GSC In-Game Tier List
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1) I though that being a good HM Slave was enough to raise its rank, but I think I'm wrong here. I agree Togetic is terrible at battle, I wasn't even bother considering him on battles. And it doesn't matter if it learn less HMs than other Pokémon, because Fly is what matters.
2) There is not a huge problem in get a Crobat, but it is not as good in battles than a lot of other Pokémon. The only reason to ever consider a Crobat is Fly. A lot of other things hit harder with Return.
3) Yeah, I know you can teach Swift, I was talking about flying moves. As normal goes, Ursaring is a billion times better.
That's a good point. I considered Togepi because of Rock Smash (which I consider an HM) and Headbutt, but I think Hoothoot can learn Headbutt too. Oh well...
EDIT: just checked and it doesn't learn Headbutt. Neither Spearow and Pidgey.
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1) If Fly is the only thing that matters, just grab a Hoothoot like somebody else suggested (who also gets Flash) and you're good to go instead of wasting time and effort to get Togetic.
2) On neutral hits, Return hits harder than Fly. And please read other people's points. If you use a Friend Ball, you are going to start nuking shit immediately. Lots of thing hit harder with Return? lol as if that matters when you are 2HKOing shit left and right anyway and the extra damage (most probably from Normal types) are just overkill most of the time. Even if you miss out on the KOs, Crobat is bulky enough (with its typing) and has 130 Speed to almost be guaranteed another strike next turn.
3) As I said, Swift hits harder than Peck; and even if Peck is Super Effective, the difference in damage is not noticeable so just spam Swift. Ursaring is a million times better? Good luck catching Teddiursa with that low encounter rate and the fact that it flees from battle. If you manage to catch it, Ursaring can function well but it still suffers from its low Speed and "not having Fly" - which is what started the Togetic discussion.
I know you don't need Headbutt, but you also don't need Flash, neither Rock Smash. Even Fly is not required. My point is that, if you really want to pick a slot just for an HM Slave on the team, you should make it as useful as possible, and Togetic is the most useful flyer.
Ok, Fearow is not exactly bad, but my point is that the only reason to ever consider it as an option is Fly (as well as Crobat). As flyers go, in Gold and Silver, you can easily replace Fearow with Ho-Oh or Lugia, respectively, but in Crystal there is no other good options. If it wasn't for Fly, you could easily replace Fearow with other Pokémon. Any of the S and A tiers Pokémon are better than Fearow. Even the B tiers are better, except maybe Seel (but only because there are better water-types).
LOL Togetic is the most useful Flier? What are you smoking?
And obviously the S and A ranks are better than Fearow otherwise it will be placed in those ranks already. There are B ranks better than Fearow? Debatable since a lot of us actually wanted it to rise to A but even if there exists B rank which performs better, this does not indicate that Fearow is bad as it still carries respectful stats and hit decently hard with good match-ups in the game.
The only reason to use Fearow is Fly? Nope, as I mentioned, it still gets good stats and has useful moves (Swift, Return, Fly) to carry it throughout the game. Yes, it might not hit as hard as Teddiursa but it trumps in availability and Speed.
1) Togetic is more useful than Hoothoot because it learn Rock Smash and Headbutt. You don't need those, of course, but my point is that if you are picking a choice only for HM Slave, you better make it as useful as possible.
2) Fy hits harder than Return. Fly is 105 counting STAB, Return is 102 at most (we are talking about Crobat here). Return is still better, but because it is 100% accurate (and don't waste time). 2HKO is a waste of time in-game when you can easily OHKO things (except for the bosses).
3) If you are at the beginning of the game, you better catching a Teddiursa than a Zubat on the Dark Cave. You need the Friend Ball to make it worth catching a Zubat, and for that, you need the right apricorn, deliver it to Kurt, wait for the next day and still you get only one Friend Ball, so you better make sure you catch Zubat with that single ball (unless you keep getting Friend Balls day after day). The effort you put on catching Teddiursa is much more rewarding because Ursaring is a better Pokémon than Crobat.
