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Resource GSC Simple Question, Simple Answer Thread
- Thread starter FriendOfMrGolem120
- Start date
Pikachu is very bad in GSC UU. You could argue its “viable”, but in truth it requires way too much support and is inconsistent even when it gets the right support. Just use Electabuzz, its way better, easier to fit, easier to use, etc. I don’t consider Pikachu to be a UU tier Pokemon, and I don’t think I am alone in that statement. Its only UU because people thought it could work in 2018. I would even argue Raichu is better than it. I would rather use that weird Raichu + Electabuzz team I have than use Pikachu.
Thank you for the explanation! Is there a reason it didn't fall down to NU then? I know in old gens often players aren't keen on additions to old metas, but I have my doubts on Pikachu changing much even down there, and there were changes tested throughout the years in old gens such as gen 1 Lapras drop to UU (and then subsequent ban) iirc.
Also is there a reason Raichu isn't rated then? Or are both so irrelevant it doesn't really matter?
Pikachu was a top tier AF mon in NU and back in the day people thought they were good in UU.
We are looking into changes for UU such as Muk unban and Scyther ban. But yeah our last tiering changes were like 10 years ago.
Was it unbalanced or just very good (basically was it banworthy?) Regarding the Raichu question I'm guessing it's just around as relevant (aka irrelevant) as Pikachu?
Pika was not quite on Ban Radar because very common Dugtrio being able to revenge kill and being so common as well as Feraligatr and Poliwrath were the hot topic as to what to ban in NU.
Raichu is bad for different reasons in UU. Raichu is outclassed and Pika is too polarized.
Here is a link to both of Dawn's videos about Raichu and Pikachu for a better anwser to your question.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIRBk9V_sJbuis4zwY0K0uk35kNvdghRb&si=Mw_Lm0o8-cUxqzkS
Thank you for those links! But my question remains, why is Pikachu not allowed in NU then? If it's terrible in UU in most likely not broken in NU shouldn't it go there?
Tier shifts are not automatic, and they aren't something done lightly, especially for old gen lower tiers with little activity. Especially if the NU playerbase is happy with things as is.
Oh I missed that part of your question. But yeah Spooky summed it up well. Also if something new was gonna be allowed in NU it would probably be something that keeps the meta the same because they like it that way.
Like Vileplume have been discussed for NU because.
1: Its a joke in UU
2: It would be Gloom 2.0 which still haves weaknesses like being a Grass type neutral to Ground and being Psychic Weak
I see, so it's less about how strong it would be and more about how it would change the meta from something that people like, which is understandable. I assume that in other old gen cases like the previously mentioned RBY UU, people weren't as happy with the meta, perhaps. Categorising it as UU seems pretty odd, but I guess it's more understandable when you consider that these are old gens and are based often on very old and outdated decisions, such as when NFEs weren't allowed in ADV UU.
Pikachu belongs in NUBL by my book. But I'm an old who played Mime-Pika NU, and it was banned before NU was a "real" tier. It's not such a big deal though, the Viability Ranking for a metagame is usually a better reference for a Pokemon's viability than whether a Pokemon lands in a proper tier vs. the BL of the tier below it.
P.S. Pika is probably better than at least Arcanine in UU.
P.S. Pika is probably better than at least Arcanine in UU.
It can fall to NU, but I don’t there is interest in this right now. I think Pikachu would be balanced in modern GSC NU, but its also a very volatile Pokemon that would shake things up. As for Raichu, it is unranked because most people haven’t used it / even think its viable. Even as someone who has used Raichu, its on the same level as crap like Weezing.
Pikachu wasn’t considered broken by the end of the first GSC NU metagame. It was never in the tier when Feraligatr and Poliwrath were around though, I think you are confusing it with Raichu, who was NU at the same time as those guys. Pikachu moved to UU right as Gatr and friends dropped to NU.
I'm new to competitive GSC, been playing OU. Mostly played gen 3, 4 and 5.
I can't figure out why Thunder is used so much. It has unreliable accuracy so I have never seen it used over Thunderbolt, except for rain teams which are more prevalent in later gens.
Anyone have any explanations? Thanks.
I can't figure out why Thunder is used so much. It has unreliable accuracy so I have never seen it used over Thunderbolt, except for rain teams which are more prevalent in later gens.
Anyone have any explanations? Thanks.
In generation 2, everything has maxed out EVs and RestTalk is very common, so the damage of Thunder is very important, and misses are significantly less punishing. This can be seen with, Snorlax, the best pokemon, where Thunderbolt tends to be manageable to take repeatedly, whereas Thunder can sting.
Thunder’s 30% paralysis rate can also be very deadly, being able to cripple targets like Gengar or Tyranitar or Exeggutor in OU, and Mewtwo and Mew and Lugia in Ubers, etc.
