Gliscor Suspect -- Qualified Discussion

[Finchinator]

Gliscor has been suspect tested from SV OU, which you can see here. This thread will be used as "qualified" discussion per the decision made here!

This means that if you qualified for the Kyurem suspect test here or qualify for this suspect test, you can post here (and/or in the public thread if you wish). If you have any questions, PM me and if you post, but do not qualify, your post will be deleted and you will be infracted. Here are some prompting questions to get the ball rolling:

• Do you think Gliscor deserves a ban in SV OU? Why or why not?
• What sets do you think put it over the edge if you think it is broken?
• What checks or counters to it are sufficient if you think it is not broken?
• Have there been any new developments pertaining to using or facing Gliscor that helped shape your opinion? If so, what are they?
• If you are undecided, what are your overall thoughts on Gliscor and what are you looking at to reach a conclusion?

Please note normal suspect posting rules do apply here.

Suspect test rules

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Gliscor is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Gliscor vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Please use this thread to discuss Gliscor's suspect test! Some prompting questions

The suspect reasoning, directly from Lily's OP, can be found below:

In fitting with the rule of threes, Gliscor is the third Pokemon to get a second SV OU suspect test. Unlike Kyurem, which evaded a ban the first time and then sorta-kinda-maybe-barely evaded it a second time, Gliscor was removed from the tier during the Teal Mask DLC, largely off the strength of its Spikes sets. Nowadays, things are different; while Spikes is far from a thing of the past, Gliscor's Swords Dance sets have proven themselves to be extremely formidable, aided by its rainbow of Tera types and a few different coverage options. Much like Dragonite, Gliscor has decided STAB is a social construct and frequently finds itself branching out into Facade + Knock Off sets, while its typical Earthquake + Facade combination is still just as lethal against teams lacking an Air Balloon Gholdengo or a steel bird. Worse yet is Gliscor's bulk and EV customisation letting it pull off a lot more than it would seem; it can run extremely bulky sets that can tank hits from strong special attackers like Raging Bolt, be impenetrable on the physical side in the face of Kingambit and Iron Defense Zamazenta, or just avoid taking hits altogether by outrunning a ton of the unboosted metagame, getting the jump on Raging Bolt, Great Tusk, and Landorus-T with a Jolly nature.

It isn't a perfect world for Gliscor, of course; while near immunity to hazard damage is a possibility thanks to its incredible base typing and Poison Heal, it's that same typing that puts Gliscor into awkward situations against attackers like Ogerpon-W, Kyurem, and Samurott-H. Gliscor can - and often does! - get past these with Tera, but that comes at a price; Gliscor is now vulnerable to the Spikes it loves to abuse, and suddenly that impenetrable bulk doesn't seem so tough to beat. Even with Tera aside, there are plenty of nuclear special attackers that can prey on Gliscor's middling special bulk even when fully invested; Iron Valiant, Choice Specs Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Dragapult all cause the bat major issues, to say nothing of Pokemon that can fit Ice coverage onto sets like Deoxys-S and Assault Vest Galarian Slowking. Using Gliscor defensively can also be a challenge due to its loss of Roost; while there are quite a few foes that can't put much damage into it at all such as Landorus-T and non-Ice Hammer Tinkaton, switching into things it'd really like to be able to check like Iron Moth can often result in Gliscor scrambling for turns to heal itself up. This commonly results in Gliscor being paired with other Ground-types - usually Ting-Lu - and thus limiting the structures it can fit on.

All of this mostly applies to the Swords Dance sets, though. Spikes Gliscor is still alive and kicking, and with it comes a whole different host of counterplay. While it's not as immediately dangerous as a boosted Facade, Gliscor's Toxic can be a slow burn for anything that can't threaten it quickly enough like Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Cinderace, Moltres, and Zapdos. Gliscor is also a Spiker that easily outlasts essentially all forms of hazard removal thanks to its ability to directly threaten the elephant duo of Great Tusk and Iron Treads, while letting its partner in crime Gholdengo handle rogue Corviknights. This set can be suffocating for teams that don't pack enough of an explosive punch to take it out quickly; even if you do manage to KO Gliscor, it can often be too late if it's managed to get a couple of Toxics off and a Spike up.

Gliscor has been a hot topic within the community for months now. Even before the Kyurem ban-unban fiasco, sentiment was building that Gliscor has too much of a chokehold on SV OU; it is a bastion of longevity in a metagame characterised by a lack of staying power, and that can and does result in its value-per-game being heavily skewed in the favour of the Gliscor user. The council has come to the conclusion that even with Kyurem's presence, Gliscor is a controversial enough presence that it should be tested.

Thank you to everyone for participating in this discussion! We will reevaluate the need for this thread after the suspect ends, so if you like the idea and qualify, please post your thoughts on the suspect.

VIEW VOTER REQS HERE

 

[Finchinator]

This thread will be locked 24h for people to collect their thoughts.

 

[Finchinator]

Hello, this thread is now open for Gliscor discussion!

Please remember the suspect specifics mentioned above (post #2) and feel free to check the list of verified voters (or see if you qualify) here! Everyone who voted legitimately during Kyurem or qualified already for this test already is free to post. Some members of the council will be chiming in, too -- we are making a push to engage with the community more, so stay tuned.

 

[Magcargo]

Banning Gliscor would be the worst decision for the SV OU metagame, barring perhaps a Gholdengo, Zamazenta, or Kingambit ban.

For months, OU's finest players like Pinkacross have been complaining that Balance teams and Stall teams are mid, while mindless offensive teams reign supreme. This is due to a number of factors - an overwhelming number of new threats, with limited slots to counter, Terastalization, powercreep, limited hazard removal, and a dirth of general defensive Pokemon. Enter Gliscor - OU's finest progress maker, with the ability to compress a great amount of utility in one slot between its ability to act as a Knock and status absorber, providing its team with a plethora of role compression between Knock Off, U-turn, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Toxic Spikes, serving as a great wincon on balance teams with Swords Dance, and soft checking a great deal of threats such Great Tusk, Zapdos, Moltres, Raging Bolt, and more. Sure at times, Gliscor's progress making / denying capabilities may be too much, but such abilities are necessary for balance and stall teams to survive in such a powercrept metagame given the threat level of the offensive Pokemon like Kyurem or Raging Bolt. Gliscor's presence has allowed a great number of honest defensive Pokemon previously thought to be phased out of the metagame - like Dondozo, Corviknight, Skarmory, Toxapex, Clodsire, Blissey, and more - to still retain a job, as it proves to be the perfect partner for these Pokemon, acting as a critical Knock Off absorber, and beneficiary of these Pokemon's defensive talents and attributes (such as benefiting from Clod's ability to setup Spikes).

