Gen 2 General Ubers Generation 2 Discussion

[Theorymon]

Ubers Generation Two​

Welcome to the Generation 2 Ubers discussion thread! Generation 2 may get the most nostalgia out of any other Pokémon Generation, but don't let that fool you: Generation 2's age also makes it one of the most alien metagames out there for newer trainers! It's a REALLY good idea for you to look at the major mechanical changes from Gen 6 below before you start talking!

Special thanks to:

Goddess Briyella for grammar checking these threads!
Fusxfaranto for compiling the Pokémon, Move, Ability, and Item lists!

Pokémon and Moves that exist in this Generation

Since this Generation has less than half of Generation 6's Pokémon and moves, we will just list the Pokémon and Moves you can use this generation. Use your computer's Find function;, if you don't find what you're looking for, that's because it doesn't exist in Generation 2!

Pokémon usable in Gen 2

Abra
Aerodactyl
Aipom
Alakazam
Ampharos
Arbok
Arcanine
Ariados
Articuno
Azumarill
Bayleef
Beedrill
Bellossom
Bellsprout
Blastoise
Blissey
Bulbasaur
Butterfree
Caterpie
Celebi
Chansey
Charizard
Charmander
Charmeleon
Chikorita
Chinchou
Clefable
Clefairy
Cleffa
Cloyster
Corsola
Crobat
Croconaw
Cubone
Cyndaquil
Delibird
Dewgong
Diglett
Ditto
Dodrio
Doduo
Donphan
Dragonair
Dragonite
Dratini
Drowzee
Dugtrio
Dunsparce
Eevee
Ekans
Electabuzz
Electrode
Elekid
Entei
Espeon
Exeggcute
Exeggutor
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Feraligatr
Flaaffy
Flareon
Forretress
Furret
Gastly
Gengar
Geodude
Girafarig
Gligar
Gloom
Golbat
Goldeen
Golduck
Golem
Granbull
Graveler
Grimer
Growlithe
Gyarados
Haunter
Heracross
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Ho-Oh
Hoothoot
Hoppip
Horsea
Houndoom
Houndour
Hypno
Igglybuff
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Jolteon
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kabuto
Kabutops
Kadabra
Kakuna
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Kingler
Koffing
Krabby
Lanturn
Lapras
Larvitar
Ledian
Ledyba
Lickitung
Lugia
Machamp
Machoke
Machop
Magby
Magcargo
Magikarp
Magmar
Magnemite
Magneton
Mankey
Mantine
Mareep
Marill
Marowak
Meganium
Meowth
Metapod
Mew
Mewtwo
Miltank
Misdreavus
Moltres
Mr. Mime
Muk
Murkrow
Natu
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Nidorana Male
Nidoran Female
Nidorina
Nidorino
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Oddish
Omanyte
Omastar
Onix
Paras
Parasect
Persian
Phanpy
Pichu
Pidgeot
Pidgeotto
Pidgey
Pikachu
Piloswine
Pineco
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwag
Poliwhirl
Poliwrath
Ponyta
Porygon
Porygon2
Primeape
Psyduck
Pupitar
Quagsire
Quilava
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raikou
Rapidash
Raticate
Rattata
Remoraid
Rhydon
Rhyhorn
Sandshrew
Sandslash
Scizor
Scyther
Seadra
Seaking
Seel
Sentret
Shellder
Shuckle
Skarmory
Skiploom
Slowbro
Slowking
Slowpoke
Slugma
Smeargle
Smoochum
Sneasel
Snorlax
Snubbull
Spearow
Spinarak
Squirtle
Stantler
Starmie
Staryu
Steelix
Sudowoodo
Suicune
Sunflora
Sunkern
Swinub
Tangela
Tauros
Teddiursa
Tentacool
Tentacruel
Togepi
Togetic
Totodile
Typhlosion
Tyranitar
Tyrogue
Umbreon
Unown
Ursaring
Vaporeon
Venomoth
Venonat
Venusaur
Victreebel
Vileplume
Voltorb
Vulpix
Wartortle
Weedle
Weepinbell
Weezing
Wigglytuff
Wobbuffet
Wooper
Xatu
Yanma
Zapdos
Zubat

Moves usable in Gen 2

Absorb
Acid
Acid Armor
Aeroblast
Agility
Amnesia
Ancient Power
Attract
Aurora Beam
Barrage
Barrier
Baton Pass
Beat Up
Belly Drum
Bide
Bind
Bite
Blizzard
Body Slam
Bone Club
Bonemerang
Bone Rush
Bubble
Bubble Beam
Charm
Clamp
Comet Punch
Confuse Ray
Confusion
Constrict
Conversion
Conversion 2
Cotton Spore
Counter
Crabhammer
Cross Chop
Crunch
Curse
Cut
Defense Curl
Destiny Bond
Detect
Dig
Disable
Dizzy Punch
Double-Edge
Double Kick
Double Slap
Double Team
Dragon Breath
Dragon Rage
Dream Eater
Drill Peck
Dynamic Punch
Earthquake
Egg Bomb
Ember
Encore
Endure
Explosion
Extreme Speed
False Swipe
Feint Attack
Fire Blast
Fire Punch
Fire Spin
Fissure
Flail
Flamethrower
Flame Wheel
Flash
Fly
Focus Energy
Foresight
Frustration
Fury Attack
Fury Cutter
Fury Swipes
Future Sight
Giga Drain
Glare
Growl
Growth
Guillotine
Gust
Harden
Haze
Headbutt
Heal Bell
Hidden Power
High Jump Kick
Horn Attack
Horn Drill
Hydro Pump
Hyper Beam
Hyper Fang
Hypnosis
Ice Beam
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Tail
Jump Kick
Karate Chop
Kinesis
Leech Life
Leech Seed
Leer
Lick
Light Screen
Lock-On
Lovely Kiss
Low Kick
Mach Punch
Magnitude
Mean Look
Meditate
Mega Drain
Megahorn
Mega Kick
Mega Punch
Metal Claw
Metronome
Milk Drink
Mimic
Mind Reader
Minimize
Mirror Coat
Mirror Move
Mist
Moonlight
Morning Sun
Mud-Slap
Nightmare
Night Shade
Octazooka
Outrage
Pain Split
Pay Day
Peck
Perish Song
Petal Dance
Pin Missile
Poison Gas
Poison Powder
Poison Sting
Pound
Powder Snow
Present
Protect
Psybeam
Psychic
Psych Up
Psywave
Pursuit
Quick Attack
Rage
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Razor Leaf
Razor Wind
Recover
Reflect
Rest
Return
Reversal
Roar
Rock Slide
Rock Smash
Rock Throw
Rolling Kick
Rollout
Sacred Fire
Safeguard
Sand Attack
Sandstorm
Scary Face
Scratch
Screech
Seismic Toss
Self-Destruct
Shadow Ball
Sharpen
Sing
Sketch
Skull Bash
Sky Attack
Slam
Slash
Sleep Powder
Sleep Talk
Sludge
Sludge Bomb
Smog
Smokescreen
Snore
Soft-Boiled
Solar Beam
Sonic Boom
Spark
Spider Web
Spike Cannon
Spikes
Spite
Splash
Spore
Steel Wing
Stomp
Strength
String Shot
Struggle
Stun Spore
Submission
Substitute
Sunny Day
Super Fang
Supersonic
Surf
Swagger
Sweet Kiss
Sweet Scent
Swift
Swords Dance
Synthesis
Tackle
Tail Whip
Take Down
Teleport
Thief
Thrash
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Thunder Punch
Thunder Shock
Thunder Wave
Toxic
Transform
Tri Attack
Triple Kick
Twineedle
Twister
Vice Grip
Vine Whip
Vital Throw
Waterfall
Water Gun
Whirlpool
Whirlwind
Wing Attack
Withdraw
Wrap
Zap Cannon

