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A huge chunk of the meta gone within a few days thanks to the rises and bans. Will definitely spice up the metagame but for now, there's a lot of breathing room in the builder. T-tar seems to be a pretty potent piece of the metagame. Funnily enough, TTar checks a lot of the stuff I was planning to experiment with on the ladder. Having a good blanket check to most ghosts and psychics is something this tier needs a lot. Expect both T-Tars to be common. Excadrill might end up being more common on offence with Iron Treads being the bulkier alternative. But both are excellent hazard removers in a tier that just lost Tornadus Therian. Also, two good ground types in a tier where we had like 3 options. Speaking of ground types, getting gliscor is absolutely incredible for this tier. Can do it all really. Ditto might have a legitimate niche checking all the ludicrous stuff we have going around here.
Also, good job getting rid of (arguably) the 2 most broken mons in RU. 2, down, 18 more to go. RU Builder looks a lot like UU builder since we share a significant portion of broken threats. Ofc there are nuances between the two but it's funny how of the 11 pokemon on the watchlist, 6 are in RU (, , , , , ). All 6 are just as bonkers there.
What the hell is up with this tier? I built a Natdex RU Team, discovered there was no ladder for it, so took the team into UU instead. There I faced not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE different teams featuring Swellow.
Swellow.
SWELLOW!?!?
RU has Hydreigon, Garganacl, Rillaboom, Mega Lati@s, Blacephelon, Blaziken, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Zeraora because they didn't get enough usage, and you out here using Swellow?
What the hell is up with this tier? I built a Natdex RU Team, discovered there was no ladder for it, so took the team into UU instead. There I faced not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE different teams featuring Swellow.
Swellow.
SWELLOW!?!?
RU has Hydreigon, Garganacl, Rillaboom, Mega Lati@s, Blacephelon, Blaziken, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Zeraora because they didn't get enough usage, and you out here using Swellow?
Natdex has a very small pool of players, and a large chunk don't play the tier competitively. A lot of Natdex users only participate to use axed mons from previous gens.
Hiked myself up to #5 on the ladder using entirely Natdex RU mons. Could try get #1, but there's only so much joy to be garnered from waiting 5 minutes for a game, before getting 6 SR from beating another Swellow player. But I haven't returned here to bask in my accomplishment, since beating Swellow players isn't much of an accomplishment. No, instead I'm here with a much more fundamental question:
What is the point of Natdex UU?
The tiering system of Smogon is rather brilliant. It allows you to take any Pokemon you like and, with very few exceptions, find a tier where the power level is at such a point where they can thrive.
Natdex UU is not this. It's not Pokemon outclassed in OU. Cinderace, Clefable, Excadrill, Gliscor, Kartana, Manaphy, Glowking, Ting-Lu, Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele are not outclassed in OU. Neither are a bunch of the RU mons, like Breloom, Dondozo, Garganacl, Iron Hands, Kyurem, Mew, Mega Sableye or Serperior. It's just the national pokedex has gotten so absurdly large that the gradual drop of power level from the best mons to the worst is significantly more gradual. Only some of this can be swatted away with ladder being ladder. Yeah there's Swellow, but for the most part, every mon in OU and UU belongs in that tier.
You can easily take a full UU team into OU and not notice a power level difference. I took my RU team into UU and didn't feel outclassed in the slightest, even when facing "real", non-Swellow, UU teams. I could likely take my Quaquaval + Garganacl + Mew + Mega Latias team into OU and not feel any real power level difference at all. I could not say this about Paldea dex. I can't take my Revavroom + Bellibolt + Naclstack team into OU without feeling hopelessly outgunned. I mock the Swellow players, but at the same time I get it. Tera normal boomburst Swellow is cool! It's not even that bad. But when the power level in the lower tiers looks almost identical to the power level in OU, poor Swellow never stood a chance.
I'm not exactly the most experienced Natdex player out there, but right now it feels like there's a significant issue. If there is no real power level difference between Natdex OU and UU, then why does UU exist? If you can just take that entire team into OU with no issues, why even have a Natdex UU tier at all? Lower tiers exist to give less powered or outclassed mons a place to shine, but right now that simply isn't the case.
I don't know what the answer to this is, but lowering the percentage cutoff for tiering in Natdex would be a start. I know it would create more volatility between the tiers, but there's only 3 tiers anyway, and one of them doesn't even have a ladder. I don't just mean dropping the cutoff point back to 3.4% or whatever it used to be. I mean drop it waaaaaay lower, as in closer to 1%. I'm sure this will have a bunch of very silly consequences and be way more prone to ladder manipulation. However with how it currently is, I don't see why Natdex UU exists.
Hiked myself up to #5 on the ladder using entirely Natdex RU mons. Could try get #1, but there's only so much joy to be garnered from waiting 5 minutes for a game, before getting 6 SR from beating another Swellow player. But I haven't returned here to bask in my accomplishment, since beating Swellow players isn't much of an accomplishment. No, instead I'm here with a much more fundamental question:
What is the point of Natdex UU?
The tiering system of Smogon is rather brilliant. It allows you to take any Pokemon you like and, with very few exceptions, find a tier where the power level is at such a point where they can thrive.
Natdex UU is not this. It's not Pokemon outclassed in OU. Cinderace, Clefable, Excadrill, Gliscor, Kartana, Manaphy, Glowking, Ting-Lu, Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele are not outclassed in OU. Neither are a bunch of the RU mons, like Breloom, Dondozo, Garganacl, Iron Hands, Kyurem, Mew, Mega Sableye or Serperior. It's just the national pokedex has gotten so absurdly large that the gradual drop of power level from the best mons to the worst is significantly more gradual. Only some of this can be swatted away with ladder being ladder. Yeah there's Swellow, but for the most part, every mon in OU and UU belongs in that tier.
You can easily take a full UU team into OU and not notice a power level difference. I took my RU team into UU and didn't feel outclassed in the slightest, even when facing "real", non-Swellow, UU teams. I could likely take my Quaquaval + Garganacl + Mew + Mega Latias team into OU and not feel any real power level difference at all. I could not say this about Paldea dex. I can't take my Revavroom + Bellibolt + Naclstack team into OU without feeling hopelessly outgunned. I mock the Swellow players, but at the same time I get it. Tera normal boomburst Swellow is cool! It's not even that bad. But when the power level in the lower tiers looks almost identical to the power level in OU, poor Swellow never stood a chance.
I'm not exactly the most experienced Natdex player out there, but right now it feels like there's a significant issue. If there is no real power level difference between Natdex OU and UU, then why does UU exist? If you can just take that entire team into OU with no issues, why even have a Natdex UU tier at all? Lower tiers exist to give less powered or outclassed mons a place to shine, but right now that simply isn't the case.
I don't know what the answer to this is, but lowering the percentage cutoff for tiering in Natdex would be a start. I know it would create more volatility between the tiers, but there's only 3 tiers anyway, and one of them doesn't even have a ladder. I don't just mean dropping the cutoff point back to 3.4% or whatever it used to be. I mean drop it waaaaaay lower, as in closer to 1%. I'm sure this will have a bunch of very silly consequences and be way more prone to ladder manipulation. However with how it currently is, I don't see why Natdex UU exists.
There are many reasons as to why the power level in all of the 3 tiers are similar.
When Gen 9 National Dex was born back in late November, everyone was of course on their way to not only use the pokemon of the new generation but also the wave of unbans with pokemon that people have never seen touch OU since the last gen or beyond that. This made not only some of the previous OU staples mostly ignored but even some of the unbans (Like Tornadus-T or Zamazenta) while the old pokemon either were passed over for the new stuff or they also dropped due to the power level as their trades just didn't fit the metagame properly (M-Latias, Tapu Fini, Clefable, etc).
UU is also on the same boat, becoming what could be reffered to as another Gen 8 National Dex OU due to many similarities, it was a lot more notable that the last era just wouldn't be used as much, eventually dropping to RU.
