Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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Whitetempest said:
Oricorio is really more of an example of adaptive radiation than ring species. But I guess with Oricorio being the same species the distinction isn't as big as it would if all 4 were separate species entirely. Maybe it'd be most accurate to describe Oricorio as a species in the middle of adaptive radiation that has yet to complete speciation.

But for a ring species, imagine a mountain. Bird A lives North of the mountain and can breed with Bird B that lives on the East. This means they're the same species. Bird B can breed with Bird C that lives on the South of the mountain, meaning they're the same species. Bird C can breed with bird D on the West of the mountain, meaning they're the same species.

But Bird D and Bird A cannot breed with each other. Meaning they are not the same species. Thus there is a ring, where if you examine most parts of it you have the same species, but when you reach the end, they're different. Its kind of like looking at a color gradient between red and white and identifying when its red, when it becomes pink, and when it stops being pink and becomes white.

Something like that would be hard to do in Pokemon I guess, since we define species by ID Number, not breeding ability. I just really like how much biology there's been in Sun/Moon, so I thought it'd be a neat concept to bring up, even if it would be awkward to actually implement.

Perhaps a better way to do it would be if say on Melemele Island we had generic Lapras. Then on Akala we had a Lapras that was still Water/Ice, but its shell was bigger and darker. Then on UlaUla we had a Lapras that was again, still Water/Ice, but its skin color became more brown than blue. Finally on Poni we have a Water/Rock Lapras. Slight variations occurred throughout, but the only mechanical difference occurred at the end of the ring. Of course feel free to replace Lapras with whatever, it probably suits a new Pokemon than an Alolan form anyway.
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Oh, I see. I guess it's possible, all it would involve is messing with the Egg Groups:
  • Normal Lapras is in Monster & Water 1.
  • To get Lapras to a point where it can't breed with the Water/Rock Lapras it can't be either of those Egg Groups.
  • Lapras 2 could be placed in Dragon & Water 1.
  • Lapras 3 could be placed in Mineral & Water 1.
  • Water/Rock Lapras could be placed in Dragon & Mineral
That said I doubt they'd do this with Lapras, but the idea is still possible (though will probably work better as a 3 or 5 step "ring" than a four).
 
Pikachu315111 said:
Oh, I see. I guess it's possible, all it would involve is messing with the Egg Groups:
  • Normal Lapras is in Monster & Water 1.
  • To get Lapras to a point where it can't breed with the Water/Rock Lapras it can't be either of those Egg Groups.
  • Lapras 2 could be placed in Dragon & Water 1.
  • Lapras 3 could be placed in Mineral & Water 1.
  • Water/Rock Lapras could be placed in Dragon & Mineral
That said I doubt they'd do this with Lapras, but the idea is still possible (though will probably work better as a 3 or 5 step "ring" than a four).
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I like this idea actually. And yeah, dunno why I chose Lapras of all things. Not even a favorite Pokemon of mine. Just sort of popped into my head as an example and rolled with it. Really if they did do this concept it'd work best as a completely new species.
 
Whitetempest said:
I like this idea actually. And yeah, dunno why I chose Lapras of all things. Not even a favorite Pokemon of mine. Just sort of popped into my head as an example and rolled with it. Really if they did do this concept it'd work best as a completely new species.
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Lapras is a wandering kind of Pokémon, it'd make sense to see some of them having been astray and completely lost from the rest of the herd, thus having to adapt to a different region.

That said, I'm really liking the way they are doing the biology thing, and it makes sense to have some regular forms to evolve into Alolan ones, simply because we can consider that they evolved in the form that's better able to survive in that environment. Let's take Pikachu as an example. Being a small rodent, it could keep living under the tree shadows, without really having to adapt. But the bigger Raichu obviously have a harder time hiding, since they are bigger, thus the ones that develop darker skin start to outlive the ones that don't.

