I've been using ChestoRest Recycler Gothitelle as an absolute checkmate to Amoongus and gotta say i like it. Psychic for Stab and Toxic for stalling out walls that can't two shot her. Still, its difficult to find her perfect set, i've used Scarf and Specs as well and while its alright, it isnt amazing.
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Gothitelle Discussion
- Thread starter uxsee
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I've been testing out Gothitelle (FLCL's E-belt set to stop hazards) on a Volt-Turn team so Gothitelle can trap very easily with teammates that can U-turn or Volt Switch. Shovel is right in how Probopass is a great teammate since it lures out Fighting types and how it can Volt Switch into Gothitelle for an easy set up or KO. An interesting "counter" I have found to Gothitelle is U-turn or Volt Switch. Gothitelle's biggest asset is to trap something but U-turn and Volt Switch allows the Pokemon to switch out (and U-turn also hits Gothitelle super-effectively). Gothitelle is a great pokemon since it can rip apart cores built within teams. Some of my teams based on defensive cores are now pointless since Gothitelle can just destroy half the core just by switching in. Gothitelle also has enough bulk to take a Pursuit even when uninvested.
252 Atk Skuntank (+Atk) Pursuit vs 0 HP/0 Def Gothitelle: 85.41% - 101.42%
12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Skuntank (+Atk) Pursuit vs 0 HP/0 Def Gothitelle: 85.41% - 101.42%
12.5% chance to OHKO
Master race subcm set reporting in:
252 Atk Choice Band Absol (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Gothitelle (+Def) : 93.31% - 110.76% (62.5% chance to OHKO
gg.
SubCM is Goth's best set and gets at least 2 guaranteed kills.
I completely agree that SubCM is the best set b/c it is just so easy to get up to plus 6. Specs and FLCL's are cool and unexpected too. Guys, i need something other than probopass and skuntank for team :P.
Gothitelle (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
Shadow Ball will be better than Psychic/Psyshock because you will now hit the whole tier for neutral damage. Also loosing STAB Psychic/Psyshock wouldnt matter as it is more important too take care off oppsiting Psychic and Rock/Steel types without switching out.
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
Shadow Ball will be better than Psychic/Psyshock because you will now hit the whole tier for neutral damage. Also loosing STAB Psychic/Psyshock wouldnt matter as it is more important too take care off oppsiting Psychic and Rock/Steel types without switching out.
Annoyer, you'd be better off running HP Ground. IV change generally won't hurt the matchups too much, plus you've got strong coverage on it and any of the tier's Steel-types save Wormadam, and you will find exactly zero of them.
The matchup with wormadam really isnt that bad as it can just get up to +6 on it and 2HKO it. Plus, Wormadam can rarely 2HKO a sub and gothitelle outspeeds.
Calcs
Hidden Power Ground: 200-235 (61.72 - 72.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Standard Bulky Worm at plus 6)
Wormadam's Gyro Ball: 38-45 (11.04 - 13.08%) -- 9HKO at best
Wormadam's Gyro Ball: 38-45 (11.04 - 13.08%) -- 9HKO at best
Iron Head is better as it 2HKO's Sub, but the one wormadam i saw carried gyro so yeah
Iron Calc
Iron Head: 50-58 (14.53 - 16.86%) -- 9HKO at best
All in all, wormadam isnt really a counter and is massive set up fodder for gothitelle.
Probopass made it as a teammate <3 I love it too much.
Anyway, I've been tinkering with Dual Screen support, but the Pokemon that learn them are generally Psychic type. So, with the mild success of luring in fighting types, Audino works a little bit.
Audino (M) @ Light Clay
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Wish/Healing Wish
- Toxic (/ Heal Bell/ Thunder Wave)
The goal is sort of the same as Probopass, but this set supports the ever fearsome sub+Calm Mind set. You lure in a fighting type, or something that Gothitelle can set up on with Screens. Then, either pass a Wish to it, or if you want more turns Healing Wish works (for the rocks/ if the opponent switches anticipating your switch to Gothitelle). Wish is generally better if you can pull it off. Toxic is used in the last slot so that Torment Gothitelle can whittle the foes hp. Heal Bell has some uses as well, if your team needs that support more. It's only slashed second if you are using Torment Gothitelle, otherwise Heal Bell will generally help it better. Thunder Wave is a crippling move that can make Gothitelle set up Calm Minds/Whatever before the opposing pokemon can attack.
With Regenerator, Audino can do this multiple times, if Healing Wish is not selected, and it ends up benefiting the whole team anyway, so that other teammates can take out Gothitelle's threats. I've used this to my advantage many times, especially because Audino is already bulky.
