Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP26 - Equilibra

[snake]

CAP26: Equilibra ○ Generation 8 Update ​

Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Equilibra update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Equilibra, please refer to this link for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until snake_rattler makes their leading post.

 

[snake]

Even though Equilibra was released relatively recently, we still need to update its movepool! Let's take a look...

Red means the move is not in SWSH (with the exception of Celebrate, see below)
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Caribolt’s Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

Level Up

Evo: Doom Desire
1: Doom Desire
1: Rapid Spin
1: Pound
1: Mud Sport
1: Mud-Slap
1: Imprison
5: Mud-Slap
10: Imprison
15: Mud Shot
20: Gyro Ball
25: Power Split
25: Guard Split
30: Mirror Shot
35: Mind Reader
40: Earth Power
45: Flash Cannon
50: Memento
50: Healing Wish
57: Earthquake
64: Destiny Bond
71: Aura Sphere
78: Pain Split
85: Perish Song

TM List

TM01: Work Up
TM10: Hidden Power
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM17: Protect
TM20: Safeguard
TM21: Frustration
TM26: Earthquake
TM27: Return
TM32: Double Team
TM37: Sandstorm
TM39: Rock Tomb
TM42: Facade
TM44: Rest
TM48: Round
TM60: Quash
TM63: Embargo
TM64: Explosion
TM67: Smart Strike
TM68: Giga Impact
TM69: Rock Polish
TM74: Gyro Ball
TM77: Psych Up
TM78: Bulldoze
TM80: Rock Slide
TM87: Swagger
TM88: Sleep Talk
TM90: Substitute
TM91: Flash Cannon
TM92: Trick Room
TM100: Confide

Tutor

Ally Switch
Drill Run
Earth Power
Gravity
Helping Hand
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Magic Room
Magnet Rise
Pain Split
Recycle
Snore
Wonder Room

Since they don't appear in SWSH, the following moves will be removed automatically: Mud Sport, Mirror Shot, Hidden Power, Frustration, Return, and Embargo.

Topics to Discuss:

1) Every Steel-type in SWSH, except Silvally-Steel, Zacian-C, and Zamazenta-C, now has access to the new tutor move Steel Beam. Out of all of CAP's Steel-types, Equilibra would be by far the best user of this move. The flavor precedent to add this move by default is rather ironclad (heh), but we also want to take into account its competitive considerations. Obviously, Steel Beam would provide a strong move to Equilibra's arsenal, but is there a strong enough reason to believe that Steel Beam would make Equilibra broken?

2) Double Team, Quash, Rock Polish, Psych Up, Swagger, Confide, Gravity, Magnet Rise, and Recycle are less competitive in nature. Should we keep some or all of these moves in the movepool? If so, where?

3) Are there any new TMs, TRs, or new moves introduced in SWSH that should be added to Equilibra's movepool? Keep in mind that these should be flavor-oriented additions.

 

[quziel]

I think its pretty unlikely that Equilibra will even run Steel Beam, let alone be broken with Steel Beam. Our closest comparison is probably to Aegislash (a very strong mon), which only runs Steel Beam on the Choice Specs set, as that's the only set that can really use it to get unique KOs, specifically hitting Mandibuzz for extremely heavy damage. While this consideration is also technically true on Equilibra, Equilibra has an alternative manner to deal with Mandibuzz; Pain Split. Furthermore, I think its pretty unlikely that Libra will ever really use Choice Specs thanks to the sheer longevity that Leftovers offers it, and how much it enjoys being able to stay healthy over a match to provide as much Rapid Spin support as possible (also due to how bad specs doom desire is).

For the reasons above, I think we should allow Steel Beam.

 

[Voltage]

I think quziel has said it best. Equilibra has a far safer hard hitting Steel move in Doom Desire, and a very solid backup steel STAB in Flash Cannon. I cannot think of a really significant set that Equilibra would run that has Steel Beam on it over either of these moves. In addition, if Libra were to ever run specs (which seems very counterintuitive IMO), Flash Cannon is a far more reliable move in the first place. I've got no other points really.

Give it Steel Beam

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

1)

I think its pretty unlikely that Equilibra will even run Steel Beam, let alone be broken with Steel Beam.

I agree with quziel for similar reasons. Equil wants to stay healthy throughout the game in order to set up Doom desire and spin as much as possible. While it can be a surprise factor for a last ditch effort, specs Equil seems like a bad idea and it already knows flash cannon.
Since I don't think Equil would be super broken with steel beam and nearly every other steel gets it, sure lets give it steel beam.

2) I don't get Magnet rise on Equil. Its not a magnet and doesn't appear to have the ability to generate electricity (unless we give it some electric moves which Im down with). But then again Steelix learns Magnet Rise (but it learns thunder fang).

