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I really loved watching FFA content on YouTube and I am beyond excited the format is finally going to be implemented onto Pokemon Showdown. I think this metagame has a lot of potential, as not only is there this complex competitive format where you have to think about putting yourself in a position to win, but your three different opponents with three different mindsets of what they have in the back versus what Pokemon have been revealed. Its also a very social-heavy metagame, and I think especially when we get to the point where we can build our own teams that only going to escalate.
One of the most important factors I think people should consider is making yourself non-threatening, and that definitely starts in the teambuilder. I could totally choose to bring Lando-T, Heatran, Zapdos-G, etc. I might not get taken out first, but I'm definitely putting myself out there as more threatening, and more open to getting triple-attacked. Or I could dive headlong into the treasure trove of underrated lower-tier gems like Mesprit, Scrafty, Flygon, Arcanine, etc. and still retain an offensive structure that, at least for me, has the most success while maintaining a low profile. Being on or as close to par with your opponents with the number of Pokemon you have remaining is also something important to take note of. One opponent might have something that is immediately threatening to the Pokemon you currently have out, but if its like a lopsided scenario, something like a 5-3-2-2 scenario, then its important to point out "hey, person XYZ has 5 mons" while you formulate a gameplan.
Overall, very excited for when we can build our own teams; I do somewhat question that 6v6v6v6 is better than 3v3v3v3, as games get dragged out too long, but it'll be enjoyable nonetheless.
I'm very curious about this format. I've been enjoying the Free-For-All Random Battle lately and am looking forward to a format where we can bring our own teams. I am concerned that it is last-mon-standing like FFA Random Battle, which could get very stally with people bringing stuff like regenerator cores. Battle Royale went with a KO-based system to avoid this problem, and I think that might be prudent here.
I'm very curious about this format. I've been enjoying the Free-For-All Random Battle lately and am looking forward to a format where we can bring our own teams. I am concerned that it is last-mon-standing like FFA Random Battle, which could get very stally with people bringing stuff like regenerator cores. Battle Royale went with a KO-based system to avoid this problem, and I think that might be prudent here.
The problem with that is Regenerator cores can be beaten by multiple people attacking your Pokemon if they realize you're constantly regaining health. Also many people did NOT like Battle Royale's point system.
Stall really has a massive advantage in this meta xD People like to target Pokemons that are threatening to their own pokemons, making stall pokemons pretty much safe all the time unless they really outnumber the other players. I would like to specifically mention Porygon 2, one of the pokemons that is extremely bulky while it does not taunt other players at all.
Sure, any strategy in a FFA will lose if everyone gangs up on you. But if that's what's necessary to beat a regenerator core then it's going to be a powerful meta strategy, and what happens if you have two or three people playing that? You're going to get a really stally game with little progress.
I'd also add you wouldn't bring a full team of 6 stall pokemon, you'd still bring 1 or 2 strong wallbreakers to clean up in the late-game.
Sure, any strategy in a FFA will lose if everyone gangs up on you. But if that's what's necessary to beat a regenerator core then it's going to be a powerful meta strategy, and what happens if you have two or three people playing that? You're going to get a really stally game with little progress.
I'd also add you wouldn't bring a full team of 6 stall pokemon, you'd still bring 1 or 2 strong wallbreakers to clean up in the late-game.
Well yeah almost any strategy can be beaten if everyone starts attacking you instead.
While there is still skill involved sometimes FFA's are going to boil down to a bit of a game of chance for some players, and while people like to attack really strong threats, there's always going to be those people who will start to focus down anyone who has more Pokemon remaining. Stall can be good yes and may make games take a long time, but I don't think in an FFA format any strategy is going to be fullproof and stall already prolongs games.
This isn't even counting people who will attack stall teams just because they are stall. (I know that is not necessarily conducive to winning, but some people are that spiteful.)
you might want to ban imprison and protect being on the same set bc that could absolutely cripple an entire field and we could end up with a meta that would be all about who can get up an imprison first
you might want to ban imprison and protect being on the same set bc that could absolutely cripple an entire field and we could end up with a meta that would be all about who can get up an imprison first
Within the next 24 hours, an unrated Free-For-All ladder will be live on PS! It is unrated because we still haven't figured out how to distribute points for a win/loss in FFA on the ladder.
Another note: It is only available on the ladder, as we are currently waiting for client support for non-random Free-For-All challenges (teams etc). It is unavailable as a tournament format for the same reason.
