Greninja

[ZhengTann]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused. ​

Apologies for being biased, but at a glance Texas' post does best at saying what makes Greninja overpowered:

...... You can hit almost anything you want for STAB SE, abuse their orders to reduce damage through resistances with ease and with Gren's movepool can create immunities just as easily. Give such a powerful mechanic solid stats, high speed, and a solid movepool and you've got a serious threat. I've never seen a Greninja come out of a matchup negatively, whether in Singles or in multi, and I think it's more than reasonable to try and balance it in some way......

Thus far, the main factors that were brought up which made Greninja what it is include:

1. Protean
2. Rare Candy STAB boost
3. Mat Block

So, to address the issue, let's take a look at the following questions:

• Does the combination of the factors above make Greninja both powerful and degenerate? Why?
  
• What other factors may be looked into that affects Greninja's strengths? Why?
• Which of those factors should/should not be altered to affect Greninja? Why?

We've already had quite an extensive 2-page discussion at Feedback, so I'd be very obliged if someone could provide an accurate summary from there. If you want to reinstate points already raised there, please quote so people know - preferably with counter-arguments present over there as well.

Progress of the discussion will be tracked in the OP.
EDIT: Initial slate for Mat Block and Protean are up, and will be moved to Voting if there is no objection.


Fire away ^_^

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Arguments #1

Basically some of us think Greninja is too good (especially in Doubles/Triples) due to a combination of factors ranging from Protean to Rare Candy to dumb support like Mat Block and that. One of the proposed nerfs is to hit Rare Candy in some way so that Greninja does not get a +2 from every attack on top of the SpA boost. There are other ways we could do this like hitting Mat Block as discussed ITT a few pages ago. There was also a Greninja ban proposed but lol we are not going to do that hahahahaha. We could also hit Protean but that has collateral damage since Kecleon is not the issue.

From experience using Greninja, I can say that it is really easy to fuck somebody over going second, between Mat Block, DE, type-changing shenanigans, and brute force.

I would support any combination of these:

• No RC boost from protean type changes
  
• Bonus en cost to protean type changes
  
• Mat Block only works the first round Greninja comes out onto the field (like in-game)
  
• Bonus subs when ordering first against Protean mons? idk this sounds a little silly but it's like forewarn I guess hahaha

Pretty much, Protean is the problem, and even though removing it screws Greninja, it's kinda hard what with super fast taunt and DE moves. And even Role Play for Skill Swap.

Also, Greninja is probably worse to order first against than those pokemon TSRD, just because you'll always lose the damage race, hard. And that's another thing about Grennja- used well, it wins (almost) every damage race, because you can't hit it SE going first (unless the user lets you for some odd reason).

You don't even have to remove the boost from Protean/Color Change pokemon. Only allow the BAP boost for a pokemon's original STAB. Meaning that Greninja would get +1 BAP for Water moves and +1 BAP for Dark moves. This also solves the issue that can come up from Soaked pokemon and other moves that change typing.

• Greninja is too good (Especially in Doubles+) because of Protean, Rare Candy, Mat Block, etc.
• Nerf Rare Candy to +1 Water & Dark Attacks for Greninja, instead of +2 to Protean Type.
• Mat Block only works the first round Greninja comes out onto the field (like in-game).
• Bonus substitutions like Forewarn to be given to opps facing a Greninja.

Counter Arguments #1

Fine as is IMO, but then I seem to be on the "lets not ban/nerf everything" side all the time anyway (see Para/Freeze) so I'm sure that surprises none.

As for "everyone" hating to order vs it.... So? "Everyone" hates Sableye, Mega Gengar, Mega Garde, ect, ect... too. It's a strong mon but hardly any more than any other top tier IMO.

Its defenses are nothing special (usually 2/3) so a strong neutral hit will hurt it pretty easily and you can stop it from hitting you SE too (just use attacks that hurt it if it attacks you SE). Combined with its limited move pool (who said its movepool is good? Seriously? Hidden power is a must on it because it has nothing to use for alot of types and frankly it would love to have 3x hidden power because it needs the coverage) and it's hardly impossible to play around. Disable/Torment its good attacking move vs you and you're doing well, never mind mons who have alot more options. It's fast but Sableye and Gengar "outspeed" it and they can all get around taunt with Magic Coat anyway. Of course it can still fight back against that but that doesn't make it too good, just competitive.