Now these kind of problems are mostly derived from when a metagame starts and every tier has like over 15 pokemon waiting to get banned but once those metas start to establish, you'll see a more defined look on some of the tiers (except for maybe RU due to the ladder being wack).
Their identity will slowly take form as time goes on with shifts or council actions, we can't expect a perfect metagame straight up but we can slowly form an idea as to what it could be later on.
A bit of a empty post here because im just doing this on my phone and stuff to share a quick response.
Natdex UU is extremely misleading since a huge chunk of mons here are UU only because ladder doesn't utilize these mons properly, and overlooked out of ignorance. For example, Ting-Lu is an incredible tank and hazard setter that's being overlooked. There's only so many mons you can focus on, and many uncompetitive Natdex players (who are a large portion of the playerbase) only pick mons they like that were axed from Gen 9 dex. OU and UU has none of these issues for example.
Even a dozen bans wouldn't fix the issue imo, as we get more OU viable mons every gen. This gen alone had over 25 mons with 500 BST or higher. A majority of which are OU viable.
UU isn't supposed to be OU 2.0. Banning is a bad Band-Aid solution, the better option would be to increase cutoff. There are over 1000 mons in Natdex now, current cutoff rate is extremely inadequate and misleading, to put it bluntly.
I feel like pondering the nature and point of NDUU so early in the generation's life is a bit silly. It's only been a month of the tier existing after all. I also fail to see how banning is a bandaid situation when for the purposes of the ladder in NDUU it's hardly different than a Pokemon moving up in usage. I do think that cutoffs for NatDex should be increased by generation though.
I quietly reserve the opinion (since the last generation as a matter of fact) that National Dex should have a lower usage threshold for a "UU" Pokemon. Two things promptly shut me up.
Donphan, Mega Beedrill, Breloom, Regieleki and Quagsire received the collective ire of the National Dex UU player base. These were Pokemon that were not at all viable in the metagame but got the usage because the ladder likes its fancy toys. Despite not being good, the first four stayed UU whilst Quagsire quietly fell to RU. Given this climate, it would be awkward if I decided to voice my concerns. The last thing the NDUU player base would want is yet another useless Pokemon cluttering the builder.
The second and more compelling reason for keeping quiet was the fact that NDUU was able to organise itself over the course of its debut generation. Take a look at UUBL. 32 Pokemon reside there currently (which is fairly close to the SM UU count of 25). A lot of these threats are outright broken or are extremely centralising, only a handful of these mons exist in a grey area. What resulted as a result of these tiering decisions was a metagame that ended up becoming balanced towards the end of its life - or at the very least, significantly more balanced than the early Mega Medicham metagame. A similar process happened with both National Dex OU and National Dex RU. However, banning the broken stuff is only half of the story. For a metagame to function, it needs its offensive and defensive resources as well. Lowering the threshold to 3.41% will mean that Rotom-W, Dragonite and Skarmory could end up in OU (according to April 2022, since the later two usage stats have strings attached).
Pokemon with 1% usage can vary from niche sticky webbers like Shuckle and Ribombee to clearly bad stuff to the odd Zamazenta. There's way too much variance for that to work. Not to mention the cut offs represent odds.
I should probably stop now because Grammarly's been calling me a nerd for 30 minutes
I think this a bit of a misconception. Just because a mon is viable in OU doesn't mean it isn't still a UU mon. There are plenty of threats that are actively better in higher tiers than the one they occupy, because the support there is just better.
For example, even in this gen before it rose from usage, Urshifu-R was much easier to use in OU thanks to it hitting the field much more easily with cyclizar. In UU I tried it a few times, but ended up giving up on it because I couldn't find the space to trailblaze on anything, making up for its low speed.
Ting-lu is good in OU, this is agreed. It'll probably find a very remote niche in Ubers at some point too, though I don't think it'll ever be truly viable up there. But it's still a UU mon, since the teams it thrives on in OU - hazard stack and balance being the main ones - have simply better options, or are generally worse styles in the meta. The main one that jumps to mind being ferrothorn, which has a better defensive typing and leech seed for recovery. There are arguments to be made in favour of ting-lu over ferrothorn of course, namely ruination and whirlwind access, which will give it a niche over ferrothorn on certain teams, but that doesn't mean it isn't generally outclassed.
To expand on this a little, a mon doesn't necessarily even need to be outclassed if it's niche isn't as valuable in the meta. Take cinderace. It is not outclassed by anything in NDOU as a physical fire type breaker. Heck, the only competition it could have would be charizard-x. However, charizard-x can only function as a wincon, while cinderace is an excellent breaker with its band set, can theoretically be a wincon with swords dance, and is excellent hazard control with boots court change. In fact, it's the single best hazard control in the meta, being the only reliable way to not only clear hazards, but reverse them onto the opponent's side of the field despite gholdengo's presence on hazard stack. So what gives? Why is it in UU? Because that niche isn't as useful for most teams. If you want a fire type that beats blissey, go ahead. But that's the only thing you beat over char-y, the fire fighting coverage that cinderace brings just isn't as necessary into the tier. If you've been struggling with hazard stack, and have the room on your team, cinderace is a good counter to that. But you can also run great tusk to threaten gholdengo out and get a spin that way. It's less reliable, sure, but more splashable by far. And the swords dance set is an oddity, in that you have to run blaze over libero to maintain your stab pyro ball, or burn your tera to regain fire typing. If the nerf to protean/libero hadn't happened, this set would be very strong, but unfortunately it now falls a little flat when you could instead have a swords dance urshifu or a quiver dance volcarona.
That being said, I'm well aware that tiering down here is a little whack at the moment. Garganacl is downright unkillable, kartana can tear apart most of the meta if given even an inch, and there are plenty of others that could be listed here too. There's also plenty of stuff that dropped to RU despite firmly being UU threats, the recently banned Espathra being the immediate example that leaps to mind. Also, goddamn swellow. But we're still very early in the metagame's lifespan, so this is inevitable in usage based tiering for less popular metagames. Give the meta time to stabilise, and RU time to get their bans through, and the tiering will make much more sense.
You might be wondering where I stand behind some of the slated Pokemon, so I'd like to share my thoughts. Going to lean towards expressing this as a player and not necessarily as a member of the council, as I personally think the bridge of communication is all but a little worrying atm.
Kartana
Easily the most dangerous and oppressive of the lot. Much more freed up in terms of speed tier without Torn, PDef mons like Buzzwole and M-Latias are often blasted through with boosted Tera and Z-Moves given the slightest chip, Steels can't win the 1v1 from full due to SD Sacred Sword ignoring the would-be ID in Skarm's case, Scarf invalidates most revenge killers as the 2nd fastest scarfer in the tier itself, while still not being too bad against most of its aforementioned defensive checks with last-slot Toxic. Not something I'd fight to keep around, if you couldn't tell.
Tapu Lele
Doesn't have it quite as easy due to lacking the intense speed tier of Kartana and being vulnerable to Pursuit once locked, but is still something I'm very much on the fence for regardless. Specs mostly lacks reliable switch-ins, but I still find the some of previous pivots, like Slowking to be easier to play with in practice, mainly due to the attacking moves being much easier to resist once scouted for, on top of Aegislash continuing to be a major driving force and even some lesser ones like SpDef Celesteela and AV Tangrowth getting slightly more recognition nowadays. CM with Tera also looks like it could help get around some of these with its added versatility in breaking things down and being harder to scout, but I'll have to experiment more to be sure with that one.
Kyurem
Not much else I can say here that's particularly different to how Lele plays when running similar offensive sets, defensive Teras such as Steel over Ice on Specs sets have been an interesting concept to try and give it more opportunities to wallbreak without the Rocks weakness around, and that seems like the easiest thing to take advantage of in a slower metagame - on top of options like NMI 3a and SubRoost still being prevalent.