There are arguments that SD Scor itself is the greatest limiter of Balance and Stall teams with its SD set, but this argument once again is paradoxical. Like many supposed "balance invalidators" before it, SD Scor typically finds itself fitting best ON balance teams, as a reliable wincon against a plethora of mid-range styles. In practice Gliscor winds up being one of balance's best pieces with both its utility and SD sets, given its powerful defensive role compression of being a Knock absorber and status absorber regardless of what set it runs. SD Scor is a bit more effective against stall, but ask any of the actual stall players - the supposed victims of SD Gliscor's reign of tyranny - and they will all tell you that Gliscors presence is a net positive for stall given its invaluable utility as a progress maker with Spikes and Knock Off, while single handedly saving stall from being 6-0'd by lower end Knock Off users such as Iron Valiant or Great Tusk. Both styles have seen innovative new developments in terms of Gliscor counterplay, whether it be a resurgence in corviknight and skarmory usage, Sticky Barb Clefable (which will completely cripple Gliscor should it go for the attack), a multitude of Ice Beam lures, their own Gliscor, Zamazenta, Dondozo, Pecha + Zamazenta cores, and more. Furthermore, while SD Gliscor can supposedly run a multitude of EV spreads on its SD Set, each comes with its own drawback. Specially defensive spreads wind up being moderately slow, while hitting like a noodle off the bat, while fast SD Scor winds but being surprisingly frail and still not hitting too hard either unless it runs max attack (which winds up being incredibly frail, being OHKO'd by Boots Raging Bolt Draco Meteor for example).

During the previous suspect in DLC1, I truly did believe Gliscor to be borderline insurmountable and overcentralizing given metagame factors at that time. However, OU is different now. Gliscor is different. The once oppressive Spikes set that got Gliscor banned in DLC1 can find itself struggling to reliably handle new threats in the OU metagame, such as Raging Bolt, and with more Great Tusk running Ice Spinner than ever, it can struggle against that as well. We have awesome new additions like Kyurem and Darkrai that can act as a team's dedicated Ice Beamer for Gliscor, underrated Triple Axel Pokemon like Meowscarada and Weavile that also perform effectively against it, Psychic Noise users like Primarina, Latios, and Iron Crown that help keep up the pressure against Gliscor and its team and a whole host of other developments and pressure tools against Gliscor like Taunt Landorus-T. We have seen OU's top players innovate counterplay. Players like Vert brought back Manaphy on bulky offense as a reliable Ice Beam option against Gliscor, CTC recently created the popular Sinistcha Keldeo team, with Keldeo being a great Pokemon to threaten Gliscor both in its base typing and if it Tera Normals, and Storm Zone recently brought up multiple Tera Ice Pokemon like Skeledirge, Hydrappl, Kingambit, and more which can offensively lure Gliscor and have additional utility against Pokemon like Kyurem as well. Rather than complain, OU's best players like CTC (RIP), like Vert (RIP), like Storm Zone are able to develop multifaceted counterplay to Gliscor. I think its time we took a que from these players and attempt to do the same.

Lastly, Gliscor's presence does wonders in keeping many of the uncompetitive RNG Pokemon like Zapdos, Iron Moth, and Moltres, down, which is a net postitve for the metagame, promoting more skill based Pokemon in their place like Corviknight. This is something that should be celebrated and is wonderful at reducing variance as a whole.

I WILL VOTE DO NOT BAN ON GLISCOR! Stall and Balance must LIVE another day!​

 

[Stories]

but such abilities are necessary for balance and stall teams to survie

ngl I would argue Gliscor makes life HARDER for balance and stall teams. SD Knock with hazard support pretty decidedly owns stall if you can pressure Skarm / Corv with teammates even remotely and balance teams have to look towards short-term solutions like forcing Tera and attempting to beat it with Zamazenta.

 

[Finchinator]

I agree with Stories. The main argument to remove Gliscor is the fact that it invalidates bulkier teams with the SD sets over time. It being used more on certain archtypes is not reason to keep or remove it, but rather just simple facts. Balance teams really struggle to handle SD Gliscor and this should be at the forefront of discussion -- do we have enough? Is the tier adapting to it? etc.

I will make a longer post with a full opinion later as I am not fully decided yet, but the logic "X is used on Y archetype, so we cannot ban it" is not really what we should be looking at so much as "X has enough counterplay across archetypes" or "X does not have enough counterplay across archetypes".

 

[WhimsicottIsBroken]

Hello all, I've qualified to vote for the Gliscor test. If my account now drops below 1750, do I lose the ability to vote? Please advise

 

[Finchinator]

Hello all, I've qualified to vote for the Gliscor test. If my account now drops below 1750, do I lose the ability to vote? Please advise

You are all good. Doesn’t matter if it drops below or not in the future.

 

[CaptainKing06]

Gliscor should be banned. Fast SD is really wild and flips the matchup on BO structures that rely on things like tusk, ghold, bolt, hrott, etc to get hits off. This combined with its plethora of other options solidified my view that it is broken. SD tera normal helps mitigate two of its flaws by giving gliscor a high pp 140 bp stab move with no drawbacks patching up the ice weakness and lack of initial power issue. Unless you're playing HO, almost always will you have 1-2 mons on your team that gliscor can sit on. During these turns it either knocks, spikes, sds or toxics and regains insane amounts of hp crippling future switchins. The way it uninteractively abuses fat teams with SD sets and subdues offensive structures with tox tect stalling plus hazard stack is not healthy for sv ou.

You should aim to kill it ASAP which is most easily done with ice and water attacks. Kyurem is very good, weavile and meow are meh, ice spinner is a must on tusk, beam is common on darkrai, beam is good on av gking, and ice fang is solid on aoa zama. Oger-w is fantastic, wake is a sun staple, prim and hrott are good.

None of these mons have a reliable recovery move thus every single one of them despises taking a toxic. You can avoid toxic with a slow pivot corv, your own gliscor, moltres which hates toxic/knock, mola can stomach knock/toxic though spikes going up really start to chip it, sometimes you chilly with gking though its never the first choice. Most of these, particularly corv and other gliscor, do little damage to gliscor so it gets to heal up for free and set more spikes. Meanwhile SD sets flip the matchup straight up on a lot of the aforementioned ice and water attackers with tera normal. Because of this you'll see teams that try to force tera then have a strong fighting move and/or lots of hazards to finish this off. I'm used to using a plethora of soft checks this gen vs the top tier threats, though in gliscors instance this feels most especially forced, pushing it over the edge.

