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Heavy Offense

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RaikouLover said:
No, it is indeed true that heavy offense reliably beats most forms of stall (if done right). That is why its so common on the ladder.
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I'm not so sure about that as when I ladder with stall I find myself outright shutting down HO most of the time.

I use two phazers along with a WoW rotom and like most terrible HO players they just switch in then blindly stat up as they are sent packing for my entry hazards to add up even more.
 
I might as well start using a team with two scarfers on the ladder as it's beginning to feel like I am only playing againt HO it is getting so bad that I hardly even want to get on the OU ladder.

Either make more innovative HO teams or find something else to ladder with, it's getting old.
 
Physical HO isn't necessarily a guaranteed win against stall since most stall teams are basically built to shut you down with 4-5 physical walls, including guys with phazing ability (Skarm, Gyarados, Swampert, Hippowdon) or Taunt (Gliscor). On the other hand, they frequently lean heavily or exclusively on Blissey to stop special attackers, which works to your advantage in special HO because Blissey sucks; she kills you very slowly, can't phaze, and can be worn down with patience and setup guys or Toxic Spikes, or simply destroyed with Explosion or boosted Focus Blasts. Latias and Tyranitar can theoretically pack Roar, but they're weak to your attacks and are comparatively rare on stall teams anyway. I am not a particularly strong player, but I pretty consistently beat stall (including stall played by people much higher rated than me) with special HO unless I play like crap or my opponent is named IPL. Semistall is actually a much rougher matchup because of scarfers, and because no amount of good teambuilding or play skill can stop Iron Head from flinching you out of the game, but it's not really any harder than other opponents with Scarfers.
 
After subbing Manaphy in for Suicune I was astonished. Here's a log from the first and only battle I fought with it after subbing it in, and it's a monster. I'll probably play with it more later. Honestly, I think this could just be the one to popularize bulky HO.

