Greninja in SV UU- A dedicated DISCUSSION thread

[Monky25]

Greninja in SV UU ​

Hello everyone. While the Ceruledge test is underway, the UU council would like to start a dialogue focused on one Pokémon without necessarily going through a procedure like a suspect test: Greninja. Greninja had the second highest result on our recent tiering survey, which resulted in a suspect test for Ceruledge. One might assume that by being the second most voted for result, it would be the next Pokémon under inspection. However, we’re at a notable disparity. A vast majority of the UU council does not see Greninja as an issue in the tier, with nearly every member voting it as a 1 or 2 on the survey, and there is a greater preference to examine other controversial Pokemon like Latios or Garganacl over it. The general consensus among the council is that Greninja is not an issue.

This means one thing: there is a divide between the UU tiering body and the survey result on what to do with Greninja. As such, we have created this thread to start a dialogue on the Pokémon. In the end, survey scores are just numbers from anyone and both sides will have to make their arguments as to why Greninja should stay or go. This discussion will be monitored throughout the coming weeks and after the tier shifts where we will determine what Pokémon should be evaluated for tiering action before UUPL comes. I look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts and a productive discussion!

Below are posts by council members Askov Lyssa and Moutemoute on Greninja

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-uu-metagame-discussion-the-indigo-disk.3733541/post-9938801
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-uu-metagame-discussion-the-indigo-disk.3733541/post-9938774
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-uu-metagame-discussion-the-indigo-disk.3733541/post-9938124

 

[Geopolitics]

I think that Greninja, out of the Pokemon listed on the tiering survey, is current the second easiest Pokemon to deal with. I think Greninja can be extremely versatile - there are fringe sets (LO Spikes, LO Battle Bond w/o Shuriken) that have some merit. Yet, I don't think that is responsible for the divide between the opinion of the counsel and the opinion of the public. Imo Gren has a lot of solid switch-ins that haven't yet been fully explored. The following Pokemon have favorable matchups into the most common set of Greninja. Admittedly, guessing Gren's coverage move (Ice Beam or the lesser explored yet still meritorious Grass Knot) incorrectly can be disastrous: Battle Bond is an extremely strong steroid which can snowball the game. However, until people start to drop Shuriken (which is extremely valuable), then I think Gren is OK. The following Pokemon have good matchups into Gren, from my personal experience on the ladder:


The Best Options

Set

Paul Creenis (Gastrodon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Gastro does extremely well into Gren: it is 4HKO'd by LO Dark Pulse and immune to water STAB. Gastro isn't just a lame duck who burns a whole in your team, however: it has the utility to get up Rocks while also having positive matchups versus other threats like non-CM Latios, Specs Keldeo,

Set

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Spinner

Azu, while lacking recovery, takes on all variants of Gren with relative ease. This set is 4HKO'd by Gren who chooses to run Grass Knot and is 5HKO'd by all other variants. Further, Azu hits back extremely hard and punishes switch ins (given the relative lack of Fairy resists in this tier).

Set

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Flip Turn
- Vacuum Wave

In addition to picking off Greninja (even after a Battle Bond boost) with Specs VW, Keldeo is a soft-check to Greninja: it avoids the 3HKO from Dark Pulse while not being 2HKO'd by Hydro (if it hits) and threatens to OHKO back with Specs boost Secret Sword. Keldeo can do more than be a soft check, however: it can kill back or generate momentum with Flip Turn, limiting Greninja's ability to switch in and create problems.

Set

Quaquaval @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Aqua Step
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Rapid Spin

In addition to being perpetually underrated, this set is extremely good versus LO Gren as well - it provides good team utility by getting rid of items and spinning away hazards, has reliable recovery, and can serve as a juryrigged cleaning option due to the potency of aqua step + moxie.

Set

Goodra-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Dragon Tail

This is situated somewhat similarly to AV Azu in the sense that it pretty much demolishes all forms of Gren, but lacks the reliable recovery necessary to sustain itself throughout the game. While weather than Azu, it is both bulkier and has access to Dragon Tail (which gives you operative control over the direction of the game). Plus, this resists SR and has a little bit more synergy with the best Wish user in the tier (Alo).