• Greninja is not the only pokemon that is difficult to be ordering first against.
• Greninja does not have impenetrable bulk. (2 Def / 3 SpD or 3 Def / 2 SpD)
• Pokemon in S, A ranks have ways around Greninja's attacks. Eg. Encore, Disable, Torment, etc.

Arguments #2

What if you have more than one weakness, like just about every pokemon in existence? If you're weak to water, then you're probably weak to ice (now you take 28.5 damage from Blizzard, which is probably over twice what you're doing), Grass (both an SE hit AND it's resisting your attack), or Ground (okay you should be subbing for DE anyways but still), and if you're weak to flying, then you're probably weak to Psychic, Poison, or Rock.


The lack of redundancy outside of Water and Ice (and Dark to an extent) is made up for by the ability to just use a different attacking type (because, you know, more than one weakness). And the fast damage isn't the whole issue, it's also the defensive shenanigans (especially in doubles).


...you're not using Taunt on Magic Coat unless you're a complete idiot. Subs matter when going first, Protect and Roleplay matter when going second. Remember, the main way to beat Greninja is to take away Protean, and Taunt/Protect/Roleplay/faster DE are ways that Greninja keeps it. The idea is, if you're going first, then you make the sub: "If Skill Swap is ordered and x isn't taunted, then Taunt x" (replace Skill Swap with Gastro Acid or w/e if the opponent has that instead) and if you go second you use Taunt/Protect/Substitute/DE to stop Skill Swap from going through or Roleplay to get Protean back if you can't stop skill swap.

Also, "It's fast but Sableye and Gengar "outspeed" it and they can all get around taunt with Magic Coat anyway." How is this not "x is balanced because y beats it"??? And Skill Swap is the whole reason Taunt matters, too (or most of it, anyways), which is why Sableye is kinda irrelevant.

I've used both Gallade and Greninja quite a bit, and I can say that it's lots easier to screw you over with Greninja than Gallade, despite having less than 60% the movepool size. (Well, it's easier to do something that disrupts the opponent with Gallade, but Greninja screws you less thoroughly but while dealing tons of damage)

-------

If we do decide to nerf Protean, we could buff Color Change if we decide Kecleon doesn't need the nerf, for what it's worth. And I do think that Protean needs a nerf, at least a little.

Mat Block is my preferred target to be hit

Also TSRD I get where you're coming from but you're severely underrating just how powerful type manipulation is. You can hit almost anything you want for STAB SE, abuse their orders to reduce damage through resistances with ease and with Gren's movepool can create immunities just as easily. Give such a powerful mechanic solid stats, high speed, and a solid movepool and you've got a serious threat. I've never seen a Greninja come out of a matchup negatively, whether in Singles or in multi, and I think it's more than reasonable to try and balance it in some way.

fyi from my perspective making rare candy only boost original typing is the singles balancer, hitting mat block is the multi battle balancer

You certainly haven't said that. However, you've failed to acknowledge the level of power they possess, one that at this point I feel is too strong. I also completely disagree with your suggestions that we aren't aware of counterplay or that we're too quick to nerf things. Greninja and it's related ORAS buffs have been released in the game for a full 5 months and there have been no suggestions of nerfing to this point. Everyone acknowledged that it was a powerful Pokemon, no one jumped to burn Greninja at the stake.

The suggestions to balance Greninja come after plenty of observation and careful consideration. I wouldn't have brought up the topic in irc if I hadn't had empirical evidence of Greninja consistently giving it's user a net positive in often drastic ways. Greninja IS better than any other S rank Pokemon. It is better than Sableye, it is better than Gardevoir. There is no other Pokemon in the game that can manipulate it's matchup with such ease to have an advantage and capitalize on it every single time. The now common attack boosting Greninja has rank 4/5 offenses with Rare Candy gaining STAB and a +1 boost on every single attack with STAB and coverage that gains Super effective hits on almost every Pokemon. No other Pokemon can boast that kind of offensive prowess. It has passable 100/3/2 (with negative nature) defenses that, when combined with the ability to manipulate it's typing to almost never be super effectively, ensure a high degree of survivability. To say nothing of the ability to force immunities. This, combined with an excellent control movepool in U-turn, Taunt, D/E moves, and Mat Block (this one being extremely powerful in multi battles) give it an unparalleled combination of extremely good offense and excellent defense. The icing on cake is it's blistering Speed, ensuring that in almost any matchup it can ditate the actions of the opponent without effective counterplay.