A core of steel bird/kyurem/zama whether it be the team xavgb brought to olt finals with spike ww skarm, those corv/ting/kyu/zama teams, or a gweez build are probably the most anti sd gliscor structures that arent straight HO. Gliscor makes it painfully blatant this is a 6v6 game so let's address how its teammates can fight back. Moltres can burn the corv on u turn or body press, tusk can spin easier vs helmetless skarm making teraing gliscor to kill kyurem less punishing while simultaneously freeing up your kyurem check like gking or tinka allowing them to do their thing, among other interactions. A utility set vs the aforementioned cores simply spikes up and potentially knocks to support its teammates whatever they may be.

What's obnoxious is how gliscor plays the long game in both the SD and utility sets. SD at times doesn't even have to and when it doesn't it's most ridiculous. For HO teams that can overwhelm SD glisc by giving it little breathing room there's still utility sets which noxiously are best handled by SD gliscor, another part of this mon I consider unhealthy.

 

[Achohermano]

Gliscor is one of the top defensive Pokémon and crucial to the stall playstyle, yes, but it also is the Pokémon that punishes stall/semi-stall/balance the hardest out of the wincons in the tier (and out of all the Pokémon alongside Clefable really), so it's a bit tricky to tackle it tbh. I do think that it's a Pokémon that goes over the edge, and that you need to prepare your team with multiple answers just for it, while Gliscor can of course deal with those answers easily by its team mates.

Gliscor is the win condition with the most longevity in SV OU, by a mile, and it punishes hardly every single mistake long term wise, while being a Pokémon that allows a lot of margin for missplays, imo. SD sets by themselves destroy defensive / balance teams to the same degree as Waterpon, perhaps even harder.
While at the same time, defensive Gliscor only needs a couple of turns to put the wincons of an BO / HO team in a timer and win on the long run.

Waterpon won't OHKO without tera:
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Tusk won't either be nearly close to OHKO with Ice Spinner:
4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 236-280 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

And after surviving the hit, Gliscor lands a Toxic, and starts chip healing while the opponent will get punished every time its Gliscor's answer now switches in (this without counting possible hazards laid by either Gliscor or its team mates).

Of course, Gliscor can't SD, Toxic, be bulky on the physical and special side all at the same time... However, it has tools to punishes its answers (with mostly overlaps in all of its sets) in both its tanky utility and sweeper set. Also, I think that Gliscor is the mon the punishes the most not loading Kyurem or Waterpon on the ladder xD.

The only way to truly deal with Gliscor is by surprising it with an Ice Beam from stuff like Glowking or Clefable, or the Gliscor user being silly and staying on stuff like Weavile or Meowscarada and not switch out to ice resist / moltres it will 100% be paired with. You have to OHKO, Gliscor negates the fundamental tool of chip damage and that's something I honestly dislike.

You have answers, of course (Gweez, ID Corv / Skarm, Sub Kyurem most of the time) but all of them as I've said can get worn out much faster than Gliscor.

While not being as problematic as other Pokémon short term wise, I think this Pokémon was already broken with Gouging Fire and Volcarona in the tier, and it should be banned.

 

[Fleet_Fox]

Pre Kyurem unban I think Gliscor was insane and I still don’t think there are enough answers to it in the current meta. It’s restrictive on team building, especially for balance, and the sd set makes it even harder for stall/balance.
Kyurem/waterpon feel like the only reliable checks to Gliscor - Hat, Glowking, darkrai, prim can ice beam it or try and set up but the sd set with Tera can muscle past them. Defensive Tera lets it deal with meow and weavile and it can protect to scout moves and make a switch or Tera .
Gliscor is less restrictive now that kyurem is back, but I think defensive teams don’t have enough options to deal with it.

I’m leaning ban, but I’d like to hear what everyone else has to say

 

[JackRG]

Honestly, I'm still unsure about whether I think it is broken or not. However, given how insufferable the metagame has become, I can't it good faith vote to keep it the way it currently is, so I'm going to vote ban.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

I used a stall team with SD tera dark Glis to qual and it was a pretty easy.

I dont think its broken though. It definitely is a litmus test of if your team works. If you cant threaten Glis team is not playable. Even then tera makes it pretty silly. But I can say that about a lot of things.

On stall its a perfect mon though and thats about the only build I could find it being really really iffy because all it takes is toxic spikes sticking and its a very difficult time for most common builds.

I didnt run into it much on the ladder and when I did it was negligible into me as they were running hazards.

Ill be voting DNB as personally I only find it to be oppressive with stall as it allows him to freely run weird teras and movesets because every thing else carries. On hazard stack builds it can be a dud too often. Its much easier to play around.

I think its fine to have shit thats super strong into certain mus and okay into others.

 

[lucky333]

Now that I have gotten reqs, time to add my opinion. I am firmly DnB Gliscor. I have made a post in the metagame thread, so I will copy all the points I have made over here. Most of of them are mainly talking about the SD set but the bulky sets get a mention too.

Low initial power
It is extremely weak. Uninvested EQ doesn't even 2HKO bulky Gambit pre-Tera(which means Gambit beats it 1vs1 with some fallen) and needs to setup to +4 to even 2hKO a HP invested Great Tusk. That+ it's middling speed even invested means that it's basically dead weight against A LOT of offensive structures that can brute force Gliscor with hard hitters like Kyurem, Walking Wake for sun, any choiced user or setup in it's face with stuff like Zama, Tusk or balloon Gambit (with tera serving as an extra backup). Fatter teams can also take advantage of it. Generally against fatter structures it will first setup or knock and you have plenty of answers for this. Corv is an excellent switch-in, taking nothing even from +6 attacks and serving as a great pivot to get in some of your more offensive mons to threaten Glis. Sub Zama beats it 1vs1 even pre-tera, Weavile too, Great Tusk with both CC and Ice Spinner cover multiple Gliscor options like Tera Normal, Ogerpon-W shits on most teams that Gliscor finds itself into, Darkrai shits on most Glscors+ their teams too ect.... Heck even a Glowking can take an unboosted EQ and Ice Beam it because it is that fucking weak.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2229118905-igryj0ct7rw2gailtucm511yqe3xmh4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-798279?p2

You can also also try to damage it and then whirlwind/roar it out so even if it does heal some HP it wont outheal your damage and by doing this over and over you can eventually wear it down. Mons like Moltres or Ting Lu take nothing from Glis they can stay in a couple of turns, damage it and then whirlwind it out. . Dozo also shuts down any Gliscor attempt to sweep a stall team. I know you are gonna go "but they don't like being knocked." If you let the opponent get up hazards and your key mon getting knocked, that means you messed up.