The lack of Abilities

Guess what? Abilities didn't even EXIST in this generation! Sorry, Lugia, you won't be Pressure stalling in your birth generation!

Items

Generation 2 has such a radically different list of items than the later games that instead of just listing the items that didn't exist yet, we will give you a list of items that ARE in GSC. The first list has items that have appeared in later Gens, while the second list has GSC exclusive items with descriptions! One final note: You may notice that most of the Type boosting items are in. These only boost your attacks by 10% this generation, though.

Items usable in GSC

Amulet Coin
Blackbelt
Blackglasses
Bright Powder
Charcoal
Cleanse Tag
Dragon Fang
Everstone
Exp. Share
Focus Band
Hard Stone
King's Rock
Leftovers
Light Ball
Lucky Egg
Lucky Punch
Magnet
Metal Coat
Metal Powder
Miracle Seed
Mystic Water
NevermeltIce
Poison Barb
Quick Claw
Scope Lens
Sharp Beak
Silver Powder
Smoke Ball
Soft Sand
Spell Tag
Stick
Thick Club
Twisted Spoon

Gen 2 Exclusive Items

Berry: Heals 10 HP

Bitter Berry: Heals Confusion

Burnt Berry: Heals Freezing

Gold Berry: Heals 30 HP

Ice Berry: Heals Burn

Mint Berry: Heals Sleep

Miracle Berry: Heals all status

Mystery Berry: Heals 5 PP

PrzCureBerry: Heals Paralysis

PsnCureBerry: Heals Poison

Berserk Gene: Causes Confusion and raises Attack by 2 stages, one use only

Pink Bow: Boosts Normal attacks by 10%.

Polkadot Bow: Boosts Normal attacks by 12.5%

Movepool Differences

Since Generation 2 Pokémon were non transferable to Generation 3, there are many significant movepool differences between Pokémon, especially relevant in cases such as the Lovely Kiss events. Go look them up on Veekun; there are too many differences to list here!

EVs / Stat Experience

EVs are DRAMATICALLY different in this Generation. Instead of allocating 510 EVs between six stats, you're able to simply max out every stat! This significantly alters many aspects of the game! This aspect of Gen 2 is the biggest reason the game has a reputation for having a much slower pace than the later games. Every Pokémon has maximum defensive investment, making things MUCH harder to take down! Also, just remember that each Pokémon's stat is one point less than their neutral max in later Generations, as Natures do NOT exist!

Physical and Special Attacks

Generation 2 does not categorize if a move is physical or special individually. Instead, a move is physical or special depending on what type it is! Here are the types and what attack stat they correspond to!

Physical

Bug
Fighting
Flying
Ghost
Ground
Normal
Poison
Rock
Steel

Special

Dark
Dragon
Electric
Fire
Grass
Ice
Psychic
Water

Typing Changes

Fairy-types didn't exist until Generation 6. Also, Steel-types resist Dark- and Ghost-type moves in Generation 2.

Hazards

Not only does Defog not exist in this Generation 2, Spikes is also the only hazard that exists! Additionally, you can't layer Spikes in Generation 2; only one layer of Spikes can be laid!

Explosion and Selfdestruct

Unlike in Generations 5 and 6, Explosion in this generation halves defense right before it fires off, effectively making it double the base power! This makes it an extremely dangerous and effective move, so when you see stuff like Mew, beware! Also, Explosion and Selfdestruct end the turn, meaning that the opponent doesn't fire off their move if they survive.

Rest and Sleep Talk

Unlike any other generation, in Generation 2, if Sleep Talk chooses Rest, you'll actually go back to sleep and restore all of your health! This mechanic and the fact that everything has maximum defense investment makes Rest + Sleep Talk an extremely popular strategy in Generation 2.

Phazing mechanics

In Generation 2, if both Pokémon use a phazing move, the slower one will actually be the one that phazes! Also, Dragon Tail doesn't exist this generation.

Boosting mechanics

Stats can only go up to 999 and do not have a threshold. If Marowak is holding a Thick Club, or Pikachu is holding a Light Ball, their boosted stats can roll over to single digits, which really sucks!

Leading and the lack of team preview

Team Preview was a mechanic that was introduced in Generation 5, so the first Pokémon in your party will be the lead every time. Also, this means you have no idea what your opponent will be packing, so play cautiously!

Other Changes

Belly Drum: Unlike in other generations, if you are below 50% of your health, Belly Drum will "fail", and increase your Attack by +2. This is pretty handy for Pokémon like Snorlax.

Critical Hits: Unfortunately, Critical Hits do DOUBLE damage this generation, not 1.5x.

Various special moves: Generation 6 nerfed the power of a lot of special moves, such as Dragon Pulse, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Surf, Thunder, etc. These moves are more powerful this generation!

Paralysis: Unlike in Generation 6, paralysis status DOES effect Electric-types.