Greninja outside of it's ability is an above average Pokemon, but the ability to control one's type is such a powerful effect as to push it past the top echelon's of this game's Pokemon.

Let me reiterate, the suggestions to nerf Greninja are a matter of balance. Greninja is unbalanced in the current game, it is arguably the best Pokemon and dominating to the point where only a few top ranked Pokemon can offer some semblance of a threat. Against anything not in the immediate top rank of Pokemon it will impose it's will. The suggestions to lightly hit Rare Candy and to hit Mat Block are mild suggestions to attempt to bring Greninja in line with the top Pokemon in the game.

I encourage you to take a look at nearly any recent match a Greninja was played in and to tell me that it did not generate a significant advantage for it's team. As an example, the tournament match between me+Iar and p2x7+gold was relatively even based on matchup and perhaps uneven based on skill, and Greninja was the sole reason why they are currently in a dominant position against us.


I really do respect that you want to act as a check against rash attempts at nerfing things and some of your past objections have been absolutely valid. In this case, however, I believe you are underrating Greninja's capabilities and overstating the counterplay available against it. As stated before I encourage you to review Greninja matches to see empirical examples of it's dominance. If it can be shown that it's in fact balanced I would happily back down, and will comply with any requests of your own to see such a conclusion, I only ask that you open your mind to the possibility of it needing balance in this case in return.

• Greninja has decent coverage moves that give it x2 or x4 attacks on most opps.
• Protean's defensive capabilities in Doubles+ considerably affects the end of round results.
• Pokemon with extensive movepools are comparatively less dominant than Greninja.
• Greninja needs to be nerfed to make the Meta more balanced and allow some legit Counter play against it.

General

My main problem with the Rare Candy change is that it alters the symmetry between Everstone and Rare Candy (given that they're effectively the same item).
Making it so one does change with your typing and the other does not seems like an obvious place for mistakes to be made.
It seems like something like that should be uniform between the two items (which leads to issues of splash damage on Kecleon).

Responding to tsrd and note to zt, I belive it was brought up at one point to change everstone in accordance with rare candy for consistency and I don't belive there's any negative in that so thread maker it's both of the Sig items, and basically that suggested change is boost only goes to mons original typing

Regarding Mat Block: I don't want to say i told you so but: I told you so <_<.

Regarding Protean: I honestly feel we should limit protean to say that, aside from the stab +3 damage bonus, for all intentions and purposes the user's typing is the original one. Or else I will have fun times with Greninja and the Heirloom artifacts 8). Heck, the possibility of having the bonus effects of all types (usage of rock and grass moves mostly) on a protean mon seems unnecessary.

• Consistent changes to Rare Candy and Everstone is needed to nerf Greninja and keep the ripple effect to a minimum (Ideally Null).
• Treat Protean's Type as different from the pokemon's natural Type. Eg. Don't give STAB benefits other than +3 BAP to attacks.

Counter Arguments #2

I would very much not be in favor of that change Frosty.
If Rare Candy gets nerfed (which I would hope it does not but that's a different topic) then at least that's something ASB created that's getting changed.
What you're listing there pretty much fundamentally alters Protean from how it exists in game.

Now assuming Texas is right and it's just STAB bonuses you're talking about:
It seems like a nerf just for the sake of nerfing (which is what I was afraid of)... or was Greninja abusing STAB abilities when I wasn't looking?
BTW the commands already say "only pokemon naturally this type" get the effect so Greninja can't use them anyway.
Bug: Can't Use.
Dark: Natural Type which your change would have him get all the time anyway.
Dragon: Can't Use.
Electric: Immune to Para. This is not an "extra" ability, it's a property of the electric typing... Not that it has electric moves really.
Fairy: Not even fairy types want this STAB.
Fighting: Does it even have these moves and would it matter if it did?
Fire: Immune to Burn. See Electric.
Flying: A whole lot of stuff that simply makes flying mostly what it is in game. See Electric.
Ghost: Stuff ghost has in game. See Electric.
Grass: A bunch of stuff it can't use. Basically the only thing it gets here is the ability to always use grass knot.
Ground: See Electric.
Ice: It can't use the command so all it gets is a small selection of immunities (to hail, freeze, and sheer cold...). See Electric.
Normal: No one remembers this boost anyway and even if they did it's only normal type moves which means it will never come up.
Poison: in game poison immunity. It also gets perfect accuracy Toxic I guess (though only if it was already poison type). Immunity to fog (matters?).
Psychic: Nothing here.
Rock: How much of the +priority can Greninja use? To my knowledge almost none of it. Again the main thing it gets is being able to use rock moves regardless of arena.
Steel: See Electric.
Water: Natural Type.