There was a project somewhere I once saw that adapted Pokémon to make evolution becoming really getting older, so a Charmander was a kid, a Charmeleon, a teen, and a Charizard, the adult, and there were intermediate stages in the project. I know it's obviously not canon, but it could be a sort of explanation of how it'd work. As a Pikachu started to get older, it needs to get out of the nest in order to grow up. Being constantly exposed to Alola's Sun (even on Moon), its skin would become increasingly darker than it would in a more temperate region like all the others.

Obviously, that would only make sense in this thing if Pikachu evolved naturally into A-Raichu. Otherwise, they can just say the Thunder Stones found or brought into Alola react differently with the environment than in all other continents, thus Pikachu evolve differently.
 
What I meant by my post was that it wouldn't make sense for the entire population to adapt to one environment. Seriously if GF was trying to add realistic biology than there would have to be a variation for each microclimate they adapted to( do you really expect me to believe that all the sandshrew were in that single desert and decided to swim all the way to the ice mountain) and maybe some didn't have to adapt.Btw happy first day Whitetempest
 
Whitetempest said:
That's.... really not how Darwinian evolution works. The competitive exclusion principal generally makes closely related species unable to coexist in a niche together. If one has an adaptational advantage it will out compete the other species, eventually leading to extinction. While sympatric speciation can allow for two species to arise from one common ancestor and remain in the same habitat, it requires divvying up natural resources or hours active and its considered significantly less common than allopatric or parapatric speciation. It would be kind of neat for say, both Alolan Butterfree and regular Butterfree to exist if they ended up specializing on different berries, but I don't see it likely.

A ring species showing parapatric speciation would also be fascinating. For example on one island there's regular Lapras, on another there's Water/Fairy Lapras, on the other there's Water/Dragon Lapras, and finally a Water/Rock Lapras. It would be especially great if Water/Ice Lapras and Water/Rock Lapras couldn't breed to really solidify the ring species thing.

Overall though GameFreak seem most interested in using Alola to examine the specific features that an island brings to evolutionary history. Exeggutor is an example of island gigantism for example, and Oricorio being an example of adaptive radiation.
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Well, we are not talking about entirely different species. Sympatric speciation is uncommon, but the same process at lower taxonomic levels is not. There's a famous example which might relate to your Butterfree example - the apple maggot fly. Prior to the introduction of apple trees in North America, it specialized on hawthorns. As a result of a new environment (the apple tree itself), a race of this species now specializes on apple trees. The two are genetically distinct, but they are still part of the same species. It may be a case where sympatric speciation may occur if this process results in isolation for a long enough time. However, my point was not to diverge from the world of Pokemon. All I'm saying is that there are certain circumstances in the real world by which divergence can occur in sympatric populations within the same species. Therefore, it is not unreasonable at all that Alolan and non-Alolan formes may inhabit different habitats and/or niches within Alola. All of this has ignored the idea of migrants, which could easily explain some of the non-Alolan formes being present despite a fitness advantage for native Alolan formes.
 
blasphemy1 said:
Well, we are not talking about entirely different species. Sympatric speciation is uncommon, but the same process at lower taxonomic levels is not. There's a famous example which might relate to your Butterfree example - the apple maggot fly. Prior to the introduction of apple trees in North America, it specialized on hawthorns. As a result of a new environment (the apple tree itself), a race of this species now specializes on apple trees. The two are genetically distinct, but they are still part of the same species. It may be a case where sympatric speciation may occur if this process results in isolation for a long enough time. However, my point was not to diverge from the world of Pokemon. All I'm saying is that there are certain circumstances in the real world by which divergence can occur in sympatric populations within the same species. Therefore, it is not unreasonable at all that Alolan and non-Alolan formes may inhabit different habitats and/or niches within Alola. All of this has ignored the idea of migrants, which could easily explain some of the non-Alolan formes being present despite a fitness advantage for native Alolan formes.
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For example, part of the Dragonite population could develop an aquatic neotenic form 'cause of the abundance of marine resources, without directly competing with regular dragonites. Something alike terrestrial and marine iguanas from Galapagos (even if they're different species, but you get the point). Not saying it'll happen, but it's fairly reasonable for some species. Getting a different form for each island would be neat and realistic, but adding so many formes for a single species could be troublesome, so I'm expecting Oricorio to be a standalone.
 
