SPOILERS! General Pokémon Anime Discussion

She's an old friend of Brock, which means he must've have had some idea of contests way long before those being formally introduced in Hoenn, and never mentioned it before...She's an old friend of Harley, who isn't really the most friendly person out here but she somehow is. She defeated Drew a long time ago so badly that it left some emotional scars on him (actually I like this since he shows a more insecure side never seen before, strengthening his character). And the worst thing, she easily curbstomps May, despite her being quite experienced at this point and not being her first Grand Festival. Sheesh, at least Ash gave Tobias a bit of a fight and went out like a boss, May got completely flattened in an instant and never posed any threat to Solidad.
I-I'm sorry? What the actual hell?

When any other series sets up a character like this, they are meant to be beaten. Shockingly revealing all these previously unknown feats and connections to pre-established characters is a tried-and-true trope to hype up the big antagonist, making their defeat all the more satisfying. It's the fuel behind Darth Vader, Freeza, Itachi and countless other legendary villains. It's like pasta with tomato sauce, at best potentially incredible and at worst just kinda mediocre, almost requiring a deliberate bid at narrative sabotage to mess up badly.

And that's before you consider the meta context behind these moments. The Pokemon anime's primary function has been and always will be as an advertisement for the game. It's the 21st century anime equivalent to the G1 TMNT or Transformers shows. That isn't meant to be an innate dig at its quality, that's just the circumstances behind its existence. As an advertisement for Generation 3, May is a direct adaptation of the in-game protagonist, the first of her kind in regards to frontrunning anime characters for the given season. The centerpiece of her arc is contests, a key side feature from Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald.

All of this is easy. All of this is straight-forward. And yet they somehow take a simple premise for a simple show and morph it into this monstrosity. From how you describe it May doesn't even put up a major fight against this Solidad fella, she just keels over and gets eviscerated. They made the conscious decision to make the protagonist of the game this season is modelled after look weak and pathetic, the climb through the representation of a major in-game attraction seem like an exercise in futility. Going back to the Transformers comparison this is like if they made a brand new Autobot toy only for the episode advertising them to feature a curbstomp by a new Decepticon who themselves never gets a toy, with both never being seen again after the fact and as such never giving the Autobot a chance to rise up to the challenge and complete their hero's journey.

Who the fuck writes like this? How do the Pokemon license holders consider this a good representation of their games and brand, a brand steeped in the idea of overcoming the most incredible odds with your favorite creatures? Star Wars The Last Jedi opens with an old, cynical version of Luke Skywalker who has given up on the Jedi ideals after his failure to prevent Kylo Ren's turn to the dark side. That movie ended with Luke waking up from his stupor and triumphantly reclaiming the mantle of the galaxy's hero one last time to face Kylo Ren and bring hope to the sequel trilogy cast. That movie's portrayal of the character was also exceedingly controversial with the fanbase, prompting hundreds, if not thousands of hot takes and essays about it being misguided at best and a total desecration of such an iconic character at worst in spite of that hopeful final note. And yet it could only even begin to faintly dream of being the unequivocal narrative trainwreck this series seemingly pulls with every one of its major cast members. I thought the Kalos league fiasco marked this bizarre show's most profound failure at resolution, but it seems I was mistaken.

Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass? Like I said previously, I don't follow this show nor its history in any depth. Maybe there's something I'm missing. Please let that be the case.
 
I mean usualyl when I see a character like that introduced my thought is not "oh they're going to get owned", it's to establish they're skilled at what they do. SOlidad having so much interplay was a misstep just because of how heavy handed it was, but iirc she was a perfectly nice woman so it's not a case of like Gary who has the inflated ego that you have to overcome.
If I had to guess them putting so many connections with her was probably to try and avoid the issue Ash had where he just gets owned by some rando. Btu they went too overboard, it's all a bit much. The experience here probably is what lead to the rival situation in Sinnoh (though as stated a few posts up lol at Tobias).


Which is just another way of saying it wasn't that big a deal; hell this is the first time in years I'd seen anyone talk about Solidad so it's not like she left a lasting mark and just entered the panthenon of "skilled trainers designed to own the protagonist".
 
Just watched the Gengar short and that was adorable as all hell

A few notes/observations:

This short further cemented Gengar as my second favorite Pokemon ever. It's so cute and mischievous, and I love it's smile. Honestly could become my favorite Pokemon in the future, but we'll see, Dragonite is hard to dethrone.

This short also cemented Ghost types as most likely my favorite Pokemon type. I used to think it was Dragon type but I don't think I like the Dragon type that much, I just like Dragonite, Dracovish, Drampa, and Dragapult. Ghost types though, there's rarely a bad or dumb looking one. Even the "bad" ones are good. Try and name a bad Ghost type, I dare you.