Edit: Changed the description a little bit because I didnt remember it got Heal Bell, and I overlooked T-Wave. Thanks to Fun With Knives! (sorry Uxsee)
Anyway, I've been tinkering with Dual Screen support, but the Pokemon that learn them are generally Psychic type. So, with the mild success of luring in fighting types, Audino works a little bit.
Audino (M) @ Light Clay
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Wish/Healing Wish
- Toxic (/ Heal Bell/ Thunder Wave)
The goal is sort of the same as Probopass, but this set supports the ever fearsome sub+Calm Mind set. You lure in a fighting type, or something that Gothitelle can set up on with Screens. Then, either pass a Wish to it, or if you want more turns Healing Wish works (for the rocks/ if the opponent switches anticipating your switch to Gothitelle). Wish is generally better if you can pull it off. Toxic is used in the last slot so that Torment Gothitelle can whittle the foes hp. Heal Bell has some uses as well, if your team needs that support more. It's only slashed second if you are using Torment Gothitelle, otherwise Heal Bell will generally help it better. Thunder Wave is a crippling move that can make Gothitelle set up Calm Minds/Whatever before the opposing pokemon can attack.
With Regenerator, Audino can do this multiple times, if Healing Wish is not selected, and it ends up benefiting the whole team anyway, so that other teammates can take out Gothitelle's threats. I've used this to my advantage many times, especially because Audino is already bulky.
Edit: Changed the description a little bit because I didnt remember it got Heal Bell, and I overlooked T-Wave. Thanks to Fun With Knives! (sorry Uxsee)
Durant isn't NU.
Also, there is a PS! glitch that allows Wormadam to learn moves normally exclusive its other two forms, unless Zarel has fixed it lately, so it still has a little viability with access to Growth.
Edit: Audino is definitely a good Fighting lure, because it's pretty tough to quickly kill one without a dedicated sweeper with a Fighting move, plus it can give Heal Bell and Wish support, come in on Shadow Ball, and it's got Thunder Wave to cripple near any common threat save for Golurk.
Linoone @ Salac Berry
Adamant, Gluttony
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
-Belly Drum
-Extremespeed
-Return
-Shadow Claw
Belly Drum Linoone and Gothitelle make a potent offensive core capable of tearing the entire tier to shreds. Those of us who played proto-NU know how good a Dugtrio+Linoone core was. Gothitelle plays like a slower, more powerful Dugtrio. Destroy your opponent's physical wall, force your opponent to switch, and then have Linoone set up. Your opponent is going to have a hard time stopping a monster with +6 Atk, +1 Spe, and a +2 STAB priority move.
I posted one just a few seconds ago, and I don't want to overdo it, but am I still allowed to post more teammates? For some awful reason I'm finding a lot of supportive ones, and I found some offensive ones, but I want to give others the chance to post their own.
@Linoone idea: It would work out great, as was already said before, and was decided when Dugtrio was lurking. I can't really find solid problems; but what is going to switch out when they see Linoone? Looking at the Team Preview, I am going to assume that your opponent will realize the strategy and play extremely safe around these two. However, I guess this could also end up biting them; safe predictions aren't always the best way to play.
@Linoone idea: It would work out great, as was already said before, and was decided when Dugtrio was lurking. I can't really find solid problems; but what is going to switch out when they see Linoone? Looking at the Team Preview, I am going to assume that your opponent will realize the strategy and play extremely safe around these two. However, I guess this could also end up biting them; safe predictions aren't always the best way to play.
Mawile resists every move Gothitelle usually has, save for HP Ground as I mentioned. With its maximum attack stats (Boosting nature, Life Orb, Sheer Force), it rolls on Gothitelle with Crunch (53% minimum, guaranteed 2HKO), and takes on Linoone with heavy resistances and a powerful Iron Head, which is a guaranteed OHKO after Belly Drum and a 2HKO, possible (35%) OHKO without.
It tanks their moves well too, with +4 ExtremeSpeed not even OHKOing it. Gothitelle's Psychic 3HKOs with a maxed SpA.
Go ahead. Post like 6 more. Idk really :P
Liepard @ Life Orb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Encore
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power (Fighting]
- Nasty Plot
NP Liepard is an great counter too Gothitelle as it can just Encore it after it has killed a mon on your team (Yes you probably have to sac a mon if dont have any U-Turn or Volt Switch users), but anyway this set is easy, Encore and just NP too +6 and KO Gothitelle.