3) Body Press seems like a good move flavor wise. Its a steel scale, and sometimes the scales tip to being heavy, like equal pressing itself into other things. But honestly idk what to recommend.

 

[Bughouse]

I actually think Steel Beam would be totally plausibly used on a set WITH Doom Desire, as a way to get a double nuke.

Equilibra has a number of things over Aegislash (or heck Duraludon or Lucario) in terms of using this move. First, is a much higher HP stat, so the recoil matters less. Second, Spikes immunity and Pain Split also provide other types of longevity to make the recoil matter less.

I wouldn't be so quick to say it is a mostly irrelevant addition.

 

[Reviloja753]

I don't get Magnet rise on Equil. Its not a magnet and doesn't appear to have the ability to generate electricity (unless we give it some electric moves which Im down with). But then again Steelix learns Magnet Rise (but it learns thunder fang).

As a proponent of Magnet Rise, even during Libra’s process, allow me to inform you. While this idea iirc came from me, Dogfish (I think it was him?) ended up incorporating it into his movepool, which ended up winning. The main concept behind Magnet Rise was in reference to how you often hear “all rise” when judges enter a courtroom. It was a small nod to the phrase that I feel is somewhat clever. As such, I feel Magnet Rise should be placed in Mud Sport’s spot as a heart scale/starting move. After all, level one is when our judge Pokémon “enters” their courtroom, which in this case is just the world.

Moving onto other moves I would like to discuss, the only other blue moves I personally want to keep are Gravity and Quash. The former I personally want to keep as I remember it effectively being a reference to the phrase “you may be seated”. This one is a bit tough to place, considering we have no egg moves to use, but considering how we need to drop the repeating level-up moves cough cough we could easily slot it in one of those slots. I don’t feel as passionately about Gravity than the other two moves though. Quash, however, would be malpractice to let it be removed. Quash is literally a legal term. There is no reason to let this one fall to the wayside. It would be best to place it where Mirror Shot was, as Sableye also learns Quash at level 30 this generation.

 

[MC Squared]

1) Every Steel-type in SWSH, except Silvally-Steel, Zacian-C, and Zamazenta-C, now has access to the new tutor move Steel Beam. Out of all of CAP's Steel-types, Equilibra would be by far the best user of this move. The flavor precedent to add this move by default is rather ironclad (heh), but we also want to take into account its competitive considerations. Obviously, Steel Beam would provide a strong move to Equilibra's arsenal, but is there a strong enough reason to believe that Steel Beam would make Equilibra broken?

Actually that's not correct. Zacian and Silvally CAN learn Steel Beam

 

[Talpr0ne]

I actually think Steel Beam would be totally plausibly used on a set WITH Doom Desire, as a way to get a double nuke.

Equilibra has a number of things over Aegislash (or heck Duraludon or Lucario) in terms of using this move. First, is a much higher HP stat, so the recoil matters less. Second, Spikes immunity and Pain Split also provide other types of longevity to make the recoil matter less.

I wouldn't be so quick to say it is a mostly irrelevant addition.

Steel Beam's recoil is always one half of your maximum HP, it is more akin to Mind Blown than to Head Smash in this respect. It is true that Equilibra has more bulk and therefore can survive more things after using one Steel Beam, but it will be inevitably dead regardless after using it twice. I do agree it has some competitive implications, but they aren't big enough to avoid giving it to Equilibra when it's meant to be a move that every Steel type can use. It would be like avoiding giving Draco Meteor to a Dragon type.
For the record Silvally, Zacian and Zamazenta have access to the move, the only one that can turn in a Steel type but can't use Steel Beam is Necrozma.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

While this idea iirc came from me, Dogfish (I think it was him?) ended up incorporating it into his movepool, which ended up winning. The main concept behind Magnet Rise was in reference to how you often hear “all rise” when judges enter a courtroom. It was a small nod to the phrase that I feel is somewhat clever. As such, I feel Magnet Rise should be placed in Mud Sport’s spot as a heart scale/starting move. After all, level one is when our judge Pokémon “enters” their courtroom, which in this case is just the world.

Thats really cool. Didn't really think of that at all. Then I change my mind. Equilibria should keep Magnet Rise on the basis of flavor.