Dreepy = Good

Fine I guess I'll talk about the actual short: I really liked the characters. Even in such a short span of time we got a good feel for what their personalities are like, and in the case of the main Girlgar (I forgot the name already, my memory is ass) we even got character development. The Pokemon also felt a ton like characters and all had loveable and cool personalities.

I wasn't a big fan of the art style at first compared to the short with the cute old man Charizard, but I grew on it and I really like it now.

Overall, really amazing short. I heard this is one of the last ones they're making in this style or type, and if that's true I'm sad cause these are great. Personally I'd love to see one with Chorobi again, maybe he can battle the little girl's Nidoking or something :o

:sm/Gengar:
 
Solidad didn't feel like such a big deal since her skill level didn't really feel as absurd as with Tobias.

Anyone who saw Tobias could see miles ahead what he was suppose to be. Just some guy to knock out Ash from another victory in the Pokemon league.
That was 4 times in a row in terms of "canon" leagues and they gave him even a Pokemon a player can't get through a normal playthrough: Darkrai.
Say what you want about Brandon, but he was build up as a character rivalling Elite 4 and him going solving mysteries about the Pokemon world was justification enough for him to have the likes of the Regies in his team. Even his non-legendary Pokemon were competent.

Tobias is just some random dude who just happened to get these powerful Pokemon. We don't learn anything from him unlike with the likes of Solidad and he doesn't even appear anymore throughout the series.

I feel Mai losing to Dawn was more insulting to be honest simply because she is still a "beginner" in a sense even if the contests presentation on DP were more impressive than in AG.
 
I remember being convinced that Tobias' Darkrai was going to turn out to be a Zoroark to promote gen 5 because I didn't think they'd give a character a mythical... and then it was legit a Darkrai. And then he had a Latios too.

And then gen 7 handed out mythicals like candy. I was half-expecting the guy with Zeraora to somehow drop into Ash's dimension to join the league as Tobias 2.0 :P
 
I watched the Volcarona episode and really enjoyed it. But seeing the two Project Mew members entering the battle against the Pokemon Hunters was kinda badass. Ms Asahi acted a lot more relaxed compared to when we were introduced to her. She smiled most scenes compared to that other episode where she looked serious all the time.
 
One last PokéToon: "I've Become a Gengar!?" Yes, this one has captions ready like the previous couple PokéToons.

0:25: So, as an American, this looks to be what we would consider an elementary school which is Grades 1 through 5 (if big enough they'll also have Kindergarten classes). From what I remember in elementary school, when School was over our last period teacher would guide us outside to either where our parents were waiting or we would walk home on our own. There was no hanging out in the halls/classrooms or the school just announcing classes were over and letting kids pack-up and leave on their own (that doesn't start until Junior High (School)). So is this like how its done in Japan?
0:32: Seven Mysteries with one involving stairs? OH NO IT'S THE BEGINNING OF KINGDOM HEARTS 2 AGAIN! 2 hours before the title screen...
0:32: Actually, wait, school mysteries? That was a side quest in USUM. Let me check... yeah, there was seven of them, and one was about "Stairs to nowhere" involving a Gastly trapping you on the 2nd floor. Is this the Trainer School in Alola? But they have a batch of Pokemon showing up that aren't native to Alola (notably Dreepy later on, but the Ninjask we saw earlier also aren't in the Alola Dex).
0:40: World of Darkness? OH NO THIS IS KINGDOM HEART... *brick'd*
0:55: Well, sure nice for the World of Darkness to let you come back to life as long as you don't stay there too long.
1:00: Father black hair, mother dark brown hair, older sibling maroon hair, Shoko TEAL hair. Now I'm not saying someone is adopted...
1:07: Girl your eyes are scary, I think the ghosts will be the ones running away (which would make sense as crosses are supposed to ward off spirits).
1:41: Well Gengar has selected its next victim.
1:55: Just want to say I'm enjoying the background elements, the little details like the pictures and drawings is a nice touch making it feel like a elementary classroom.

2:14: So, did like no teacher or school staff go around to make sure all the students went home? Also, shouldn't this be the time the janitors are cleaning or possibly some afterschool classes/programs are being held? Heck, where are these kid's parents?
2:43: Gengar's favorite book is Alice in Wonderland. Guess whose its favorite character is? 8D
3:26: HEY! The mystery said that no light touched the top of the stairs, but clearly there is a slimmer of light over the right corner of the step. Mystery is a total dud!
3:33: It's bad enough Gengar licked a little girl but did they have to make it look and sound slimy?
3:40: Quick Shoko, yell out "Hayner, Pence, Olette"! That sometimes fixes glitches in Fake Twilight Town. (Okay, okay, I'm done with the Kingdom Hearts jokes...)
3:47: Dead... which I guess was the point.