Sound Moves: These moves no longer ignore Substitutes.

Mean Look: In this generation, Mean Look traps Ghost-types. It can also be Baton Passed.

Leech Seed: Leech Seed only saps at the end of the opposing Pokémon's turn, meaning that only Pokémon that are faster than the opponent will get Leech Seed recovery on the turn of use.

 

[Disaster Area]

The list of usable items is wrong. Also I'm gonna try and pick it up after watching some friends playing it the other day.

my first attempt at a team

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
- Reflect
- Recover
- Thunder
- Submission

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
- Whirlwind
- Rest
- Drill Peck
- Toxic

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Reflect

Celebi @ Leftovers
- Heal Bell
- Recover
- Leech Seed
- Psychic

Mew @ Leftovers
- Reflect
- Fire Blast
- Transform
- Soft-Boiled

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Rest

Tried to build around Heal Bell Celebi+use Toxic Skarmory as a Curse Lugia answer

 

[Mr.378]

Thanks to Piex for bumping this. I've been meaning to talk about this metagame for a while now since I actually have reasonable knowledge on it and I've been working on a good sized write up for it. Now's a good a time to do it as any because Showdown just added GSC Ubers as a challenge option.

 

[Funbot28]

Snorlax is still pretty dominant in this meta aswell. Even though it has more counters and checks in Celebi and Lugia compared to in OU, it still threatens many teams with Drum and Curse sets. Here is my preliminary list for this fun tier:

Top Tier:

Lugia

Mew

Mewtwo

Snorlax

Mid Tier:

Celebi

Forretress

Ho-Oh

Skarmory

Tyranitar

Zapdos

Low Tier:

Blissey

Dragonite

Gengar

Machamp

 

[Disaster Area]

you're overrating spikes [forre is not mid tier], steelix can do what skarm does but better p much, kou should be on there, can't rly comment more. 378 will see and improve.

 

[Fireburn]

Your top-tier is pretty accurate. Mew/M2/Snorlax are instant picks for all teams since they provide actual offense. Mew has SD + Boom, M2 has Boom and 154 SpA with solid coverage options + Curse, Snorlax is Snorlax. Lugia is probably high tier since its a solid Curse user + phazer, though its best attacking move only has 8 PP so actually sweeping with it can be difficult unless you manage to take out Steelix/Zapdos.

Mid tier can be compressed to Celebi/Steelix/Zapdos/Ho-Oh. Forretress can't take on Lugia well due to lack of Flying resist, and Spikes are not too good in a metagame where most viable mons either float, have Recover, or are looking to Explode. Celebi is good at clerical roles with Heal Bell and Leech Seed and can take on Zapdos w/o Drill Peck. Steelix is good against Curse Lugia, Electrics, and Monolax and can contribute to offense with an Explosion of its own, unlike Skarmory. Zapdos is the best Lugia counter and hits hard with 125 SpA Thunders, also does well against Ho-Oh and can take a hit from Mew/M2 as long as its not Explosion. It also provides good defensive utility with Reflect and paralysis, or can use Drill Peck to pressure Celebi. Ho-Oh spreads burns which is useful against Cursers and can take on Shadow Ball/Submission Mews, can be hard to Bell against too since you obviously do not want to switch Celebi into it.

Blissey is kind of bad since it just sits there and does nothing. It can Bell but Lugia/Mew/Snorlax rely on physical attacks and M2 can Selfdestruct or make use of Curse Submission, so its not that good against many of the prominent attackers. I recall Earthworm mentioning Miltank as a fat normal Beller, probably a bit more useful than Blissey due to 298 Speed and Growlstalling Curse users. Tyranitar is better on paper, can hit a lot of stuff with its STAB but has trouble actually getting kills since the Ubers are just so fat. Needs to run CurseRoarRest to do anything meaningful.

I don't see what Gengar does (I guess it walls monolax and brings sleep + boom but is a worse Mewtwo in other roles). Dragonite doesn't have enough offense to kill anything and probably shouldn't be ranked. Machamp is also probably too frail with no recovery or useful resists, plus a hard counter in Lugia means it won't accomplish much either.

Skarmory can be used, but Steelix's ability to wall Electrics and Boom usually makes it better unless you fear EQ Lax. Raikou can fill a Lugia/Zapdos check in one, but can run into trouble against the odd Earthquake Lugia. Skarm is better at walling SD Mews without Fire Blast though. Worth noting Lugia handles Drumlax just fine, it tanks 999 Double Edge and phazes, then gets Recover off with 110 Speed later.

Umbreon can do the whole ML + BP thing which can be devastating if pulled off successfully. Difficult against teams with phazers though.

 

[Disaster Area]

Your top-tier is pretty accurate. Mew/M2/Snorlax are instant picks for all teams since they provide actual offense. Mew has SD + Boom, M2 has Boom and 154 SpA with solid coverage options + Curse, Snorlax is Snorlax. Lugia is probably high tier since its a solid Curse user + phazer, though its best attacking move only has 8 PP so actually sweeping with it can be difficult unless you manage to take out Steelix/Zapdos.

Mid tier can be compressed to Celebi/Steelix/Zapdos/Ho-Oh. Forretress can't take on Lugia well due to lack of Flying resist, and Spikes are not too good in a metagame where most viable mons either float, have Recover, or are looking to Explode. Celebi is good at clerical roles with Heal Bell and Leech Seed and can take on Zapdos w/o Drill Peck. Steelix is good against Curse Lugia, Electrics, and Monolax and can contribute to offense with an Explosion of its own, unlike Skarmory. Zapdos is the best Lugia counter and hits hard with 125 SpA Thunders, also does well against Ho-Oh and can take a hit from Mew/M2 as long as its not Explosion. It also provides good defensive utility with Reflect and paralysis, or can use Drill Peck to pressure Celebi. Ho-Oh spreads burns which is useful against Cursers and can take on Shadow Ball/Submission Mews, can be hard to Bell against too since you obviously do not want to switch Celebi into it.

Blissey is kind of bad since it just sits there and does nothing. It can Bell but Lugia/Mew/Snorlax rely on physical attacks and M2 can Selfdestruct or make use of Curse Submission, so its not that good against many of the prominent attackers. I recall Earthworm mentioning Miltank as a fat normal Beller, probably a bit more useful than Blissey due to 298 Speed and Growlstalling Curse users. Tyranitar is better on paper, can hit a lot of stuff with its STAB but has trouble actually getting kills since the Ubers are just so fat. Needs to run CurseRoarRest to do anything meaningful.