Dead Turns
Gliscor will have a lot of turn where it will have to protect or setup something. You can easily, EASILY take advantage of that. Taunt can prevent setup. Encore mons can lock Gliscor into something very undesirable. Imagine your Glis using protect while Iron Valiant comes in, encores you and sets up in your face. Imagine SDing while the opponent takes advantage of that and gets in scary breakers like Kyurem or Oger that force you out and can decimate entire teams. Gliscor requires you make the RIGHT plays, otherwise it will be huge momentum sink. It's very vulnerable to aggressive plays. And if you mispredict the Gliscor and you get toxic'd or something, I am sorry to say but that means the opponent outplayed you, not that Glis is broken.

The Tera Paradox
Glis is often cited to be able to bypass it's checks with Tera and I am like "How is that special from anything here in this tier?" How is that different from Kyurem, Zama, Bolt, Gambit, *insert offensive mon xyz. And no, he doesn't do it on a "grander scale". Gliscor will always be stuck in it's middling speed unlike others that have a naturally high speed tier, ability to boost speed or priority while also sporting higher initial power. Gliscor at best will punch a hole but it will never ever win outright for gaining momentum unlike shit like Kyurem, a mon that can reliably wallbreak and also win games with the right turn(the fact that you can do both means it puts a huge strain on the builder and on your plays) but the community deemed this fine. Forcing out a Tera also means Glis will be extremely vulnerable to hazard stack. Both offensive and bulky variants are probably the nr. 1 playstyle right now(and most annoying). Also it is extremely easy to predict it's tera type.

SD variants are either Tera Normal, Dark or Ghost. Passive variants are either water, steel, ghost or dragon non that are problematic. Any other Tera doesn't really help it. A lot more predictable then stuff like Gambit or Dragonite or Bolt, or Zama or Kyurem or........

How to beat this mon with fat teams
Fat teams like stall have Sticky Barb Clef that can negate it's recovery and make any chip stick(just knock them first). Garg can also do that with salt cure and it is honestly not taking much from unboosted EQs anyway(it also has tera). The metal birds and Moltres serve as an excellent buffer zone to get in your more offensive mons. Taunt lando can also work on non ice fang variants. Mola is taking nothing from any of Glis attacks and can flip in to get a more offensive presence like a choiced mon like CS Valiant. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-796057

There is also the counterplay I have explained above ,attacking it and then phazing it out. Dozo also works on stall and some balance variants. Getting knocked should not be a problem. Balance teams should not focus on checking Gliscor long term. They should use their defensive answers as a buffer zone to get in their more offensively threatning mons and make progress. Stall teams have enough longevity to withstand Gliscors assault and they should have a plan for Knock+hazard stack teams anyway otherwise they lose to way more things then just Gliscor.

4 movepool syndrom
We have always said this to defend versatile broken shit but it actually applies here. 2 of it's moveslots are occupied with Protect+SD but then what? If it runs Knock+Eq it loses to bulky flying types, Facade+knock HANDILY loses to Gambit, Garg and sometimes Bolt, EQ+facade lose to balloon Ghold. And unlike other broken shit, it cannot win games outright even with the right set(that is if the opponent has actually crafted a competent team) unlike mons like Kyurem since it has a middling speed and gets threatened by a lot of offensive threats. Also the same thing with EV investment. Do I go max speed to outpace Tusk, Lando,Bolt and tie Kyurem but also give up my ability to tank strong hits like Draco from Bolt as well? Or do I invest in bulk and accept mons like Dragonite outspeeding me? Do I invest in attack so I am not so passive unboosted?

"This mon cannot be walled long term. It can just switch out, outlast it's checks and come back later"
Yes and? It is a strong piece for teams with long term plans. Gliscor rewards good, consistent plays and a very strong tool for players that prefer long term strategies. It will only outlast them if you LET THEM. Go into the dead turn section of my post, you can take advantage of this. DONT BE IMPATIENT, ITS OKAY IF IT HEALS SOME HP BUT ALSO DONT BE AFRAID TO BE AGGRESSIVE. Also if I have an Ogerpon in for example, which Gliscor member actually wants to switch into this guy? Is the strategy here to slowly sack your team one by one?

Meta Solutions
Pre tera:
Great Tusk(Ice spinner), Dragonite(Ice spinner), Skarm, Zama(not on knock though+should be sub can also be ice fang), Ogerpon, Ting-Lu(ruinate and then whirlwind), strong choiced users, offensive water types like Wake, Meow, +bulky pivot like Mola, lando, Corv, Molt, Zap, Darkrai, Rilla, Kyurem, Gambit with tera, Samurott, Deoxys with IB, Primarina

Normal:
Zama(all variants) Lowkick Gambit, strong choiced mons like Wake or Valiant still work, physical Valiant, Corv, Skarm, CC Tusk, FB Darkrai, strong fighting types, Deoxys with PB and fighting move,

Ghost:
Dark types, Ghost types, Zama with crunch, Deoxys, bulky pivots still work ect... As you can see there is a lot of overlap

General if you don't have an outright answer: Damage it and then whirlwind/roar it out so even if it does heal some HP it wont outheal your damage and by doing this over and over you can eventually wear it down. Bulky pivots still works to get in a strong attacker like choiced mons or Ursaluna or sth.. Or build a better team. There are plenty of meta answers.

Other unorthodox solutions
Psychic Noise from the likes of Hatterence or Prim makes it so any chip WILL stay and Gliscor either lose the 1vs1 or switch out giving you the momentum.
Tera steel levitate mons like Hydreigon https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-800400
Rotom-W also works on non facade variants.(and offensive water types in general)
Bulky unaware setup mons like Unaware Clef setting up alongside it. Or a tera'd Skeledirge
G-weezing if played smart.
Ice beam T-tar( if not EQ), or ice lures in general
Weavile (pre tera)
Keldeo beats regular and tera normal variants

Hazard variants have alot of overlap counterplay with the above solutions and are passive as hell. They are also very vulnerable to offensive sub mons like moon here, having the potential to decimate entire teams https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2202982529-zpkq42hydvo16zzsmredr9ztxcqvb6ipw

DO NOT BAN this mon. In a meta this offensive, this mon is a non-issue. It is only oppressive to badly structured teams or ppl who have a short temper cause "of protect"(even if Kyurem is doing the same and much unhealthier at it?). Let the meta settle for now and give ppl time to identify the actual broken mons.