4:28: Now, I think they could have worked in a joke/pun here if Shoko had instead turned into a Haunter. Because in Japan, Haunter's name is literally "Ghost". Hence, the mystery about someone turning into a "ghost" isn't about them turning into a spirit but rather into a Haunter... though that joke would only work in Japanese. Also I would not be surprised if they're going to sell Shoko Gengar merch.
4:32: Good point Gengar. Why do people in the Pokemon world not assume it's Ghost-type Pokemon messing around whenever there's a haunting? Granted, spirits of deceased humans & non-Ghost-type Pokemon do exist, but I would think Ghost-types are far more common than those kind of spirits, likely around locations that are haunted.
4:38: Are they not concerned Shoko vanished into thin air?
5:08: Gengar, All Shoko did was run up to them. If you've never seen a human looked that surprised before than you either haven't been trying or been trying too hard...
6:36: Really kid, you're running what you assume to be for your life yet you're still spinning that disc on your finger?
6:48: BTW, LOVE this rendition of the Lavender Town theme, chaotic and energetic, lol!
8:38: Really kid? THAT'S the first think you realize? Not that this entire time you were running from ghosts you should have realized it was Ghost-type Pokemon?
8:46: Is it weird that Dusknoir actually talks with the mouth on its stomach?

11:30: Can't ask them for help?... They're past the gate, they're fine. Heck, the Dusknoir alone could probably pull you all up.
11:51: Really? That's the big moment? Shoko asking for help? I never got the indication that was a problem for Shoko. Being Shoko didn't quite being a Ghost-type, I thought the big moment was her also using her tongue to latch onto a lamppost or something and use the leverage to pull Gengar back up and then both pull the other kids up.
13:17: And then Shoko learns she was dead all along.
13:45: Wait, so she was just standing at the top of the stairs this whole time? Did none of the other kids think it was odd that Shoko was just standing there silently for several seconds/minutes?

OVERALL OPINION: So, the last Poketoon planned (so far), how was it? It was a fun little adventure with Ghost-types (though considering the topic maybe they could have waited till Halloween to release this, I mean we just got the first Evolution episode so don't think anyone would have an issue waiting). It reminded me a bit of the Lavender Town episode of the main Pokemon anime where Ash & Pikachu were temporarily turned to ghosts by a Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar and had a bit of ghostly adventures. Fun to see Ghost-types messing around scaring people, and a school is a good setting for that with the main (human) characters being kids (if not a tad bit cliche, especially with the "school mysteries" which I think is more of a Japanese thing).

However, it was far from perfect. I couldn't quite get a feel for Shoko's character and didn't even know she had a "shyness issue" to be resolved until the end (at least I think that's what they were trying to get across). Yes, she was sitting by herself when all the other kids were talking and the main boy did note it wasn't like to her volunteer to come along when Gengar tricked her too, but never did I get the feeling that maybe she wanted to join them but her shyness was preventing her from doing so (though I guess since she stayed after class for no reason maybe was meant to be a clue to that?). My point is the resolution for her "arc" came out of left field. Heck, as I said above, I thought her arc wasn't that she was shy but was "reserved" and her big moment was actually using her Gengar abilities to help save the day. They clearly showed she had trouble doing simple ghost things but not wanting to be left alone/out of what's going on. Also was it Gengar's intention to help Shoko overcome her shyness? Yeah, I feel the message got muddled for not making some things clear enough that Shoko was shy but didn't want to be left out.

GRADE: B+ :blobthumbsup: (Not going to punish it too harshly for the unclear message, but it ain't an A because of it)

However, I wanna bring up someone who's worse (than Tobias) imo...
EP459_Solidad.png


The moment Solidad enters the anime (...)

Now, I remember Solidad and that she beat May in the Kanto Grand Festival... but other than that I couldn't recall anything else about her. I had to check what Pokemon she used and I think I figured out why, looks like her gimmick was, since she was from Kanto (Pewter City specifically hence knowing Brock) she only used Gen I Pokemon and they were pretty generic Gen I (at least when grouped together as so): Slowbro, Lapras, Pidgeot, and Butterfree.

Which is odd, cause despite her having these closer connections with main characters I remember the Hoenn Grand Festival Winner, Robert, more and he was even more clearly a character just made to win and given less screen time (could be because he had a Milotic and, since they didn't used Wallace during the Hoenn arc, I felt Robert was sort of meant to be a Wallace replacement and found that odd; like, why not just use Wallace who is a Top Coordinator?).