My whole point is that having a Togetic on the team is more useful than Crobat or Fearow. You can easily OHKO things with the other five Pokémon, and they gain more experience because they are sharing between five, not six. Having Togetic provides you four useful moves to use outside of battle. Having Crobat or Fearow provides you Fly and a mediocre fighter. Of course, you still need to evolve Togepi, but it hatches with good happiness, and generally around Goldenrod or even earlier. At that point, you have access to Headbutt, with is a pretty powerfull move counting STAB, even for a weak Pokémon like Togepi. You also have access to the haircut brothers and drinks. Even at Lv 5, you can easily beat the wild Pokémon at the Ilex Forest and it doesn't take you much time until it evolves. It actually need much less effort than getting a Crobat with a Friend Ball.
You're limiting the term "useful" to just outside of battle utility. Fearow is infinitely better than Togetic in battle, and Togepi is absolutely horrendous the moment you hatch it. If we're only using Togetic for field tasks, then it's a much better use of our time to catch a Hoothoot plus something that can Headbutt + Rock Smash. Headbutt generally doesn't even require an actual HM slave because it's a good move that a lot of high tier Pokemon can learn. And this is assuming we even need these moves, which is only occasionally if at all.
Most useful flyer as HM Slave. Don't make me feel like a stupid just because you don't get the point.
If the answer is obvious, don't blame me for answer that, blame who makes the question.
You didn't get my point here. Of course it is not only because of Fly, otherwise Hoothoot and Pidgey would be as good as Fearow. I know Fearow qualities, and thats why it is the best flyer in Crystal. My point is that you only consider it as a member of the team because of Fly. Remove Fly from it, and you have much better choices to pick over it, specially Fire-types.
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Out of battle is a big part of the game. Having an HM Slave on the team is very useful, because you already have five Pokémon that win battles easily for you.
Of course Fearow is infinitely better than Togetic in battle, I never said to use Togetic in battles.
I think it is more useful to have those moves with you when you need, instead of depositing a Pokémon in the PC and picking one in the box for this sole purpose. You are still using Fly all the time, so it is not like Togetic serves no function when it is at the team.
Why would you catch Zubat in the Dark Cave when you can go to Mt Mortar to catch Golbat lol. This skips most of it's "sucky" period and you have a nuke in Return as well as all the happiness stuff right away. And obviously you are going to be 2HKOing shit instead of OHKOing them when you are, on average, 5 - 10 levels below the opponent (I think my team is only on 30s when I entered the Hall of Fame)
I agree with you there. I never said to catch a Zubat at the Dark Cave, I said exactly the opposite. It doesn't matter if you catch a Golbat on the Dark Cave, you still need the whole Apricorn -> Friend Ball process; after that point, it doesn't matter where you catch the Pokémon. My point is that you still need the time to get the Friend Ball to get a Crobat, whereas you can get Teddiursa before the first gym.
EDIT: I forgot to say: you can still OHKO things with supereffective damage, even with the level difference. Also, Ursaring is also strong enough to OHKO things with normal-type moves.
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1) Apricorn -> Friend Ball takes 5 minutes at most if you know how to manipulate the in-game clock.
2) Good luck catching Teddiursa when it flees first turn and it has a 5% encounter rate.
Golbat is probably slightly worse than Teddiursa. We've discussed its problems at length earlier in this thread. Spearow, on the other hand, is comparable to Teddiursa, and probably better because it actually has its own super-effective STAB for many things.
Much like I wouldn't raise a Togetic just to have it slave, I wouldn't train a Crobat if I weren't planning to use it, either.
I really don't see what Maguss is trying to say in all of his posts here. You should've just asked how much we value HM slave utility in this topic, and the answer would be no, we don't value it much at all when tiering things.
Much like I wouldn't raise a Togetic just to have it slave, I wouldn't train a Crobat if I weren't planning to use it, either.
I really don't see what Maguss is trying to say in all of his posts here. You should've just asked how much we value HM slave utility in this topic, and the answer would be no, we don't value it much at all when tiering things.
1) I don't think in-game clock manipulation should be accounted for that thread. It is much like cloning Rare Candies.
2) Bellsprout's Sleep Powder or Gastly's Hypnosis. It is not as hard as you are trying to point out.
Ok, if you guys think that being a good HM Slave is not enough to raise its tier, than I agree the discussion is pointless. My personal beliefs says otherwise though. Anyway, I think it is still worth mentioning Togetic serves as a good HM Slave on its short analysis.