Tldr: Gliscor has plenty of counterplay. It's low initial power and middling speed means SD Gliscor is deadweight against any strong offense team, reliance on moves that can cause telegraphed turns like protect can be taken advantage of with set-up, encore or switching, has to choose between outspeeding important mons like Tusk, Bolt, D-nite or tanking hits from stuff like Bolt draco or Kingambit and other threats. There are also a lot of meta and unorthodox answers.

Even if we are talking about the bulky hazard toxic set being oppressive to offense, it really isn't that much of a big deal. Offense mons can slot in taunt mons, substitute sweepers as I have shown in the above replay to take advantage of the passiveness of bulky Gliscors and general hard hitters like Choiced users, booster energy mons like Moon, Kyurem, Ogerpon-W, Wake ect... that are also overlapping answers for SD sets. Not to mention, a lot of these options fit on balance teams too and balance users can use mons like Hex Dragapult to force a tera and make Gliscor lose to different things like 4attack Zama or hazard stacking. I understand that mons like Great Tusk IceSpinner don't 1HKO it but I honestly think that is fine, it will put it in range for a lot of strong hard hitters or another Glis answer to finish it. Sometime it is a team effort to take it down but that is what a well structured team is there for, isn't it?

I think every playstyle except MAYBE stall have ways to deal with it but doing so requires good team synergy, navigating through your turns properly and positiong your breakers well. The Gliscor user has to do the same and get the turns right cause if it gets a turn wrong against a wrong mon, that extra passive healing aint gonna help as you have seen in the above replay with my HO example.

 

[Cape Canaveral]

Hey, guys, I seem to recall there was a document that outlines Smogon's suspect policy in more detail (i.e. what is 'competitive' or 'broken'). can someone point me to it so I can read it before determining my vote for good? Right now, I'm planning to vote DNB.

I think Gliscor is fine. This might be biased by the fact that I've been playing Sun recently, but in my reqs I played stall, Always Exhaust, and spook's Chansey Offense. And even during the brief period of time where Kyurem was banned, one of its biggest checks, I've never felt unfairly punished by Gliscor.

In my opinion, Gliscor is just unbelievably good at punishing less optimal team comps. But if a team doesn't have the ability to...

• wall a boosting threat
• handle item removal
• do a lot of damage
• keep momentum
• hell, even PP stall

Maybe that's a team that should be punished for it. And it's not as if these teams have to do all of these things at once.

• HO builds only have to deal consistent enough damage, and this generation HO has been notorious for its rapid adaptation.
• Stall teams must pp stall it and handle its boosts, but playing against knock threats (sometimes with boosting) is not unheard of for stall teams, although Gliscor's immense longevity makes it a difficult matchup. However, current stall teams are well prepared for Gliscor and it's certainly playable for competent stall practitioners.
• Offense teams can take advantage of Gliscor's predictable elements and many great offense mons can easily beat Gliscor before Tera.
• Probably balance struggles the most with Gliscor, but I'll refrain from commenting too concretely on the archetype because I haven't played much of it. I'd have to imagine that they have some trouble with stuff like SD Gliscor?

It's not as if Gliscor is the only Pokemon in the format that demands these things, too. I think the perception that it is broken comes from the fact that it presents all these threats, and is by far the most consistent both in matchups and execution. The only archetype I'm a tad concerned about is balance; I'd love to hear some great balance players share their experience here playing both with and against scor. I personally think this is the crux of whether or not Gliscor should be banned.

 

[Cape Canaveral]

Also, I thought about it, and I'd like to posit the (potentially) hot take that even if we all came to the conclusion that Gliscor destroys balance, maybe the balance archetype doesn't have to exist in the way that we typically recognize it for there to be a healthy, competitive metagame. My own experience has been that Gen 9 OU still handsomely rewards variety and skill in teambuilding. Even if certain archetypes are not so viable, there are plenty of structures that unique Pokemon fit on with Gliscor in the tier. (Think Chansey, Lokix, Pecharunt, Volcanion off the top of my head.) That said, I'd still like to get a fuller picture before I make a final decision. If the spectrum of teams that Gliscor performs too well into is too wide, then I suppose there may be grounds for a ban.

 

[LoseToRU?]

You often see casual players upset over Zama because it's a skill check for Offense. You can't build brainless HO and then get upset when Zama reverse sweeps. This archetype for Balance, imo, is Gliscor.
No priority, crippled by Encore/Trick and Taunt to some extent, is a Tera hog, sat on by Dozo, ID Corv, ID Garg & sub Zama, Hex bait unless Tera Normal, loses to Sun/Rain and most HO, Normal is a terrible defensive typing vs offensive mons combined with it already having issues with bulky BP mons, Tera Water is just free lunch for Rilla, Bolt,, Zap, Kyu, etc., Psychic Noise exists, and gives you free turns with Protect. Not a perfect list of flaws but just quickly thinking of some obvious ones.
If you're getting folded by this mon clicking SD then idk what you're doing when Val clicks it. So many hard hitters in this tier only need 1 or 2 turns of set-up and they run away with the game, but especially vs poorly built or outdated team comps.
Balance builders, maybe change that bulky Ghold you're trying to 6-0 Stall with and swap it back to trick/scarf so you don't lose auto-lose to a bulky mon clicking SD. If Ursa clicks SD are you also just clicking X or? How are you handling Gambit? The checks and counters should overlap. If my Gambit has a Lum Berry, you can't Wisp it just the same as you can't Wisp Gliscor. Is that all it takes for your team to fold after I click SD and maybe Tera?
It's a builder issue and an meta adaption issue. Take this Balance sample team by CTC and Lax as an example. If you can't pilot this team well enough that Gliscor is beating you then that's purely a skill issue, with all due respect. This team has multiple answers to all of Gliscor's sets and viable Teras. It's an incredibly well built Balance and what the structure should look like in our current landscape.
On Barron this mon isn't broken fr, just another SV beast that demands respect.

 

[TMTito]

In my opinion Gliscor should not be banned. Compared to DLC1 there are more tools in the teambuilder to address it, and except for certain utility gliscor vs utility gliscor matchups which are not common at all, there's no more checking gliscor with gliscor, which was a terrible dynamic indeed and good riddance.