At least Dawn got a better one with Nando (though Dawn also had Zoey who was a bit of a gatekeeping b****).
 
At least Dawn got a better one with Nando (though Dawn also had Zoey who was a bit of a gatekeeping b****).
I welcome any criticism about DP season, but if you talk shit about Zoey, you just made an enemy...

But in all seriousness, Nando was a pretty good rival. Though I remember him taking part in the Pokemon League felt out of nowhere. Maybe I don't recall him mentioning it or shown taking a gym challenge because the DP sagas are TOO LOOOOOOOOOONG. Which kinda makes sense why there was no Battle Frontier arc again or Generation 5 advertisement filler.
Like RocketSurgery mentioned, I expected Tobias has a Zoroark. They obviously rushed.

Maybe they couldn't think of unique characters again that could put up a challenge against Ash or a recurring character from another region.
 
I welcome any criticism about DP season, but if you talk shit about Zoey, you just made an enemy...

But in all seriousness, Nando was a pretty good rival. Though I remember him taking part in the Pokemon League felt out of nowhere. Maybe I don't recall him mentioning it or shown taking a gym challenge because the DP sagas are TOO LOOOOOOOOOONG.

Funny enough me having a problem with Zoey actually has to directly do with Nando being both a Coordinator and League Challenger.

One of Zoey's hiccups (which, to be fair to her, she got over) was she disliked trainers who were both Coordinators and League Challengers and was vocal about it. I think her hang up about it was she took being a Coordinator VERY seriously and that a League Challenger "trying out" a Contest felt like they were saying being a Coordinator was easy (which if true makes me wonder if she was projecting a past frustration). Anyway, first time it showed up was when Ash decided to try out a Pokemon Contest. When Zoey saw Ash was competing she got really mad and chewed Ash out that he has no place competing in a Pokemon Contest. Now, in a way Zoey had a point. This was going to be the only Pokemon Contest Ash participated in, and if Ash was to somehow win that Ribbon is essentially wasted and it could have been the difference between a Coordinator making it into the Grand Festival or not.

However, then she learned Nando was also both a Coordinator & League Challenger. Once again, chewed him out. The thing is, unlike Ash, Nando fully intended on competing in both the Grand Festival and Pokemon League... and he did! It's not like they were being hosted at the same time, the Grand Festival happened first and then likely a week or so later was the Pokemon League. Nando got all five of his Ribbons and got all eight of his Badges. In a way he was sort of more like a player representation that Ash & his companions are. But anyway, that put a really sour taste in my mouth toward Zoey as she had no right to tell Nando he had to pick either one or the other when he showed he could do both and there was really nothing supporting Zoey's argument. Also, I made a mistake in my last post, Zoey won the Sinnoh Grand Festival and not Nando; which works further against Zoey's case even more. Her, a dedicated Coordinator, won the Grand Festival, so why was she complaining? It kind of felt like she was gatekeeping to try and keep down the number of possibly strong competitors. In the end Nando only made top 4 in the Grand Festival (knocked out by Zoey) and Top 64 in the Sinnoh League (knocked out by Ash).
 
The thing about Zoey was a joke.
I didn't know about her being against trainers who do both trainer battles and contest. I recall, which to be fair is my memory from at least a decade old is that she overheard Ash downplaying contests.
 
The thing about Zoey was a joke.
I didn't know about her being against trainers who do both trainer battles and contest. I recall, which to be fair is my memory from at least a decade old is that she overheard Ash downplaying contests.

Okay, found the episode. It just so happens that the Pokemon Contest that Ash decides to enter is the very first Sinnoh Pokemon Contest shown in the anime (and he enters it because Aipom showed interest in it) and also Zoey's debut episode, DP011 "Mounting a Coordinator Assault!". However it's not until the next episode, DP012 "Arrival of a Rival!", does Zoey learn Ash's goal is the Sinnoh League. From Bulbapedia's synopsis:
The computer pairs up the contestants for the second round, with Ash facing off against Zoey in the first battle. Zoey finds out about Ash's intention to compete in the Sinnoh League and her mood suddenly changes. She asks him why he is entering Contests if he can't tell the difference between Contests and Gyms and walks away. Even though Dawn reminds Ash that Contest Battles and Gym battles are two different things, Ash decides to battle by instinct.
So it wasn't that Ash was downplaying Pokemon Contests, it was that he was going to use the same tactics he does when battling normal for his match against Zoey which set her off. Anyway Ash does so and ends up losing, though it was a close match with Ash almost having won if the timer didn't run out. Zoey goes up to Ash & co. to apologize though says she still thinks Coordinating isn't for him, Ash agreeing and Dawn saying it was Aipom that actually wanted to compete. Zoey then suggests if that's the case than Dawn should be the one raising Aipom.