As I said I agree to Mat Block being nerfed. Although, I have one question. Why is Greninja being nerfed? We still feel it is Rank B+ right? Imo, Unless we see a pokemon in rank S and it is still too difficult to handle / counter with other pokemon in the rank, we needn't nerf it much.

So we nerf Mat Block and see how things are, after the nerfing. Regardless though, ZhengTann mentioned that this topic would be moved to discussion. So can we please wait till the discussion thread is up?

Edit: And it is up. Thank you Zt!

• Nullifying STAB benefits to Protean users would deviate from Ingame and could nerf Kecleon too.
  
• We need to see where we actually place Greninja in the viability Rankings to better understand the nature of nerfing that is required (Basically gives us the Idea of Threats / Checks / Counters)

I think I have summarized the major points that were discussed. If I have missed something out, then please clarify here and continue the discussion. Hope this helps, Cheers ^_^

 

[Birkal]

As the Kecleon user in ASB, please don't nerf it. It is perfectly balanced at the moment, in my opinion. If anything, nerf Mat Block because it consistently eats a substitution. A buff to Color Change to alleviate a nerf would also be fine.

I don't overly care about Greninja. It is powerful, but we have lots of powerhouses this generation.

 

[Its_A_Random]

As the Kecleon user in ASB, please don't nerf it. It is perfectly balanced at the moment, in my opinion. If anything, nerf Mat Block because it consistently eats a substitution. A buff to Color Change to alleviate a nerf would also be fine.

I don't overly care about Greninja. It is powerful, but we have lots of powerhouses this generation.

We have established in Feedback that we are not going to hit Kecleon so there is not much of a need to worry.

If we are going to hit Greninja, it will most likely be through hitting Mat Block and/or Rare Candy to avoid collateral damage to Kecleon in particular.

Well, that is what I think should happen but ehhhh we will see how this discussion turns out.

 

[zarator]

Also, even if you nerf Rare Candy, you will still have issues with other stuff that boost STAB (I think only heirlooms and random arenas fall under that category). If you get zarator to adjust the heirlooms so it is just the original stabs, then I suppose I wouldn't have much to complain about.

No I am not going to do that. Greninja is perfectly balanced in raids, because it can't use half of the types it has virtual access to (not to mention the fact I allow even stuff like Mewtwo in raids)

 

[TSRD]

I would appreciate it if the OP didn't essentially assume that the question of "Is Greninja overpowered?" was "Yes and it should be nerfed" when that question is hardly agreed on.

 

[akela]

1 person believes Greninja is balanced. Therefore it is heavily disputed that it is overpowered when 50 other people say it is overpowered.

 

[TSRD]

Really Akela, forgive me for missing that.
I've so far seen Texas and Avnomke arguing it is with a like from Tavok. On the other hand when I said it was not I got four likes on that post and Birkal has said in this thread that he's not impressed.

So please dear Akela, show me this 50-1 ratio I missed.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Can we not snipe at each other. Jesus akela have some tact.

We seem to all be on the same page with the suggestion to alter rare candy/everstone and hit mat block in some way.

Like this post if you agree, post if you disagree.

 

[Frosty]

Stick to arguments that matter. Those that dont (aka snarky useless remarks) are subject to moderation. And by moderation i mean "delete is the least of your problems".

That being said i cant help but think this is a mountain out of a molehill. I feel mat block should be adjusted because it is better than intended and the same with protean. But i fail to see the reason to nerf just greninja. Aside from the fact that we never did a nerf aimed at only one pokemon (and that is not a can of worms i feel should be opened), it isnt more ridiculous than gallade or sableye or Gardevoir or mewtwo. I havent seen how it is the guaranteed win many posts make it seem. Heck i would be much more worried to order first against a mon with encore and imprison.