I don't see what Gengar does (I guess it walls monolax and brings sleep + boom but is a worse Mewtwo in other roles). Dragonite doesn't have enough offense to kill anything and probably shouldn't be ranked. Machamp is also probably too frail with no recovery or useful resists, plus a hard counter in Lugia means it won't accomplish much either.

Skarmory can be used, but Steelix's ability to wall Electrics and Boom usually makes it better unless you fear EQ Lax or want to try Spikes. Raikou can fill a Lugia/Zapdos check in one, but can run into trouble against the odd Earthquake Lugia. Skarm is better at walling SD Mews without Fire Blast though. Worth noting Lugia handles Drumlax just fine, it tanks 999 Double Edge and phazes, then gets Recover off with 110 Speed later.

Umbreon can do the whole ML + BP thing which can be devastating if pulled off successfully. Difficult against teams with phazers though.

Curse Lugia is basically curselax on steroids really.. one of the most defining mons of the tier, and a major part of why lax isn't as dominant as it is in OU, moreso than the other ubers. It's way tankier (and lax is already super fat) but has a worse typing (more stuff hitting it SE with Thunders and Shadow Balls). Also Lix can go offensive or defensive [speaking with 378, on my team - amongst its many other flaws - lix>skarm with rock slide>drill peck (and roar>whirlwind) would be an effective cursegia phazer/statuser]. Zapdos is probably still running HP Ice to nail that celebi. Ho-oh's kinda mediocre in comparison with the other ubers but at least there's fewer fire resists, but most of the other ubers and such are well-geared to take it out. Mew is a good point tho @ trouble with Ho-oh. Thing is tho either Mew or Mewtwo is gonna explode on a ho-oh if you've got one usually. Blissey's sorta the same as in OU but more stuff abuses it (mewtwo mew and lugia coming in rather than just lax) but it's still a workable beller, answering zapdos and some ho-oh. Lower tier though. Tank is quite nice. Dragonite's reflect haze set from OU [see m dragon hard stall] could probably work in ubers taking LKlax pretty well, as well as maybe mew, and isn't huge lugia bait at least. Skarm doesn't get spikes. You made a fair few good points :]

 

[Fireburn]

Curse Lugia is basically curselax on steroids really.. one of the most defining mons of the tier, and a major part of why lax isn't as dominant as it is in OU, moreso than the other ubers. It's way tankier (and lax is already super fat) but has a worse typing (more stuff hitting it SE with Thunders and Shadow Balls). Also Lix can go offensive or defensive [speaking with 378, on my team - amongst its many other flaws - lix>skarm with rock slide>drill peck (and roar>whirlwind) would be an effective cursegia phazer/statuser]. Zapdos is probably still running HP Ice to nail that celebi. Ho-oh's kinda mediocre in comparison with the other ubers but at least there's fewer fire resists, but most of the other ubers and such are well-geared to take it out. Mew is a good point tho @ trouble with Ho-oh. Thing is tho either Mew or Mewtwo is gonna explode on a ho-oh if you've got one usually. Blissey's sorta the same as in OU but more stuff abuses it (mewtwo mew and lugia coming in rather than just lax) but it's still a workable beller, answering zapdos and some ho-oh. Lower tier though. Tank is quite nice. Dragonite's reflect haze set from OU [see m dragon hard stall] could probably work in ubers taking LKlax pretty well, as well as maybe mew, and isn't huge lugia bait at least. Skarm doesn't get spikes. You made a fair few good points :]

A key difference between Lugia and Snorlax is that Lugia cannot Selfdestruct. Snorlax is more effective at opening holes with LK and Curse Boom/Drum while Lugia can only really sweep in the late-game. To call Lugia "Lax on roids" is a bit of a misnomer when Snorlax is already a shoo-in on most GSC teams. Explosion is how you get kills in GSC Ubers which is a big reason why Mew/M2/Lax are so valuable.

Zapdos does not need HP Ice in GSC Ubers. It only manages 30-35% to Celebi which it can very easily shrug off with Recover/Leech Seed, and it has no other notable targets. On the other hand, Drill Peck manages 40-47% which is enough to make Celebi think twice about risking the speed tie to get off a Reflect/Recover/Seed etc. It also does more to neutral targets. If you feel compelled to run a Hidden Power, Fire would be the best option since that also hits Steelix for decent damage. I'd sooner consider Reflect or TWave though, good utility moves against the common boom-centric teams.

I agree Ho-Oh is rather mediocre, but forcing a Mew to Explode on it is a very good trade. Considering Mew is the most threatening offensive mon in GSC, I absolutely would trade my Ho-Oh for it in almost any situation. That and spreading burns is all Ho-Oh is really good for though. It's best set is probably Curse/Return/Recover/Sacred Fire, with SF allowing you to easily take out Steelix and Skarmory while getting some damage onto Zapdos and WW Lugia, things which Lugia has some trouble doing.

 

[Mr.378]

That list has a lot right but I disagree with a good amount of it. I had a more in depth list made but here's the general viability rankings in my experience:

S-Rank:

These Pokemon are superior to every other option and are nigh mandatory on any team.

Mew

Mewtwo

Snorlax


A-Rank:


These Pokemon have notable and significant niches and are usable on nearly any team.

Celebi

Forretress

Lugia

Raikou

Steelix

Tyranitar

Zapdos


B-Rank:


These Pokemon have one or two minor things going for them but they have noticeable flaws that hold them back.

Blissey

Cloyster

Gengar

Golem

Ho-Oh

Jolteon

Miltank

Rhydon

Skarmory

Umbreon


C-Rank:


These Pokemon are either bad, untested, or outclassed but they might serve a purpose on a unique team.

Exeggutor

Heracross

Houndoom

Marowak

Misdreavus

Vaporeon

Old explanations:

The top 4 are the way they are because they can do both offense and defense better then anything else in the tier. They have phenomenal stats and expansive move pools that ensure them a spot on virtually any team.

Lugia is so good because its the best phaser and defensive wall in the game. It can act as a check and wall to pretty much any physical attacker and special attacker that doesn't have super effective stab. Its primary set is the curse set so it can boost its offense to good levels but its a bit limited in whether it wants coverage and an attack that has more then 8 pp or phasing power. It still is the best overall defensive mon in the game and has enough offensive muscle to find a lot of use there.

