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Gliscor is NOT 100% Heracross counter
- Thread starter umbarsc
- Start date
What would ya do-oo-oo for a Calcular:
First set vs. Standard 252/252 Gliscor:
Megahorn/Close Combat: 24-28%
Stone Edge: 26-31%
HP Ice: 48.31 - 56.78%
Yeah, cool enough. If and only if you manage to surprise Gliscor with an HP Ice hit on the switchin. Otherwise Gliscor defeats you because it instantly knows you're carrying HP Ice and Life Orb. It will come in later on something else that can't do squat to it, Roost, and then just finish Hera with Aerial Ace.
If you draw in, say, Weezing, good luck to you. Why you would design a set that switches out a useful Tech move like Pursuit for HP Ice I do not know, but it's your business I suppose.
Second set:
Swords Danced's Guts Facade to Gliscor (I used +2 Atk and Choice Band for my calcs): 85-100% (302-355%).
Alright, now this does OHKO Gliscor. It also has the same weaknesses to Sandstorm and entry hazzards, but is still only a OHKO half the time, even with SR. If Sandstorm is up, you might even miss Gliscor entirely. You may also want to know this set beats Weezing.
Also, these sets are only effective against the standard defensive wall Gliscor. They are ineffective against any Gliscor with 270+ Speed. Taunt Gliscors are likely to carry this amount, and therefore no matter how mighty your Heracross will be, it is bait for every pokemon faster than it.
While this set does have few counters (if any), seeing as its standard switchins are usually slower than it, it is easily revenge-killed, and if your opponent outplays you by say, expecting Close Combat and switching in Gengar, they can probably limit your sweeping spree to one pokemon.
First set vs. Standard 252/252 Gliscor:
Megahorn/Close Combat: 24-28%
Stone Edge: 26-31%
HP Ice: 48.31 - 56.78%
Yeah, cool enough. If and only if you manage to surprise Gliscor with an HP Ice hit on the switchin. Otherwise Gliscor defeats you because it instantly knows you're carrying HP Ice and Life Orb. It will come in later on something else that can't do squat to it, Roost, and then just finish Hera with Aerial Ace.
If you draw in, say, Weezing, good luck to you. Why you would design a set that switches out a useful Tech move like Pursuit for HP Ice I do not know, but it's your business I suppose.
Second set:
Swords Danced's Guts Facade to Gliscor (I used +2 Atk and Choice Band for my calcs): 85-100% (302-355%).
Alright, now this does OHKO Gliscor. It also has the same weaknesses to Sandstorm and entry hazzards, but is still only a OHKO half the time, even with SR. If Sandstorm is up, you might even miss Gliscor entirely. You may also want to know this set beats Weezing.
Also, these sets are only effective against the standard defensive wall Gliscor. They are ineffective against any Gliscor with 270+ Speed. Taunt Gliscors are likely to carry this amount, and therefore no matter how mighty your Heracross will be, it is bait for every pokemon faster than it.
While this set does have few counters (if any), seeing as its standard switchins are usually slower than it, it is easily revenge-killed, and if your opponent outplays you by say, expecting Close Combat and switching in Gengar, they can probably limit your sweeping spree to one pokemon.
That makes it only slightly less retarded. And still, not everyone uses Gliscor, and not everyone who does not use Gliscor gets insta-6-0ed when Heracross pops out.
The ability to have "nothing switch in for free" doesn't seem that treasurable to me. Especially since whenever you use Hidden Power Ice, literally anything that isn't 4x weak to it comes in for free pretty much. The mere prescence of Gliscor means you want to use Hidden Power Ice, and then Gyarados or Zapdos or something could come in with a lot of ease.
Sure, Heracross has a way to beat Gliscor. It's just that it makes it worse against everything else.
Not really...
I was simply saying that by the time you have taken out Gliscor, you will be dead anyway, and that's presuming you even beat Gliscor.
That. It doesn't matter if your Heracross can OHKO a Gliscor if it becomes much weaker against everything else. In that case Gliscor's already done its job by making Heracross less of a threat to its team.
Uhh Taylor, the Facade set has a chance of OHKOing Gliscor, especially with Stealth Rock (not an amazing thing to assume you know).
So like, I've been running the second set on a team with a Wish passer, a Stealth Rock Pokemon, a Rapid Spinner and weather changer (I threw it on my Kingdra team), and like, I would Close Combat on the switch every time right on whatever Gliscor decided to come in...and then I would win the next time they switched in.