 

[tavok]

Mat Block NEEDS to be nerfed. At least make it only work once and / or add an EN cost. Protecting your whole team from an attack won't be THAT attractve / easy to do if you're going to lose 50 en for doing so.

Rare Candy... I dunno. MAYBE just make it only affect original type for Protean mons, because it is interesting to be able to use Camouflage to change to a better type and then have extra power in your new STAB. Same with Soak. Not super common, but it can be useful.

PD: I do agree that Greninja is very powerful right now. It CAN be defeated by using the disadvantages that TSRD mentioned. The problem, however, is that there are not many mons that can do so. Because even if you use a move that can deal SE damage to the type he has to be to deal SE damage to you, chances are yours will be unSTABed and not boosted by item, while Greninja's will, not to mention he has superb offenses and an incredible speed.
And while it has little tricks, they are enough to give it a good degree of control over its opponents.

It is by no means uncounterable, but a Pokémon is not "OP" or "broken" or whatever word you want to use because it can't be countered, but because it is overcentralizing.

Maybe it doesn't need a nerf, but it IS a force to be reckoned. Or whatever the word is, I can't do English right now.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Frosty not going 2 go into detail b/c busy but no one ever said guaranteed win if u read the posts it talks about creating significcant advantages with unrivaled consistncy

nerfing mat block and altering rare candy is as unobtrusive as possible and as previously mentioned both are reasonable requests irrespective of your stance in greninja being broken or not

 

[Leethoof]

greninja is a like 1/2 of a piece of paper that just makes you use weird moves against it so he cant be immune, and he isn't very good mixed so special walls are a reasonable check. It is completely unreasonable to want to excessively nerf Greninja without whining about Sableye or Tomohawk or Mimers or one of the other bajimillion sub-eaters in this game. One of the only times we did something like this was Perish Song nerf, and even that hurt more than Gengar/Kit alone. EDIT: oh also parental bond haha

Mat Block is too strong in doubles (I think adding a steeper-than-protect EN cost should be a reasonable hit), but i think rare candy is okay on him. Its a fantastic item for sure, but not really that much better than some other sig items like Megastones or Elemental Stones on stuff like Ludicolo and Musharna.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Just some food for thought with Rare Candy Greninja:

Rare Candy on Greninja gives it a +3.5 BAP to all Special Attacks and a +2 BAP to all Physical Attacks. This makes it a generally superior Life Orb on the special side and an Expert Belt that applies to all attacks on the Physical Side. Assuming +Spe -Def/SpD on Greninja, this gives it a Physical power of 9.5 and a Special power of 12.5 with STAB applied because it gets STAB on everything. This is how it stacks up against other offensive threats:

• Hasty/Naive Rare Candy Greninja: 9.5 Phys, 12.5 Spec
• Quiet Mega Camerupt (Sheer Force Applied): 9.5/12.5 Phys, 12/15 Spec
• Bold Mega Gardevoir: 3/6/8 Phys, 10/13/15 Spec
• Jolly Mega Beedrill: 9/14 Phys, 0/5 Spec
• Jolly Mega Gallade: 10/13 Phys, 3/6 Spec
• Timid Mega Gengar: 3/6 Phys, 10/13 Spec
• Timid Mega Alakazam: 1.5/4.5 Phys, 11/14 Spec
• Mega Salamence: 9/12/14 Phys, 7.5/10.5/12.5 Spec
• +SpA Life Orb Nidoking (Sheer Force Applied, No Rivalry): 11/14 Phys, 11/14 Spec
• Jolly Mega Heracross: 11/14 Phys, 1.5/4.5 Spec
• Adamant LO Conkeldurr (Sheer Force Applied, No Iron Fist): 14/17 Phys, 6.5/9.5 Spec
• Hasty Mega Charizard X (Tough Claws Applied): 9.5/12.5 Phys, 9.5 Spec
• Timid Scope Lens Togekiss: 4.5/7.5 Phys, 10.5/13.5 Spec
• Quiet Eviolite Porygon2 (Download, Analytic Applied): 8.5/11.5 Phys, 11.5/14.5 Spec well neutral targets
• Timid Dusk Stone Chandelure: 1.5/4.5/6.5 Phys, 10/13/15 Spec
• Timid Mega Charizard Y (Sun): 4.5/7.5/10.5 Phys, 10/13/16 Spec

