Fur Coat

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ZhengTann

ZhengTann

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Please read through Fur Coat discussion on page 48 of Feedback thread to get some background.

As it stands, we have all sorts of in-ASB implementation when it comes to doubling/halving something. See Huge/Pure Power, Multiscale, Adaptability, and the upcoming Fluffy. However, this thread's topic focuses on
Fur Coat said:
This Pokemon's thick fur coat reduces the BAP of all incoming physical attacks by three (3).
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So, to make this State-of-the-Game worthy, let's kick off with the following questions:
  • What other implementations make the cut as possible alternatives in-ASB?
  • How will it affect it's current (only) user, Furfrou?
  • How else will it shake up the metagame, considering Trace and co.?
  • Do we want to align Fur Coat's in-ASB implementation to other mechanics, or vice versa? How?
I'll try to track discussion in the OP. EDIT: Slate here (post #15)!

Fire away ^_^
 
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Don't forget water bubble and stakeout.

I just think that if H/P Power have copying limitations, it would be best for that to be uniform. Remove those, or add it to other places.
 
Uhm, let's refrain from discussing any of the new Gen 7 Abilities just yet. If possible, let's hash out the 5 Abilities that we have by Gen 6, so that we can use this discussion as a cornerstone to discuss the newfangled ones when the State of the Game thread comes up. Attaching an IRC log below:
14:52 <•ZtheCloud> Who's the one wanting to buff Fur Coat again?
…… …… ……
14:53 <•dogfish44> ZtheCloud: I didn't propose it, bu I support moving it to be a huge power clone
14:53 <•ZtheCloud> I suppose that would be a nice compromise.
14:54 <•ZtheCloud> !asbstats furfrou
14:54 <•ZtheCloud> We've allowed Dragonite to keep Multiscale, after all.
14:55 <•ZtheCloud> Going one step further and giving Furfrou exactly what it had in-game shouldn't be too OP.... right?
14:56 <•ZtheCloud> Neutral Conkeldurr SF LO Hammer Arm vs Neutral Furfrou w/ super Fur Coat:
14:57 <•ZtheCloud> @calc (10+3+2+3+9-3)*1.5/2
14:57 <•ASBot> 18.0
14:57 <•Texas> lol gg
14:57 <•Texas> what does conkeldurr focus blast do
…… …... …….
14:58 <•ZtheCloud> Neutral Conkeldurr SF LO Focus Blast vs Neutral Everstone Furfrou:
14:58 <•ZtheCloud> @calc (12+3+2+3+3-6)*1.5
14:58 <•ASBot> 25.5
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"Huge/Pure Power, Multiscale, Adaptability, and the upcoming Fluffy." (add Fur Coat)

Fun Fact: Fur Coat is not Furfrou exclusive anymore. Persian-A has it.

Going 1 by 1 here.

Huge/Pure Power: By far the closest to what Fur Coat does, since it also doubles the stat. Thus, it should go without saying that I support the option of making Fur Coat a clone of these.

Multiscale: Yeah its a ridiculous halving effect, but it can be played around, and only exists while HP is full at the start of a round, so it usually only happens once per match and can be played around.

Adaptability: Effectively just a 1.33× multiplier, so +2 makes sense for its bonus.

Fluffy: I would not put Fluffy on the same page as Fur Coat honestly. Fur Coat is a total stat change, Fluffy is just a move modifier. For example, contact moves used by Decidueye are not affected by this ability, since Long Reach forces them to be non-contact.
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Following from the above, I think the option to go with Fur Coat is to clone Huge/Pure Power, and change each instance of Attack to Defense, including the anti-cloning mechanisms
 
Fluffy: I would not put Fluffy on the same page as Fur Coat honestly. Fur Coat is a total stat change, Fluffy is just a move modifier. For example, contact moves used by Decidueye are not affected by this ability, since Long Reach forces them to be non-contact.
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Fur Coat: Halves the damage from physical moves.
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The above is why I should actually do research before posting. From all the discussion I thought Fur Coat was a Huge Power clone for Defense. On that note, treat Fluffy and Fur Coat the same, but different from Huge/Pure Power
 
Okay, trawling through veekun (kinda like what Jayy did up there, I think - props if I thought right), it turns out:
  1. Huge/Pure Power: Doubles a stat (Attack) in-catridge. Increments stats in-ASB.
  2. Adaptability: Turns STAB from 1.5x damage to 2x damage in-catridge. Turns STAB from +3 to +5 in-ASB.
  3. Multiscale: Halves incoming damage only if full HP in-catridge. Halves incoming damage only if full HP at start of round in-ASB.
  4. Fur Coat: Halves incoming physical attack damage in-catridge. -3 BAP to physical attacks in-ASB.
so.... #1 seem okay do to being unique, but other than that we've got 3 different interpretations of "what to do with a 2?"

Normally I'm a "if it ain't broke don't bother" guy - I'm not the guy who'd trawl through the DAT nitpicking or post every ant-sized matter on Feedback. But if you want a Discussion thread, you're gonna get it, and be damned if I'm not seeing it to closure.