I ran Jolly Heracross (effectively removing the ability to OHKO Gliscor), buuuuttttt, this thing absolutely rapes. I'm thinking about making a legit team with it with some paralysis support so I can comfortably run Adamant.
Really tooooooo much hate for a seriously effective set. Also, lol, how is the CB Set any better than this? I dunno about you guys, but what happens to me when I switch Heracross in is that my opponent switches around 80% of the time. I'm not a fan of "predicting," and Swords Dancing on this switch turn basically gives me a Choice Banded Heracross with +2 Atk passed to it without the Choice problem lol. Running Jolly also allows me to outspeed so many questionable Pokemon.
I dunno, I'm really appreciating this over CB Cross for sure, since my opponent always switches, and it turns into a prediction (glorified guessing) headache.
So like, I've been running the second set on a team with a Wish passer, a Stealth Rock Pokemon, a Rapid Spinner and weather changer (I threw it on my Kingdra team), and like, I would Close Combat on the switch every time right on whatever Gliscor decided to come in...and then I would win the next time they switched in.
I ran Jolly Heracross (effectively removing the ability to OHKO Gliscor), buuuuttttt, this thing absolutely rapes. I'm thinking about making a legit team with it with some paralysis support so I can comfortably run Adamant.
Really tooooooo much hate for a seriously effective set. Also, lol, how is the CB Set any better than this? I dunno about you guys, but what happens to me when I switch Heracross in is that my opponent switches around 80% of the time. I'm not a fan of "predicting," and Swords Dancing on this switch turn basically gives me a Choice Banded Heracross with +2 Atk passed to it without the Choice problem lol. Running Jolly also allows me to outspeed so many questionable Pokemon.
I dunno, I'm really appreciating this over CB Cross for sure, since my opponent always switches, and it turns into a prediction (glorified guessing) headache.
I've been concentrating on the Hidden Power [Ice] set, Aldaron. Which is why I've made myself look an idiot there. ";[". I'm sure that Hidden Power [Ice] was being discussed between me and a few others.
Give it credit for being able to use Life Orb and stick a Hidden Power [Ice] on a standard Choice Band Heracross?
I definitly appreciate the Facade set further. I will be testing this out some way or another.
Give it credit for being able to use Life Orb and stick a Hidden Power [Ice] on a standard Choice Band Heracross?
I definitly appreciate the Facade set further. I will be testing this out some way or another.
Right, and that Heracross set has nearly the power of standard CB cross, while removing one very effective counter. Your argument would be more legitimate if this were Specs cross with HP Ice/Focus Blast/Bug Buzz/Hyper Beam or something.
And another thing, you're right, teams find ways of switching in to Heracross, and that is by means of prediction. Send in Celebi on a Close
combat, send in Skarmory on a Megahorn, etc. With a Life Orb, though you eliminate another problem, and that is prediction. If they send in Spiritomb on a Close Combat, you can still Megahorn it.
You're implying that you don't need prediction skills with other Heracross sets. Doesn't using Stone Edge mean that Garchomp comes in and gets a free Swords Dance? Doesn't using Close Combat mean that Gengar gets a free switch-in?
13% worse, which isn't a bad tradeoff considering Heracross' limited amount of counters. Think about other potential moves for that moveslot: Pursuit, Sleep Talk, Night Slash. Pursuit is only for Blissey, who isn't OHKO'd, and Psychic-types, who aren't OHKO'd either unless Guts are activated. Neither of these moves helps Heracross from being walled. Sleep Talk is if you are in need of a Sleep absorber, it doesn't help with coverage and could be potentially bad since you can only use it once and you don't even choose what move you use. Night Slash is ONLY for Dusknoir, as the other Ghosts are OHKO'd by Stone Edge and Megahorn.
I'd say that using HP Ice isn't a total waste of a moveslot, and it doesn't make Heracross' other stats so bad that he is unusable. It is a waste if they don't have Gliscor, but no so much of a waste that Heracross becomes worthless.
Um, he's using that for other team members, this comment would be more legitimate if he was only using it for Heracross. This Heracross already functions well without those things; it just functions more well with them.
Lol Mekkah, I didn't say it needed that to be viable, I said that was what I was running.
What about this part:
Also, to ikke: Um, what? Since you brought up the 2HKO scenario and outstalling, we can assume no Aerial Ace for Gliscor. Well...a Facade from 383 Atk 1 Swords Dance Guts boosted Heracross does 84.75% minimum to Gliscor, meaning Heracross Facades and Gliscor Roosts up to 65% health at best. Heracross then kills it guaranteed...that isn't stalling it out. If you are referring to Sand Veil now, first you have have Sand up, which isn't a guarantee, and even if you do, there is a 64% chance of hitting twice in a row with Facade, meaning you beat Gliscor on average, and it cannot outstall. Run some basic calculations please.