Code: 
  Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Soul Dew Clause
chaos1 sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Clam sent out Rogue ZZ (lvl 100 Azelf).
Rogue ZZ used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Rogue ZZ lost 35% of its health.
---
Rogue ZZ used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Rogue ZZ lost 38% of its health.
Metagross's attack was raised.
---
Rogue ZZ used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Rogue ZZ lost 28% of its health.
Clam's Rogue ZZ fainted.
---
Clam switched in Manaphy (lvl 100 Manaphy).
Manaphy used Substitute.
Manaphy lost 25% of its health.
Manaphy made a substitute!
Metagross used Earthquake.
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Manaphy used Tail Glow.
Manaphy's special attack was sharply raised.
Metagross used Earthquake.
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy's substitute faded!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Manaphy used Substitute.
Manaphy lost 25% of its health.
Manaphy made a substitute!
Metagross used Earthquake.
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Manaphy used Tail Glow.
Manaphy's special attack was sharply raised.
Metagross used Earthquake.
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy's substitute faded!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Manaphy used Substitute.
Manaphy lost 25% of its health.
Manaphy made a substitute!
Metagross used Earthquake.
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy's substitute faded!
Manaphy's reflect wore off!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
Manaphy lost 14% of its health.
Manaphy used Surf.
Metagross lost 99% of its health.
Manaphy's light screen wore off!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
Manaphy lost 16% of its health.
Manaphy used Substitute.
Manaphy lost 25% of its health.
Manaphy made a substitute!
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy used Surf.
Metagross lost 1% of its health.
chaos1's Metagross fainted.
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
chaos1 switched in Latias (lvl 100 Latias ?).
Pointed stones dug into Latias.
Latias lost 12% of its health.
Latias used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Manaphy!
Manaphy's substitute faded!
Manaphy used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Latias lost 88% of its health.
chaos1's Latias fainted.
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
chaos1 switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
Manaphy lost 21% of its health.
Manaphy used Surf.
Scizor lost 88% of its health.
chaos1's Scizor fainted.
Manaphy's leftovers restored its health a little!
Manaphy restored 6% of its health.
---
chaos1 switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Suicune.
Suicune lost 12% of its health.
Manaphy used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Suicune lost 49% of its health.
Suicune used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Manaphy lost 11% of its health.
Clam's Manaphy fainted.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Clam switched in Jirachi (lvl 100 Jirachi).
Jirachi used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Suicune lost 45% of its health.
chaos1's Suicune fainted.
---
chaos1 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Clam switched in Dragon Sky (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dragon Sky's Intimidate cut Heatran's attack!
Heatran used Flamethrower.
It's not very effective...
Dragon Sky lost 29% of its health.
Heatran lost 10% of its health.
---
chaos1 switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gliscor.
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Dragon Sky used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Gliscor...
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Clam switched in Megaman (lvl 100 Rotom-w).
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
A critical hit!
Megaman lost 43% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
chaos1 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Megaman used Light Screen.
A barrier was formed!
---
Heatran used Flamethrower.
Megaman lost 34% of its health.
Heatran lost 10% of its health.
Megaman used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
---
Clam switched in Dragon Sky (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dragon Sky's Intimidate cut Heatran's attack!
Heatran used Flamethrower.
It's not very effective...
Dragon Sky lost 15% of its health.
Heatran lost 10% of its health.
---
Dragon Sky used Dragon Dance.
Dragon Sky's attack was raised.
Dragon Sky's speed was raised.
Heatran used Explosion.
Dragon Sky lost 46% of its health.
chaos1's Heatran fainted.
---
chaos1 switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gliscor.
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Dragon Sky used Dragon Claw.
Gliscor lost 47% of its health.
Gliscor used Roost.
Gliscor restored 50% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Dragon Sky used Roost.
Dragon Sky restored 50% of its health.
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
Gliscor's attack missed!
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 4% of its health.
---
Dragon Sky used Dragon Claw.
Gliscor lost 45% of its health.
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Dragon Sky lost 22% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Dragon Sky used Dragon Dance.
Dragon Sky's attack was raised.
Dragon Sky's speed was raised.
Gliscor used Roost.
Gliscor restored 39% of its health.
Dragon Sky's light screen wore off!
---
Dragon Sky used Roost.
Dragon Sky restored 50% of its health.
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
Gliscor's attack missed!
Dragon Sky's reflect wore off!
---
Dragon Sky used Dragon Claw.
Gliscor lost 62% of its health.
Gliscor used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Dragon Sky lost 47% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
chaos1 has left the room.
Clam wins!
Clam: gg
 
As with most teams, matchups are highly dependant on skill level. HO teams like the one posted in the OP will have a hard time with stall because everything is walled by different stuff. Good HO teams played by good HO players (I like to think of myself as in this group :p) should have a favorable matchup against stall, although it is still only about 60-40 or so.

Evisu says that his phazers and entry hazards shut down HO, but that is far from the truth. If done properly, you should never have time to set up hazards, and phazing should result in a quick 2-hko. Generally the first things to die on opposing stall teams are their phazers, because they soon realize that they will have to spam roar/ww to stop me from setting up on them, and then when I attack instead they get 2hkod by successive stab/supereffective moves. It is much more complicated than you give it credit for being.

For an example, I played a game against Krack (with no hax involved) where he gave me one free turn, and I made one predict, and I won (well, I would have if I hadn't misclicked and bullet punched his jirachi instead of bug biting :p) The scenario that resulted in me opening up his team was me bringing in my scizor on his lead pert, sding as he stealth rocked (the mistake), him switching to skarm to take the bug bite, and then me predicting a switch to rotom and bug biting again accordingly. This caused his skarmory to die when he brought it back in, brought his rotom to 40%, and would have taken 45-50% off of jirachi if I hadn't misclicked, which would have allowed lucario to take the game in the end. Unfortunately this didn't happen and jirachi fire punched my lucario and ended the game with ~22% after my extremespeed, resulting in a 1-0 loss, but the point stands. The matchup really comes down to the stall player playing perfectly, winning the speed ties, and not getting critted at all, assuming the HO player does what they should.
 