Mew can do nigh anything you want it to but its flagship set is the SD set. Submission/Shadow Ball/Swords Dance/ Softboiled or Explosion bepending on the team is the most common and one of the strongest due to the extremely rare SD Explosion combo but it isn't its only set. It can run two different coverage moves like Rock Slide and Earthquake, Can drop Swords Dance entirely for a 4th attack and become an unpredictable mixed sweeper, or even use a defensive set with screens, status, and maybe transform. There's a Mew set for every team.

Mewtwo is much the same way. My favorite use for it is a mixed explosion lead on offense team because Mewtwo can be customized to beat and 1v1 everything in the game. Usually Thunder for Birds/Fire Blast for steels and Celebi/Ice Beam for Zapdos/Self Destruct for a strong finisher but other permutations exist. It can also use a curse set to give to more exploding power and some defense or even a primitive stalltwo set on defensive teams.

Snorlax is every bit as good here as it is in OU. You still need two checks for it as such though it doesn't have the same diversity in its set here. The reason for that is Lovely Kiss and how strong sleeping is in this tier. Snorlax is the absolute best one in the tier and it has the movepool and stats to abuse it. A Drum set really isn't very good because every uber is really fast and can kill Lax relatively easily after the drum so LK Curse Lax varients are my favorite. It really shines against teams that only use Lugia as a Lax check so you just sleep it, set up, and win. You can then use Selfdestruct for the ultimate finisher or Rest to give yourself longevity. Either way Lax is one of the scariest mons in the tier and must be properly accounted for.

Celebi is a one-dimensional mon of sorts. It Seeds, Bells and never dies. Heal bell is however a very valuable move in the tier and celebi is the most overall durable user of it. It can also really annoys mons that can't do much to it like most Zapdos by seeding in their faces and just not dying.

Ho-Oh is, as said is probably the worst uber because while it has good stats it really has very little to do with them. Its best use is to spam Sacred Fire and spread burns but that only has 8 pp which is a disappointment. It's because of this that leads my main Ho-oh set to be a special restalk variant so it can at least use Sacred Fire more that way.

Zapdos is probably the best mon overall outside of the best four because of how good it is here like in Ou and how kind the meta is towards it. It hard counters Lugia and Ho-oh while having great match ups against both Mews. Explosions are a bit annoying for it which is why I usually carry reflect as my 4th move to defend against them. I also really like HP Water as my hidden Power over Reflect or even Sleep Talk to help deal with Steelix and the rare rocks. It also, as said, can run Drill Peck to hit Celebi better then Hidden Power Ice can. Raikou is theoretically the same as Zapdos but a little more meta dependent because it's weak to Earthquake which is fine actually as most things don't carry it anymore and Raikou is faster then Zapdos and is still the best counter in the game for it.

Steelix is essentially the Skarmory of the tier. It can phase and wall physical attackers with curse while having decent offensive power with Explosion. Its biggest flaw though is that it really doesn't have good attacks. Earthquake is resisted by the mjority of the tier, Iron Tail has bad accuracy, and Rock Slide is unstabbed. Even so, it is the best steel wall in the tier and a great defensive force because it can wall/phase Lugia, Electrics, Snorlax and Mews and Mewtwos that don't run Fire Blast.

Tyranitar is something that seems really good on paper but in practice it isn't that good. On paper it is an amazing mon that has great match ups against all of the ubers and most of the other things used but in practice it doesn't work out because it's too heavily prepared for. It seems like it can beat the two mews but they tend to run submission to deal with it. It can beat the Johto legends rather consistently though unless Lugia uses Earthquake with a decent number of curses which it rarely uses or Ho-Oh gets a Sacred Fire burn on it. It's best set though is a simple Curse phaser like the one Steelix and Rhydon use which hits a great amount of the meta super effectively while having a decent defensive typing. Whether this or Rhydon is the better curser comes down to metagaming ultimately and which one is better prepared for.

Rhydon may look really out of place there but after testing around it really does seem around as good as Steelix is. Rhydon has much better offensive typing and stats which allows it to hit most of the tier really hard with a STAB Rock Slide. It also gets stab Earthquake but I feel liek Hidden Power Bug is better to hit Celebi which often doesn't run coverage for it and to hit Mew and Mewtwo around as hard as Earthqake does. It also runs Curse and Roar to fulfill the same phasing and walling purposes that Steelix has except with STAB Rock Slides and Base 130 attack. Golem is that high because it can do virtually all of this as well and can Explode too. Overall while the two Rock/Grounds may seem out of place this high on the list they really are some of the biggest threats in the tier and must be prepared for.

Blissey does exactly as you would expect: act as a special wall and beller. It's decent if your opponent uses say an electric but it really can't wall too much given a lot of the special attackers can explode.

Miltank, on that note is also a decent alternative beller. It can Growltank Curse Lugia and Lax which are two of the biggest threats in the game as well as stall out Steelixs and Rhydons. It falls short against Mewtwos and Electrics though and is set up bait for mew which is never good.

Gengar is something that on paper is actually quite decent now. It can wall a very good amount of Snorlaxs used and can Sleep, explode and be a decent special attacker. The meta being so unkind to Ground and Psychic moves is also really nice for it. It is relatively weak though and can't take too many neutral hits. However Gengar on second thought actually seems like a decent meta call so to speak.

Jolteon is probably the only passer worth using in the tier. This is because it can beat Lugia on it's own and can pass Growths which turns mons like Zapdos and Mewtwo into actual special threats. However most of the alternative phasers, namely Raikou and mostly Steelix, can beat it and make it a dead slot.

Umbreon can try Mean look passing but that fails to really work because Lugia is everywhere and it really can't do anything to it. It also falls to the various other phasers that roam the tier like Raikou and Steelix. It can run a Charm Toxic set though which is actually pretty decent and can wall a few things.

Forretress, and spiking in general, is not a good strategy because nothing cares about it. One layer of spikes against a metagame of mons that just fly over, heal them off, or blow up anyway is not worth the slot used to get them down because Forretress can do very little otherwise. It can try to wall and beat Mews and Mewtwos but those tend to run Fire Blast so it can't do it consistently. It's best bet is to try and wall Lugia with toxic and even then it really doesn't do much other then sometimes nail stuff with toxic that usually doesn't matter and get down spikes to do a trivial 12.5% per grounded switch in. If Forretress is ranked we may as well rank Cloyster as well which seems better then it because it does mostly the same as Forry but counters Steelix too. It seems weird for entry hazards to actually be bad given this is pokemon but that's how this tier works.