If I can fiat stuff (I don't), I'd go for consistency. 1.5x and 1.3x (Life Orb) in-catridge has historically been +3 in-ASB. Multiscale had always been halving final damage. Then Fur Coat was introduced in Gen 6 and was ignored. Now that it was brought up, I'd suggest either:
  • Turning all 2x or 0.5x damage (not BAP) modifiers from Abilities and Items in-catridge into +5 or -5 BAP modifiers in-ASB. (aka change Multiscale)
  • Turning all 2x or 0.5x damage (not BAP) modifiers from Abilities and Items in-catridge into the same in-ASB. (aka change Fur Coat and possibly Adaptability)
  • Do nothing because either option opens up a whole can of worms (see Expert Belt, Life Orb, and Sheer Force, even though they have different multipliers).
  • Give each Ability a unique effect.
What could go wrong happen?
  • I'd like to say that -5 BAP is only better when incoming attacks have lower BAP (think Icy Wind instead of Ice Beam, for example). So if we go down this route, we may essentially force a high BAP damage race between Multiscale-mons and its opponents instead of tactical tech moves.
  • Halving damage on the other hand, gives a lot of leeway. Won't change anything on Multiscale-mons, but there's going to be a pain to be had versus Fur Coat mons - especially when Furfrou can get R4 SpDef with an item and thus become a veritable wall.
  • Doing nothing changes nothing.
  • Turning Fur Coat into a Huge Power clone in-ASB (what was suggested) is similar to -5 BAP. Except this time Multiscale is not affected so Dragonite fetishes won't be offended.
Or I could just be stupid wrong on all four accounts.
Again, for consistency's sake, and for the fact that consistency in this case seemingly does not overpower any mechanics to the point of breaking the game, I'd love to -5 BAP.
 
I'm going to err on the side of the not-so-consistent side and say leave it as is.

Reasoning:
- The only "x2" above is actually more of a x1.33 (repeating, Adaptability [2/1.5 = 1.33]) effect. Which actually is more relatable to Sheer Force (x1.3 --> +2), which is why Adaptability is a +2 boost.
- Life Orb is x1.3 --> +3 to compensate for the shitty recoil that it is forced to have.
- I don't like changing things that really don't matter. Like, we could make this more consistent so to speak, but with what? There is no model for x2/x0.5, and no reason to adjust this one when there actually is not a good model to change it based on.
 
ZhengTann said:
Turning all 2x or 0.5x damage (not BAP) modifiers from Abilities and Items in-catridge into +5 or -5 BAP modifiers in-ASB. (aka change Multiscale)
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Texas vehemently opposed this when it was proposed on IRC, as did others, including me, though less vehemently. Dragonite is good, sure, but it's not so good as to need a nerf directed solely at it. Furfrou and Persian-A, meanwhile, are really bad and (imo) deserve a buff to their shared ability. I say make Fur Coat (and Fluffy while we're at it) just give -5 BAP and be done with it.
 
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I would be entirely fine with either a -5 or a Huge Power boost, for minor reasons.
 
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TBH I would be all for halving damage since neither Furfrou nor Persian have good offenses, good offensive movepool nor reliable recovery to abuse the effect. At the worst case (looking at HJK from a Rank 5 STAB) the effect of Fur Coat would be the roughly the same as if those two mons had a Rank 10 Def, which when you see all it's other stats being so low is not outside of the ordinary for such pokemon (See Aggron, Steelix, Avalugg, etc...). I rather give them a substantial buff considering the non-existent amount of either regular Persian or Furfrous in ASB. Something I don't see changing even with the proposed -5 BAP increase.

The one pokemon that actually bothers me though is Bewear, as its stats are actually quite good already, 120 HP & natural Rank 5 HP (with Rank 3 Def unlike the other two) so in that case I would be all up for "only" a -5 BP reduction.
 
Gerard said:
At the worst case (looking at HJK from a Rank 5 STAB) the effect of Fur Coat would be the roughly the same as if those two mons had a Rank 10 Def, which when you see all it's other stats being so low is not outside of the ordinary for such pokemon (See Aggron, Steelix, Avalugg, etc...).
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Actually, making Fur Coat a defensive Huge Power would more closely match ingame; ingame Furfrou and Persian-A have an effective 138 base defense at level 100 with 31 IVs and 0 EVs. Making Fur Coat a defensive Huge Power would give Furfrou and Persian-A a rank 5 in Defense, which matches ingame. Making Fur Coat -5 BAP would give them only a -0.5 BAP damage reduction compared to +3 rank, but it's still not too bad.

On the subject of Bewear, making Fluffy give -5 BAP would actually be weaker than its ingame equivalent; ingame Bewear has an effective 178 defense against contact moves (again, lv100, 31 IVs, 0 EVs); this translates to rank 8 defense in ASB; making Fluffy give -5 BAP would be weaker than its ingame equivalent on physical contact moves, giving Bewear and effective 6.333... defense rank. Ingame can handle effective base 178 def. Bewear; there's no reason we won't be able to handle effective R6 def. Bewear. Plus the Fire weakness that Fluffy gives hurts more in ASB than it does ingame due to Pokemon being able to have their entire movepools.
 
If we are really going to buff Fur Coat, just make it halve the BAP of Physical Attacks used against ala Reflect. Fur Coat is basically Reflect in Ability form ingame (if Bulbapedia is to be believed) and halving BAP like Reflect is a nice compromise between the kinda weak damage reduction of its current effect, and Multiscale (which is absolutely balanced in ASB because it only lasts a turn at most and can be easily be played around), but permanent.
 
Alright, blanket slating because I have no idea which suggestion gets popular vote at a glance:
slate said:
What to do with Fur Coat?
a) -5 BAP
b) +1 Rank to Defense per evolution stage, up to +3 for Fully-Evolved Pokemons
c) 0.5x final damage on all physical attacks
d) 0.5x BAP on all physical attacks
d) Do nothing
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Sending to Voting in 24 hours. EDIT: Sent and locking this thread.
 
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