Set

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Surf
- Knock Off
- Flip Turn
- Roost

This one is growing on me for sure - it beats up on stuff like Latios, Gren, and Gengar while being able to heal itself and provide utility (albeit being forced to choose between two of Knock, SR, and Flip Turn). This thing is extremely good and isn't being used nearly enough IMO.

Ancillary Options

Walls


Pretty self-explanatory: specialize yourself defensively the way you see fit, keeping in mind that both have utility (Tentacruel has Knock, Spin, Haze and TSpikes; Sylveon has Wish) in different ways. Sylveon, lacking SpDef investment, does struggle a little bit more to switch in with rocks up. However, given the circumstances of the metagame (especially with the prominence of Latios), mixed defensive may be the way to go.

Revenge Killers


Talk about two Pokemon who are extremely different lol. Lokix, I am your biggest hater, but First Impression is enough of a threat to force Gren out nearly every time - forcing it to switch until it has nowhere left to run. Comfey (and its insanely underrated Tera Poison variants) have a lot to work with and priority Draining Kiss is one of the more unique checks to Gren in the tier right now.


I think Greninja is very, very good. However, I think it pales in comparison to the rest of the Pokemon under the council's microscope right now. Latios (especially its Soul Dew/CM variants) is patently absurd right now, as well as Ogerpon-Cornerstone (whose SD/Trailblaze set is perhaps the biggest physical threat to balance right now) put far more strain on teambuilding atm. I would even venture to say that things like SD/Scale Shot Garchomp do more damage to the meta right now. These three force even offensive teams into tailored defensive options (see: mandibuzz) to have a remote chance, while Greninja has a number of options which can fit on a variety of teams.

I've yapped long enough, will keep an eye on the replies for any other cool sets to improve the Greninja matchup

 

[Amane Misa]

Greninja is a good Pokemon but below are the points that convince me believe it isn’t banworthy:

• Greninja, unlike our other bans, only has one good set, being Battle Bond + Life Orb. It is relatively easy to limit Choice Specs sets and it’s hard to justify picking it over other special attackers like Ribombee and Latios. Protean, while useable, isn’t as effective due to the ability’s nerf.
• There are a lot of natural checks for Greninja that can fit in plenty of playstyles, with the main ones being Azumarill and Keldeo on Offense and Empoleon and Gastrodon on Balance.
• Greninja is naturally not that strong and is only remotely broken once it gets the Battle Bond boost, but even then, without Tera it fails to KO some of its checks and playing around it so it doesn’t get the boost isn’t that difficult, and even if it does get the boost, it’s only once per game.
• Greninja’s best moves are unreliable (Hydro Pump and Water Shuriken).
• Hazards are a problem in this tier and Greninja can’t afford to run Heavy-Duty Boots. It is easy to setup hazards but it is hard to remove them. In conjunction with Life Orb being not that hard to stall out, Greninja finds itself on a timer relatively fast.

 

[passion]

not sure where this wide array of support for action against greninja is coming from as i have not seen much of it personally outside of numbers with no names attached to them. personally, i find greninja to be incredibly manageable especially when you compare it some of the other mons that are currently causing a problem in this tier. greninja's weaknesses are very noticeable in its lack of longevity and immediate fire power and an attempt to circumvent one of these weaknesses will often ensure that the other flares. i personally do not find greninja checks hard to fit on teams but for those that do it is also important to keep in mind that teambuilding options will open up further as other more outwardly problematic pokemon are dealt with. not to say that i think greninja is a bad pokemon by any means, i think spikes specs is pretty strong and people have been toying with stellar orb as an option for hyper offense which seems pretty cool as well. however, i just do not see how it could be considered bannable as of now.

 

[ThatOneApple]

Figured I'd give my two cents on gren.

Tbh, i dont really think its a priority. Its kinda a pain in the rear for some teams but i feel thats mostly a result of people needing to prepare more for dumb stuff like , leaving holes in teams. It could also be due to the tier still kinda being felt and figured out, so general ideas of how one builds with it in mind goes, idk. Personally i do think it has a decent list of checks, , hell, its battle bond is effectively worthless as long as the opponent has a in the back. But i can also see these checks being weird to fit on teams at times (except kix, that guy's awesome rn). Overall i think gren is something to be looked at later, as we have bigger fish to fry rn

 

[Szark]

I initially voted high on . I think I ended up voting too highly.