Nando and Zoey first meet in DP049 "Dawn's Early Night!".
Nando meets Zoey for the first time, but when Nando reveals his decision to participate in both Pokémon Contests and Gym battles, it draws criticism from Zoey.
However Zoey's changes her attitude and starts respecting Nando when she sees Nando's performance during the Appeal Round and especially after its revealed Nando goes on to defeat Zoey and win the Hearthome Ribbon.

So yeah, while it actually sounds like she doesn't quite get over her opinion you can either be a Coordinator or League Challenger but not both, she at least comes to her senses after being almost defeated by Ash and defeated by Nando that at least in their case she was way off mark.
 
Funny enough me having a problem with Zoey actually has to directly do with Nando being both a Coordinator and League Challenger.

One of Zoey's hiccups (which, to be fair to her, she got over) was she disliked trainers who were both Coordinators and League Challengers and was vocal about it. I think her hang up about it was she took being a Coordinator VERY seriously and that a League Challenger "trying out" a Contest felt like they were saying being a Coordinator was easy (which if true makes me wonder if she was projecting a past frustration). Anyway, first time it showed up was when Ash decided to try out a Pokemon Contest. When Zoey saw Ash was competing she got really mad and chewed Ash out that he has no place competing in a Pokemon Contest. Now, in a way Zoey had a point. This was going to be the only Pokemon Contest Ash participated in, and if Ash was to somehow win that Ribbon is essentially wasted and it could have been the difference between a Coordinator making it into the Grand Festival or not.

However, then she learned Nando was also both a Coordinator & League Challenger. Once again, chewed him out. The thing is, unlike Ash, Nando fully intended on competing in both the Grand Festival and Pokemon League... and he did! It's not like they were being hosted at the same time, the Grand Festival happened first and then likely a week or so later was the Pokemon League. Nando got all five of his Ribbons and got all eight of his Badges. In a way he was sort of more like a player representation that Ash & his companions are. But anyway, that put a really sour taste in my mouth toward Zoey as she had no right to tell Nando he had to pick either one or the other when he showed he could do both and there was really nothing supporting Zoey's argument. Also, I made a mistake in my last post, Zoey won the Sinnoh Grand Festival and not Nando; which works further against Zoey's case even more. Her, a dedicated Coordinator, won the Grand Festival, so why was she complaining? It kind of felt like she was gatekeeping to try and keep down the number of possibly strong competitors. In the end Nando only made top 4 in the Grand Festival (knocked out by Zoey) and Top 64 in the Sinnoh League (knocked out by Ash).
Okay, found the episode. It just so happens that the Pokemon Contest that Ash decides to enter is the very first Sinnoh Pokemon Contest shown in the anime (and he enters it because Aipom showed interest in it) and also Zoey's debut episode, DP011 "Mounting a Coordinator Assault!". However it's not until the next episode, DP012 "Arrival of a Rival!", does Zoey learn Ash's goal is the Sinnoh League. From Bulbapedia's synopsis:

So it wasn't that Ash was downplaying Pokemon Contests, it was that he was going to use the same tactics he does when battling normal for his match against Zoey which set her off. Anyway Ash does so and ends up losing, though it was a close match with Ash almost having won if the timer didn't run out. Zoey goes up to Ash & co. to apologize though says she still thinks Coordinating isn't for him, Ash agreeing and Dawn saying it was Aipom that actually wanted to compete. Zoey then suggests if that's the case than Dawn should be the one raising Aipom.

Nando and Zoey first meet in DP049 "Dawn's Early Night!".

However Zoey's changes her attitude and starts respecting Nando when she sees Nando's performance during the Appeal Round and especially after its revealed Nando goes on to defeat Zoey and win the Hearthome Ribbon.

So yeah, while it actually sounds like she doesn't quite get over her opinion you can either be a Coordinator or League Challenger but not both, she at least comes to her senses after being almost defeated by Ash and defeated by Nando that at least in their case she was way off mark.

It's sort of explained in one of the Snowpoint City episodes in DP, but if I'm not mistaken part of why Zoey was like that in regards to people who do both Gym Battles and Contests was that in her younger days, she and Candice made a mutual promise to follow their respective goals steadfastly: Zoey wanted to become Top Coordinator, while Candice was set on becoming a strong Trainer, and they were both set on their paths. So Zoey's view sort of stems from that in that she thinks people should have a set endgoal in mind or a specific dream, without stopping to consider that there may be other ways people do things. Like for example while Ash is set on his path to becoming a Champion and Pokemon Master he does partake in Contests because he sees it as valuable experience, and Zoey didn't really consider that beforehand, or that Nando does indeed take both of his goals seriously and sees genuine value in both of them. I think she does end up accepting that afterwards and frankly it's not always easy to really change your own views on things but she definitely understands the approaches of others in that regard, I think.