CtGupSuVIAAu7Qt.jpg:large

who's that black-ish pokemon? between the mom and the kid?
 
I just remembered that, with an unlikely leaked Pokemon confirmed, I decide I wanted to look over the more credible leaks again. For this thought experiment I'm going to treat each leak as if its true. So let's see how this goes:

Building a League: So why would the Alolan region, which has its own equivalent to a league that is part of their tradition, start making a League? I'm going to say it actually has little to do with the player and say maybe the Alola regions official have been trying to get the Pokemon League's approval to make a league for maybe hopes of attracting more trainer tourists (the Island Challenge is only for natives and visiting trainers may have shown interest of wanting to participate but weren't allowed). Maybe after you character becomes "Champion" it just so happens the Pokemon League approves Alola's request and the player is asked to help choose the Gym Leaders from the Trial Captains (since we're from a region which had a League and had completed the Island Challenge).
This could also mean there might be 18 Trial Captains, one for each type so you had no limits (or maybe you will if you have to choose a Trial Captain that's on the island the Gym is on).
As for the Elite Four appearing after you make the League, I'm guessing it's going to be the Kahunas.
This would be a good way to expand the post game, almost adding a second story and giving the player more to do than just battling at the battling Facility (which would go with GFs trying to expand what you can do in Sun & Moon).

Rainbow-Greninja Is A Z-Move: With Eevee's Signature Z-Move breaking what we thought Z-Moves are, I guess the Z-Moves allowing for a temporary transformation to do a super attack isn't that out there. I still question why would a Greninja we own would look like Ash, though for all we know it will change depending on our appearance so we'll have to wait and see what it looks like. This would also give a purpose to Solgaleo's and Lunala's powered-up forms then just flavor text.

You Can Ride Almost Every Pokemon: I'm guessing there will be a lot more PokeRides? Maybe some "Rides" will have alternate Pokemon you can choose between thus expanding more what Pokemon can be ridden. That said I still question this a little as surely size must be a factor of being able to ride a Pokemon.

Furfrou Trims: With Pokemon Refresh letting you groom your Pokemon I guess it would be convenient to just let you change Furfrou's Trim whenever you want. It's not like the different trims do anything anyway.
 
Hero_Inpace said:
Has anyone considered that the long forgotten fan favourite Farfetch'd may be unlikely to get a unique Alolan form, but may get a unique Z-move? Given the insanity of Extreme Evoboost, we may get something similar to replace Farfetch'd's signature stick.

That's all speculation of course, but then that's the fun of a thread like this :)
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I thought we disallowed baseless speculation. Eevee is a fan favourite, Farfetch'd is defiantly not. (I like it because it's shit =/= popular)
 
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Hero_Inpace said:
Has anyone considered that the long forgotten fan favourite Farfetch'd may be unlikely to get a unique Alolan form, but may get a unique Z-move? Given the insanity of Extreme Evoboost, we may get something similar to replace Farfetch'd's signature stick.