Manaphy
Rain was (thankfully) toned down at the last minute, but I still find that the most prominent styles of HO are enough to preserve much of the offensive benefits that Manaphy brings to the table, despite the overall defensive survivability of offensive sets being toned down. Tail Glow sets are currently incredibly difficult to stop within a single Pokemon, with how easy it is to straight up overpower resists with Tail Glow and Z-Moves regardless of coverage, this is made especially worrisome when Manaphy often has the right bulk to directly engage with most offensive threats in the metagame itself, including common revenge killers from full, which reinforces its overbearing presence defensively. I would also strongly lean towards using the opportunity to act on this.
Gyarados
I honestly didn't quite get seeing this guy in the first slate, but I can see the reasons for him still being here - the amount of variety it has against the entire meta with its individual sets is frankly ridiculous at times, and it's also not great that it often has the bulk to live at least one unboosted hit in return. Nevertheless, I still do feel that all the strong speed control options which can hit it neutrally (Kartana, Tapu Lele, G-Zap) are present enough to KO it at realistic percentages, which when combined with the use of defensive Pokemon (Iron Hands and Dondozo mainly, along with dedicated Tera Slots on things such as Tangrowth and Kommo-o which you should be using regardless) that can take hits from either form to chip it down, gives the tier a decent shot at keeping it under control for the time being. Having the rocks weakness in base form really works to limit the amount of stuff it's able to do at once as well.
Victini
I’m not entirely convinced that Victini is unmanageable, but I’m edging towards a slight yes. Unlike most of the other Pokemon on this list, Z-Celebrate does in fact have defensive counterplay (Notably SpDef Darks and Psychics) - it’s just that the omniboost makes most of the counterplay either incredibly passive and reliant on hax to win, or incredibly easy to provide support against within the spectrum of said offensive sets, such as through hazards and/or Pursuit. Beyond this, Band sets with Tera Fire often invalidate the use of these (stuff like Tyranitar gets 2hkoed through resist) through sheer strength and momentum, and while not broken on its own, do help stretch the full extent of how far Victini can go with how both options rarely overlap in terms of threat potential.
Aegislash
Most of the talk until now hasn't been said for Aegislash in the slightest and I was honestly quite surprised. In addition to being far more defensively convenient in teambuilding than it was previously, it also doesn't help that some of the recent adaptions that Aegislash has been given more room to call down upon post-shifts, like Air Balloon to take advantage of Grounds lacking coverage, are further enhanced by the sheer amount of flexibility that Terestialization provides: namely through the additional defensive capabilities which can be applied to an already lengthy list of attributes offered by the typing and bulk alone, like with SubTox and SD to setup more freely, or Tera Ghost to give the dedicated breaker sets more kick, which also makes the prospect of abusing Blade form’s lack of initial power and frailty with a faster Pokemon far from ideal. Especially with King’s Shield’s ability to minimize momentum loss and the long-term impact said innate qualities have on both gameplay and teambuilder perspectives.
Garganacl
If I ever had a nickel for every time a public revote changed the course of the entire meta for a few more days, I'd unfortunately have two - but that's just about it when it comes to relevancy. Tera Garg's ability to completely shift the limited offensive counterplay along with it is simply way too big of an upside, catches way too much stuff off-guard.
Weavile
Hasn't really shown signs of taking off by itself more than the amount of stuff this enables in the back - just the item removal and/or threat of Pursuit being good into commonly spammed defensive cores that currently makes it annoying to handle other mons alongside it per se. PDef Dondozo is otherwise a hard stop on fat, Tapu Fini and Iron Hands aren't directly threatened by much and both hold up strongly when considering the fast-paced nature of offense, while others such as Buzzwole, Skarmory, Helmet Clefable, Z Scizor (If you're capable of fitting it) can soft-check or better regardless of Tera, to say nothing of all the other defensive Pokemon running dedicated types (Water and Steel mainly, but anything that makes you neutral works too) which can help them take Axels/Knock in a pinch and exploit its frailty when chipped, on top of speed control being more readily available compared to SS given the increased prevalence of scarfers and weather on teams.
I'll throw my two cents in as well on the radar post, since it seems I'm here to stay this gen.
One of the ones I mentioned in my last post, kartana is undoubtedly the best mon in the tier atm. It's incredibly straining on the teambuilder, forcing a lot of HO to run autotomise celesteela of all things just to not instantly lose to it, and even that doesn't beat swords dance kart if it gets a boost up, being one of the many pokemon in the tier to just instantly die to +2 knock off. It's coverage isn't exactly hard to predict, but that doesn't mean much when its coverage is nigh perfect. We don't have defensive zapdos to handle it, we lost torn, your only hope is either to rely on it being choiced and get 5 50/50s right throughout a game to not instantly lose to either it or its teammates after it comes in, or have a scarfer to revenge it after it takes a kill on SD. Incredibly straining on teambuilding, needs to go.
This is pretty much my favourite mon in the tier, and I would say the best scarfer around. As such, you can probably assume a little bit of bias here, but I don't think lele is too much in general. There's too much stuff that either forces it into 50/50s to get any damage down at all, or outspeeds and revenges it if it's not scarf. Which brings me onto my main comment, which is its reliance on choiced sets. Choice scarf is easily its best set, shortly followed by the specs wallbreaker. Calm mind to me feels too slow to act as a wincon in the tier as it is, though it functions as an incredibly effective stallkiller if you have room for it in that role. That being said, tera psychic has so much cleaning potential on scarf sets into even slightly weakened frail teams, specs is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, I would understand action being taken on this one in a suspect. But I don't think it deserves a quick ban.
Ironically, this has never felt too bad to me, though that might be because I rarely see it and haven't used it properly myself. But, on paper, it looks monstrous. There is incredibly little that can withstand the combination of freeze dry, draco meteor and earth power on a specs set, especially with it running ice beam in the last slot if it doesn't need any extra coverage for the team. It absolutely abuses the presence of gliscor in the tier, and is nigh unwallable by stall and balance due to freeze dry nuking through gastrodon, ice beam 3HKOing sp.def clefable and 2HKOing it with even a little bit of chip/50% chance to 2HKO after rocks, earth power 3HKOing balance sp.def tyranitar - which struggles to recover the damage with leftovers - and dealing 60% to sp.def garganacl. And playing around this set makes playing around its other sets incredibly difficult, such as dragon dance icicle spear or dragon dance icium-z. Another one that I would say needs a suspect rather than a quick ban, but I would not object to a quick ban if it does happen.
I don't think there's much to be said here. Behind screens it has ridiculously good bulk with 100/100/100 defenses, allowing it to live a hit while it boosts with tail glow then likely kill back, and then kill whatever you try to revenge with since it's so deceptively tanky. And that's if it doesn't get a +1 speed boost from z-rain dance too, which allows it to outspeed a lot of common scarfers - like lele. This mon has no counters, and often has such limited counterplay that if it gets in at the wrong time it can just sweep. This one, I'd say, should go.
Don't think this one is too bad, honestly. The rocks weakness on z and mega sets is relatively limiting, at least on first switch in, which tends to make it very all-or-nothing in my experience. It comes in once, then either takes a kill, sweeps or dies. At +1 it fails to outspeed common scarfers, mold breaker doesn't really help mega gyara in a noticeable way and it also doesn't OHKO defensive mons that it doesn't have a super effective hit on until it accrues multiple boosts. However, this is less of an issue due to its expansive movepool and access to moxie when it's in its base form. And, along with this, it's almost harder to revenge in its base form due to the lack of scarfed electric types being used and its speed tier allowing it to outspeed mega manectric at +1. However, I think this mon is fine all in all.