Cacturne @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Encore
- Sucker Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance / Spikes
Cacturne might be one off the best counters too Gothitelle as it can Encore it just like Liepard. But here is the differense you could either 2HKO with Sucker Punch, since Gothitelle has to be locked into a move like Psychic ofc, or you can can SD once and OHKO with Sucker Punch. So the reason why Cacturne is a little bit better is because it can KO Gothitelle faster than Liepard, but Liepard has Dark Pulse and can come in on a Sub and Encore (That would be tricky tho). LO for hitting hard enough too OHKO Gothitelle after SR (if not behind a sub) Leftovers for some usefull recovery.
You certainly are great with obscure (unseen) Pokemon, and I think we all know that by now.
Anyway, let's see here. I think Scraggy can be decent, just for the fact that it can take out Psychic and Steel types, while being a threat to the rest of the team if it is allowed to set-up. It is, again, another pokemon weak to fighting that is helped by Gothitelle.
As stated, Payback can be used to stop Gothitelle's fellow Psychic types, while also scoring notable damage on Ghost types which are also super effective. Crunch can be used, but Scraggy only has 132 speed. Drain Punch hits steel types pretty well, allowing Gothitelle an easier sweep. It can Rest off the damage it takes, so it can continue it's sweep (Shed Skin stops rest), or have enough hp to switch into an attack against Gothitelle and Bulk Up/Retaliate.
Scraggy (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Payback
- Rest
This set is also a decent Counter if Gothitelle is not running Trick or Hp Fighting. If neither are readily available, it can Bulk Up all over it, take it out with a few boosts (I dunno how many) with Payback, resting off any sustained damage.
Ill edit in something in a minute, I have to check something.
Edit: Okay, I was thinking about Weezing. But :L
Liepard @ Life Orb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Encore
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power (Fighting]
- Nasty Plot
NP Liepard is an great counter too Gothitelle as it can just Encore it after it has killed a mon on your team (Yes you probably have to sac a mon if dont have any U-Turn or Volt Switch users), but anyway this set is easy, Encore and just NP too +6 and KO Gothitelle.
This only works if your mon died to Psychic, as any other move is going to rip through Liepards paper thin 64/50/50 defenses.
I know that, and Psyshock/Psychic is it's STAB moves, Probopass can Volt Switch on Gothitelle's Sub or CM and bring in Liepard. Also Gothitelle would like to set up on other mons like Alomomola and Amoonguss, and its obvious that its going too use Psychic/Psyshock too KO those. That means you can easely set up on Gothitelle. All this is the same for Cacturne.
PS: Psychic/Psyshock and HP Fighting/Signal Beam will rip through most mons after +6 including Skuntank as it will never OHKO Gothitelle even after SR with LO, that means Gothitelle wins as it 2HKO's it. So based on counters there is probably none that can OHKO Gothitelle back after breaking its sub without Encoring it.
That only works if it doesnt use HP Fighting, if it does liepard is pretty much screwed. Id say it more of a check than a counter.
Scraggy as a possible counter and a Teammate. I was thinking about Weezing too, for Will-o-Wisp on Absol. But it's not too great in retrospect.
@Cacturne: Sucker Punch is good, but you should run calcs to see how much Hidden Power fighting, with Expert Belt and Specs, could actually do to Cacturne. Im too lazy right now :L
@Cacturne: Sucker Punch is good, but you should run calcs to see how much Hidden Power fighting, with Expert Belt and Specs, could actually do to Cacturne. Im too lazy right now :L
You will not send Cacturne into HP Fighting lol, it is ment to come in after a Psychic or into Psychic and then Encore and Set-Up.
Not sending Cacturne out into an Hp Fighting = Not Volt Switching with Probopass. Except for the fact that that was said when dealing with Liepard.
252Atk Life Orb Cacturne (Neutral) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/0Def Gothitelle (Neutral): 94% - 111% (326 - 384 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 68% chance to OHKO.
Generally the specs set will come in and die, obviously. The Expert Belt set shouldn't stay in ever, and the Specs set can only stay in if it's risky. But that's what makes teammates helpful. Cacturne is solid, it's just at the unfortunate cost of a partner usually, and sadly.
Edit: @BROStime (below): Cacturne can still can take out the other variants; TormentTelle can't hit it, and the above calc is relevant.
252Atk Life Orb Cacturne (Neutral) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/0Def Gothitelle (Neutral): 94% - 111% (326 - 384 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 68% chance to OHKO.
Generally the specs set will come in and die, obviously. The Expert Belt set shouldn't stay in ever, and the Specs set can only stay in if it's risky. But that's what makes teammates helpful. Cacturne is solid, it's just at the unfortunate cost of a partner usually, and sadly.
Edit: @BROStime (below): Cacturne can still can take out the other variants; TormentTelle can't hit it, and the above calc is relevant.