A Swords Dance Guts Boosted Close Combat OHKOs Hippowdon and sends Tyranitar back to the Stone Age.
How is that set at all a waste if Gliscor isn't on said team? This Heracross sets beats ALL of its common switches in ONE hit, especially with Stealth Rock down. As for whoever says this is hard to set up, note that it is actually very easy to get anything in, it is forcing the switch for the Swords Dance turn that is the real difficulty, and Heracross forces switches just as commonly as Salamence or Lucario.
What about this part:
That's why I like it a lot more than CBCross.
Also, to ikke: Um, what? Since you brought up the 2HKO scenario and outstalling, we can assume no Aerial Ace for Gliscor. Well...a Facade from 383 Atk 1 Swords Dance Guts boosted Heracross does 84.75% minimum to Gliscor, meaning Heracross Facades and Gliscor Roosts up to 65% health at best. Heracross then kills it guaranteed...that isn't stalling it out. If you are referring to Sand Veil now, first you have have Sand up, which isn't a guarantee, and even if you do, there is a 64% chance of hitting twice in a row with Facade, meaning you beat Gliscor on average, and it cannot outstall. Run some basic calculations please.
A Swords Dance Guts Boosted Close Combat OHKOs Hippowdon and sends Tyranitar back to the Stone Age.
How is that set at all a waste if Gliscor isn't on said team? This Heracross sets beats ALL of its common switches in ONE hit, especially with Stealth Rock down. As for whoever says this is hard to set up, note that it is actually very easy to get anything in, it is forcing the switch for the Swords Dance turn that is the real difficulty, and Heracross forces switches just as commonly as Salamence or Lucario.
It's still a 64% chance of OHKO, factoring in Sand Veil.
I tried out the Facade set for a while and the first thing I noticed was how much more important prediction becomes. Yes, you have to predict to use CBHera well. But the constant damage from the Burn (aside from other entry hazards) means Hera only has a limited amount of time to do its thing. And people don't always switch (at least against me <_<) so using Swords Dance is a dilemma in itself if your opponent decides to sacrifice their current Pokemon and attacks instead of switching.
Summary: Higher risk, higher reward.
Summary: Higher risk, higher reward.
Aerial Ace is a rarity on Gliscor as the common Heracross has no business staying in on Gliscor. Just thought I'd point that out.
Uh, yup, let's all start running Hidden Power Ice to beat Gliscor on our Heracrosses. Not to mention that to do this he needs to not only drop the Choice Band that makes him such a great threat to other walls, but he needs to cut his already just-cutting-it Speed down? If he's running Life Orb, Skarmory can beat him as he's just not 2HKO'd I think. Hippowdon certainly can.
The second set, however, is indeed a viable way to potentially Gliscor with Heracross. Then again, 99% of the time Gliscor is a safe bet, as he's not OHKO'd by that Facade most of the time and has Aerial Ace to beat him plus SDHera is much less common.
The second set, however, is indeed a viable way to potentially Gliscor with Heracross. Then again, 99% of the time Gliscor is a safe bet, as he's not OHKO'd by that Facade most of the time and has Aerial Ace to beat him plus SDHera is much less common.
An interesting thing to note is that Gliscor really cannot cannot Resttalking or SDing Heracrosses without AA, a move that many Gliscors do not use. Facade is the most painful attack, but any attack SD'ed a few times will KO Gliscor while it hits you with resisted EQ's.
The HP Ice set can kill Gliscor, but it obviously also loses other advantages, namely speed and power. It's a possibility, but I doubt many will bother with it.
The HP Ice set can kill Gliscor, but it obviously also loses other advantages, namely speed and power. It's a possibility, but I doubt many will bother with it.
Actually, his Choice Band is mainly the reason Heracross can be walled. Cress + Skarm walls him by alternating between the two, taking Close Combat and Megahorn respectively, meaning that the game turns into a guessing game. With a Life Orb, you can simply switch attacks when they switch in.
The ONLY thing the bit of power from Life Orb to Choice Band helps is to 2HKO Skarmory 100% of the time.
Am I missing something, or does Gliscor definitely outspeed the HP Ice set?????
Why would you say that set beats Gliscor when it can remove the 4x weak by Roosting, which nets it about a 25% health gain for the turn.