It's a bit of a tangent here but I think it was worth pointing out.
 
Yeah I remember people not liking Zoey much in some of her earlier DP appearances because she would constantly get annoyed at regular trainers for doing Contests and acted all high and mighty about them. She got mad at both Ash and Nando about it, but thankfully the writers dropped this plot point about her around the time Aipom/Buizel were traded and it never really came up much afterward. After that her character became more interesting, even if the writers started making her unbeatable because then by mid/late DP we never saw her lose again and Dawn never got to beat her even in the Grand Festival.

Still both a lot better than Kenny, who IMO, is one of the most boring and forgettable recurring rivals in the entire series (and by that I mean all 23+ seasons, not just in DP, lol). :D

I feel Mai losing to Dawn was more insulting to be honest simply because she is still a "beginner" in a sense even if the contests presentation on DP were more impressive than in AG.

It was at least justified by Glaceon being her newest evolved pokemon at the time, and because the DP contests are more performance based so she won by stealing points. We also got to see May beat Zoey with her Beautifly (her star Contest pokemon), so we saw May beat a strong rival character before her loss. The AG contests were moreso straight forward battles, as May mimicked Ash's battle style in them because she had no idea what contests were prior. May's whole reason she lost to Solidad so badly is because not only was the latter a truly skilled coordinator, but it showed May using an aggressive battle style wasn't going to always work in contests so she had to find her own style.

Really this is emphasized even moreso if you count Serena's showcases, which more resemble the game Contests too with dances and performances without any battles. The DP contests were already heading in that direction (the main cast dresses up, the appeals became more show-y, etc.) but they kept battles in them to keep them more interesting.
 
Mai had far more experience and her Glaceon did take part in prior contests before as an Eevee. Seeing her beat Zoey honestly added more to the reason why Dawn shouldn't have won.
To be honest, most of the battles Dawn won were undeserved especially the ones against Ursula. Especially the contest were she used Plusle and Minun, she lost by being overpowered.
Makes me realize that Ursula always has one of the better performances and kept losing to Dawn of all people. That is kinda annoying.
 
The battle with Ursula for the 5th ribbon? I remember liking that one a lot (granted its been about a decade since I've seen the episode so I'm going on memory here). The first one she beat Ursula with Pachirisu vs. Gabite wasn't anything special, but I liked the second fight for her last ribbon and the Grand Festival fight.

Ursula in general though should have had Kenny's place as Dawn's secondary main rival, she was far more entertaining but was introduced too late in DP to get much screentime. I mean she only appeared 3 times, and the last was during the Grand Festival.
 
I suppose Zoey gets peeved that some people sign up for contests that aren't running for the Grand Festival, since contests work differently than gym battles. For those, you have to meet with the gym leader at his/her designated city for an official battle, that's it. Coordinators have it tougher, since contests have designated dates and are hold all across many towns of Sinnoh. You also have to compete against many coordinators that also signed up and I theorize that, like many irl contests, there must be a limit for contestants, so id you didn't make it in time, fat chance.

Now imagine if those spots are taken by people that aren't taking it as seriously as the coordinators that dream of getting their 5 ribbons in time for the Grand Festival. Granted, Nando proved Zoey wrong that he was capable in both contests and battles.

Paul, on the other hand...made fun that Ash participated in contests and he said that it made Ash a hypocrite (??????) for calling him out for entering the double battle competition (which, Ash was 100% right for calling Paul out for that, since he had 0 interest in teaming up with anyone). That's a problem I have with Paul, he's so wrong and sometimes cruel during his first appearances yet the narrative just passes it off as "different styles of training", and we never see Paul properly admitting he made mistakes, so I don't appreciate his development like others do, because I don't feel it was very sincere. Last time someone abandoned his Pokemon for being weak (Damian and Charmander), Brock almost punched the shit out of him.

I dunno, my fav anime rivals are Drew and Zoey, then Paul.
 
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I suppose Zoey gets peeved that some people sign up for contests that aren't running for the Grand Festival, since contests work differently than gym battles.