If you're Volt Switching with Probopass then Cacturne will get in freely on Gothi since even a Probopass running enough speed to outspeed Standard Golem would still be slower than any variant of Gothitelle. Your calc isn't really relevant since most Cacturne are Adamant and most are currently the Spikes / Encore / Bullet Seed / Sucker Punch set with Leftovers. Not to mention Gothitelle is likely to be 4 HP only when running an offensive build or a 252 HP / 252 Def if running Calm Mind. I haven't seen many Gothitelle on ladder yet, but I'm assuming that the standard offensive moves for SubCalm Mind would end up being Psychic and Signal Beam since they provide excellent coverage together, and only really misses out of Probopass and Klang; Probopass who can't do much back, while Klang won't be taking a hit too well if Gothi get enough boosts up. I will definitely agree that Cacturne can be a great way to handle Gothitelle, and going back to the Probopass situation, if SubCM Gothi comes into Probopass, a simple Volt Switch to Cacturne will put it in checkmate. Thanks to Cacturne being faster than a SubCM set it can Encore Gothitelle into Substitute or Calm Mind and begin wearing it down with Bullet Seed or setting up Spikes. Against an offensive build, here is the damage from Sucker Punch: 252 Atk Cacturne (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Gothitelle: 97.87% - 115.96% (87.5% chance to OHKO) ~Basically a guaranteed kill, and Stealth Rock are more than likely to be up with the lack of people using Rapid Spin users.
On the discussion of Gothitelle, from what I have seen from it I would have to say that its best set would probably be Specs, since it can be threatening even against a team that doesn't pack anything SubCM could set up on. That's really SubCM's biggest weakness as a set in my opinion, since it relies a lot on the opponent being underprepared or carelessly leaving Pokemon out that it could set up on. Shadow Tag Gothitelle should be well known by now and if you make a team completely disregarding it or decide to careless strut your Gothi weak Pokemon out, you deserve to be obliterated by a +6 Gothitelle. In other words don't have your Emboar out, notice you opponent has a Gothitelle sitting on the back of their team and decide, "Hey! I should lock myself into Superpower...what could possible go wrong?!"
Actually, I only meant the calc was relevant for the set he posted :p And I will be honest and say that I didnt even think about Probopass's speed at the time. And I love Probopass..
And, looking at your calc the damage is pretty much the same, but the difference is Gothitelle is running a lot less Bulk with Cacturne having only a little more attack. This is a little off topic, but I think that means the calculator I use may have been wrong ;-;?
Edit: Needed to actually add to the discussion without an almost useless post. I've seen a lot of people carelessly getting boosts with Gothitelle, and not switching when something threatens them. I'm not accusing you all of this, but, it's happening. I had my Sub+Salac berry Samurott in, and after it got a kill they switched in Gothitelle. Surf easily did 50% (actually, that was prolly close to max), spikes did 12%, and rocks did 12%, and they decided to Calm Mind. Don't be careless with Gothitelle; know when you can set-up. This could have went without being said.
Also, I've battled some people with Rest > Substitute. I thought this was pretty interesting; coming in on something that can't threaten you in the slightest, especially under screens (Screens weren't up at this time), then boosting until you can rest. Then, as you sustain small damage, just retaliate.
I only find that useful for the recovery aspect. Otherwise, sub it generally better for blocking Priority in a way, and blocking status without possibly wasting some turns in which your opponent has the chance of getting a critical hit while you sleep. Sub also allows you to be ready for the next Pokemon to come in.
And, looking at your calc the damage is pretty much the same, but the difference is Gothitelle is running a lot less Bulk with Cacturne having only a little more attack. This is a little off topic, but I think that means the calculator I use may have been wrong ;-;?
Edit: Needed to actually add to the discussion without an almost useless post. I've seen a lot of people carelessly getting boosts with Gothitelle, and not switching when something threatens them. I'm not accusing you all of this, but, it's happening. I had my Sub+Salac berry Samurott in, and after it got a kill they switched in Gothitelle. Surf easily did 50% (actually, that was prolly close to max), spikes did 12%, and rocks did 12%, and they decided to Calm Mind. Don't be careless with Gothitelle; know when you can set-up. This could have went without being said.
Also, I've battled some people with Rest > Substitute. I thought this was pretty interesting; coming in on something that can't threaten you in the slightest, especially under screens (Screens weren't up at this time), then boosting until you can rest. Then, as you sustain small damage, just retaliate.
I only find that useful for the recovery aspect. Otherwise, sub it generally better for blocking Priority in a way, and blocking status without possibly wasting some turns in which your opponent has the chance of getting a critical hit while you sleep. Sub also allows you to be ready for the next Pokemon to come in.
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