A few points that come to mind:

• Whatever set it's using, it enables teams that would otherwise likely be overwhelmed by the more offensive teams spamming pokémon with 500+ speed - Gliscor happen to be quite sturdy and more often than not can eat a hit from Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, Iron Boulder and +1 Roaring Moon while directly threatening them with STAB Earthquake or Toxic+Protect
• Can be hit super effectively by a sufficient amount of common attackers in the tier, notably Great Tusk, Dragonite, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Samurott-Hisui, Kyurem and Darkrai, to mention a few
• Has at least two hard counters in Corviknight and Dondozo, with a few more depending on other circumstances such as Unaware Clefable, Iron Defense Zamazenta, Iron Defense Garganacl and Balloon Gholdengo
• Does not immediately win against base typing Kingambit and Raging Bolt despite being a ground-type, as it's defensive nature is reflected in the unboosted Earthquake damage

Gliscor can definitely be annoying and can run a number of sets, the most recent trend being 317 speed tera normal/dark swords dance.

• Counting Kyurem, there's 9 pokémon capable of 2hkoing teraless max speed Gliscor that are also faster than it: Darkrai, Deoxys-S, Iron Treads, Iron Valiant, Kyurem, Meowscarada, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Walking Wake
• Tera normal makes things difficult for special attackers because they must rely on Focus Blast which is sometimes deprecated in the teambuilder due to it's poor accuracy, but fighting-types should have an easier time hitting it now, particularly Zamazenta and Iron Valiant - Both of which can actually run ice/fighting coverage and actually benefit quite universally - All of this also applies to Great Tusk, which is slower than max speed Gliscor but has the natural bulk to eat a +2 tera normal facade should times be dire
• Has a coverage problem; It can't do all of sweeping, removing items, being able to click Earthquake and luring Ogerpon-Wellspring/Kyurem all at the same time
• Without attack investment, at +2 still fails to always OHKO key threats in bulky Gholdengo and bulky Kingambit, which may also be using Air Balloon

One could argue that the issue with the presence of this set is the difficulty and the cost of checking it, as it's often paired with hazard stack builds and will force switches. Offensive teams can overcome this by building momentum and bulkier teams can overcome this by preparing for it somehow. Much like Kingambit, it's much easier to defeat without tera available, but it doesn't hit nearly as hard - just faster and for longer. If the difficulty in dealing with Gliscor does not have to do with just Gliscor itself (but rather, the "gliscor teams"), then there is no reason to believe it deserves to be banned.

One could argue that banning Gliscor would make the tier better by disabling such teams and thus reducing the amount of things to prepare for, but I do not believe that's a good course of action because just spamming offense and anti-offense does not sound better than what we have now, so I will therefore vote Do Not Ban.

 

[Eeveeto]

Just got reqs. Used the hard to pilot Rain style for it. Up until I hit 1700, the run went smooth and I had only 2 loses. The last 50 points were pure hell and my final result ended up being a mediocre 46-11, one of my worst Suspect runs in this generation. I had 3 fishes on the team and a Kyurem too, that made a total of 5 Mons that can threaten Gliscor with either a Water or an Ice attack. So, that must have meant that Gliscor posed no issue to my team, right? It was actually quite problematic with its hazards, Protect, Tera Water, Knock and Toxic. But hey, this will happen to all Rains vs most Mons with Protect, not just Gliscor. Still, the very last battle of a Suspect was vs a full Stall in which Gliscor used Tera Water early and put lots of Spikes and Knock Off. I only won said battle due to some luck, poor plays by the opponent and the fact that Band Tera Water Adaptability Basculegion in Rain makes the sentence "Its not very effective" obsolete.

Unlike many pro-Ban side, I think that Sword Dance Gliscor is a completely fine Mon. Yes, it often outlasts its checks, it will knock some stuff, but at the end of the day, it can be played around. We had that SD set in BW, ORAS and SM and it has always been fine. Yes, in those Gens we also had Hidden Power Ice which could be slapped on anything, but Gliscor also had Roost. If all Gliscor's had SD, just like all Roaring Moons have Knock Off, no matter what other 3 moves are, it would be a fair Mon and this thread wouldn,t be needed at all.

My issue comes with the Spikes Gliscor. It restricts teambuilding a lot, contributes to an already Hazard centric meta, punishes passive playing way too much and makes progress way too easily. Even without Gliscor, we have a lot of Hazard setters, but Gliscor is different, it can,t be worn down by a Status, an opposing Knock Off or by Hazards. Hisuian Samurott will eventually die from Rocky Helmet, damage or a status. Ting-Lu has 442424242 weaknesses, no recovery and is way more passive than Gliscor due to not hitting hard and being unable to use Knock or Toxic. Clodsire is too passive and a liability vs Gliscor itself. Glimmora rarely has time to put more than one hazard, after that it will come up to Gholdengo to protect them, Glimmora won,t be comming back to put more hazards. Skarmory can stick around, but its overall a terrible Mon and abused by any Ghost or Tera Ghost. With Gliscor, the only way to deal with it is by doing direct damage to it, but that isn,t that reliable either, since Mons that can threaten Gliscor will be hit by Knock Off or Toxic in the process, after which Gliscor will just Protect and switch out, to come in a any free turn and repeat the process. If Gholdengo didn,t exist to help Gliscor (and other hazard setters) commit its crimes, both Corviknight and Levitate Galarian Weezing would easily diminish Gliscor's impact and it wouldnt be ban-worthy. Right now, Gliscor, unlike any other hazard setter, will abuse any type of free turn or passive play to make more progress, while being unaffected by similar (Knock, Toxic, Spikes) measures itself.

How to switch-in into a Mon that can threaten with Knock, Toxic, Spikes and a STAB EQ (though it won,t be running all of them at once). There are very few ways: Tera Steel Levitate Mon (see: Latios) stops not only Gliscor, but also some other undesirable elements such as Kyurem, but that means you have to Tera very early into the game. Both Corviknight and Skarmory are immune to Toxic, Spikes and EQ, but the second is terrible and neither actually likes being Knocked way too much. The best answer (and for some, the balancing factor) to Spikes Gliscor ends up being... SD Gliscor, for which Spikes one is set-up fodder. If the best and most consistent answer to a Mon is itself with another set, that doesn,t sound too healthy.

If Gholdengo didn,t exist, Gliscor wouldn,t be a problem. If Gliscor didn,t have either Toxic, Spikes or Knock Off, it wouldn,t be a problem, since there would be more reliable switch-ins. If half of the meta didn,t have Knock Off, Gliscor wouldn,t be a problem, since running Boots would also be a very reliable long-term counterplay. Those are a lot of ifs, but we live in the meta we live, so have to deal with the options present on the table.