Heracross can act as a situational check to Mew, Mewtwo, and Celebi but the fact that Lugia is on basically every team and is a hard counter really makes it a hard mon to use.

Houndoom can be a decent check and trapper to Psychics Celebi in particlar because Houndoom may as well be the most hard Celebi Counter in existence for what little that means. However it is very frail and cannot take any kind of super effective coverage move from Mew/Mewtwo/Lugia which ruins it. Tyranitar outclasses it as well.

Misdreavus can Perish Trap which might catch someone of guard but every team runs at least one phaser in Lugia which makes it hard pressed to do much. It can Mess around with most Laxes though which is something.

Skarmory is a Steelix that loses to Electric types and can't Explode. It's only real draw over it is it can Drill Peck Celebis and can thief stuff which might be okay
but Steelix is usually better.

Anyway that's every mon in the tier that I think is worth mentioning. Anything else I don't think is worth using like Suicune who's really just a worse Lugia. This is a pretty centralized tier as can be seen but I still enjoy it. It's like a more extreme GSC OU where everything either Stalls hard or Booms hard which is kind of fun. Do note the list may have some things I'm just really high on now though like the rocks.

 

[Funbot28]

That list has a lot right but I disagree with a good amount of it. I had a more in depth list made but here's the general viability rankings in my experience:

S-Rank:
These Pokemon are superior to every other option and are nigh mandatory on any team.

Lugia

Mew

Mewtwo

Snorlax

A-Rank:

These Pokemon have notable and significant niches and are usable on nearly any team.

Celebi

Golem

Ho-Oh

Raikou

Rhydon

Steelix

Tyranitar

Zapdos

B-Rank:

These Pokemon have one or two minor things going for them but they have noticeable flaws that hold them back.

Blissey

Gengar

Jolteon

Miltank

Umbreon

C-Rank:

These Pokemon are either bad, untested, or outclassed but they might serve a purpose on a unique team.

Cloyster

Forretress

Heracross

Houndoom

Misdreavus

Skarmory

For some brief explanations:

The top 4 are the way they are because they can do both offense and defense better then anything else in the tier. They have phenomenal stats and expansive move pools that ensure them a spot on virtually any team.

Lugia is so goos because its the best phaser and defensive wall in the game. It can act as a check and wall to pretty much any physical attacker and special attacker that doesn't have super effective stab. Its primary set is the curse set so it can boost its offense to good levels but its a bit limited in whether it wants coverage and an attack that has more then 8 pp or phasing power. It still is the best overall defensive mon in the game and has enough offensive muscle to find a lot of use there.

Mew can do nigh anything you want it to but its flagship set is the SD set. Submission/Shadow Ball/Swords Dance/ Softboiled or Explosion bepending on the team is the most common and one of the strongest due to the extremely rare SD Explosion combo but it isn't its only set. It can run two different coverage moves like Rock Slide and Earthquake, Can drop Swords Dance entirely for a 4th attack and become an unpredictable mixed sweeper, or even use a defensive set with screens, status, and maybe transform. There's a Mew set for every team.

Mewtwo is much the same way. My favorite use for it is a mixed explosion lead on offense team because Mewtwo can be customized to beat and 1v1 everything in the game. Usually Thunder for Birds/Fire Blast for steels and Celebi/Ice Beam for Zapdos/Self Destruct for a strong finisher but other permutations exist. It can also use a curse set to give to more exploding power and some defense or even a primitive stalltwo set on defensive teams.

Snorlax is every bit as good here as it is in OU. You still need two checks for it as such though it doesn't have the same diversity in its set here. The reason for that is Lovely Kiss and how strong sleeping is in this tier. Snorlax is the absolute best one in the tier and it has the movepool and stats to abuse it. A Drum set really isn't very good because every uber is really fast and can kill Lax relatively easily after the drum so LK Curse Lax varients are my favorite. It really shines against teams that only use Lugia as a Lax check so you just sleep it, set up, and win. You can then use Selfdestruct for the ultimate finisher or Rest to give yourself longevity. Either way Lax is one of the scariest mons in the tier and must be properly accounted for.

Celebi is a one-dimensional mon of sorts. It Seeds, Bells and never dies. Heal bell is however a very valuable move in the tier and celebi is the most overall durable user of it. It can also really annoys mons that can't do much to it like most Zapdos by seeding in their faces and just not dying.

Ho-Oh is, as said is probably the worst uber because while it has good stats it really has very little to do with them. Its best use is to spam Sacred Fire and spread burns but that only has 8 pp which is a disappointment. It's because of this that leads my main Ho-oh set to be a special restalk variant so it can at least use Sacred Fire more that way.

Zapdos is probably the best mon overall outside of the best four because of how good it is here like in Ou and how kind the meta is towards it. It hard counters Lugia and Ho-oh while having great match ups against both Mews. Explosions are a bit annoying for it which is why I usually carry reflect as my 4th move to defend against them. I also really like HP Water as my hidden Power over Reflect or even Sleep Talk to help deal with Steelix and the rare rocks. It also, as said, can run Drill Peck to hit Celebi better then Hidden Power Ice can. Raikou is theoretically the same as Zapdos but a little more meta dependent because it's weak to Earthquake which is fine actually as most things don't carry it anymore and Raikou is faster then Zapdos and is still the best counter in the game for it.

Steelix is essentially the Skarmory of the tier. It can phase and wall physical attackers with curse while having decent offensive power with Explosion. Its biggest flaw though is that it really doesn't have good attacks. Earthquake is resisted by the mjority of the tier, Iron Tail has bad accuracy, and Rock Slide is unstabbed. Even so, it is the best steel wall in the tier and a great defensive force because it can wall/phase Lugia, Electrics, Snorlax and Mews and Mewtwos that don't run Fire Blast.