One word: tyranitar. Defensively checking this mon is not that difficult, even when it does hit z-celebrate. It having the same speed tier as manaphy as well as the ability to boost its defenses makes this mon incredibly threatening into faster, frailer teams, but, unlike manaphy, its defensive counterplay is incredibly splashable. Sp.def clefable completely walls it on stall with unaware, tyranitar not only walls it but pursuit traps it though likely has to use up its tera to be safe from focus blast if it isn't at full, ting-lu whirlwinds it out, and kartana still outspeeds it with scarf to do a chunk with knock off. So, typically, all you have to do is hit it as it clicks celebrate and you'll have more than enough room to beat it using a solid team
This has been a novel one. Aegislash is so versatile that reliably countering it is almost impossible. Plus its ease of beating its checks with sub toxic is astounding. Usually I'd say that the presence of a defensive steel on your team should shut it down pretty effectively, but that can also be abused by a swords dance set using close combat and tera ghost with shadow sneak to give it actually decent priority, which is the main thing the swords dance set was lacking last gen. And that's just two of its sets, ignoring the choice specs set or autotomise weakness policy that are less common. This coupled with its ease in hitting the field thanks to its excellent defensive profile makes it incredibly difficult to manage, especially with its defensive counterplay being so limited with toxic and using sub to abuse its offensive counters. I'm not sure about this one, though I think I'll ere on the side of ban rather than not.
I feel I've said my piece on this mon more than enough times at this point. If you want my exact reasoning, it's either on the discord unsubtle plug join the discord or on my stall team post on the bazaar. Ban this mon.
I don't find weavile to be that oppressive honestly, but I also don't really see it that often. I think I need more time to formulate an opinion on this one, though it seems very strong with a band set on paper.
I know it's a a week or two old now but I just wanted to add my thoughts as I think it is relevant to the On the Radar thread, that I also fully agree that the cutoff for usage needs to be changed, I think this is where a large amount of the tiering issues are stemming from. I know that power creep is just like that, but I don't think that Pokémon like Kartana, Tapu Lele, Kyurem or even stuff like TTar/Exca should be in NDUU, at least now how I see it anyway? It just feels off to me when like, it's not just a few Pokémon dropping to lower tiers but like half of the tier, that stuff doesn't feel right or make sense to me. I also fully agree with the sentiment that just banning everything does not work in my opinion, last Gen's UUBL was utterly laughable with how large it was, it was large enough to be a tier of its own, there were that many Pokémon there. Yes, some were less viable in NDOU but I really don't think this was by very much. With Over 1000 Pokémon now, we truly do have way too many Pokémon to have tiers this small, so the main balance thing I would like to see is lowering the usage threshold for National Dex formats.
As for the mons on the radar, the only one I really personally want to see gone is Garganacl, it picks up free passive damage on things way, way too easily, and the fact two of the types that normally can deal with it are weak to Salt Cure is even more reason that it's just busted. You can't Toxic it, unless if you take it out quickly, you are probably losing to this thing. I I made a Covert Cloak Mold Breaker Druddigon set and slapped it on one of my teams purely because of how dumb it was to deal with. I am fully biased here though as an offense player so take that opinion with a grain of salt (haha).
Kartana, Tapu Lele and Kyurem are definitely all very strong, and probably shouldn't be in NDUU, but I think that's more down to usage than anything, see above.
Manaphy has not to me been too problematic, the main set that is difficult to deal with is the Z Rain Dance one, otherwise it is fairly easy to revenge kill. Gyarados is not in need of a ban in my opinion, yes it has a fair bit of versatility but it is weak to some pretty big stuff and it is not naturally very fast, and a lot of its power relies on Snowballing with Moxie, which it is possible to keep in check.
I have barely seen any of Victini, Weavile and Aegislash so I really can't comment on these, I personally feel that the only one in potential need of a ban might be Victini? But even then I'm not sure.
Seeing a lot of discussion derailing the thread so going to step in to say that this is the Metagame Discussion thread, and not a place to discuss tiering policy. If you want usage thresholds changed, this is not the thread to do it. UU is simply Pokemon that are not used enough to be considered OU, so asking for OU to change its usage threshold in the UU meta thread is like trying to get McDonalds to change its fries price by talking to the Burger King ball pit staff. And in the first place, I'm pretty sure that this is a smogon-wide decision, and I highly doubt that Smogon is going to change their usage tiering policy because of lil' old NDUU, even if this was the way to go about it or even a problem to begin with (spoiler: it's not). The only exception to this is in cases of old gens where there is nowhere near a sufficient userbase for usage based tiering to be accurate, and, guess what, we're not an old gen.
Reading the discussion here, the majority of the reason for this seems to stem, as far as I can tell, from either "NDUU doesn't feel like a UU tier" or "these Pokemon shouldn't be UU". These are both subjective opinions with no real stats to back it up beyond "they were OU last gen". The only real stats we have, the NDOU VR, goes against this too, given the majority of the Pokemon being brought up aren't actually that great in OU rn, with Kart, Clef, Exca and Ting being B, TTar, Rillaboom and Gliscor being all the way down in C, MTar sitting a little higher at B+ and only Lele being in the A ranks (and many of the mons in OU's A ranks that were UU either already rose on their own or were banned already so the system is working properly in that regard). However, even more important than all of that, even if the VR indicated the opposite of what I just detailed, I cannot stress this enough - it is still early gen.
Many OU Pokemon from the previous gen always end up in UU or lower (at least prior to Dexit, regional seems to be an entirely new dex every gen so this probably isn't applicable there anymore) in the early gen and rise up later when new toy syndrome wears off. Remember, early last gen, even though we started a few months after the beginning of the gen and new toy syndrome had already died down, we still had Mega Scizor (A at the end of the gen) and Kyurem (also A). Gen 7 UU had Clefable and Gliscor, and this was the gen immediately after the one where Clefable was the undisputed king of OU and the spreader of the yellow colour that people would have nightmares about, and both were pretty good in OU later in the gen as well. Point is, this always happens, and it has never been an issue in any previous gen, and it isn't one now.
There was one post that brought up the point that Smogon is usage based so most mons can be good somewhere, which is mostly true, but Smogon as a whole do not bend over backwards and change tiering policy to maximise the number of Pokemon that are viable somewhere. Otherwise, something would have been done about the BL Pokemon that have been unviable in the higher tier over the gens, such as Staraptor every gen before last, when it finally escaped UUBL, or Thundurus-I and Latias (among others) last gen in NDUU. It's unfortunate, but until such a time as we get playable BL tiers (and even then there's no guarantee) that's just how things are. And, given the ranks of the Pokemon being mentioned in particular, I would argue that right now, the system is working perfectly fine, as most of these mons aren't that great in OU themselves, only two being higher than B, so they're falling to somewhere where they're more viable.
Yes, there are more previous gen OU mons in NDUU this gen than usual, but that's because OU has also gotten a lot of extremely powerful additions to shove more mons than usual down in usage, and that's before we take into account the massive ramifications Terastal has on balance, altering usage even more. No, that isn't a reason to change tiering policy to account for some subjective idea of what should be OU or what NDUU should feel like. It didn't change when the gen 8 D rank quintet spent months in NDUU, after all.
Finally, even if it were to be changed, it would just lead to a lot more Pokemon that "should be NDUU" to be NDOU, and the whole thing would just start again. Let ladder sort itself out. That said, If you have a legitimate reason that you believe usage thresholds should be changed, talk to someone with more say in tiering policy than the residents of the NDUU meta discussion thread. Give evidence and detail your reasoning in order to maximise the chances of it being considered, but don't get your hopes up. Regardless, posting about it here is just derailing the thread, and from here on will be treated as such.
Seeing a lot of discussion derailing the thread so going to step in to say that this is the Metagame Discussion thread, and not a place to discuss tiering policy. If you want usage thresholds changed, this is not the thread to do it. UU is simply Pokemon that are not used enough to be considered OU, so asking for OU to change its usage threshold in the UU meta thread is like trying to get McDonalds to change its fries price by talking to the Burger King ball pit staff. And in the first place, I'm pretty sure that this is a smogon-wide decision, and I highly doubt that Smogon is going to change their usage tiering policy because of lil' old NDUU, even if this was the way to go about it or even a problem to begin with (spoiler: it's not). The only exception to this is in cases of old gens where there is nowhere near a sufficient userbase for usage based tiering to be accurate, and, guess what, we're not an old gen.