Here's some history on the Thunder x Thunderbolt topic: people used to run Thunderbolt as the standard during the early years of the meta. Stall was the meta standard and offense was not well explored. Thunder started being used on Pokémon who uses the Electric-type move as coverage, like Nidoking and Dragonite, because they could never break through Suicune without relying on a Critical Hit, while Thunder at least gave them a chance, and as a bonus could also had a good chance to paralyze Starmie. At that time, Hidden Power was banned on Zapdos and Raikou, so you could easily stop them using a Ground-type Pokémon. Even at that time though, people already started experimenting with Thunder on the electrics, specially on Zapdos, and noticed it puts a lot of pressure on Snorlax if the opponent decided to not run a proper counter to Zapdos. I remember running a RestTalk Zapdos with Reflect and Thunder, and Magnet equipped, and was able to break into teams without Raikou/Blissey/Ground-types. By the time Hidden Power was unbanned, the meta was already shifting to be more offense oriented, and that's when Thunder became really popular. The concept of bait Explosion was more clear and also widespread between players. You could bait explode Raikou/Blissey and, running Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, Snorlax had a much harder time trying to check your electric Pokémon, and people couldn't rely on the Ground-types alone to stop the electrics because of Hidden Power. So, eventually, Thunder became the standard option over Thunderbolt, though Thunderbolt is still used quite frequently and is a valid option in some teams.
What are the best movesets for a Nidoking and Nidoqueen with no event moves?
Also, can a curse boosted dynamic punch from Feraligatr OHKO a Snorlax? Since your starter can't learn rock slide or ancient power, I gave it both curse and dynamic punch thinking maybe it could surprise something effectively. Dunno if there's a better option.
Also, can a curse boosted dynamic punch from Feraligatr OHKO a Snorlax? Since your starter can't learn rock slide or ancient power, I gave it both curse and dynamic punch thinking maybe it could surprise something effectively. Dunno if there's a better option.
Can Thief be used to steal an item after the user has consumed a one-time item like Mint Berry?
The typical mixed attacking moveset is still best. Nidoking would normally use Thief, as that's currently the most popular alternative to Lovely Kiss, but Counter is also reasonably common. Nidoqueen would likely follow suit.
You need a critical hit, but you can do it:
+1 Feraligatr Dynamic Punch vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 578-680 (110.5 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKOIt's normally a 2HKO on Snorlax, though. But you still outspeed Snorlax at +1, so it's still a solid move to have in your pockets. Finally, Screech might be another option to look into on Feraligatr. You can play with this damage calculator to get a more detailed picture of the situation: https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/?gen=2
Yes. It can also be used to steal an item after your own item has been stolen.
Celebi was once in GSC OU! I wanna say pre-2004. It was extremely good, albeit in a very outdated metagame. To give you a sense of how outdated, Zapdos was almost always banned from using Hidden Power. (Caveat: from what I understand, rulesets were not nearly as standardized as they are today. It varied a bit from server to server, kinda like Chaucer's spelling).
I'd say Celebi probably acts to cut Zapdos' power in today's metagame... but probably not enough to take it down a peg. Unlike Meganium, its instant recovery isn't laughably easy to PP stall. Unlike Raikou and Blissey, it doesn't offer a clear opening to high-Attack beefcakes to start whaling away on you (incidentally, it's also wayyyy more likely to survive an Explosion assassination attempt). And it has Heal Bell to boot, nullifying any progress Zapdos might hope to gain by playing for Thunder paralysis. It'd certainly be very strong, I'd say probably top 5, but not Snorlaxian and probably still below Zapdos, as its strength would probably be more in reaction to Zapdos' threat level than anything Celebi is doing per se (Heal Bell is nice, but like the other Heal Bellers, Celebi is never really exerting pressure itself, which is a big downside).
A more in-depth assessment might be better left to the folks playing the Celebi+Ho-oh metagame in the US vs. the World GSC event happening right now.
I'd say Celebi probably acts to cut Zapdos' power in today's metagame... but probably not enough to take it down a peg. Unlike Meganium, its instant recovery isn't laughably easy to PP stall. Unlike Raikou and Blissey, it doesn't offer a clear opening to high-Attack beefcakes to start whaling away on you (incidentally, it's also wayyyy more likely to survive an Explosion assassination attempt). And it has Heal Bell to boot, nullifying any progress Zapdos might hope to gain by playing for Thunder paralysis. It'd certainly be very strong, I'd say probably top 5, but not Snorlaxian and probably still below Zapdos, as its strength would probably be more in reaction to Zapdos' threat level than anything Celebi is doing per se (Heal Bell is nice, but like the other Heal Bellers, Celebi is never really exerting pressure itself, which is a big downside).