Tyranitar is something that seems really good on paper but in practice it isn't that good. On paper it is an amazing mon that has great match ups against all of the ubers and most of the other things used but in practice it doesn't work out because it's too heavily prepared for. It seems like it can beat the two mews but they tend to run submission to deal with it. It can beat the Johto legends rather consistently though unless Lugia uses Earthquake with a decent number of curses which it rarely uses or Ho-Oh gets a Sacred Fire burn on it. It's best set though is a simple Curse phaser like the one Steelix and Rhydon use which hits a great amount of the meta super effectively while having a decent defensive typing. Whether this or Rhydon is the better curser comes down to metagaming ultimately and which one is better prepared for.

Rhydon may look really out of place there but after testing around it really does seem around as good as Steelix is. Rhydon has much better offensive typing and stats which allows it to hit most of the tier really hard with a STAB Rock Slide. It also gets stab Earthquake but I feel liek Hidden Power Bug is better to hit Celebi which often doesn't run coverage for it and to hit Mew and Mewtwo around as hard as Earthqake does. It also runs Curse and Roar to fulfill the same phasing and walling purposes that Steelix has except with STAB Rock Slides and Base 130 attack. Golem is that high because it can do virtually all of this as well and can Explode too. Overall while the two Rock/Grounds may seem out of place this high on the list they really are some of the biggest threats in the tier and must be prepared for.

Blissey does exactly as you would expect: act as a special wall and beller. It's decent if your opponent uses say an electric but it really can't wall too much given a lot of the special attackers can explode.

Miltank, on that note is also a decent alternative beller. It can Growltank Curse Lugia and Lax which are two of the biggest threats in the game as well as stall out Steelixs and Rhydons. It falls short against Mewtwos and Electrics though and is set up bait for mew which is never good.

Gengar is something that on paper is actually quite decent now. It can wall a very good amount of Snorlaxs used and can Sleep, explode and be a decent special attacker. The meta being so unkind to Ground and Psychic moves is also really nice for it. It is relatively weak though and can't take too many neutral hits. However Gengar on second thought actually seems like a decent meta call so to speak.

Jolteon is probably the only passer worth using in the tier. This is because it can beat Lugia on it's own and can pass Growths which turns mons like Zapdos and Mewtwo into actual special threats. However most of the alternative phasers, namely Raikou and mostly Steelix, can beat it and make it a dead slot.

Umbreon can try Mean look passing but that fails to really work because Lugia is everywhere and it really can't do anything to it. It also falls to the various other phasers that roam the tier like Raikou and Steelix. It can run a Charm Toxic set though which is actually pretty decent and can wall a few things.

Forretress, and spiking in general, is not a good strategy because nothing cares about it. One layer of spikes against a metagame of mons that just fly over, heal them off, or blow up anyway is not worth the slot used to get them down because Forretress can do very little otherwise. It can try to wall and beat Mews and Mewtwos but those tend to run Fire Blast so it can't do it consistently. It's best bet is to try and wall Lugia with toxic and even then it really doesn't do much other then sometimes nail stuff with toxic that usually doesn't matter and get down spikes to do a trivial 12.5% per grounded switch in. If Forretress is ranked we may as well rank Cloyster as well which seems better then it because it does mostly the same as Forry but counters Steelix too. It seems weird for entry hazards to actually be bad given this is pokemon but that's how this tier works.

Heracross can act as a situational check to Mew, Mewtwo, and Celebi but the fact that Lugia is on basically every team and is a hard counter really makes it a hard mon to use.

Houndoom ca be a decent check and trapper to Psychics Celebi in particlar because Houndoom may as well be the most hard Celebi Counter in existence for what little that means. However it is very frail and cannot take any kind of super effective coverage move from Mew/Mewtwo/Lugia which ruins it. Tyranitar outclasses it as well.

Misdreavus can Perish Trap which might catch someone of guard but every team runs at least one phaser in Lugia which makes it hard pressed to do much. It can Mess around with most Laxes though which is something.

Skarmory is a Steelix that loses to Electric types and can't Explode. It's only real draw over it is it can Drill Peck Celebis and can thief stuff which might be okay
but Steelix is usually better.

Anyway that's every mon in the tier that I think is worth mentioning. Anything else I don't think is worth using like Suicune who's really just a worse Lugia. This is a pretty centralized tier as can be seen but I still enjoy it. It's like a more extreme GSC OU where everything either Stalls hard or Booms hard which is kind of fun. Do note the list may have some things I'm just really high on now though like the rocks.

Ya this lists looks way more accurate than my quickly made one.

 

[Fireburn]

Heracross is hard-countered by Johto birds and Houndoom is too fragile to come in on anything that isn't a Celebi. I don't think I'd give them the time of day.

 

[Mr.378]

I wouldn't either. The whole point of listing them though is too show that while they have an appeal that could lure somebody into using the they have significant flaws that hold them back and they're overly narrow. It's the reason why I said they're bad in the rank discription. I almost listed Suicune and Dragonite too but I decided that they don't even have an appeal that would make people use them outside of 'lol legend/pseudo legend' (Though theoretically Defensive Draggy may actually be pretty good in the tier. I may want to test it and I could add it later. It seems a bit outclassed by Lugia though so not now.)

 

[DoubleOD]

I know nothing about GSC Ubers.

Is Belly Drum Quagsire viable?

 

[Fireburn]

I know nothing about GSC Ubers.

Is Belly Drum Quagsire viable?

Probably not, offensively it's an inferior Snorlax and defensively it's an inferior Steelix.

 

[Mr.378]

I know nothing about GSC Ubers.

Is Belly Drum Quagsire viable?

No. Belly Drum Quagsire is hard pressed to find room to set or or evern sweep in OU. In ubers everything is either faster then it and can revenge it or is so bulky not even a +6 move can affect it and you get phased. Drummers in general don't work in GSC ubers as I kind f said when talking about Lax.

 

[Disaster Area]

http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/break-gsc-ubers.3414/
a little tournament in the format just opened btw, if anyone is curious.

Also I did see vecandlexxplay using a defensive quagsire, but I can see lix/rhy/gol being mostly superior. Also reflect/haze dnite looked interesting to me.

Is nidoking/wak any good?

 

[Disaster Area]

http://mount-silver.proboards.com/thread/158/guys-run-mewtwo-movesets
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/trying-to-build-the-standard-ubers-team.3478389/
http://mount-silver.proboards.com/thread/151/gsc-ubers
useful threads from the past couple of years with some nice discussion on if anyone's interested/

 

[Mr.378]

UPL ended so now's a good a time as any to update my list.