Reading the discussion here, the majority of the reason for this seems to stem, as far as I can tell, from either "NDUU doesn't feel like a UU tier" or "these Pokemon shouldn't be UU". These are both subjective opinions with no real stats to back it up beyond "they were OU last gen". The only real stats we have, the NDOU VR, goes against this too, given the majority of the Pokemon being brought up aren't actually that great in OU rn, with Kart, Clef, Exca and Ting being B, TTar, Rillaboom and Gliscor being all the way down in C, MTar sitting a little higher at B+ and only Lele being in the A ranks (and many of the mons in OU's A ranks that were UU either already rose on their own or were banned already so the system is working properly in that regard). However, even more important than all of that, even if the VR indicated the opposite of what I just detailed, I cannot stress this enough - it is still early gen.
Many OU Pokemon from the previous gen always end up in UU or lower (at least prior to Dexit, regional seems to be an entirely new dex every gen so this probably isn't applicable there anymore) in the early gen and rise up later when new toy syndrome wears off. Remember, early last gen, even though we started a few months after the beginning of the gen and new toy syndrome had already died down, we still had Mega Scizor (A at the end of the gen) and Kyurem (also A). Gen 7 UU had Clefable and Gliscor, and this was the gen immediately after the one where Clefable was the undisputed king of OU and the spreader of the yellow colour that people would have nightmares about, and both were pretty good in OU later in the gen as well. Point is, this always happens, and it has never been an issue in any previous gen, and it isn't one now.
There was one post that brought up the point that Smogon is usage based so most mons can be good somewhere, which is mostly true, but Smogon as a whole do not bend over backwards and change tiering policy to maximise the number of Pokemon that are viable somewhere. Otherwise, something would have been done about the BL Pokemon that have been unviable in the higher tier over the gens, such as Staraptor every gen before last, when it finally escaped UUBL, or Thundurus-I and Latias (among others) last gen in NDUU. It's unfortunate, but until such a time as we get playable BL tiers (and even then there's no guarantee) that's just how things are. And, given the ranks of the Pokemon being mentioned in particular, I would argue that right now, the system is working perfectly fine, as most of these mons aren't that great in OU themselves, only two being higher than B, so they're falling to somewhere where they're more viable.
Yes, there are more previous gen OU mons in NDUU this gen than usual, but that's because OU has also gotten a lot of extremely powerful additions to shove more mons than usual down in usage, and that's before we take into account the massive ramifications Terastal has on balance, altering usage even more. No, that isn't a reason to change tiering policy to account for some subjective idea of what should be OU or what NDUU should feel like. It didn't change when the gen 8 D rank pentuo spent months in NDUU, after all.
Finally, even if it were to be changed, it would just lead to a lot more Pokemon that "should be NDUU" to be NDOU, and the whole thing would just start again. Let ladder sort itself out. That said, If you have a legitimate reason that you believe usage thresholds should be changed, talk to someone with more say in tiering policy than the residents of the NDUU meta discussion thread. Give evidence and detail your reasoning in order to maximise the chances of it being considered, but don't get your hopes up. Regardless, posting about it here is just derailing the thread, and from here on will be treated as such.
But yeah as how Niadev pulled out the whole paragraph for this, not only is the option a scrapped idea from a while ago (which is now something that people who discussed it or saw it mostly care about) but it's not even an actual option by this point. You just gotta accept how certain things are made and give the tier the time it needs to develop.
Anyway with that out i wanna talk about what i think are the big 3 in terms of their impact and current dominance in the metagame on this radar list.
1. Paper is the better W on RPS tbh
Straight up out of the box, this is perhaps one of the most hyped OU > UU mons at the beginning of the tier and while it struggled to make use of the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets due to the prominence of faster threats (Mainly Tornadus-T and Zamazenta), the Choice Scarf variant was one of the best revenge killer day 1. Completely slicing through would-be-faster threats like Weavile, or Unboosted Iron Valiant, almost every scarfer which included Tapu Lele, one of the most popular scarfers around, Jirachi or Victini, to even boosted menaces like Volcarona, Reg and M-Gyarados, +2 Blaziken, etc. Even if it was gonna be hard walled by facing off squads with Torn-T, Glowking, M-Latias and others it could just click Knock Off to accomplish the bare min while also making use of the excellent typing to still play around opposing grasses like Rillaboom. As of right now, a lot of pressure has been taken off Kartana in a huge way thanks to the raise in Torn-T, Volcarona, Zard Y and Melmetal (mainly those 4) and the ban of Zamazenta and Zard X which elevated the old SD and CB sets back to being the expected threats from day 1. This is probably the one im expecting to see banned on an absolute majority.
2. The Classroom Weirdo
The next one on the list which is also a mon that was UU during the last gen for a short amount of time before obviously getting yeeted. Almost everything that made Lele in the past generation still applies here (with the exception of AV kinda), one of the greatest cleaners and wallbreakers in the tier with the excellent support of Psychic Terrain, Lele never changed, only the enviroment of pokemon which it chooses to attract the attention of. Aegislash being the main answer for most teams (AV Melmetal was the next best thingbut it strugged with longevity and Focus Blast means it won't come in on psychics safely later on and it rose anyway) has kept it in check for this entire time alongside other counters like both Slowking and Glowking, Celesteela or checks like Ting-Lu and Victini. A really fun pokemon to play with but it's also a really obnoxious one to keep in mind.
3. Smelling Salts is the real one
Not much to say that hasn't been said already about this pokemon and while i haven't faced many Garganacls (nor did i had any huge problems with it), it's easy to see why this mon is just not fun at all due to Salt Cure being the most borked shit ever (also no status haha).
Honorable Mention:
Most likely going to get banned later on but considering how much it brings into the tier it's kinda hard to let it go. Without Aegislash most of the broken attackers would just become even more busted than what they already are (Lele, Baxcalibur, Kommo-O, Hawlucha, Rillaboom and like the other half of the tier im too lazy to mention) and Aegislash brings even the smallest hope to get out of those terrifying matchups, even if it's not the perfect one to have you can always count on it for anything.
First month of beta is out! i am aware i'm double posting but i got permission to do so and thus, i'll do the post again
Raises:
From UUBL to OU From UU to OU From UU to OU From RU to OU From RU to OU
Drops:
From OU to UU From OU to UU From OU to UU From OU to UU () From OU to UU
While i avoided talking about raises last time (on the mons that we did lose), these two are probably huge offenders in the meta. You can see my thoughts on Kartana in my previous post but with Rillaboom that thing was a menace not only from day 1 but with both of its sets being as equally effective. Swords Dance is one of the big weapons that HO has on their disposal as it was an option that helped not only agaisn't opposing offense but also defense in a major way, as well as the grassy terrain support, Choice Band was the easiest to put on a team with instant pressure and flexibility while doing some beautiful offensive cores.
BLOBS ARE BACK And now we gotta ban Garganacl ASAP before anyone even tries to do some funny stall shenanigans rn. For real tho we haven't had the blobs for 3 years and it's really impressive to not only see Chansey drop but Blissey as well, making a potential decent option for offense (it still suffers from some of the issues it had previously tho) meanwhile Chansey is gonna be the staple and part of the main stall trio (M-Sab, Garg and Chansey itself).
We can now enjoy sun again! Torkoal is as good of a setter as ever and now we don't have to use Scovillain because Venusaur is also back for more.
Honorable Mentions:
TR is dead L
Out of all the possible raises, this one happened? i feel a deja vu on this one
Wouldn't say it's gonna be that impactful rn but who knows, maybe some leech seed knock shenanigans are gonna be popping out here
SWELLOW IS STILL UU???????? WHAT IN THE WORLD??????
alright, now that that topic was handled, I can now give my (probably wrong) opinion on the new drops!