I probably should start laddering again. :p

Anyway, it's not just Azelf and five sweepers. Stall should have more trouble with regular HO than HO should be having with stall, like Anachronism said. With Manaphy introduced now, I honestly think people are going to start abusing it with DS, and +2 boosting capabilities as well as speed (which makes a huge difference) and bulk IMO make it more dangerous than Scizor is now.

I might test Suicune+manaphy on the same team to see how well they can break each other's counters. It just might work.

Oh, and Manaphy solves that problem I have with pseudo hazers hitting extremely hard as they switch in. I was the missing link on my team all along. :)
 
Taunt gyrados is a good way for HO to break stall imo(waterfall+return for reliability), as long as you have something to pursuit rotom to death. Gliscor also works.
 
I tried Gliscor, and disdain it simply because SD Gliscor really doesn't have the power, priority, or speed to be worth it. It can't really break a stall, and is too easily revenged by things like Starmie and Latias, not to forget the ubiquitous Scizor, and even Jolly Ice Punch Lucario in a supreme act of irony. Also, it shares typing with Salamence and Dragonite, which is unfortunate. I would rather pick the latter two over Gliscor.
 
Gliscor is a good Swords Dance Sweeper actually with SD, EQ, SE, and Night Slash and an Orb. And no, Lucario doesn't revenge it what the fuck?
 
RaikouLover said:
Gliscor is a good Swords Dance Sweeper actually with SD, EQ, SE, and Night Slash and an Orb. And no, Lucario doesn't revenge it what the fuck?
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Jolly Ice Punch Lucario can revenge Adamant Gliscor. As for the sweeper itself, I just found the power and speed kind of disappointing, and I was often wishing I had a DDMence or DDGyara there instead of it.
 
It's entirely logical to use gyra and gliscor since they compliment each other perfectly. Most gliscors would run a speed nature just in case of jolly lucario, a +2 EQ is going to ko it no matter what.
 
There are few disadvantages to using Adamant. First of all, anything more than 220 speed evs (slightly more than enough needed to outspeed jolly lucario), is a complete waste, as the only things that hang out here are electivire (which is rare, and almost always adamant) and other Gliscor, whose defensive sets don't pose much of a threat to you. Jolly Lucario only accounts for 28% of lucario usage, and ice punch is only on 16% of sets, and he will have a hard time threatening you without ice punch, while 6.7% hace hp ice. This means that, assuming that ice attacks are just as likely to appear on jolly sets as anywhere else, only approx. 6.4% of lucario are jolly + ice punch, and therefore less than 1% of teams have it. non-scarf timid rotom (basically charge beam) and +speed 85s also hang around this speed, but rotom has nothing much to hit you with, and base 85s that choose to fully invest are rare. Most settle for beating Adamant Lucario. Adamant Gliscor outspeeds everything hovering around adamant lucario's speed, so you really don't need to worry about anything common outspeeding you. The question is is the extra power all the time worth the peace of mind of knowing you will always outspeed pokemon X. it is sort of like the difference between shed shell and leftovers on skarm/forry, or fire blast on heatran. Is it worth losing a small chunk of the time to have better damage/recovery all of the time?
 
Wow, I'm seeing more copies of your team Anachronism. One thing I noticed, though, was that the team does have some issues with stall. I've played someone using your team and won 5-1 (he fled lol). It could just be that he doesn't know how to use it, though. Basically, my Skarm started phazing everything as they tried attacking it, and they couldn't do much back, especially with the bulk in stall. I'm pretty sure most HO teams subbing entry hazards for DS will have trouble with stall like Anachronism's team. Otherwise, HO seems to handle stall pretty well. I'm seeing this as a trade off for the ability to beat revengers in exchange for a weakness to stall. This might be able to be filled in somehow, though.
 
Somebody might have already mentioned this, but one of the best (if not already considered THE best) moves in the game is Substitute, and strong attackers using Substitute + 3 attacks can be game breaking, as often you can break your counters or simply kill of Scarfers trying to revenge you. Substitute gives you a free turn when they try to status you as well. Using a team consisting of Pokemon using Substitute on the switch might be pretty effective, as heavy offense is forcing switches everywhere, and the oppurtunity is just as omnipresent.

