U tuen, scald, ice beam, hp grass/grass knot?
Isnt scald a better option because it lets you fish for a burn?
Subject 18 Edit: Please Multi-quote and dont double post.
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Pokémon Greninja
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Subject 18 Edit: Please Multi-quote and dont double post.
Depends if you want Burn Chance or Power. If you want more power (which is what Gren wants most of the tme) you run Hydro Pump or Surf, depending on what you prefer accuracy-wise.
you have a point
No, Greninja doest really have counters except Chansey so its better off going for power over a burn chance especially since it's so frail that it will still fall to most physical hits even after a burn.
Hydro Pump > Scald always on Greninja.
The other day I was playing on an alt server, and someone trolled me with King's Rock Water Shuriken. It was pretty ineffectual in the end, but with a good RNG it sure did get on my nerves for a while.
Perhaps the fact that nobody uses physical greninja? A physical set is undoubtedly subpar, but at least use legitimate arguments when going against it. "What if gastrodon predicts that your magneton is running hp grass?" Hint: they won't. Hence the term gimmick.
And if all that's left is nitpicky, irrelevant things like that, then you are simply arguing for the sake of, and it is time to move on regardless.
Scald is spammable by everything. Having a chance to deal more damage gradually is not too shabby unless you're in a situation where only hydro will kill or surf has a chanxe scald doesn't have.
Physical Greninja sucks, period. It has worse coverage, weaker moves, and can't kill any of its counters using it as lure like HP Ice Terrakion could to Gliscor last gen or HP Grass/Grass Knot Bisharp can to Physically Defensive Hippowdon/Quagsire this gen.
Well more than half of this thread is filled with arguements over physical Greninja, which btw is quite frankly BAD. It has really become the same as Rapid Spin Greninja. I think that it has become a topic of useless arguments and people are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Come on guys, just try to understand that if so many people critisize that set, there must be some problem with it.
And, this post is not criticizing anyone in particular.
And, this post is not criticizing anyone in particular.
You misunderstood me. What I meant was the second you revealed you are physical, then the opponent can predict SS the next time / turn you are up against it. Whatever, it's just a gimmick anyway
Scald is spammable sure, but Hydro Pump is Greninja's strongest move and since it gets a lot of coverage options (all of which get STAB) running 2 water moves is rather silly.
Not to mention with Greninja's non-existant bulk, further weakened by having to run a LO to deal significant damage to defensive mons, 165 BP vs 120 BP + 30% burn chance is simply not a contest.
Scald is a great move on something like Keldeo that is 90% of the time choice locked and thus relies less on prediction as nothing really appreciates a burn (outside of Conkeldurr), spamming the move early game allows it to get past it's checks/counters easier later on.
Now now, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying scald is usable on offensive mons too.
I personally run a non-water move greninja because I can :^)
but isnt going against a burned chansey easier for greninja than battling a healthy chansey?
Either way it's going to just cure itself with Heal Bell/Natural Cure and even if it doesn't, Chansey needs a TON of prior damage to be threatened by Greninja so the burn is pretty moot.
Run a dedicated WoW user or bulky water Pokemon if you want to spread burns as Greninja would prefer to just outright murder things than slowly kill them, or else just tag out. This means Surf/Hydro Pump are usually the preferred option because the difference in power is quite notable.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 127-151 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 143-172 (47.9 - 57.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 174-205 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
There isn't much else to discuss here, to tell the truth. The Smogon standard set is Timid, 252 EVs on SpA and Speed, Life Orb, four attacks, with those four attacks being usually Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Extrasensory. Anything else is either a small variation of these four attacks (which have also been discussed) or a "shitty gimmick". People talk about the gimmicky sets because any new Greninja set at this point is a gimmicky set, and everybody likes to attempt new sets. People won't just use the same set until the end of the generation just because Smogon says so.
I agree that Special Greninja is better, but I appreciate any attempt of trying to create a new set for Greninja. The meta becomes more interesting if it becomes less predictable.
I use scald grass knot and ice beam for perfect coverage and dark pulse to hit bulky specially defensive bulky psychic types.
But against that particular match up:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 144-172 (48.3 - 57.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just wanted to say, Surf is shit, run Hydro Pump on Greninja always and Scald is beter than Surf on anything remotely bulky.
I found a pretty good physical set too:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- PowerUp Punch
- Shadow Sneak / Water Shuriken
- Waterfall
- Night Slash / U-turn / Rock Slide
Its main goal is to set up a PowerUp Punch or two, at which point its physical attack will be higher than its special attack, enabling a pretty strong sweep.
Checks and counters:
Ghost Types stop it from using PowerUp Punch, so I recommend having a super effective move on them. Aegislash is especially difficult because it can use King's Shield to not only block your attack, but set you back, leaving you in a position where you have to out-predict the opponent. You'll notice that the only moves I have for it that won't be affected by King's Shield are PowerUp Punch and Rock Slide, so those are the best options when predicting this move. I prefer PowerUp Punch for this role in case they go for Sacred Sword or Iron Head.
Other problems:
The biggest issue besides Ghost Types and King's Shield is that the moves listed in the set are its only viable Physical Attacks, leaving it's coverage a bit weak. Sure, it can learn Dig, but that isn't a great choice because it gives the opponent a warning to switch into a Flying Type, something with Levitate, or something with an Air Balloon. But if you can get to the point where the opponent has nothing to resist these moves, it makes for an excellent mid to late game sweeper.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- PowerUp Punch
- Shadow Sneak / Water Shuriken
- Waterfall
- Night Slash / U-turn / Rock Slide
Its main goal is to set up a PowerUp Punch or two, at which point its physical attack will be higher than its special attack, enabling a pretty strong sweep.
Checks and counters:
Ghost Types stop it from using PowerUp Punch, so I recommend having a super effective move on them. Aegislash is especially difficult because it can use King's Shield to not only block your attack, but set you back, leaving you in a position where you have to out-predict the opponent. You'll notice that the only moves I have for it that won't be affected by King's Shield are PowerUp Punch and Rock Slide, so those are the best options when predicting this move. I prefer PowerUp Punch for this role in case they go for Sacred Sword or Iron Head.
Other problems:
The biggest issue besides Ghost Types and King's Shield is that the moves listed in the set are its only viable Physical Attacks, leaving it's coverage a bit weak. Sure, it can learn Dig, but that isn't a great choice because it gives the opponent a warning to switch into a Flying Type, something with Levitate, or something with an Air Balloon. But if you can get to the point where the opponent has nothing to resist these moves, it makes for an excellent mid to late game sweeper.
Used to use this with the Bolded moves. Thoug you pretty much never want to use Water Shuriken. Even w/ all 5 hits its weaker than Waterfall. Sadly physical Greninja usually negatively criticized here from what I've seen. Hopefully it gets some better BP moves from ORAS tutors if they exist. After a PuP it usually gets to a point where I find that its hard for my opponent to stop if I remove a few important things for it.
But Water Shuriken is Priority, which is why it's slashed with Shadow Sneak.
It's a decent set, but try to avoid discussing physical Greninja here please. It's been discussed and fought over to death and has been concluded to be usable, but completely inferior to special Greninja. Let's just drop the discussion before we cause tension and pray for Knock Off, Ice Punch and such as move tutors so we can continue discussing after ORAS.
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