Lunar Blessing looks to be like a fun cool new gimmick to build a team around, but with less bulk, I really do not know. Also it would be horrible at making Sushi tbh.
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SUN'S BACK BABY WOOOOOO!
Ok but legit tho, Sun will defo be really fun to play with, especially with some of the Paradox Pokemon down here like Slither Wing and.... maybe Brute Bonnet? Those are more offensive to be fair, got to think about Defensive Sun. Wait... how does that work?
&
Will defo be nice on Stall teams, maybe even Bulky Offense with Teleport support. I do think that Blissey will be better than Chansey since Blissey can run HDB compared to the Purple Rock that Chansey holds. On the topic of stall, I finally think that Stall could get more usage with these two finally down here. WHO'S READY FOR SKARMBLISS?????
also ban Garganacl, please. I do not like the Salt rock pyramid with the Ghost Resist and Salt Cure and the Status Condition bypass code and and and
Very bored and shifts only came out recently, so I'd like to share a few more underrated Pokemon that I also feel benefit the most from some of these changes.
Keldeo has always been a diverse offensive threat with the typing and speed to make things work, that fact remains no different today. With two of the most common scarfers having risen to OU (Kartana and Lele), on top of Rillaboom no longer being around to threaten it with boosted priority and other offensive Waters moving out of the tier, Keldeo might have what it just needs to become a legitimate choice this time around. Scarf currently has the defensive capabilities to check some huge threats in the current metagame, such as +1 M-Tyranitar and M-Gyarados, on top of revenge killing others such as Cinderace and Tera Normal Kommo-o quite well, while still remaining an effective cleaner with Hydro Pump when push comes to shove, being faster than even Scarf Blacephalon. Of course, other potential options like it (Specs and CM) may be severely limited by the likes of common Waters and Psychics found on most teams, such as Tapu Fini, the Lati twins, and both Slowking formes - to counteract this, I've also enjoyed using Keldeo alongside Pursuit support on Sand, which can help chip down Fini while forcibly removing the aftermentioned two, on top of appreciating the defensive pressure Keldeo applies against most physical walls for Sand Rush Excadrill to sweep more easily.
Cinderace is something that I've only recently picked up on, and it's still solid overall. Despite the Libero nerf, it still retains some very important traits that can be put to good use, namely its excellent offensive speed tier and coverage. STAB Pyro Ball is currently an extremely valuable move to have, due to the majority of physical walls (Skarmory, Buzzwole, Tangrowth .etc) being weak to it, making for a very strong option as an offensive pivot on physical offense teams with the sheer amount of coverage it has, frequently forcing Defensive Teras from these mons that would leave them vulnerable to other physical attackers commonly paired with it, like Iron Hands against the most common type: Water. U-turn also remains incredibly valuable, as the prevalence of Helmet on the aftermentioned Pokemon threatened by Pyro Ball makes it a very free move to use (as it's often STAB due to being the first move you click against a forced switch) that is incredibly difficult to stop in tandem with Boots, as it too punishes common defensive Pokemon such as Mega Latias and Ting-Lu with significant damage for even attempting to stay in. The continued prevalence of Clefable and Tera Fairy on a lot of other Pokemon (Dondozo, Slowbro, Ting-Lu .etc) makes boosted Gunk Shot extremely deadly in the right situation too, due to its additional Poison rate against most things that would want to come into it.
Zeraora was somewhat overlooked at the start of the tier’s existence, having previously been overshadowed by the plethora of alternative speed control options over it, most of which could outspeed and force KOes on more important targets like +1 Volcarona and Iron Valiant. With the majority of them gone, the slower pace of most teams might just give way for Zeraora to really shine; even against teams that it can’t directly threaten much of, being able to outpace and force out the more common offensive staples of the present, such as Alakazam, Weavile, and most Flying-types on offense, greatly increases the amount of opportunities you get to utilize both of Knock Off and Volt Switch’s lasting effects, which can easily wear down and outlast huge swaths of the tier's defensive pivots in conjunction with Boots. The new immune that would otherwise stop this: Gliscor, can be dropped by HP Ice on the switch, while Bulk Up sets with Tera could also have some merit, taking advantage of Zeraora’s speed tier to act as a potent late-game cleaner, giving it the power to break through its own checks such as Mega Latias with super effective hits more easily. Being one of the few options that can naturally outspeed and limit +1 M-Tyranitar with Close Combat remains a huge boon to have as well.
These are all unique and exceptional Pokemon that could be considered overshadowed by the previous rises in some form - just thought I'd list them here out of the hope that people might start using them more, now that the tier is progressively opening up to additional experimentation.
Lunar Blessing looks to be like a fun cool new gimmick to build a team around, but with less bulk, I really do not know. Also it would be horrible at making Sushi tbh.
Calm Mind + Jungle Healing Lunar Blessing could be something. Especially after it teras it might be hard to stop. Other than that i see no reason to run it outside of TR, or just running Moonlight > Lunar Blessing in general.
now for my actual post:
Mons we stole from RU
Broken Bax Is Here To Stay?
At the start of the meta I wrote off this mon as a worse kyurem, but HOLY SHIT Baxcalibur is something else. Access to a spammable dragon move is incredible for it and it is really hard to stop once it starts setting up. I believe that the standard set is HDB DD, but the real threat is Loaded Dice DD Bax. Mon is ridiculous with an incredibly strong and consistent ice stab combined with a very strong and easily spammable dragon stab. Combine it with tera Steel and it's a very strong sweeper that's incredibly difficult to check. Great mon that's borderline broken and deserving of a rise to UU in my opinion.
New Speed Control In Town?
Blacephalon is alright as a Scarf user and it's even better as a Specs user. Other sets like CM + Z Move seem strong too. I definitely need to experiment with this mon some more, but I think the meta isn't very kind to it at the moment. Blissey dropping in addition with Tyranitar, Garganacl, and Ting-Lu being everywhere isn't fun for the clown. But when all is said an done, it can pull its weight in some matchups (emphasis on some). Sun teams being viable again is also great for it, as it's basically Chi-Yu lite.
Another Speed Booster On The Rise?
Blaziken is a very powerful sweeper here. The Zamazenta and Annihilape bans benefited tons of fighting types and this mon is no exception. Blaziken can comfortably fit on a ton of builds like some Balances, Bulky Offences, Hyper Offence, and even the revived Sun. Swords Dance + Speed Boost is a very deadly combo, and the fact that it resists many common forms of priority makes it really hard to check. I don't think this mon is going to be healthy for the meta and it should be on the watchlist.
Too Much Salt In This Meta?
Garganacl is an insane mon. Salt Cure is absolutely ridiculous to maneuver around and stuff like Iron Defense + Body press just walls every physical attacker in the tier. It's super broken and a ban is definitely justified. And thanks to the addition of Blissey and Chansey joining the meta, Stall turns from a strong playstyle, to being nigh impossible to break (might be exaggerating, but only time will tell).
What Is A King Without His Servants?
Hawlucha is good, but both Rillaboom and Tapu Lele rising to OU is really bad for it since it doesn't have a splashable way to trigger Unburden on HO anymore. It now has to rely on the harder to fit Tapu Bulu and the very mediocre Indeedee in order to setup on HO. However on Bulky Offence teams it still has Tapu Fini so it can still be a solid endgame win-condition provided it has the proper support.
Some Good Role Compression?
Also very surprised this mon rose to UU. Hydreigon is another good mon i've yet to experiment with. But Lele and Kart leaving the tier is great for it, while Sun being viable again increases it's usefulness by a lot. Scarf sets add some cool role compression. Whether it's a fast rocker or defogger, it's nice to have. Specs are also really strong and it's not in a super awkward speed tier either so I'm sure it can make some use of it. With all the fighting types gaining popularity, I doubt Nasty Plot is going to be super consistent but we'll see.
The Real Boomburst Sweeper?
Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray + Tera Normal Boomburst is absurdly strong, being borderline broken thanks to the coverage it has over Swellow. It's really good on Hyper Offense teams but unfortunately it demands your tera slot most of the time. Another option for HO would be SubDrum Kommo-o, but mons like Buzzwole and Skarmory are bound to give it some headaches. for more balanced teams, Physical Defensive Kommo-o seems decent but it has consistency issues. Kommonium Z can also be a fun endgame win condition.
Where's The Exterminator?
Honestly, this mon isn't very good and is a shitmon. This mon is a pest (thus the title obv) and shouldn't have been in UU. However, I can see why ladder has taken an interest in this noob trap; a Maushold after a single Tidy Up appears to be one of the fastest mons in the meta, but I feel that its overreliance of Population Bomb to sweep teams is rough due to the amount of splashable normal resists in the tier. Like Swellow, it's usable and sure it can farm a team once or twice, but realistically there are better mons out there if you want a more consistent sweeper.
What Can't This Mon Do?
Mew is a very versatile mon and has an endless amount of capability. You can really do whatever you want with this mons, HO Lead, Defensive Pivot, Setup Sweeper, or my personal favorite: Demon Mew. I have high hopes for this mon, especially in a meta with a ton of new fighting types on the rise.
The Urshifu Clone?
Quaquaval is an interesting rise since it's kind of a mediocre. Even with Urshifu rising to OU, it still feels unneeded in the current metagame. The only set i've seen has been SD Sweeper, but the Bulk Up + Roost sets might be the way to go here as a nice endgame win-con.
A Snake In The Garden of Eden?
Serperior is a very strong sweeper thanks to Contrary + Leaf Storm blowing holes into a ton of offensive teams. Very high speed tier as well so it don't struggle to revenge kill threats either. Sub + Glare is its main set, but Defog + Choice scarf is pretty good role compression. Great mon overrall.
Back In UU At Last?
Weavile has unsurprisingly left RU. This mon is very powerful and a very good wallbreaker in the metagame. Choice Band sets are incredibly difficult to switch into unless your name is Buzzwole. Swords Dances sets are also looking pretty strong but that's less common from what i've seen. The problem gets significantly worse if weavile teras (it's basically UU's version of Chien-Pao). It's not super difficult to check in the builder luckily due to it's shit defensive typing and frailty. But if you give it an oppertunity, then it'll start tearing through stuff.
Only four atm so not too bad tbh. Preferably I'd like 0 shitmons but it doesn't matter.
Was Ladder Listening To Georgebowserjr? georgebowserjr's desperate calls to "#FREECRAWDAUNT" have finally been answered. Now that the Trick Room hype has died down and Rain has decided to run other wallbreakers like Floatzel, Crawdaunt has been pretty bad in UU. Let's hope it has a better time in RU. I don't think it's going to be broken right off the bat, since NDRU is basically a slightly more power crept version of gen 8 NDUU.
Going Through The Motions?
Ditto dropping is a surprise to no one. Hard to fit on teams and generally an uncommon sight to see on ladder. Nothing much to say about it since it's likely going to have an unnotable career in RU.
The Butcher Of RU?
Ladder isn't really sold on Manaphy HO yet so it's gonna take awhile till they get wind of it. It's still a really strong mon in UU and Rain is still a viable weather so I don't really get it. Anyways now RU has a new broken mon to deal with. Rain teams in particular are borderline impossible to handle consistently without Rillaboom OR Serperior to semi-check them.
Who's Ready For Trick Room?
Marowak-A, Porygon2, and Crawdaunt dropping help Trick Room out significantly. It's still kind of a mediocre playstyle without Hatterene but these mons are sure to pull their weight on Trick Room.
Dangerously Cheesy?
I don't care what the ladder thinks, this mon should be UUBL again and nothing is going to change my mind. It is one of the worst things to ever grace the lower tiers. It's only viable set being a Z-hypnosis + Tail Glow set which has a 60% to win on preview (provided speed control has been eliminated). Now that this mon is in RU, it's free to terrorize two tiers. Yippee! Please ban this mon, it is one of the few mons that can be called uncompetitive.
As the above post stated, Swellow remains in UU, this mon is gonna be the next Mega-Beedrill fr (This is a bad thing ofc). I truely hope that it find's a niche in this tier but it's doubtful imo.
All in all the shifts were pretty reasonable bar like 2 mons. Fighting and Dragon types seem to be back in fashion on the ladder, so lets enjoy them since we stole them from RU anyways.
Also I might write about Stall's increased viability but this post is already pretty long.
edit: Deleted Heracross-Mega because it didn't rise to UU :/ I've been informed that it did rise to UU, but it was just an error in the builder. Waste of a write up :(
With all the new analysis going around, I figured that looking just into singular mons has been better covered by Runoisch and Arishem. So, instead, I'll try to offer at least some insight on a couple good defensive cores that I think can handle these new shifts.
Oh boy we got the blob, who's ready for a gen 3 remake? SkarmBliss is, as always, an excellent core. Between the two of them they blanket check almost all physical and special threats that don't pack specific coverage to hit them. Plus with the ban of kartana, who could reliably force skarmory in to knock off its boots/helmet and chip it down with hazards, this core can actually do what it's designed to do. Be a massive pain in the ass. However, there are some checks that need to be accounted for with it.
This is most certainly not an exhaustive list, but you can probably notice a bit of a trend in these mons. Blaziken, Cinderace and Weavile all do roughly the same thing; a physical breaker that immediately threatens a KO on Blissey with moves that skarmory can't deal with. These being close combat and flare blitz on Blaziken, pyro ball on Cinderace and knock off on Weavile (which functions for chipping down skarm the same way kartana did). Past that, there's Garganacl with body press to threaten a KO, massively chip skarm with salt cure, as well as an immunity to toxic, but what else is new with that stupid pile of rocks at this point; the Lati twins can carry psyshock to threaten it with huge damage on the physical side; and Xurkitree just uses Blissey's passivity to set up two tail glows and shred it wide open anyway.
To address this within a defensive core, I would like to suggest the following:
The first thing to note here is that Blissey can handle any and all special threats, which is why we don't have slowking in here despite its higher special attack adding more strength to its future sights. However, Slowbro is excellent for completely stonewalling non-thunder punch Blaziken, Cinderace locked into pyro ball or swords dance variants, and with a colbur berry it can completely blank Weavile. It also packs the psyshock resistance that can help patch up defences for Blissey against threats that might otherwise threaten Skarmory with fire coverage, like mega Gardevoir. The colbur berry also allows it to absorb a crunch from mega Gyarados or Tyranitar and threaten back with a body press for over 50% damage or just a flat KO, both of which can otherwise brute force through this core if skarmory is sufficiently weakened. Add on to that the general utility of regenerator, the potential for double teleport pivoting between it and Blissey and scald access, and this is a very useful addition to the core that helps it bypass a lot of its counters. Other than Garganacl. Because fuck the rock.
Thank god Kartana is gone, and Gliscor can now thrive in its place of checking pretty much every unboosted relevant physical mon in the meta. Tyranitar also functions as essentially a diet Blissey, giving solid defensive capabilities into most special threats going around that don't carry fighting coverage. With the new additions of Torkoal and Venusaur too, overwriting weather is going to be more important than ever to withstand the onslaught, plus the reliable rocks and defog combination they provide allows for excellent hazard control throughout a game. I'm not going to add an idea for a third defensive mon onto this, as I feel this can function both as a 2 mon BO defensive core, but definitely has options to spec more into balance with another partner to handle special threats that Tyranitar can't. Notable inclusions to this list are Volcanion, Manaphy and Serperior, though there are plenty others.
As a note, stall's viability, as well as general defensive play, has gone up massively with these shifts. Even when Garganacl inevitably gets banned, it has so many more options and so many fewer checks that, for any team at this point, a stall-killer or incredibly potent wallbreaker is almost mandatory. But, as said before, I'll refer you to Runoisch's and Arishem's posts above this for more information on the potent offensive threats that could be going around at the moment. Hopefully this is helpful, and good luck to you in your matches!
