Gastrodon > Swampert?

rottingpigfetus said:
mudkip is much cuter than shellos.
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You wish.

ANYWHO...I really love Gassy. He got me through the game with Toxic/Ice Beam/Surf/Recover. And his movepool isn't bad either. But in no way does he outclass Swampert.

The problem is that for him to get out of UU, he has to be too strong, but with so many grass types and his poor speed, he can't. I'm sure that he would do great in OU, but he's not going anywhere. But thats not necessarily a bad thing. If you put him on your team, it's unexpected and tends to throw people off.
 
What tier he's in doesn't really matter. What we're discussing here is whether or not he has merit in OU. Simply being UU doesn't mean he sucks in OU.
 
Syberia said:
What tier he's in doesn't really matter. What we're discussing here is whether or not he has merit in OU. Simply being UU doesn't mean he sucks in OU.
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Well if thats the subject, then yes he has merit. But then again, most UU pokes can fill some kind of niche on an OU team.
 
Vandom said:
Well if thats the subject, then yes he has merit. But then again, most UU pokes can fill some kind of niche on an OU team.
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wise words, very true
for instance, did you know octillery is the ultimate skarm killer?
thats about the only thing it will ever kill in ou though
anyway, after reflecting, ive come to the conclusion that everyone who has posted in this thread (me included) should headbutt each other to death
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
In retrospect, perhaps the reason why you don't see people using Gastrodon, is cause of it's goal and purpose.

It's goal is to wall, or rather, since it has Recover to survive 'that' long, stall. But on a stall team, would you use Gastrodon? Or other ground types such as Hippowdon and Gliscor, or other Water types such as Milotic and Tentacruel? Surely any team that's made for the long run wouldn't want to run Swampert, as Swampert is better as a fill in the blank kind of Poke, that does it's walling, but the team is normally done in its goal.

So with that said, in the short run, Swampert is better, which pretty much everyone has agreed, but in the long run, Gastrodon is better, however, there are others better than Gastrodon for the long run.
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Am agreeing with Mop 100% here. Swampert, just mixpert even, is bringing a whole different mindset to the game.

I mean people are talking about toxic stalling with Gastrodon's defenses. When was the last time anyone tried to toxic stall with swampert? I'll admit that I haven't tried Gastrodon out much myself, but I've played with swampert and those defenses don't hold a candle to Hippowdon, Gliscor or Milotic, who by the way, all have instant recovery moves and probably even better support options than gastrodon in one way or the other.

Swampy's not a wall, and a recovery or no, I can't see a pokemon with only comperable defenses to him trying to wall. :/
 
I think this is an interesting discussion, but most of the responses have been lackluster at best. I'll attempt to do better. I use Swampert on a good number of my teams, but rarely do I find myself considering Gastrodon. Why?

Well, simply, Gastrodon cannot do what I rely on Swampert to do. I rely on Swampert to switch into dangerous Pokemon like Tyranitar and be able to deal with more or less every set that they usually run. Roar is a big part of this. Yawn simply does not cut it when you realize the majority of set-up threats in the game either hide behind Substitutes or are Sleep Talkers anyhow. Roar not only deals with these threats in a straightforward manner, but you can really rack up a lot of residual damage if your opponent can't threaten you directly. As for other utility options, Stealth Rock is a huge asset for teams that have no better candidate for it. Not that Swampert isn't a great SR user!

Let's not miss anything in the calculations here, though. Comparing the EV spreads listed in the OP, Swampert still takes everything beside Grass Knot and Low Kick better than Gastrodon can. Generally, Recover more than covers for the difference in tanking ability, but it's worth mentioning that Gastrodon does indeed take hits on both sides worse than Swampert does and can be 2HKOed in situations Swampert would not.

However, what really takes the cake here, is what Swampert can do after taking the hits you need it to. Roaring around their team has already been mentioned, but is really a huge asset when you realize how few things want to stay in on Swampert. Using the same EV spreads (The Mixpert one I use regularly), Swampert is firing off EQs from 256 Attack, vs Gastrodon's 203. That's quite a difference, as has already been explained. The real kicker for me is that Swampert learns Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump off 219 SpAtk obviously outdamages Surf from Gastrodon's 220, but even if you're using Surf the damage difference is negligible. Hydro Pump allows Swampert to severely punish physical tanks who want to come in and set up, though. Torrented Hydro Pump is scary even from a mediocre SpAtk stat, and things like Gengar risk an OHKO if they bring you below the threshold with an attack. And yes, the payoff is definitely worth the miss chance.