Changes:
Lugia: S to A
Ho-oh, Golem, and Rhydon: A to B
Forretress and Skarmory: C to B
Added Exeggutor, Marowak, and Vaporeon to C

Most of these changes are obvious enough except to Forry to B. I think Forry's still overrated but he still is good enough to make B rank. This should probably be it's own thread but the list is already here so might as well update it here.

 

[Isa]

without having checked the usage stats i think forretress+cloyster combined had a usage not far from 75%. they are essential for any stall team and i dont think that anyone could show a truly offensive team that doesn't have the space for either (its not like theyre useless there outside spikes since they carry defensive weight AND have boom). ranking especially forretress on the same level as blissey is kind of laughable if you ask me.

tyranitar is not A rank and neither is steelix tbh (well maybe lix due to easy snorlax+zap walling but lkiss drum is still scary). yeah they wall some lugias but lugia isn't that big of a deal, zapdos/raikou is overall better while doing that. good teams shouldn't be swept by curselix, ttar is too weak to do a lot of work vs the ubers (lugia outheals tyranitar's attacks unless ttar curses) and theyre scared by a lot of things in the meta.
also re lix: eq hits very little for SE damage and there's many immune and a few resists, iron tail has shit accuracy, rock slide is super weak. i've found zapdos to be better for defensive purposes a lot of the time unless i expect my opponent to bring a ground type (and even then it's debatable if steelix is that good vs those).

i want to see a good miltank team where it's justified using over celebi

 

[zf]

i want to see a good miltank team where it's justified using over celebi

miltank team

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Reflect
- Roar
- Rest

Lugia @ Leftovers
- Aeroblast
- Curse
- Whirlwind
- Recover

Gengar @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Ice Punch
- Dynamic Punch
- Fire Punch

Snorlax @ Leftovers
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Rest

Forretress @ Leftovers
IVs: 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Miltank @ Leftovers
- Toxic
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

it has some weaknesses but it's the best i could do :]

anyways, i'm just gonna echo what Isa said about the spikers moving up. from what i've seen, spikes are a huge part of the metagame and basically mandatory on any team that isn't straight explosion offense. following this train of thought, forretress should be A because it's reliable, gets spin, and has a defensive niche (celebi "counter", sd mew check, curse steelix check w/ hp [fire]). cloyster should be B because it has an easier time forcing in potential boom targets in exchange for no spin and a bit less defensive utility.

as far as ttar and steelix go, i can't really see them dropping to B because they're on a slightly higher level than everything currently in B, bar jolteon and the spikers (which are going to move up regardless). if we started ranking by pure viability instead of alphabetical order, i could see them sitting in high B. However, in the list's current state, i think there's too large a gap between how good these two mons are and the rest of B rank, so they should stay A.

 

[Mr.378]

I suppose I'll concede to moving Forry up to A. I wanted this to be a slower process because of my thoughts on it but I cannot deny that it at least plays a mandatory role on one of the main playstyles in the tier that nothing else can really do. That alone should be enough to move it up. I can also place Cloy in B since right now B is more a catch all rank for less solid mons in the tier that are still viable and Cloy probably fits that.

Tyranitar and Steelix were both summed up by zf pretty well. Note that I did want to move Tyranitar down when I made my changes but I feel like it has added utility over the other rocks while doing virtually the same thing as them so I decided to keep it in A to reflect that. It can move down though because as said it is weaker then it should be, a lot of the mons in the tier that it's meant to check (ie Mew(two)) run coverage for it, and it has bad 4mss. Steelix however deserves A rank as while it may be weak it still is one of the better phasers in the tier and it plays a pretty pivotal role on offense teams for being able to phase + explode while having a spare move to hit what it needs. As of now I definitely see Steelix as an A-Rank mon though I'll probably move TTar down.

Miltank I have no strong thoughts on. It's an alternative beller that can fit on a few specific teams. That should be enough for B-Rank imo. GSC Ubers is centralized enough that only having 4 real rankings is justified. Having a real niche is more then most mons have here.

 

[Jame$ G]

I would probably present an argument to include suicune in the viable ranks, probably more common than gengar and Machamp in my experience.

I'm also interested to hear peoples thoughts on Zapdos vs Raikou in ubers? Personally I have found Zapdos works better for me; primarily due to the fact that isn't crushed from the rarer Ancient Power on Ho-Oh & Lugia like Raikou is from the more common Earthquake. That being said a lot of guys do prefer Raikou and it does have some obvious advantages: Firstly it's a slightly safer bet for Tyranitar who commonly carries stab rock slide and no earthquake. Secondly it outspeeds Mew where as Zapdos ties, that could make the difference between a sweep or Mew detonating on you. Thirdly a Crunch Talk set is hugely threatening in ubers, I have seen it demolish ubers teams several times. And lastly it adresses what I would consider one of the most common weaknesses I see in ubers teams these days; electrics themselves. Most ubers teams just lean on Snorlax and Mewtwos selfdestruct to do something about the opponents electric but it puts a lot of pressure on the highly valueble Snorlax which is almost always carrying lovely kiss rather than sleep talk, and being in a position where you have to blow up is never a good situation for explosion mind games. Now, if you have to switch snorlax in every time you find your Lugia facing a Zapdos your snorlax is going to wear down quick, especially if your opponent has spikes down, and resting most the game isn't a great scenario for Snorlax with swords dance Mews on the prowl. Raikou has a great ability to be a guaranteed safe switch in for Zapdos as well as its itself and imo that makes it valuable to patch what is a very common synergy weakness in ubers teams.

Like I say; i've done a fair bit of testing with both and I would lean towards Zapdos myself, but i'd be interested to hear other peoples angles there.

 

[Jame$ G]

One other thing I would like to throw into the ubers discusson pool is this guy:

Ho-Oh
Sacred fire, ancient power, rest, sleep talk

I've never been the biggest fan of Ho-Oh, but if this thing starts boosting it can be an absolute nightmare. Had one a little while back start boosting on me early, I couldn't kill it with Thunder and burned my t.tar on the switch, ended up taking out 4 of my team and nearly lost me the game, in the end the only thing I could do was not allow it the health to rest and pp it out with snorlax, had he not burned out his sacred fire pp early on it would have ended very differently; those sacred fires do serious damage with 2 a p boosts. Legitimately a very scary sweeper if it gets going.