I think a Pokemon that would be welcome on Heavy Offense is Life Orb Starmie. Powerful Hydro Pumps, good coverage, Recover, and Rapid Spin if need be, along with Natural Cure to scout status, Starmie also has the speed to pull it off. Along with the whole "attacking immediately" thing. Starmie is also a perfect Blissey and Latias lure, which Scizor or Tyranitar get a switch in on and will set up or kill them off.

About what Sprinkles said about "Heavy Offense not requiring prediction", in a way, if you want those surprise KOs when you attack instead of immediately trying to set up (which can be bad and stupid as Scarfers will kill your setup Pokemon fast), predicting the probably type of the Pokemon switching in is more important than one might think.

Mixed attackers like Infernape should always find a place on Heavy Offense obviously, especially the whole, 'Explosion given to Magnezone and Heatran to kill Blissey' thing. Another thing is to have Pokemon that have the ability to beat their own checks. Examples include Latias with HP Fire, Mixed Lucario with HP Ice...

Being that I didn't read every single post, only the first couple and the ones preceding me, everything I said might have already been mentioned, so sorry if I had a redundant thread.

Nice idea Sprinkles! Glad you've decided to perhaps stay =D
We need you here kicking our hopeless asses. xD
 
Hm, that is rather interesting Metagross66. I have only seen maybe 5 people use it, but it is certainly getting some attention :) While I don't have especial trouble with stall, the team does lend itself to being beaten by it more easily than other HO teams I have seen/used, and this has a lot to do with outrages being easy for stall teams to set up on.

While the matchup is in no way easy, you certainly can't just set up and spam random attacks and hope to win. You need to know when it is appropriate to switch (essentially whenever the opponent cannot set up and there is negligable risk in switching), when it is appriate to statup or attack, when it is appropriate to sac what is out, and when it is appropriate to switch to something to sac. People pretend that making/playing HO teams is easy and mindless, but any team is mindless to play once you know how to play it! In my opinion, HO has a very steep learning curve to start with, and then things get pretty easy, but you still have to start with a good team.

Also, as far as the ability to beat revengers vs a weakness to stall thing, I think that it must be noted that stall teams are becoming more and more reliant on revenge killers like Jirachi and Latias. This is good news for my team obviously.

While my double-outraging team may have some problems because of these outrages, my team is rarely walled. Almost everything is an easy 2hko. The difference between this team and rotom-walled ones is that rotom-walled ones can be walled (Skarmory, Rotom, and Celebi can beat everything on the team unless you put in something that forces them out), while this team can't. The thing is that when rotom and a couple of specific counters are destroyed, that team goes nuts. My team still has the possibility to lose because of its outrage dependancy.

In that last paragraph, I mentioned that it might be prudent to add something that can set up on and kill the thing your team is countering, and this is really just to force it out so that the next time it comes in it eats rocks and immediately faces something set up. This is very important for these teams, otherwise rotoms, etc. can just rest when you bring in the next sweeper, and you have failed to do any lasting damage. Successful HO teams have stuff like that. For example, most Rotom HO teams incorporate Infernape for this reason, and Stathakis incorporated Specs Jolt on a team that is supposed to be walled by bulky waters. These pokes are important because they allow you to force the switch and keep the pressure on that particular pokemon simply by keeping it from recovering and racking up hazard damage on it.
 
MetaGross66 said:
Wow, I'm seeing more copies of your team Anachronism. One thing I noticed, though, was that the team does have some issues with stall. I've played someone using your team and won 5-1 (he fled lol). It could just be that he doesn't know how to use it, though. Basically, my Skarm started phazing everything as they tried attacking it, and they couldn't do much back, especially with the bulk in stall. I'm pretty sure most HO teams subbing entry hazards for DS will have trouble with stall like Anachronism's team. Otherwise, HO seems to handle stall pretty well. I'm seeing this as a trade off for the ability to beat revengers in exchange for a weakness to stall. This might be able to be filled in somehow, though.
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Almost all HO has trouble with stall, I'm going to be completely honest when I say that I've lost to HO only once in over 10 times playing it on the ladder this month with stall (and i was outplayed badly when i lost, props to whoever Rule Brittania is) and even WITH entry hazards, your Spiker is going to have trouble with Forretress and you'd eventually be forced to carry a ghost, which'll slow down your momentum.