I don't know what else y'all are thinking, but I find Mence to be a great Hera counter as well, since Intimidate + resisting both STABs is great. Gyara can also counter relatively well. (both must be EV'ed differently than normal, and worry about Stone Edge), and the Facade set doesn't even have SE on it. With Hera's less than amazing defenses both of those poke's come in with resistances and Intimidate, and they adequately deal with the problem.
Lets also remember that the first set is all of the sudden counterable with (still Gliscor, the HP Ice set is crap...) Skarmory, and possibly Hippo (havent calc'ed for Hippo yet) as well as Dusknoir.
The second set is, at its most basic level, countered by any Ghost with reasonable ability to deal damage and a nice defense. Standard Mismagius can stall it out a bit with Sub, then KO with SBall, Gengar can run Psychic if this set ever actually becomes a common problem, Dusknoir can Fire Punch it, and lets not forget about Forry, although you may need to resort to Exploding :( to actually take out the Hera.
Both of these sets are revenge killed by so many things it isn't even funny, so I don't even want to go there.
Why would you say that set beats Gliscor when it can remove the 4x weak by Roosting, which nets it about a 25% health gain for the turn.
I don't know what else y'all are thinking, but I find Mence to be a great Hera counter as well, since Intimidate + resisting both STABs is great. Gyara can also counter relatively well. (both must be EV'ed differently than normal, and worry about Stone Edge), and the Facade set doesn't even have SE on it. With Hera's less than amazing defenses both of those poke's come in with resistances and Intimidate, and they adequately deal with the problem.
Lets also remember that the first set is all of the sudden counterable with (still Gliscor, the HP Ice set is crap...) Skarmory, and possibly Hippo (havent calc'ed for Hippo yet) as well as Dusknoir.
The second set is, at its most basic level, countered by any Ghost with reasonable ability to deal damage and a nice defense. Standard Mismagius can stall it out a bit with Sub, then KO with SBall, Gengar can run Psychic if this set ever actually becomes a common problem, Dusknoir can Fire Punch it, and lets not forget about Forry, although you may need to resort to Exploding :( to actually take out the Hera.
Both of these sets are revenge killed by so many things it isn't even funny, so I don't even want to go there.
The variant I use (and the one I've heard of prior to this topic) has Night Slash over Megahorn. Dusknoir promptly gets KO'd by a Guts'd Night Slash after a SD boost. And Forretress loses to Close Combat after a SD after Guts is activated.
Both Mismagius and Gengar pose problems though if they come in after a KO. Not to mention they could switch-in on 3 out of 4 moves to scare away Hera. Revenge kills are a big problem in general due to Heracross' lack of Speed. You could say the same about CBCross but that set doesn't take continual Burn damage while it sets up only to be forced out by a revenge kill.
Both Mismagius and Gengar pose problems though if they come in after a KO. Not to mention they could switch-in on 3 out of 4 moves to scare away Hera. Revenge kills are a big problem in general due to Heracross' lack of Speed. You could say the same about CBCross but that set doesn't take continual Burn damage while it sets up only to be forced out by a revenge kill.
This is just an example of how incredibly hyper-offensive DP is. I just think that the concept of a 100% counter in DP is much harder to accept. Sure there are some...Scizor vs Skarmory or Raikou vs Blissey for example but most Pokemon have such incredible movepools and when you pair them up with the wide array of boosting items, it isn't very difficult to customise a Pokemon so that he can "counter his counter."
For example, to quote the analysis:
However, if I taught my Weezing Hidden Power Ground, then "the best counter ever" is suddenley taking massive damage. Another example is Yanmega; Blissey is his primary counter, but if he were to use Reversal he can overcome her. Starmie is the best Infernape counter? But what if I equip a Passho Berry? I could go on and on...the important thing is determining whether beating your counter is worth losing the benefits that the standard set brings to the table. Sure, that HP Ice set can beat Gliscor, but now it's going to get walled by Skarmory and Hippowdon, two Pokemon who are normally terrified of Heracross.
The Facade set looks great though!
For example, to quote the analysis:
However, if I taught my Weezing Hidden Power Ground, then "the best counter ever" is suddenley taking massive damage. Another example is Yanmega; Blissey is his primary counter, but if he were to use Reversal he can overcome her. Starmie is the best Infernape counter? But what if I equip a Passho Berry? I could go on and on...the important thing is determining whether beating your counter is worth losing the benefits that the standard set brings to the table. Sure, that HP Ice set can beat Gliscor, but now it's going to get walled by Skarmory and Hippowdon, two Pokemon who are normally terrified of Heracross.
The Facade set looks great though!
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