I guess this does not say much from the bunch of random mons but one of the major things is that can be seen here is that it has one of the strongest mons on the special side for coverage where the other Pokémon does not have STAB applied to it and when the other mons have STAB applied or something (Only like Porygon-Z hits harder in this area and that is without items), its Special power is comparable to some of the strongest Pokémon in the game at least on the special side. On the Physical side it is not very remarkable but yeah. It consistently hits very hard.

Take what you will from it, it probably does not really prove anything but I guess it is fun to see how it stacks up against other Pokémon.

====================

Also from the looks of things the general consensus is that we should hit Mat Block. How should we go about hitting Mat Block? Of course we can just reiterate the above posts but...

 

[zarator]

IMO just make Mat Block fail completely after first use, and add a flexible energy cost similar to Protect (albeit smaller, maybe 6 + damage / 4).

 

[Matezoide]

Mat Block is his only real issue. Nerf that and add an EN cost to Protean (That wont exist if you have Color Change if we love Kecleon that much) so it has a weakness and it will be fine. We dont need to gut him when we have stuff like Sableye, Mega Gallade and fucking Mewtwo.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Starting to get real tired of people overreacting to this. No one, NO ONE is saying "gut" Greninja! We're saying that it's overpowered atm! And (I, at least) suggesting two small alterations with objective merit in order to bring it in line.

If you seriously think altering mat block for balance and making rare candy/everstoneonly boost original typing is gutting greninja then I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Frosty]

Texas the thread says "greninja" and people are suggesting changes to only rare candy. You are preaching at the wrong crowd here. We are saying that greninja by itself isnt the problem because it is being treated as the problem that needs to be addressed. Not mat blovk not protean not rare candy and everstone, Greninja. All propositions have greninja as sole target. If whatever changes (or lack of them) affect protean or both rare candy and everstone then it would be a whole different deal. But that is clearly not what is being suggested here.

People are saying greninja is too good to the point of needing changes directed solely at it. We are saying it isnt that good. How exactly is that not valid?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Texas the thread says "greninja" and people are suggesting changes to only rare candy. You are preaching at the wrong crowd here. We are saying that greninja by itself isnt the problem because it is being treated as the problem that needs to be addressed. Not mat blovk not protean not rare candy and everstone, Greninja. All propositions have greninja as sole target. If whatever changes (or lack of them) affect protean or both rare candy and everstone then it would be a whole different deal. But that is clearly not what is being suggested here.

Then blame an inaccurate thread title. The entire second post is a conglomerate of what people should have read to be familiar with this issue or else they shouldn't be posting. Reading those posts makes it crystal clear what suggestions are being made to address which problem.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I'm just going to go ahead and throw my two cents in here. I've used Greninja extensively, and while I don't think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be, I do agree that a small nerf could be healthy for it and the metagame.

Here's what I think should be done (my fixes are added in bold.).

The Pokemon pulls up an energy mat and uses it to defend themselves from damaging attacks. This attack will also defend allies in a multiple battle, but only on its first use. Subsequent uses will only protect the user, and at an additional EN Cost equal to (Damage Prevented / 3). Status moves are not blocked. This move fails if used consecutively.

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move, and is increased by two (2) if the Pokemon changes its type. When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action.

Obviously I haven't finalized these, but I would like, if at all possible, to stick as close to ingame/previous incarnations as possible. Any feedback is of course acceptable to me, but I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Let's shift discussion back to Mat Block since consensus is that we should make it weaker because it is a poorly designed move that makes Greninja a lot better than it should be.

IMO just make Mat Block fail completely after first use, and add a flexible energy cost similar to Protect (albeit smaller, maybe 6 + damage / 4).

IMO, this is a really good starting point for fixing this move. Does anyone object to fixing Mat Block to this or alternatively what S0L1D G0LD mentioned above? If we cannot come to an agreement we can just take it to a Council Vote anyway so everyone wins.

Also what I want to ask is about Sub Classes. When this move was initially brought up a proposal for it to be considered to be a Protective Move was considered. Should we make it one or is its status as a one-time damage blocker for all mons on its side not good as to make it part of the Protective Move class?