It also goes back to a promise she made with Candice who is a childhood friend of hers. Candice vowed to become the best trainer and Zoey vowed to become the best Coordinator. Candice of course later on went on to become a Gym Leader which probably made Zoey feel she was lagging behind as, at that point, she was still just a coordinator. Going to guess this sharing of vows colored Zoey's perception to dedicating oneself to a goal: you go all-in and don't let any other activity distract you. With this in mind it explains why she didn't like Nando was competing in both battles & contests, she felt he wasn't taking any of them seriously. And in a way, though Zoey relents, she is proven right when Nando only gets to the semi-finals of the Grand Festival and is knocked out early on in the Sinnoh League (sadly Nando was made an early opponent against Ash; wouldn't mind if Ash faced Conway earlier and/or Nando made his way up the ladder in the background. Also I would have rather seen Ash vs Barry, they could have had Nando battle Paul (and of course lose); I didn't really feel we needed to see an Ash vs. Nando battle).
 
Ngl, it's funny that people are still mad about Tobias and his Diabolus Ex Machina Darkrai.

I can't even disagree tho, come on man, at least have him job to Cynthia or something.

But come to think of it... Didn't he actually mess up worse in Unova? Taking an L to a Darkrai and a Latios is kinda understandable, but what about that guy that didn't even have a full team? :pikuh:
 
But come to think of it... Didn't he actually mess up worse in Unova? Taking an L to a Darkrai and a Latios is kinda understandable, but what about that guy that didn't even have a full team? :pikuh:

Cameron makes me so angry because he was literally the biggest asspull the anime ever pulled off. Tobias may have pulled legendaries and mythicals on people (keep in mind these are sub-legendaries, which are much weaker than major ones like Mewtwo or Rayquaza), but he was at least a competent battler and knew what he was doing.

Cameron is not only a big asspull in that he comes in super late and is "hyper-competent" but he's dumber than a brick. Dude literally thought the Junior Cup's end date was the starting date and showed up when everyone was leaving. Dude literally thought he only needed seven badges to enter the League and Ash had to explain to him he needed eight. He tented himself near the League Conference center so he "wouldn't be late" but ended up stalling until the very end of registration. And as for him having a full team, that was also because of his dumbassery. He thought a "Full Battle" consisted of 5v5, when it is in fact 6v6. He did have a 6th Pokemon actually: a Watchog, which he didn't use until Vergil kicked his ass and he actually realized full team is a group of 6. The guy doesn't even remember type match-ups and sent out his Swanna against Pikachu despite Swanna having a double weakness to Electric or sent out his Ferrothorn against a fucking Pignite.

He's so unbelievably stupid it's almost incredible. I can get being forgetful to some degree but being this dumb and Ash losing to a complete and utter dumbass like him was utterly insulting. Granted I know Unova Ash was insultingly dumb at times, but he's certainly no where near as dumb as Cameron who is in a league of his own when it comes to being a complete and utter idiot. And yet he's portrayed as an extremely competent battler despite being stupid to an almost ridiculous degree. He just shows up late and wins his battles despite being a dumbass.
 
Cameron makes me so angry because he was literally the biggest asspull the anime ever pulled off. Tobias may have pulled legendaries and mythicals on people (keep in mind these are sub-legendaries, which are much weaker than major ones like Mewtwo or Rayquaza), but he was at least a competent battler and knew what he was doing.

Cameron is not only a big asspull in that he comes in super late and is "hyper-competent" but he's dumber than a brick. Dude literally thought the Junior Cup's end date was the starting date and showed up when everyone was leaving. Dude literally thought he only needed seven badges to enter the League and Ash had to explain to him he needed eight. He tented himself near the League Conference center so he "wouldn't be late" but ended up stalling until the very end of registration. And as for him having a full team, that was also because of his dumbassery. He thought a "Full Battle" consisted of 5v5, when it is in fact 6v6. He did have a 6th Pokemon actually: a Watchog, which he didn't use until Vergil kicked his ass and he actually realized full team is a group of 6. The guy doesn't even remember type match-ups and sent out his Swanna against Pikachu despite Swanna having a double weakness to Electric or sent out his Ferrothorn against a fucking Pignite.

He's so unbelievably stupid it's almost incredible. I can get being forgetful to some degree but being this dumb and Ash losing to a complete and utter dumbass like him was utterly insulting. Granted I know Unova Ash was insultingly dumb at times, but he's certainly no where near as dumb as Cameron who is in a league of his own when it comes to being a complete and utter idiot. And yet he's portrayed as an extremely competent battler despite being stupid to an almost ridiculous degree. He just shows up late and wins his battles despite being a dumbass.
Didn't Cameron only win cause his Riolu came in and just 1v3'd the rest of Ash's Pokemon? What the hell happened there?