A more in-depth assessment might be better left to the folks playing the Celebi+Ho-oh metagame in the US vs. the World GSC event happening right now.
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Coming from a place of GSC Ubers knowledge - on top of what Jorgen said, in a broader sense Celebi would probably make stall much more interesting.
My grip on current GSC OU is not that strong but to my understanding stall doesn't really cut it at the highest levels - it's viable but top players piloting offenses will often find ways to dice up top players piloting stalls. Celebi would likely change that, making it properly strong if not outright dominant. Breaking through Celebi is tough - there's not much in the way of particularly strong STABs that you can use to break him, the same way you (for example) have Electric STABs to pressure Skarmory somewhat inbuilt on most teams. Explosions and CurseLax can pressure it, but every stall team is already packing answers to those (and Celebi's healbell is nifty for the Lovely Kiss match ups).
The real answer is that nobody really knows until a Celebi-enhanced metagame is studied a bit deeper. Even Celebi + Ho-oh metagame is probably not that representative of what Celebi by itself would add, because Ho-oh provides easy access to that 'inbuilt strong supereffective STAB' stuff I was talking about
My grip on current GSC OU is not that strong but to my understanding stall doesn't really cut it at the highest levels - it's viable but top players piloting offenses will often find ways to dice up top players piloting stalls. Celebi would likely change that, making it properly strong if not outright dominant. Breaking through Celebi is tough - there's not much in the way of particularly strong STABs that you can use to break him, the same way you (for example) have Electric STABs to pressure Skarmory somewhat inbuilt on most teams. Explosions and CurseLax can pressure it, but every stall team is already packing answers to those (and Celebi's healbell is nifty for the Lovely Kiss match ups).
The real answer is that nobody really knows until a Celebi-enhanced metagame is studied a bit deeper. Even Celebi + Ho-oh metagame is probably not that representative of what Celebi by itself would add, because Ho-oh provides easy access to that 'inbuilt strong supereffective STAB' stuff I was talking about
The general concensus is that Celebi makes the metagame Stall Centric and part of that is because of Recover. Similar concerns were always voiced out regarding Ho-oh (Ho-oh invalidating mixed attackers bar Tyranitar). This has been accepted through the years and Celebi was furthermore banned from OU around 2004 or earlier when the masses were shifted from the RSbots to Netbattle (a more accurate historian could confirm or deny this as the Celebi shift from OU to Ubers precedents me).
My personal opinion is that although the metagame viability rulings the community had then are severely outdated (modern tiering would probably examine Celebi and Ho-oh in OU) its very very difficult to break or nullify or re-examine the Ubers/OU status quo without endangering the stability of the metagame as eventually other things like Snorlax and perhaps even Zapdos would probably be examined as well (the duct tape that holds GSC OU together). I do however believe with that said, that Celebi could theoretically be in todays OU with some sort of Recover nerf. Perhaps a PP Clause on Recover (no PP ups allowed, making Recover have 20 pp instead of 32).
My personal opinion is that although the metagame viability rulings the community had then are severely outdated (modern tiering would probably examine Celebi and Ho-oh in OU) its very very difficult to break or nullify or re-examine the Ubers/OU status quo without endangering the stability of the metagame as eventually other things like Snorlax and perhaps even Zapdos would probably be examined as well (the duct tape that holds GSC OU together). I do however believe with that said, that Celebi could theoretically be in todays OU with some sort of Recover nerf. Perhaps a PP Clause on Recover (no PP ups allowed, making Recover have 20 pp instead of 32).
Been trying to get into GSC teambuilding recently when I came across some funny moltres calcs vs some of the popular mons in the tier (like being able to almost 2hko lax under sun) and then saw he's like c rank on the viability rankings. What does this guy even do to put him so low? He seems like the type of mon that once you get some good chip off on the opposing mons he sweeps really quickly with his sunny day + fire blast so I'm kinda curious why he isn't higher/used more often?
Zapdos and Raikou too common. Tyranitar pretty common (and unlike the above 2, won't be missing Thunders). Suicune is pretty bad, but not uncommon either, fully walling Moltres. Vaporeon exists, Tentacruel exists, Blissey exists, Kingdra, Omastar, Aerodactyl and Kabutops aren't unheard of. Except for the electrics (who miss Thunders in Sun) , the checks Moltres has, check it way too well.
Bro missed the star of the show
Starmie hard walls his ass with too much pp from recover, and starmie is more popular than ever (and for good reason all the common sets are good as f)
But yeah Eeveeto covered most of the mons that give moltres issues. Lately I've seen people use it in a more reliable, long term use with stalk 2 attack sets rather than sunny day charcoal bc of its unreliability between fire blast missing and sunny day giving a free turn to go to a check/counter. There's also its speed tier which puts it right below zapdos which of course is no bueno.
It's not unviable but a niche pick overall.