Thoughts on some stuff in the META I feel are relatively good atm.
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Return
Alright gonna be honest this shit is better than tera electric. Been using it on ladder a bit on an alt and this shit kinda just dumps on ur most common answers. Spdef Tera Water Glis, M-Latias and Spdef Fini all drop to+2 Tera Normal Return. Fini in specific can be turned into set up fodder due to screens and not being water weak, allowing you to most likely just win on the spot. Another benefit is that you now have arguably a better typing to take advantage of the rising scarfer that is Blacephalon, allowing you to outplay the scarf shadow ball and turning that into set up fodder as well. The only thing you really miss out on is Dondozo and Alomomola MU vs stall, but honestly Blaziken + Mega Gyarados on HO is such a strong combo already that those arent an issue at all. The team kinda builds itself at that point once u slot those two together lol. Anyway this shit is really fucking good.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Blaziken Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Latias-Mega: 382-450 (105.2 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Blaziken Return vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 367-433 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Blaziken Return vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 394-464 (114.8 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Copied
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Blaziken Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 304-359 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Shamelessly stole this set from Sputnik's NDOU post. Shit is solid as fuck and tera allows you to completely swap your counterplay and allows this to spiral out of control very fast after a couple CM boost. You instantly cook any Bisharp, Tyranitar or Weavile trying to Pursuit, Crunch or Knock and turn it into either a kill or a chance to set up. Tera Fight also makes it much easier for you to break past stuff like the newly dropped Blissey / Chansey and cooks Steela due to gaining stab on Focus Blast. Magic Guard is just the icing on the cake honestly and allows you to have a really good MU vs Balance and Stall alike. The only issue vs Stall is the Mega Sableye MU but if you're able to get past that then you literally just win. You can opt to run Tera Fairy as well to essentially do the same thing but with an even better defensive typing that lets you MU better vs ID Body Press Garg. Tera Steel has merit but is worse off than the other two a lot of the time IMO. Also this slots really well on Sand Teams if you want another wincon that slots well with Excadrill.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sand Tomb
- Roost
- Taunt
- Knock Off
Gliscor is most often used as a defogger/rocker/sd breaker. However, this trapper set allows it to trap and remove pokemon that can't threaten it. It has a great MU against stall, being able to trap and remove alomomola, blissey/chansey, and garganacl. The EV spread is pretty standard and allows it to take hits reliably.
The last slot is pretty flexible, defog, stealth rock, and toxic can all be run, but I prefer knock off because it makes trapping garganacl a lot easier.
Okay cool, we got some other posts, so I'm not double posting let's go!
A new ruler of the tier has emerged, and dear god is it terrifying.
Iron Moth has emerged, in the light of the lele rise, as one of, if not the premier threat in the meta game. There are three sets the moth typically runs, which I will have imports of down below
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire/Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
Iron Moth @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire/Fairy/Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Morning Sun
- Toxic Spikes
There are two main things that set the moth apart from the rest of the tier. The first is its speed tier coupled with access to agility. You will probably note that the agility set doesn't run modest, instead running timid. This then allows it to outspeed adamant hawlucha, which is probably the fastest form of immediate speed control in the meta, when it has a +2 boost. But even without the boost, 110 puts iron moth among the faster mons in the meta game, tying with the lati twins and beating the base 100 speed tier that is otherwise so heavily populated. Couple this with a lack of good psychic type choice scarfers at the moment, and it's in prime position to tear apart the metagame.
The second part of this is its coverage, with energy ball perfectly complementing its stabs to hit its relevant checks within the meta game. Its natural defensive counters are ting-lu and tyranitar, both of which get 3HKOed by a specs or booster energy energy ball, or tera water gliscor trying to absorb a fiery dance, which gets OHKOed. On the scarfed set, psychic also then allows it to revenge opposing iron moths that haven't gotten an agility, along with most of the unboosted meta due to its stellar speed tier. And all of this seems all well and good, but we have Blissey now right? That can check any special threat, right?
I personally found out the hard way that Blissey cannot check iron moth. In fact, it only gets turned into set up bait as Fiery Dance can quite simply brute force through it. It doesn't even necessarily need to boost up on it, as morning sun sets can just out heal seismic toss, with its poison type preventing blissey from toxic stalling it down. The most Blissey can do is paralyse it, which does a huge part to letting teams offensively check the moth, but isn't much more than a crutch for defensive teams to briefly stop it blowing through everything. Tera dragon clefable is the only defence I've found for it on stall assuming that garganacl gets banned shortly because of course that also checks this with tera ghost, but this then requires losing your fairy, and can make your dragon match up significantly harder.
The only outwardly reliable defensive check into this gargantuan threat that I've managed to find is galarian slowking, which, with an AV set, can hard wall everything Iron Moth wants to throw out and then regenerator off the damage. Not only that, it can threaten it with an OHKO from psyshock and potentially profit off it entering the game with future sight support. However, glowking doesn't fit on every team, finding its place usually on balance and maybe specific bulky offence teams, which can leave the rest of the common styles susceptible to just being overrun by the moth.
I've found moths on most of the teams I've faced recently, and the core it can form on sun teams with torkoal and venusaur can make it very effective at wearing down or breaking through their shared checks, such as specially defensive tyranitar, blissey and glowking. I don't think I'm at the point of immediately advocating for banning this mon, it's far too early and counterplay is still being developed. But, in the current state of the meta, Iron Moth is an immense threat and requires a specific check in the teambuilder to a degree almost no other mon requires, at least in my opinion.
I'm personally happy with suspect test in NDUU, not that I care if victini is broken or balanced, I don't even plan to get reqs because NDUU ladder is so few of player.
What makes me happy in suspect test is NDUU ladder now is filled with serious competitive team that aim to get 79% to 83% GXE, not like some shit team consist of unviable mon, so laddering now is rather challenging.
The thing is, most NDUUVIC9 I met on the ladder was either HO or Stall team, I'm rare to see bulky offense or balance team in ladder, do NDUU meta is unbalanced? Which pokemon dominate the meta right now? How do you guys think?
The thing is, most NDUUVIC9 I met on the ladder was either HO or Stall team, I'm rare to see bulky offense or balance team in ladder, do NDUU meta is unbalanced? Which pokemon dominate the meta right now? How do you guys think?
This is a fair observation; in general the strongest styles at the moment are either Hyper Offence or Stall. Sun and Sand teams can also be added to this, as they wield powerful options to both outspeed and break through both these team styles. However, I don't think this necessarily makes the meta unbalanced, as while these styles are easily the strongest they don't invalidate the other styles. You can still play bulky offence and balance, they just struggle to make as much use of the most powerful options in the meta, or withstand their pressure.
It should also be noted that the upsurge in these styles could be a false positive. To get reqs you need to play a large number of battles, which means you typically want a team that falls under the category of "Brainless with a strong autopilot." Essentially, I'd rather play 10 games where I don't have to think and can win anyway than 4 where I do have to think but have a lower chance of losing. The styles that fit most easily into this definition are Hyper Offence and Stall, at least in my opinion.
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
). All 6 are just as bonkers there.
From UUBL to OU
From RU to OU
From OU to UU
From OU to UU
From OU to UU
From OU to UU
(
) From OU to UU
SWELLOW IS STILL UU???????? WHAT IN THE WORLD??????
Mons we stole from RU
Broken Bax Is Here To Stay?
New Speed Control In Town?
Another Speed Booster On The Rise?
What Is A King Without His Servants?
The Real Boomburst Sweeper?
Where's The Exterminator?
What Can't This Mon Do?
The Urshifu Clone?
A Snake In The Garden of Eden?
(use Zeraora tbh)
Mons That Dropped To RU
Was Ladder Listening To Georgebowserjr?
Going Through The Motions?
Who's Ready For Trick Room?
Dangerously Cheesy?