In my opinion, preparing for Gliscor's hazards and preparing to 3232324231 dangerous offensive threats (Gholdengo among them) that benefit from them at the same time, makes the meta less healthy and fun that what I think it would be if Gliscor was gone. Gliscor is not the only Mon I would like banned, but its the one that we have an opportunity to deal with right now, therefore I will be voting Ban on Gliscor. Have a nice Eeveening!

 

[Cape Canaveral]

There are a few things I want to hear a more clear answer to on your end.
First, I'm confused why the same logic you used to illustrate how SD Gliscor is okay cannot also illustrate why Spikes Gliscor is okay.

Unlike many pro-Ban side, I think that Sword Dance Gliscor is a completely fine Mon. Yes, it often outlasts its checks, it will knock some stuff, but at the end of the day, it can be played around. We had that SD set in BW, ORAS and SM and it has always been fine. Yes, in those Gens we also had Hidden Power Ice which could be slapped on anything, but Gliscor also had Roost. If all Gliscor's had SD, just like all Roaring Moons have Knock Off, no matter what other 3 moves are, it would be a fair Mon and this thread wouldn,t be needed at all.

You say that SD Gliscor outlasts its checks, it will knock some stuff, but ultimately that it's fine despite it outlasting its checks when played well.

Unlike many pro-Ban side, I think that Sword Dance Gliscor is a completely fine Mon. Yes, it often outlasts its checks, it will knock some stuff, but at the end of the day, it can be played around. We had that SD set in BW, ORAS and SM and it has always been fine. Yes, in those Gens we also had Hidden Power Ice which could be slapped on anything, but Gliscor also had Roost. If all Gliscor's had SD, just like all Roaring Moons have Knock Off, no matter what other 3 moves are, it would be a fair Mon and this thread wouldn,t be needed at all.

My issue comes with the Spikes Gliscor. It restricts teambuilding a lot, contributes to an already Hazard centric meta, punishes passive playing way too much and makes progress way too easily. Even without Gliscor, we have a lot of Hazard setters, but Gliscor is different, it can,t be worn down by a Status, an opposing Knock Off or by Hazards. Hisuian Samurott will eventually die from Rocky Helmet, damage or a status. Ting-Lu has 442424242 weaknesses, no recovery and is way more passive than Gliscor due to not hitting hard and being unable to use Knock or Toxic. Clodsire is too passive and a liability vs Gliscor itself. Glimmora rarely has time to put more than one hazard, after that it will come up to Gholdengo to protect them, Glimmora won,t be comming back to put more hazards. Skarmory can stick around, but its overall a terrible Mon and abused by any Ghost or Tera Ghost. With Gliscor, the only way to deal with it is by doing direct damage to it, but that isn,t that reliable either, since Mons that can threaten Gliscor will be hit by Knock Off or Toxic in the process, after which Gliscor will just Protect and switch out, to come in a any free turn and repeat the process. If Gholdengo didn,t exist to help Gliscor (and other hazard setters) commit its crimes, both Corviknight and Levitate Galarian Weezing would easily diminish Gliscor's impact and it wouldnt be ban-worthy. Right now, Gliscor, unlike any other hazard setter, will abuse any type of free turn or passive play to make more progress, while being unaffected by similar (Knock, Toxic, Spikes) measures itself.

How to switch-in into a Mon that can threaten with Knock, Toxic, Spikes and a STAB EQ (though it won,t be running all of them at once). There are very few ways: Tera Steel Levitate Mon (see: Latios) stops not only Gliscor, but also some other undesirable elements such as Kyurem, but that means you have to Tera very early into the game. Both Corviknight and Skarmory are immune to Toxic, Spikes and EQ, but the second is terrible and neither actually likes being Knocked way too much. The best answer (and for some, the balancing factor) to Spikes Gliscor ends up being... SD Gliscor, for which Spikes one is set-up fodder. If the best and most consistent answer to a Mon is itself with another set, that doesn,t sound too healthy.

But you also say simultaneously that Spikes/Toxic Gliscor is too difficult to deal with because it's hard to switch into because of Knock and Toxic, how it punishes passive play (presumably by staying very healthy) and making progress too easily. Can you differentiate the issues between the two sets a little more? Is it that it's too much utility? Is it not predictable? Is it too flexible? I think we need this kind of context to talk more clearly about how it's a problem.

Furthermore, I find it somewhat inaccurate to argue that Spikes Gliscor is problematic by pointing out how its positives compare to opposing hazard setters, like Hisuian Samurott, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, or Glimm. After all, being better than these setters in some ways don't necessarily make it broken. Ting-Lu and Clodsire can check things that Gliscor could never dream to reliably, and Glimmora and Hisuian Samurott find their place on a lot of more offensive archetypes. If anything, this just shows how the presence of Gliscor is NOT centralizing in hazard setting options specifically, as many alternate options see consistent use. As for how it matches up into removers? Corviknight, Great Tusk, and even less conventional removers like Galarian Weezing are able to play around Gliscor handily enough, and many offensive builds are running Taunt or have the offensive pressure to prevent it from getting too much value.

As for the stuff about Gliscor resisting status, rocks, and knock, yeah. But I'll quote my post from above here.

But if a team doesn't have the ability to...

• wall a boosting threat
• handle item removal
• do a lot of damage
• keep momentum
• hell, even PP stall

Maybe that's a team that should be punished for it. And it's not as if these teams have to do all of these things at once.

The way you deal with Gliscor doesn't have to be the same for each team for it to be considered healthy. Right now most offensive and stall teams can fit options that aren't overstretching themselves to fight Gliscor at all. Again, I don't know if the additional time that balance teams give Gliscor, enabling it to heal, could be considered constricting for them yet; I'm certainly willing to entertain the possibility, but I need some more evidence.

I'm certainly not saying your points are wrong; I just want some clearer pictures.

 

[Clas]

I'm voting ban, not because I view Gliscor as stupidly broken but simply just because the Pokemon sucks to answer in the builder and the meta needs change. What's the point of complaining about the state of the tier just to then vote DNB on every Pokemon because "oh we have x who counters y!". There comes a point where we have to ask why something like this is worth keeping. Gliscor was unhealthy in DLC1 (even if it was for a different set), it got banned, and the meta improved. The metagame is not so different now to how it was in DLC1 minus a few Pokemon that were either good in DLC1 only or got added in or improved in DLC2. So why are we justifying Gliscor staying again if it's just unhealthy for the metagame?