That is not to say I like this mon since it can run games over with little effort if opponent gives it a single turn sometimes. It can shred through unprepared teams or at least punch sizeable holes in them and also has the "Pick your counters" component to it. For example the earlier brought up Assault Vest Azu set ends up 2HKO'd if Gren chooses to run Sludge Wave and Rocks are up. Gastro gets shredded by Grass Knot.

That being said it's definitely not without it's flaws since LO Variants often struggle to keep healthy due to inability to hold boots and addional chip (especially if/when we lose ). Specs Variants are more comital in moves they click. It's biggest issue is surviving between priority and that tera it wants is offensive rather than defensive one, though water does make Vaccuum Wave and FI both neutral.

Overall I am much more mild on Gren and no longer find it ban worthy, or at the very least not a priority.

 

[Overshoc]

Just wanted to give my short cents over gren, I agree there are more important things to prioritize over it but I still think it should be looked at.

One thing I am noticing people aren't accounting for on Battle Bond Gren is grass knot to effectively handle those water types being listed, grass knot can still be slotted on depending on if your team can handle what Ice beam would be killing.

But that's just all I wanted to contribute, it has a 4mss which can persuade people from grass knot in the first place and it is still hard checked by Loxix

 

[Monky25]

I wanted to wait until a few posts were made to post my own individual thoughts about Greninja. It’s no secret that I am vocal about keeping Greninja in the tier, for I like the presence it has in the metagame with it’s high speed, access to priority, and good offensive potential, keeping threats like Iron Moth, Latios, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, and Garchomp in line. It hasn’t felt overwhelming at all and there’s a lot of flaws that should be taken into account when handling Greninja. For one, Greninja is pretty weak coming off base 100 Special Attack, wanting Life Orb to have more flexibility while hitting hard. However, Life Orb absolutely kills its longevity and in tandem with hazards hinders Greninja from being a staying presence throughout a game that doesn’t always have chances to clean late game. The Specs set has been trending but falls into the issue of being prediction reliant as is the nature of all choice breakers with plenty of midgrounds into common attacks. I think Greninja is also generally Tera reliant on Tera Water or Stellar to pick up some KOes to even get the boost in the first place. Even with a boost Greninja isn’t unbeatable and we’ve got a lot of checks that can take Greninja on. I will use the set of Life Orb + Battle Bond with Hydro Pump/Surf, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Water Shuriken for reference as it is the most common set. Sludge Wave and Grass Knot are viable options and do beat some of the listed counterplay but then other Pokemon become more reliable checks to Greninja as more impactful moves can be dropped. Before we get started, please be aware that these counterplay vary in reliability, but are all Pokémon considered counterplay nonetheless. Something like Ogerpon is more of a softcheck while Gastrodon is a hard counter, but both provide answers to it on varying teams.

In terms of counterplay (B or higher on the brand new VR) we have:

Offensive counterplay
resists all the moves and can easily pick off Greninja with priority Vacuum Wave.
also resists all of Greninja’s moves; Assault Vest which is very common shuts down Greninja entirely as it can’t do anything to hit it while the item lets it tank blows differently from how other sets would.
can take it out with Extreme Speed if low enough and can utilize Tera Normal to avoid being dropped by Water-type moves while picking off Greninja at a higher health.
easily KOes with first impression, not too much else to say.
same as Keldeo, can tank hits well and revenge kills Greninja easily apart from Tera Water Hydro Pump if Quaquaval ends up being chipped enough, but still a good check.
trades with and beats Greninja 1v1 thanks to its all around 100/100/100 bulk. Very solid tool to use on hyper offense
same as above, Galarian Moltres has good bulk that lets it check Greninja in an emergency for HO teams
Bulky enough to tank an Ice Beam from Greninja but can also use Embody Aspect and Tera to revenge kill Greninja with the Speed Boost
generally a really bulky trade Pokémon that acts as a backup / soft check on more BO / balance builds