Thoughts on both points?

 

[Mowtom]

I think that if Mat Block can only protect Greninja once, it doesn't need to be a Protective move, but if we adopt Gold's proposal, it needs to be, for reasons I hope are obvious.

 

[ZhengTann]

To back IAR up, there is a discrepancy in Protective Moves as a Sub class. King's Shield only blocks damaging moves, the same as Mat Block, without the "protect allies at first use" part. Yet despite the former being less powerful than the latter, King's Shield is counted under Protective Moves while Mat Block isn't. IMHO if we want to make Mat Block still usable after it's first use, then we should list it under the Protective Moves class. And yes I agree with Mowtom above.

EDIT: I really really want to talk about type manipulation damage race with Protean + Sig Item but I guess I'll leave that for another day.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

The way I've always seen the p/e moves class issue is that King's Shield and Spiky Shield are counted under the classification because they punish contact attacks and make the attacker worse for ware, which imo would be too strong to not use the class, and would nearly always demand a sub against physical attackers. Mat Block, however, not only protects solely against damaging attacks, but has no added effects, and thus doesn't, not to mention would become nearly useless as a 0 priority attack that doesn't work half the attacks in the game and was a p/e move by law.

 

[Geodude6]

Hey if we're directing a nerf solely at one powerful Pokemon can we also hit Mega Gardevoir, Gallade, Tomohawk, Sableye, Mr. Mime, Aurumoth, Gengar, Kitsunoh, Togekiss, and just about every other of the bakazillion sub-eaters out there?

kthxbai

Yeah, Greninja is powerful, but there are plenty of ways around him.

1) Ability trickery. This is a tactic that is pretty easily pulled off and that robs Greninja of its main source of strength, Protean. The most powerful of these moves is Skill Swap, but moves such as Gastro Acid and Simple Beam fall under here too.

2) Getting rid of his item. While this is easier said than done, and it won't stop Greninja, it'll certainly slow him down. Most powerful of these is Knock Off, but Trick works too and is pretty widespread.

3) Taunt it. This is probably the shakiest tactic here, but it keeps Greninja from using Mat Block, which is one of, if not the best move in Greninja's arsenal. This is stopped in numerous ways, but slowing down Greninja will help you pull this off considerably easier.

4) Slow it down. A lot of Greninja's power comes from his speed and ability to act before his opposition. This won't stop Greninja in and of itself, but makes it easier to pull off a different tactic. Thunder Wave is the most common way to do this, but there's also Glare and Zap Cannon (the latter of which unfortunately has pretty shaky accuracy)

5) Just hit it hard. Most people give Greninja a Hasty or Naive nature, which reduces one of Greninja's defensive stats to 2, which is below average, and most mons have pretty powerful STAB options. Works best in conjunction with one of the above tricks.


I am not using the old "X is balanced because Y beats it" (or at least that was not my intent). I'm saying "X is balanced because Y, Z, W, and V moves beat it, which most mons have at least one of." It should be OK for Greninja to be powerful, and we should let it remain powerful. That said, since some people obviously think Greninja is TOO powerful, let's look at some proposed solutions:

1) Include Mat Block as a p/e move (for the purposes of sub classes). This is what I think we should do, if we do anything at all, since it appears that this is where most of the frustration is coming from facing Greninja, since I've seen zero complaints about Kecleon (the other Protean user), which has nearly twice Greninja's movepool.

2) Attach some sort of EN penalty to Protean. OK I lied, this one's my favorite; it makes Greninja seem like, idk, Cinccino: powerful, but tires easily.

3) Change Mat Block so that it only works on R1. Eh. This is how Mat Block works ingame but the current version seems to have been made to somewhat imitate Fake Out. If we hit Mat Block in this way, we'd "need to" change Fake Out too, which opens a whole 'nother can o' worms. Can work, but only if users don't act like children.


I'm not convinced Greninja is so powerful as to warrant a "gutting," as Texas puts it, but this appears to be the mentality of SOME PEOPLE (not you Texas sorry). Yeah, it can put you in situations where you go, "I can do jack shit against this little bugger," but you know what? Plenty of mons can do that. For example, the list of ten-ish wide-movepool-mons at the beginning of this post.