 

[Dhrabb]

I got reqs a couple minutes ago, and I used a variety of team styles in the run. I didn't for a moment think Gliscor was an issue at all. I threw away quite a lot of alts due to losing on tilt or early losses, but I can't think of a single game with any team where I thought Gliscor was an unhealthy presence in the tier.

The main set that pushed Gliscor into a suspect from what it looked like to me was the fast SD set, with of course all the other good sets still playing their part. Ngl, I thought that set was starting to get adapted to even before Kyurem got fake banned, with things like CC Tusk popping up and Zama being the best mon in the tier. People have already mentioned other counterplay like fast encore, taunt, phazing, hazards post tera, Dozo, Corv, Skarm etc. Besides these, even just hitting it hard with stuff like Val, Pult, Crown, Tusk, Bolt, Ghold, Gambit, Hydrapple, Darkrai, Kyurem and more both pre and post tera help to greatly diminish Gliscor's threat level. I just don't think it has the bulk with max speed to withstand repeated strong hits. And more often than not you'll have some strong attackers on your balance, which is what people say Gliscor destroys. It's obviously a strong mu, but a well played and well built balance has many options both in the builder and the battle to take on Gliscor imo. I'd link a couple balances to demonstrate but doing that on mobile is kinda annoying so what I'll tell you instead is to check out popular balances like Hydrapple Tink, Specs Crown + Zap, Kyurem Dozo Corv Ace etc. and see how they don't really lose to Gliscor on mu.

As for the Utility sets, they can be a little unpredictable at times given the sheer options they have (Spikes, Rocks, Toxic, U-Turn, Knock, Taunt, even dumb stuff like Tspikes) but that's kind of it tbh. I don't even think Gliscor is a better spiker than Ting Lu or Samurott, as I think SD is usually too good to pass up on most teams. Even in cases where you use a utility set, it's never really choking out an entire team and often feels like it's getting forced out against something it shouldn't be. It can be demanding to answer in the builder, but I don't think it's so overwhelming that it warrants a ban

With all that being said, I intend to vote Do Not Ban on Gliscor.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

I'm voting ban, not because I view Gliscor as stupidly broken but simply just because the Pokemon sucks to answer in the builder and the meta needs change. What's the point of complaining about the state of the tier just to then vote DNB on every Pokemon because "oh we have x who counters y!". There comes a point where we have to ask why something like this is worth keeping. Gliscor was unhealthy in DLC1 (even if it was for a different set), it got banned, and the meta improved. The metagame is not so different now to how it was in DLC1 minus a few Pokemon that were either good in DLC1 only or got added in or improved in DLC2. So why are we justifying Gliscor staying again if it's just unhealthy for the metagame?

What makes Gliscor unhealthy? It fits on a fair amount of builds and isn't terrible overbearing. Sounds like it’s moreso healthy than unhealthy. Every style has an answer to it just by proxy of the common pokemon of each. Stall has don, corv, skarm, g weezing. More offensive builds pack huge bp bombs, encore users, taunt.

It has very clear and accessible counter play to every set it runs. It generally is a glue and engine for most of the teams it is on but rarely do I feel like its a loss at game start just by the inclusion of it.

SD is strong but it lacks a lot of initial power and also is relatively slow for a sweeper. Tera can muddy things but thats the case with every single A - S tier option.

Being annoying isnt unhealthy. For most pokemon that are on the ban fence I ask myself the question is it more or less okay than Kinggambit (which we seem to have decided is perfectly fine) and Gliscor is farrrr more manageable to me.

 

[Clas]

What makes Gliscor unhealthy? It fits on a fair amount of builds and isn't terrible overbearing. Sounds like it’s moreso healthy than unhealthy. Every style has an answer to it just by proxy of the common pokemon of each. Stall has don, corv, skarm, g weezing. More offensive builds pack huge bp bombs, encore users, taunt.

It has very clear and accessible counter play to every set it runs. It generally is a glue and engine for most of the teams it is on but rarely do I feel like its a loss at game start just by the inclusion of it.

SD is strong but it lacks a lot of initial power and also is relatively slow for a sweeper. Tera can muddy things but thats the case with every single A - S tier option.

Being annoying isnt unhealthy. For most pokemon that are on the ban fence I ask myself the question is it more or less okay than Kinggambit (which we seem to have decided is perfectly fine) and Gliscor is farrrr more manageable to me.

toxic + spikes + knock + pheal is decently overbearing to answer alone esp with ghold but isnt that insane thanks to the tier being more offensive rn. sd beats most offensive teams though alongside making almost all corvless balances near-unplayable (and corv in a ghold meta is ass), so youre commonly playing a game of "is it spikes so i need to play slow or is it sd and i need to play aggressive so i dont die". yes you can predict what it could be but much like kyurem its not clear cut on lead. as for answers, encore is not consistent enough, the bp bombs just dont work fast enough, taunt literally is useless etc. stall is the only archetype that is at all acceptable into gliscor and that really shouldnt be used as a base for whats legal.

its counterplay is really quite poor, none of its "counters" have recovery and so itll just win over time so you have to stack answers. it being a glue shouldnt be a factor when its not necessary as a glue and idrk why it being an engine is relevant (its also just not one)

sd lacking initial power doesnt really matter when every mon is scared of toxic + knock in the first place and it just outspeeds most things anyway while having good bulk and discerningly high atk thanks to facade. it may not instantly hit as hard as mons like darkrai or woger but it doesnt need to when it 1v1s basically the entire tier bar balloon ghold.

its not just annoying, its also unhealthy. having to stack answers that may just lose alongside the strain the builder already faces is not good for the meta, and comparing it to kingambit of all things just exasperates my point of the meta being bad and needing change. if being stronger than kingambit is the level of what is "broken", then there's an issue with the mentality of how people treat suspects.

 

[CaptainSC]

I feel like a lot of the SD gliscor dnb arguments are missing a key component which is the fact that SD gliscor WILL and should just about ALWAYS be paired with spikes.

Hence why its ability to outlive everything is so important. With its ridiculous typing + bulk it switches in knocks off your item (boots probably), then proceeds to rip apart your team. which is why balance teams struggle so much with the max speed jolly set that out speeds the common threats to gliscor (lce tusk). and just when things get softened up gliscor clicks tera and SD and proceeds to run away with the game.

;tldr gliscor w SD knock facade hazards beat just about all bulky/ balance teams.