Just my quick two cents.
 
august said:
Almost all HO has trouble with stall, I'm going to be completely honest when I say that I've lost to HO only once in over 10 times playing it on the ladder this month with stall (and i was outplayed badly when i lost, props to whoever Rule Brittania is) and even WITH entry hazards, your Spiker is going to have trouble with Forretress and you'd eventually be forced to carry a ghost, which'll slow down your momentum.

Just my quick two cents.
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lol, hey. I'm Rule Britannia. I made the account a few days ago because I was barely gaining a point when I won matches on my previous account. Anyways, Anachronism's team got me onto the leaderboard in just over a day of laddering. Stall can be tough to fight sometimes, though I do usually come out on top (I'd say it's about 50-50 match-up wise) I've found Tyranitar to be quite valuable against stall because bulky grounds like Hippowdon, Swampert and Gliscor tend to be the best counters on stall teams all of which Tyranitar can beat (or at least weaken them enough so Mence/Nite/Lucario can handle them) if reflect is up and people often send Skarmory and take 60-70% from Fire punch just to Whirlwind me out which puts it killing range for anything else on the team, of course I'm just talking about full stall here semi stall usually has Scarf Jirachi which is a hell of a lot more annoying (probably gives semi stall the slight advantage vs heavy offense just because of this lol) at least for me since it can revenge everything on the team except Salamence and that's only if I win the speed tie and I'm not locked into Outrage. Bulky offense is probably the best match up for this kind of team.

It's funny how people are saying they're seeing heavy offense everywhere on the ladder because I hardly ever see it...
 
After having used a OU HO team to some success, I was wondering if it'd be viable for UU? I have no idea where to start on creating a team though.
 
My stall team is a little different. My team sets up entry hazards so that my curse regirock can abuse them while resting when needed, and I have two taunters that prevent opposing set up pretty nicely with two pseudo hazers to round it out. It works pretty well, as I intended to make it a sort of gimmicky team at first. I only lost one match on the ladder due to extreme hax (yeah 3 ways of dealing with t-tar, and all thanks to crits and freezes...) You could say it's semistall.

Anyway, HO obviously has its problems, and I believe they can be fixed. That guy I fought send his t-tar in on my rotom and it got burned which is probably why he lost....I then proceeded to set up in his face as he tried setting up knowing he can boost his attack in my face. Afterward, I roared him out with hippowdon, and the roaring cycle between vaporeon and hippowdon began. Then, I got my regirock out on his salamence and he fled. That's how it happened from how I remember it. I think it's just the people that are using the team. They can't use it properly. Maybe you can ask Sprinkles to edit the OP explaining further than what Stath wrote about playing HO?
 
With substitute, it means you always losing either a statup or coverage move, and probably life orb too. This means that you may be set up on or walled, completely stopping your momentum. I can't think of anything that isn't walled without 3 moves, except for maybe lucario, but espeed is pretty necessary too. I have considered using a substitute scizor with superpower, sd, and bullet punch, simply to beat wow rotom, heatran and magnezone switchins. Superpower is such a crappy move to hit walls with.

And August, to be fair, what percentage of bulky offense teams do you beat with stall? Honestly I think that is a testament to your team and your relative skill level than any especial weakness to stall.

Also, anyone who brings in ttar in on defensive rotom is doin it wrong, mence and dragonite both have lum berries to deal with that little bastard's statuses.

Aeroblacktyl: Taunt does relatively little to offensive gliscor, assuming you aren't switching it in on the opposing gliscor, and toxic doesn't OHKO you so that isn't really a big deal either. Of course it hurts, but it isn't ice beam. I haven't done calcs but there must be something adamant guarantees a 1 or 2HKO on that jolly misses.
 
Kingra can run with water/dragon, offering neutral coverage on everything but empoleon. That's about the only offense poke that I really see using subs.
 
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