 

[MC Squared]

So this is my proposed level up pool, TM, TR and Tutor list!! Bolded moves are new or newly placed moves. Of course per Gen 8 trends, repeated level up moves have been removed and I moved around the Level 10 and 15 moves

Level Up

L1: Doom Desire, Rapid Spin, Magnet Rise, Pound, Mud-Slap, Imprison
Evo.: Doom Desire
L10: Mud Shot
L15: Gravity
L20: Gyro Ball
L25: Power Split, Guard Split
L30: Quash
L35: Mind Reader
L40: Earth Power
L45: Flash Cannon
L50: Memento, Healing Wish
L57: Earthquake
L64: Destiny Bond
L71: Aura Sphere
L78: Pain Split
L85: Perish Song

TMs

TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM19: Safeguard
TM20: Self-Destruct
TM21: Rest
TM22: Rock Slide
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM32: Sandstorm
TM39: Facade
TM41: Helping Hand
TM44: Imprison
TM48: Rock Tomb
TM53: Mud Shot
TM60: Power Swap
TM61: Guard Swap
TM70: Trick Room
TM71: Wonder Room
TM72: Magic Room
TM76: Round
TM81: Bulldoze
TM96: Smart Strike
TM97: Brutal Swing

TRs

TR01: Body Slam
TR10: Earthquake
TR20: Substitute
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR31: Iron Tail
TR46: Iron Defense
TR52: Gyro Ball
TR56: Aura Sphere
TR67: Earth Power
TR70: Flash Cannon
TR72: Power Whip
TR74: Iron Head
TR78: Drill Run
TR79: Heavy Slam
TR83: Ally Switch
TR85: Work Up
TR93: Darkest Lariat
TR99: Body Press

Tutor Moves

Steel Beam

Self-Destruct is just a weaker Explosion LOL.

The reasons for Brutal Swing and Darkest Lariat are because based on its design, it reminds me of a character from the Mega Man Star Force series, Libra Scales, who can swing its scales around, and Equilibra looks like it can swing its scales around, and its Attack is very low so it won't ever use those moves. Same thing applies to Power Whip too. It can whip at the opponent with its scales.

I gave it Body Slam and Body Press because its concept is similar to Pokémon like Bronzong and Melmetal, genderless Pokémon that are based on inanimate objects. They both get either one or both of the moves.

Power Swap and Guard Swap are there because since it already gets Power Split and Guard Split, I felt that it just completed the set since the moves work similarly.

Most Steel-types have access to Heavy Slam this generation, so it clearly fit lore wise.

 

[MrPanda]

I gave it Body Slam and Body Press because its concept is similar to Pokémon like Bronzong and Melmetal, genderless Pokémon that are based on inanimate objects. They both get either one or both of the moves.

I disagree with this comparison, Bronzong and Melmetal have a more bulky appearance than Libra, as do most Steel types that learn these moves.

The same goes for Heavy Slam. Pokémon that learn this move generally have a more robust and bulky composition than Libra.

 

[MC Squared]

I disagree with this comparison, Bronzong and Melmetal have a more bulky appearance than Libra, as do most Steel types that learn these moves.

The same goes for Heavy Slam. Pokémon that learn this move generally have a more robust and bulky composition than Libra.

Regarding Heavy Slam, explain Flapple, a Pokémon that's only a foot tall and weighs only 2 pounds and it has access to it. And lots and lots of Pokémon have Body Slam. And generally Pokémon with high defenses have Body Press. It's just additional coverage, but I'll let the mods decide

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I would like to do some calcs to see if Steel Beam breaks through anything notable or if it could become an actual wallbreak because of it, but right now I am currently having a hard time believing it would want to run it over something more consistent like Flash Cannon for reliable Steel STAB, as Libra wants to sit on stuff and fire off Doom Desires and I think having to blow off half your health would compromise it. Still want to do those calcs, but currently leaning towards giving it Steel Beam.

Onto move flavorful moves I think I agree with Revi on both Magnet Rise and Quash, both being fairly important to the legal theming of Libra and have no issue with the spots mentioned.

Brutal Swing was widely available in Gen 7 yet Equilibra did not receive it so I think it should not be up for discussion as a possible addition. But considering its large scales and wide "arms" I would think Darkest Lariat would be a solid fit for Libra.

Totally against the logic presented for Body Slam and Body Press as they both actually have something to Slam and Press with, and Equilibra is really freaking small all things considered so I do not thinking it is a good fit for it to actually get it.

Regarding Heavy Slam, explain Flapple, a Pokémon that's only a foot tall and weighs only 2 pounds and it has access to it.

In this case, I think it is a reference to Newton's encounter with the apple alongside Grav Apple. Also I do not think we should be justifying weird moves by pointing out other exceptions to a norm, unless you have extremely solid flavor for why it should get it and need to exception to disprove certain universality. I'm generally still neutral on Heavy Slam tho

 

[MrPanda]

Regarding Heavy Slam, explain Flapple, a Pokémon that's only a foot tall and weighs only 2 pounds and it has access to it. And lots and lots of Pokémon have Body Slam. And generally Pokémon with high defenses have Body Press. It's just additional coverage, but I'll let the mods decide

Well, I will echo here what LucarioOfLegends said, we should not use an exceptional case as an rule to distribute moves, because always there will be an exception.