I definitely agree with the mindset aspect as well. Swampert is a bit more threatening in all aspects. You know you're never getting in for free because of a Recover, and Swampert is much more likely to attack as a result of that. You also will likely at some point have to play the dreadful 'Will it attack or Roar?' game, wherein you want to damage it so it stops roaring, but don't want to risk losing something if it does attack. Gastrodon just doesn't evoke anywhere near the same response, and it's not just because it's sprite is a lot less threatening!


dpffa423.png
<---- Cute but slimy

emespr260.png
<---- Clearly insane and probably going to kill you



Man, that wall-eyed look gets me every time.
 
You do have your points. Gastrodon's walling capabilities are superb with the help of Recover & Stockpile & you can choose your color of preference :P. There's some letdowns to it, though. It has no access to SR, unlike Swampert. It's PHazing isn't direct & can't ruin Subs (? correct me if Yawn goes through Subs). The low speed makes it (duh) slower even to most tanks & makes it more susceptible to Taunt.
Still, the dual-colored slug has possibilities...
 
QibingZero said:
dpffa423.png
<---- Cute but slimy

emespr260.png
<---- Clearly insane and probably going to kill you



Man, that wall-eyed look gets me every time.
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Epic. @_@

Anyhow, there has to be an actual definition to what we're trying to establish - is it who is better between the two pokemon? Then it's an unending comparison, because they each play different roles better. It would be similar to asking if one prefers Hippowdon or Rhyperior.

If, however, we are trying to establish if Gastrodon is BL material, then there would have to be an analysis about if he really does outclass fellow UU walls / tanks and the likes. Because just being "viable" in OU is not enough. Frosslass is viable in OU.
 
Gastrodon is a very usable pokemon, but its main advantage over Swampert is Recover. A pokemon that has instant recovery is better than a pokemon that doesn't. Gastrodon also has sticky hald, so his item cannot be knocked off, which is also useful. Gastrodon can curse as well, making him a good copy of Swampert who can instantly recover.
 
How about we put it this way-- if Swamp had recover, would you run it? And if you would, what would you replace with it? Keep in mind this is only for the mixed set, since that is what we are comparing gastrodon to.
 
The only real advantage Gastrodon has is access to Recover, which is far easier and more consistant to use than Swampert with Rest/Sleep Talk or Leftys/Protect. Otherwise, Swampert beats him in most other aspects.
 
Just tested Gastrodon. I can safely say that Gassy is a far better curser than Swampert ever was, though I admit, Gassy could use the Ice punch if he had it.

IMO Swampert could probably be used the UU metagame and nothing would be changed because of the already high prevalence of Grass knot/Energy Ball to hit Wishcash/Gastro/Quagsire and other bulky grounds and waters.
 
ChouToshio said:
How about we put it this way-- if Swamp had recover, would you run it? And if you would, what would you replace with it? Keep in mind this is only for the mixed set, since that is what we are comparing gastrodon to.
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Without a doubt. EQ / Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Recover. I'd miss Roar, though (on your pert, come to think of it).
 
Uh, so you basically just proved that Gastrodon is a slightly worse Swampert but with Recover. Good for you, use him in OU. No one's stopping you, and he's a pretty good Pokémon. But the only way you should move something up out of UU is if it's too good for it, which Gastrodon isn't. Jut because something is viable in OU doesn't mean it needs to be OU. Look at Lanturn, Mr. Mime, and the like. Gastrodon fits in the group of "Things that work in OU or UU", not "Things that are too good for UU".

That being said, Gastrodon is insanely cool and I totally would use him with Stockpile or something. If you don't fear Tyranitar try HP Ground on him; lots of Steels and stuff have higher Defense and Gastrodon has slightly better Special Attack to compensate for the power drop.

Oh, and Swampert would rape UU, thank you very much. Ridiculously strong STAB Earthquake, anyone?