That's all speculation of course, but then that's the fun of a thread like this :)
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I would say Farfetch'd has a decent sized fanbase, I'd argue it's one of the rememberable Gen I Pokemon. But what I would say is holding Farfetch'd back from getting a Mega Evo or Z-Crystal is its lore. Farfetch'd is suppose to suck, its based on the Japanese saying which translates to "A duck comes bearing green onions". While originally meaning a surprising and convenient event (from the view of a person looking for a meal), it has also come to mean someone who was foolish and walking into disaster (from the view of the duck).
In Gen I this was shown by trading a Spearow for a Farfetch'd. At first it seemed like a good deal, trading a widely available Pokemon for a one of a kind Pokemon, but you soon realized Farfetch'd has mediocre stats and can't evolve while Spearow would have eventually evolved into Fearow. This was once again done in Gen VI, you traded a Buneary Bunnelby for a Farfetch'd. While at the time convenient as it knows Aerial Ace to use against the nearby Bug-type Gym, after that it loses any use (at least that was the idea, I ended up making it my False Swiper and Flyer and, due to the changes to the Exp. Share, became my 4th highest level Pokemon so I took it with me into the Pokemon League. Don't remember if I used it, but it was part of my first Hall of Fame team). Also on a next route over there are wild Farfetch'd and the Buneary Bunnelby you traded away would have later evolved to a Diggersby which is good enough to be placed in OU tier.
The only way Farfetch'd would get a Z-Move if that Z-Move was a copy of Lunar Dance, Farfetch'd sacrificing itself to bring back one of your fainted Pokemon.
 
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So I was playing Pokemon X again the other day and I just had a NPC in Lumiose drop this one on me:

"If you're like a cheerful sun, everyone will be grateful. If you're like the Pokémon Solrock... Well, somethings are best left unsaid..."

wait what... WHAT things?!

Is there any lore behind Solrock that could explain this or is it truly trying to foretell something? I wouldn't normally read too much into it but this one sentence: '...somethings are best left unsaid...', is totally throwing me some shade. This NPC is even Cafe Soleil's waitress; it is all too fitting to be just a mere coincidence.

I am now 100% sold at the idea of Solrock and Lunatone both getting exclusive Z-moves or something in sun and moon.
 
Or could've just been a funny one-liner. I mean, it's not like Solrock is that great.

I guess it's not out of the question, but all the pokemon that have gotten exclusive z-moves so far have been gen 1.
 
corrin said:
So I was playing Pokemon X again the other day and I just had a NPC in Lumiose drop this one on me:

"If you're like a cheerful sun, everyone will be grateful. If you're like the Pokémon Solrock... Well, somethings are best left unsaid..."

wait what... WHAT things?!

Is there any lore behind Solrock that could explain this or is it truly trying to foretell something? I wouldn't normally read too much into it but this one sentence: '...somethings are best left unsaid...', is totally throwing me some shade. This NPC is even Cafe Soleil's waitress; it is all too fitting to be just a mere coincidence.

I am now 100% sold at the idea of Solrock and Lunatone both getting exclusive Z-moves or something in sun and moon.
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250px-338Solrock.png

*squint eyes closer together* Is there something you want to say to my face, lady?

I'm not quite sure what she means. I guess maybe she's joking how Solrock isn't actually a sun but just a meteorite thus doesn't shine. Also Solrock doesn't look like the happiest Pokemon.
 
SomewhatOddish said:
Or could've just been a funny one-liner. I mean, it's not like Solrock is that great.

I guess it's not out of the question, but all the pokemon that have gotten exclusive z-moves so far have been gen 1.
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Well, that's kind of the point. Out of all Pokemon, WHY Solrock? And we all know XY has been filled with easter eggs so why couldn't this one also be the case? It isn't farfetched to think so given a game's development starts usually YEARS before it gets even close to being announced to the public. Heck, gen 8 is probably already in the works as we speak and theorize about Sun and Moon. Besides, if it truly is just a funny one-liner, why leave it up the air like that? That's where I'm getting at.

Maybe it's not even about Solrock specifically, but I'm 85% sure that NPC is at least foreshadowing pokemon sun and it totally went under everybody's radar, which I find kind of amusing honestly.