Headbutt utility is not a big part of the game. In fact, it doesn't matter at all for any playthrough not involving something like Heracross. And even for those that do, Togetic hardly gets any credit for it because Headbutt can be put on almost anything. Flash only matters for one cave, and only if you don't know the layout. It's at the very end, so you can deposit any other HM slave for a Flash user.
The issue is that you've invested a bunch of EXP into Togetic for no reason other than to say that it can Fly. But a trained Togetic flies no better than a base level Hoothoot, so there's no point to it.
Let's say I don't know the Flash layout, want to Headbutt for two Pokemon and also want Fly and Flash on a single Pokemon. Which one of these is a better choice? Quicker, more efficient, whatever you make it?
a) Train up a Togepi, spend your happiness resources into it instead of a Pokemon you plan to battle with (Return is gud), and have a Headbutt/Flash/Fly/Rock Smash on a single slot
b) Use almost anything else for Headbutt to get your two Pokemon, teach Fly to an HM slave on your team permanently, and withdraw Rock Smash and Flash as needed. The party switching is only necessary if you train 5 or more Pokemon and you really need their moveslots so badly that you don't wanna put your HMs there.
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In fairness Corsola is pretty godawful slow and it's no real offensive powerhouse (it has... roughly the same offenses as Togetic). But I see what you mean. Sure. Smash Togepi to E.
Also I want to point out Hoothoot, though it isn't a godsend, is an okay Pokemon. Like mentioned it can learn Fly right off the bat if needed and can be trained and used for a little while. It's not gamebreaking but there are much worse Pokemon than Hoothoot. Much more usable than Togepi anyway. Hell Noctowl even boasts a stronger Return...
BUT ON THAT NOTE - discuss other things please. Please. The burial of this topic made me sad. :(
Also I want to point out Hoothoot, though it isn't a godsend, is an okay Pokemon. Like mentioned it can learn Fly right off the bat if needed and can be trained and used for a little while. It's not gamebreaking but there are much worse Pokemon than Hoothoot. Much more usable than Togepi anyway. Hell Noctowl even boasts a stronger Return...
BUT ON THAT NOTE - discuss other things please. Please. The burial of this topic made me sad. :(
I won't even bother replying those questions because the discussion is pointless, unless you guys agree we can raise Togetic tier based on its HM Slave usefulness.
If you still have that angry paragraph I want to read it for fun.
Anyway something I've been re-contemplating again is the drop for the Nidos to B tier. Not being able to learn Dig and reliance on Earthquake does kind of suck for STAB. I mean yeah some like Sandshrew rely on it too I guess. But it is a well-competed TM sometimes. Their movepool is still stellar but their lack of STABs just seem really heart wrenching. I can post more on it if we want.
In OR/AS Sharpedo has exclusive utility in much faster surfing and there was pretty strong opposition to it having any reflection in its tiering back when we still discussed that game. Even still, we seem to have focused on tiering based on fighting prowess on our recentest lists (the on-site ones still praise Zigzagoon, Tropius and other such mons, but to be frank those were done really quickly and without much thought even for their time) and should any credit be given for exceptional HM slaving, needing to be babied from unplayable just to slave, like Togepi, essentially erases whatever minimal credit there would be in the first place.
As for the Nidos... STABs are a problem, but they've got good coverage moves right from the start that sorta carry them through the game. I think A is fine for them as long as you don't want to punish them too severely for that Moon Stone trip.
I can test them, just started a new game file in crystal and beat whitney. I can catch one in route 35 at around level 12. Good thing is in crystal I can get the moonstone in the Ruins of Alph, only thing is... as you said they do not get Dig which majorly suck because other things like graveler at least got magnitude which can net you some pleasant KOs
However I can get surf in Ecruteak and couple it with double kick for coverage.. other than that not having good stabs really sucks (I think I will give him mud-slap, but still too weak)
Just from the looks of it I don´t think they deserve A, sure they have a great movepool but just the backtracking for moonstone is a major hit... considering the best ground type in A (geodude) has such great availability, matchups and stabs.
Ok, I have no problem with that. That is the way you guys made the tiers, and I don't want to change that.
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