In addition, I believe that the fact that lots and lots of Pokémon have Body Slam is not a solid enough argument to give it to the Libra movepool.

And as for the Body Press, yeah, in fact the monsters which get the move, in general, have a high defense stat. But that also doesn't change the fact that many of them are big, heavy creatures.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

I would think Darkest Lariat would be a solid fit for Libra

Im imagining Equal using its scales to lariat people to death and its pretty funny.

 

[snake]

I'll be deliberating this (as well as Caribolt) on Friday hopefully, so I'm closing this for now!

 

[Birkal]

We are running on a different timeline for these final updates. As you can tell here we are going to be finishing all CAP updates TOMORROW (Friday) from 8am to midnight CST. Below is a list of every suggestion that has been made in this thread to the movepool in the OP. If you have more to suggest, please do them via post or (preferably) Discord.

>> Please join our Discord channel by clicking here. We'll be discussing these updates LIVE all day! <<

There is no more discussion to be had on Equilibra. The Update Leaders will be sharing this finalized movepool tomorrow. So instead, jump on our Discord and see what else needs to be done!

 

[cbrevan]

Thanks to feedback from our Discord, we've come to decisions over Equilibra's update movepool.

Body Slam and Steel Beam will be added to Equilibra's movepool. Body Slam will be added owing to Equilibra's considerable mass, and Steel Beam will be added due to it being a unversally known move among Steel types.

To summarize level up changes, Magnet will move from past gen tutor to the level 1 slot. Quash will move from TM to the level 30 slot.

Self-Destruct was discussed and then disallowed as the discord consensus was against adding it, citing how it would be unncessary with Explosion already in Equilibra's movepool.

Thanks to everyone who pitched in, both on here and on the Discord!

Changelog

Body Slam to TM/TR
Steel Beam to Tutor
Magnet Rise from Tutor to level 1 LU
Quash from TM to level 30 LU

 

[Birkal]

WE DID IT, WE'RE DONEZO

Level Up

Evo: Doom Desire
1 Doom Desire
1 Rapid Spin
1 Pound
1 Magnet Rise
1 Mud-Slap
1 Imprison
15 Mud Shot
20 Gyro Ball
25 Power Split
25 Guard Split
30 Quash
35 Mind Reader
40 Earth Power
45 Flash Cannon
50 Memento
50 Healing Wish
57 Earthquake
64 Destiny Bond
71 Aura Sphere
78 Pain Split
85 Perish Song

TM List

TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM32 Sandstorm
TM39 Facade
TM41 Helping Hand
TM48 Rock Tomb
TM70 Trick Room
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM76 Round
TM81 Bulldoze
TM96 Smart Strike

TR Moves

TR01 Body Slam
TR10 Earthquake
TR20 Substitute
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR31 Iron Tail
TR46 Iron Defense
TR52 Gyro Ball
TR67 Earth Power
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR74 Iron Head
TR83 Ally Switch
TR85 Work Up
TR87 Drill Run

Tutor

Steel Beam

Transfer Moves

Double Team (Gen 7 TM)
Rock Polish (Gen 7 TM)
Explosion (Gen 7 TM)
Psych Up (Gen 7 TM)
Swagger (Gen 7 TM)
Confide (Gen 7 TM)
Recycle (Gen 7 Tutor)
Gravity (Gen 7 Tutor)

 

[dhelmise]

1 - Doom Desire
1 - Rapid Spin
1 - Pound
1 - Magnet Rise
5 - Mud-Slap
10 - Imprison
15 - Mud Shot
20 - Gyro Ball
25 - Power Split
25 - Guard Split
30 - Quash
35 - Mind Reader
40 - Earth Power
45 - Flash Cannon
50 - Memento
50 - Healing Wish
57 - Earthquake
64 - Destiny Bond
71 - Aura Sphere
78 - Pain Split
85 - Perish Song
Tutor - Steel Beam
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Safeguard
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Sandstorm
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Helping Hand
TM/TR - Rock Tomb
TM/TR - Trick Room
TM/TR - Wonder Room
TM/TR - Magic Room
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Bulldoze
TM/TR - Smart Strike
TM/TR - Body Slam
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Iron Tail
TM/TR - Iron Defense
TM/TR - Gyro Ball
TM/TR - Earth Power
TM/TR - Flash Cannon
TM/TR - Iron Head
TM/TR - Ally Switch
TM/TR - Work Up
TM/TR - Drill Run