand + Helping Hand on a move or combination with an initial BAP of up to precisely 11 + 2/7 BAP.
((12+(BAP÷2)×2)×1.75)=100
(12+(BAP÷2)×2)=57.142
((BAP÷2)×2)=45.142
(BAP÷2)=22.571
BAP=45.142
Therefore, the idea of calling Helping Hand for CT: None based on a combining the move with itself is pretty much superfluous & unnecessary. The council implemented the aforementioned clause to Helping Hand earlier this year precisely to stop Helping Hand + Helping Hand form becoming broken by artificially lowering the threshold that you can use the combination on safely drastically (Also to remove the BEC can of worms), effectively rendering the use of the combination itself nothing more than a stupid idea, same with Endeavour + Endeavour.

As for the usage of Helping Hand on a combination, I would be fine with adding a clause preventing Helping Hand from being used on combinations. zarator & several other pro-ban on combination users mostly cover my points, but there is also the trade-off with forcing a cooldown on Helping Hand users, or raising the EC of Helping Hand on combinations, etc. Basically, "It does not matter if I get a cooldown or have 1 EN after this, as long as I KO the target I need to KO to make it well worth the risk." At that point, the nerf only seems very minor at best, and we are effectively back to square one on this issue. The changing the multiplier suggestions seem to be more legitimate than the cooldown-esque (and similar) solution, but I would still want to see a ban, imo.
 
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Guys, this isn't about combos of Helping Hand + Helping Hand. As Its_A_Random says above, we already dealt with that issue. This is about combos being boosted by Helping Hand, and changing Helping Hand's CT to None or reducing the multiplier increase on HH+HH but not on just HH does not resolve the issue.

Any more posts about Helping Hand + Helping Hand risk being deleted.
 
Frosty said:
I feel that our problem resumes to HH on combos and something needs to be done about it. I personally feel that the best option is to make Helping Hand work only on one move from the combo.
Click to expand...

I support this, but how would it work on same-move combos? After all, there are a ton of same-move combos that work really well with Helping Hand, like for example Leaf Storm + Leaf Storm.

My proposal for this issue is having Helping Hand's increase changed (read: decreased to a more reasonable value) for same-move combos, and implement the "only work on one part of the combo" thing with combos of different moves.

How much do we nerf Helping Hand's boost? Well, I'm not too good with theorymoning, but 1.5* seems reasonable instead of 2*.

EDIT: A big thank you to Box (who is using Aquarium as his nick on #capasb)!
16:13 Aquarium Canis by HH targetting a single move
16:13 Aquarium Obviously it means that it targets one of the two moves in a
same-attack combo.
16:16 Aquarium OrigBAP * 2.25
16:16 Aquarium Is the same as
16:16 Aquarium
BAP1 * 1.125 + BAP2 * 1.125
16:18 Aquarium As opposed to BAP * 4.5
16:18 Aquarium we have
16:18 Aquarium BAP * 2.25 + BAP * 1.125
16:18 Aquarium Which simplifies to
16:19 Aquarium er
16:19 Aquarium BAP * 3.375
16:19 Aquarium Correct me if I'm wrong
16:20 Aquarium Yes.
16:20 Aquarium So there you go.
16:20 Aquarium Which is actually the same as Helping Hand multiplier = x1.5
--
So, due to this, nothing really has to be changed about Frosty's proposal!
 
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Actually I was thinking that same-move combos are combos with two moves (Fire Blast + Fire Blast). Only one gets doubled resulting on a combo of a 24bap move and 12bap move, making the calc the same of different-move combos as far as power and energy goes.

Regardless, a ballot:

Ballot said:
a)Keep Helping Hand as is
b)Make it illegal to use Helping Hand on combos
c)Helping Hand on a combo requires a cooldown after
d)Helping Hand will work on one of the moves of the combo
e)Helping Hand boosts combo only by 1.5 instead of 2.0
Click to expand...

If d is chosen:

ballot 2 said:
a) Same-Move combos remain the same (x2)
b) Same-Move combos are boosted only by 1.5 instead of 2
c) One of the moves of a Same-Move Combo gets boosted and it becomes a Different-Move Combo, being calc'd as such.
Click to expand...

24h warning before voting. If you have anything to add, please do so.
 
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