I mean it did evolve mid fight but still

I'm tempted to watch the BW anime just to see how dumb it gets
 
Cameron? Isn't that the dude that brought 5 Pokemon by mistake and still won against Ash, then later lost to a guy who only uses Eeveelution and only used like 3 to beat him and win the league?
Best Wishes was utter embarrassment for Ash and the worst season by far.
- I mean he lost to that wannabe Paul who defeated Ash with a Pokemon he just received (the infamous "level 5" Snivy). And no, I don't buy the Zekrom stole Pikachu's Electric Power because Electric moves would be less useful anyways
- Brought only 1 Pokemon against Elesa
- Got almost destroyed by Roxie who had to put on herself the biggest handycap using only 3 against 6, gave cheers to the opponent and even healed her opponents Pokemon. Not to mention, the immediately battled Ash right after an implied 1v6 sweep. Roxie is a beast in the anime.

I still dislike Tobias more. All other loses feel like they made Ash just stupid for the sake of it. He lost against a Meowth with boots for god's sake and he is still losing with Pikachu against something like a Surskit despite that Pikachu make a tie against Latios.
 
Cameron, yeesh. At least losing against a tamer of legendaries can be an honor but no defense with Cameron. Reminder that he thought that the Unova League was going to be held in Johto. I'd like to think since many already gave hope on this trashfire of a season there was no expectations of Ash winning anything, and if he somehow did, it would have felt unearned (hi Alola League :D)

- Got almost destroyed by Roxie who had to put on herself the biggest handycap using only 3 against 6, gave cheers to the opponent and even healed her opponents Pokemon. Not to mention, the immediately battled Ash right after an implied 1v6 sweep. Roxie is a beast in the anime.

I made my feelings for Best Wishes clear, but this episode has probably one of my favorite moments. While Ash is getting curbstomped by Roxie, she has the whole crowd roaring in her favor. Iris and Cilan had enough of it and near the end of the fight they start cheering for Ash, these two people in the middle of an huge and loud crowd, rooting for the almost defeated Ash. I don't even like those two, but that's just wholesome, Ash gets his shit together and manages to beat Roxie.
 
I wonder if the writers gave up after the fact that the Team Rocket vs Plasma was canceled due to the Nuclear meltdown back then. I wonder if that arc had happened the BW series could have been better? But then again, we’d still have Iris calling Ash a kid, and Ash being an idiot. It’s a shame BW cut that arc, because it sounds totally exciting, two villainous teams having a showdown. I understand why it was cut though, Liepard using Hyper Beam on the building was not a good thing for that sensitive time.

That’s probably why XY went hard Shoen. They needed to win back the audience, so they went into the classic Shoen trope, and made Ash a Mary Sue and Serena his sweetheart.
 
Cameron is the one I'm big mad about.
I was glad that they had a thing where Ash was justreally down on it after the fact, which carried over to when he came home with the trophy.
 
but what about that guy that didn't even have a full team? :pikuh:

To make it a less salt in the wound, since Riolu evolved into Lucario you could consider Riolu being his 5th Pokemon and Lucario being his 6th since in the anime evolution essentially resets any damage the Pokemon had taken during the battle.

I can get being forgetful to some degree but being this dumb and Ash losing to a complete and utter dumbass like him was utterly insulting.

Not to mention Cameron that loses next round to Vergil, aka the more interesting character who uses a team of Eeveelutions who was also introduced just before the League. Like, why bother with Cameron and his stupid gimmick when you could have had Ash just lose to Vergil instead? Could even had the final match be between Pikachu and Eevee, begin the Eevee mascot pushing even earlier.

I'd like to think since many already gave hope on this trashfire of a season there was no expectations of Ash winning anything, and if he somehow did, it would have felt unearned (hi Alola League :D)

Ugh, don't remind of the Alola League.... #HauWasCheated

I wonder if the writers gave up after the fact that the Team Rocket vs Plasma was canceled due to the Nuclear meltdown back then. I wonder if that arc had happened the BW series could have been better? But then again, we’d still have Iris calling Ash a kid, and Ash being an idiot. It’s a shame BW cut that arc, because it sounds totally exciting, two villainous teams having a showdown. I understand why it was cut though, Liepard using Hyper Beam on the building was not a good thing for that sensitive time.

Don't think having the Team Plasma plot they were planning would have done anything (it's as if the writers should have maybe stuck more to what the game's story was instead of trying to make Team Plasma like every other villain team we've had before).

Cameron is the one I'm big mad about.
I was glad that they had a thing where Ash was justreally down on it after the fact, which carried over to when he came home with the trophy.

And the lesson Ash took away from it: Get a Lucario cause they're usually an instant win button. And he did! :blobthumbsup:
 
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