Dev 1 : Yo, you sure we should leave this here?
Dev 2 : ayy, they'll never figure out beforehand anyways haha

Edit:
@Above they don't? for real? wow
 
Pikachu315111 said:
I would say Farfetch'd has a decent sized fanbase, I'd argue it's one of the rememberable Gen I Pokemon. But what I would say is holding Farfetch'd back from getting a Mega Evo or Z-Crystal is its lore. Farfetch'd is suppose to suck, its based on the Japanese saying which translates to "A duck comes bearing green onions". While originally meaning a surprising and convenient event (from the view of a person looking for a meal), it has also come to mean someone who was foolish and walking into disaster (from the view of the duck).
In Gen I this was shown by trading a Spearow for a Farfetch'd. At first it seemed like a good deal, trading a widely available Pokemon for a one of a kind Pokemon, but you soon realized Farfetch'd has mediocre stats and can't evolve while Spearow would have eventually evolved into Fearow. This was once again done in Gen VI, you traded a Buneary Bunnelby for a Farfetch'd. While at the time convenient as it knows Aerial Ace to use against the nearby Bug-type Gym, after that it loses any use (at least that was the idea, I ended up making it my False Swiper and Flyer and, due to the changes to the Exp. Share, became my 4th highest level Pokemon so I took it with me into the Pokemon League. Don't remember if I used it, but it was part of my first Hall of Fame team). Also on a next route over there are wild Farfetch'd and the Buneary Bunnelby you traded away would have later evolved to a Diggersby which is good enough to be placed in OU tier.
The only way Farfetch'd would get a Z-Move if that Z-Move was a copy of Lunar Dance, Farfetch'd sacrificing itself to bring back one of your fainted Pokemon.
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Farfetch'd ranked 235 in the General Elections in Japan (anyone remember?)
So it's indeed a decent sized fanbase.
 
How to use Passimian 101:

1. Go into Doubles.
2. Shedinja as your main partner, Passimian as your second partner.
3. Have Shedinja hold a Life Orb and use Shadow Sneak.
4. Have Passimian use either Protect to avoid damage or a stat boosting move for setup.
5. Passimian will now have Wonder Guard and either no damage or a good stat boost.
6. Send out either a bulky Pokemon (M-Venusaur, Chansey) or a good Pokemon with Intimidate (M-Manectric, Landorus) as your other Pokemon.

Optional: go into triples with Magearna as your third partner
 
Additionally, Shedinja can hold a Sticky Ball and use Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Confuse Ray/Swagger, Screech, String Shot, Heal Block, Telekinesis, Spite, Sunny Day, Sand Attack, or Sandstorm (damages Passimian as well). With Life Orb, it can still use Shadow Claw, X-Scissor, Struggle Bug (lowers SpA of opponents), Secret Power (30% Paralysis), Mud Slap (-1 accuracy), Phantom Force/Dig (to disappear and never ever reappear), and Giga Impact. All of these options are useful niche moves against Dazzling Pokemon or normal types (except for Shadow Claw).
 
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U77654 said:
How to use Passimian 101:

1. Go into Doubles.
2. Shedinja as your main partner, Passimian as your second partner.
3. Have Shedinja hold a Life Orb and use Shadow Sneak.
4. Have Passimian use either Protect to avoid damage or a stat boosting move for setup.
5. Passimian will now have Wonder Guard and either no damage or a good stat boost.
6. Send out either a bulky Pokemon (M-Venusaur, Chansey) or a good Pokemon with Intimidate (M-Manectric, Landorus) as your other Pokemon.

Optional: go into triples with Magearna as your third partner
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Shedinja received damage from Life Orb
Shedinja fainted!
*Receiver activates*
Passimian was unable to receive Wonder Guard!

I imagine the only reason Trace is allowed to copy Wonder Guard is because their opponent would have to be a Shedinja first.

Other Abilities likely not able to be received: Multitype, Illusion, Flower Gift, Imposter, Stance Change, Disguise, Forecast, Parental Bond, Power Construct, Schooling, Shield's Down, & Zen Mode.
 
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