Lyfsaho said:
Frosslass is viable in OU.
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By the way, uh, he is? What does he do better than Gengar other than Spikes?
 
260.png
<---Looks so sneaky

061.gif
<--- Pink, is this for the girls?

gastrocopy.png
<--- The boys get one too, how cool!!! It's like a mix between Lapras and Swampert. Gastrodon get's Amnesia too. (rare move, but nobody would use him for that, but that's something that Swampert's family line doesn't have.)

It's too bad Gastrodon doesn't have Quagsire ability, Maybe this Thread should have been Quagsire Versus Gastrodon. I really like Gastrodon, but Swampert is obviously better with it's stats, and third evolution, for a 2nd evolution, he's great, I'd use him anytime. Especially the blue one. and that Swampert doesn't look like it's going to kill you, it looks like it's hungry
 
Things don't have to be too strong for UU to be removed from it; they can also be used too much to be UU.
 
Wow, definitely gave me some thoughts. That's actually pretty good. And, even though Gastrodon can't hit as hard, he still is UU, and usually won't be fighting the Pokemon you listed. But, if he does....

He has recover, while Swampert doesn't. That's something that you didn't really mention that much.
 
Chris is me said:
Oh, and Swampert would rape UU, thank you very much. Ridiculously strong STAB Earthquake, anyone?
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Theorymon has been proven to fail. There are plenty of grassers that take both STABs and easily 1HKO back. Yes a swampert would be a top threat, but not a dominating one as Garchomp is in OU. IMO rain teams w/ Kabutops or Omastar are bigger threats.
 
chewy said:
Theorymon has been proven to fail. There are plenty of grassers that take both STABs and easily 1HKO back. Yes a swampert would be a top threat, but not a dominating one as Garchomp is in OU. IMO rain teams w/ Kabutops or Omastar are bigger threats.
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That's an interesting thought, and I would agree. Meganium would not be freaking out because of Swamp's ice beam (after all, it's weaker that gastro's ice beam). But whether a pokemon is overwhelming or not in UU, as Obi said though, the second way an OU poke becomes OU is by have too much useage to be called Under Used. Swampert, and more recently Tentacruel could be said to fall outside UU for that reason.
 
IIRC Gastrodon can use CounterCoat while Swampert can't...

Gastrodon is in the same egg group as wobb according to serebii dex.

In a way Gdon can act as the poor man's wobbuffet. However most people might not expect counter/coat and wont switch out and attack straight up anyway.

Also he has recover to heal off the damage from the initial hit. Oh and let's not forget that he can attack.
 
no, you don't remember correctly because swampert can indeed "countercoat" (not that it's a groundbreaking strategy on a pokemon that cant trap anyway)
 
^That would be breed for Coat pert in emerald and tutor counter for those who didn't notice. Or use Gastrodon as Swamp's pop. xD

BTW-- I think the fact that swamp almost never carries either counter or coat is a testament to how important those strategies are to this discussion.
 
According to serebii, Gastrodon beats Swampert out for base 11 hp, 7 SpA and 8 SpD. Swampert beats out Gastro for 27 base atk, 22 base def and 21 base Spe. If you really want to be pedantic about moves, Swampert gets refresh and endeavor over Gastro as well, whilst Gastro gets Memento and Natural Gift. Neither can use any of those. You can only use the pink version on shoddy :(.

Very few pokemon in UU can take surf, earthquake, ice beam and stone edge off his 110 attack and ALSO outspeed him (considering the speed of grasses in UU). If you mispredict in your opponent's vileplume, using, let's say, surf, you still take it out because you have more base speed. There's three grasses in UU that outspeed him AND have any right to have an attacking move on them (I'm looking at you jumpluff). One's never, ever used because of his movepool, genarally used in sun, and the third's meganium. Considering the first two can't take a hit, do you want to make every UU team have meganium. Actually, very few pokemon in UU will ever be seen with grass moves AND outspeed swammy. In addition to the first three; Ninetales and Phione I believe. And some random choice specs users without anything better to do with their move slots (note that laturn with it's pretty average SpA for UU only 2HKOs swammy with HP grass).

On the upside for Gastrodon, no-one's ever going to ask 'Do you liek shellosz?', are they?
 
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