Defensive counterplay
Roar phases Greninja out which can force it into more hazard damage, while Haze lets Empoleon handle it more easily in a 1v1 last mon scenario. It also neutralizes Battle Bond if already activated since it activates only once and possesses reliable recovery to take Greninja on.
specially defensive variants, which are solid due to its better ability to handle Zapdos and Tornadus-T, can check Greninja fairly well and possess the ability to heal itself with Pain Split
self explanatory I’m not writing this one out
rising option in the metagame for BO and balance teams that’s bulky enough to tank hits from Greninja and cripple it with Thunder Wave or knock it’s Life Orb or chip it more with Gigaton Hammer
very bulky on the specially defensive side, can phase out Greninja with Dragon Tail if Battle Bond has been activated, putting it out of commission for the game, or just outright KO it with Draco Meteor
Assault Vest sets destroy Greninja, self explanatory as well
has to watch itself around Dark Pulse but it can easily swap into Greninja’s other attacks and possesses reliable recovery to keep doing so. It also enables Pokémon like Hisuian Goodra, Hoopa-U, Tornadus-T, Tinkaton, and more to consistently check Greninja through Wish Support and slow pivoting
Assault Vest sets can stave off hits while threatening Greninja back. Icy Wind is a cool option to lower Greninja’s speed, forcing it to click the less consistent Water Shuriken option to get damage on you before being KOed
Reactive Tera- Lastly there’s reactive Tera options which are a completely valid way to handle Greninja. Slowking, Volcanion, Hydrapple, and Garganacl are just numerous options that can become solid checks to Greninja with tera in an emergency if the team really needs it.

All in all, this is a lot of counterplay to Greninja that I just mentioned. They are all easily able to fit on any archetype from HO to Balance and are also generally good Pokémon in the metagame. You don’t have to resort to dogshit to answer Greninja. Do get me wrong, Greninja is still a very powerful Pokémon and dangerous late game cleaner. It’s easily top 10 for me and if you’ve seen the VR you know it’s ranked A+. However, I just don’t see a world where it’s too overbearing with all the answers we have. I don’t personally see a need to even proceed with tiering action on it nor have it planned in the future. With UUPL coming soon and masters ongoing, we can utilize tournament replays to examine Greninja’s effect on the tier, but as of now I don’t see Greninja as an unbalanced threat and I think it should stay in the metagame.

Since I don’t want to double post, this also serves as an announcement that we will begin to reach a verdict in the coming days on Greninja’s presence in the tier. If you’ve got any last words, please get them in before the thread is closed. It will be locked in about 3 days. We are looking forward to hearing any final thoughts!

 

[ant4456]

IMO Greninja felt kinda broken on launch, but as things got banned freeing up more of the builder, and general optimization, Greninja is at best a low priority target I feel.

I'd rather see different Pokemon get Suspected, or just nothing for Gren altogether. Probably keep it on surveys, though, just in case.

 

[Monky25]

With the way this thread has gone, it’s become apparent to the council that the survey result on Greninja is not quite what it seems and that its potency doesn’t appear to be on the level of something that requires tiering action. There have been no arguments in this thread outright desiring to ban Greninja, with only a few posts thinking it should be looked at, which for the record doesn’t require a suspect test at all. This is very interesting because typically people unsatisfied with the status quo are the ones who are more likely to post, yet only posts saying Greninja isn’t an issue to the degree of needing to be suspect tested are what was made. The consensus among the UU council has remained the same, where an overwhelming majority doesn’t view Greninja as something worth tiering action. Additionally, based on today’s tier shifts, the meta has not shifted in Greninja’s favor. Even though the loss of Alomomola to OU as well as the nerf of AV Hoopa helps Greninja, we have a very strong counter in Toxapex who easily beats Greninja in addition to all the checks we have already. Greninja does have Extrasensory, but it is a massive concession in its movepool and running it will make other Pokémon able to handle Greninja much more easily. As such, while Greninja will be monitored throughout the metagame, as is every Pokémon, it’s no longer on the official radar of the council and the UU council does not have any intent of suspecting Greninja unless something changes. This thread is now locked.