While there's still quite a few kinks to work out, this will hopefully encourage some metagame development and more exploration overall!
If it missed or was blocked by Protect then no it still does 50%, but if it only hits one opponent because all the other targets are KO'd so there's only one target left on the field then it does 100%.
Within the next 24 hours, an unrated Free-For-All ladder will be live on PS! It is unrated because we still haven't figured out how to distribute points for a win/loss in FFA on the ladder.
Another note: It is only available on the ladder, as we are currently waiting for client support for non-random Free-For-All challenges (teams etc). It is unavailable as a tournament format for the same reason.
While there's still quite a few kinks to work out, this will hopefully encourage some metagame development and more exploration overall!
Built a couple of teams and figured I should share them. DISCLAIMER: These are teams I built with 0 experience in the meta (like pretty much everyone else) and are primarily based off of theorymonning so I could have things to test on the [unrated] ladder, so don't expect to be able to load them up and just start winning games right off the bat. My hope is that sharing teams will help people see what kinds of ideas are being tested and help the meta develop :]
Teambuilding Ideas/Opinions
Preface: if you disagree with any of what I'm saying, that's great! It would be nice to see what other people think about things and discuss from there, so any and all criticism/discussion is welcome :]
For anyone that's having trouble with cohesion of ideas in the teambuilder, a basic guideline (s/o to zeefable for the tip) for making a team is to try and cover these facets of a team at least once:
hazards -> hazard control -> spread user -> bulky attacker
Hazards: The reasoning here is largely the same as it would be in singles, but with some obvious nuances. In a format like FFA where opponents are prone to using spread moves and piling on damage onto the same target, it's very relevant to be able to punish repeated switchins relatively for free. Hazards also automatically go up on the field for every remaining opponent, so it's triple the impact for this reason: if they want to get rid of them at any point in the match, they have to give up a turn to be vulnerable and risk leaving openings for everyone else to take advantage of. The impact of Stealth Rock/Spikes is probably obvious, but I don't think Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web should be underrated. People are generally less likely to opt for clerics because so much focused is being placed on trying to beat down other teams, so when something is affected by tspikes it's often for the remainder of the game. That consistent source of damage-over-time along with even 50% reduced spread moves will add up over time, and in the case of Pokemon like Zygarde who favor using moves like Substitute and Protect, it can be very easy to just set up tspikes and watch opposing teams crumble around you. Sticky Web is probably the harshest form of speed control available, but I personally have not seen many attempts to take advantage of it so I only have ideas about it in theory. My thinking is that something like Galvantula which already gets Electroweb (-1 speed to all targets + spread move) can harass faster threats with webs and then give slightly slower, bulkier builds a chance to shine. For example, I imagine it would be significantly tougher to stop something like Eruption Heatran with all of your speed control crippled.
Hazard control: For the most part this is just common sense, really. If you don't want to autolose to hazards being set up on your side, it's pretty much mandatory to have some form of hazard removal/control. Personally, I think Rapid Spin is significantly better at this than Defog in FFA. Primarily, defogging away hazards for the opponent is counterintuitive in a format where you want to be able to apply pressure to as many threats as possible. Every time you defog, you're basically resetting all of your own hazard progress versus the target. Additionally, it's worth considering the big picture: for example, if one of the opponents sets up Toxic Spikes and they're strong versus the opponent you target but your own team is largely unaffected by them, using defog means you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to take advantage of another person's hazards. There are a lot of big picture situations like this in FFA that I think will become commonplace to keep in mind moving forward.
Spread user: This just means having at least one Pokemon with a good spread move. readytolose did a nice job of outlining some relevant spread moves + users in their post here, which is worth checking out. The nice thing about spread moves is that they enable progress versus all three opponents, meaning that in the right situations using a spread move can either score multiple knockouts in one turn, or even confirm the knockout for an opponent. An example of what I mean is a situation where opponent 1 attacks opponent 2 with a single target move, and I use Earthquake. It's possible that the single target move doesn't quite finish off opponent 2, but because I use Earthquake I get to both knockout their Pokemon and deal damage to opponent 1 (hopefully that wasn't too confusing). Whether they're being used after boosting an attacking stat or just for spammable coverage, spread moves are always a useful tool to have.
Bulky Attacker: Whether it's in the teambuilder or while actively playing a game, something every FFA player will inevitably have to accept is that barring protection moves/substitute, there will rarely ever be such a thing as a completely free turn. This means that in any given teambuilding process, one should always consider two possibilities: 1. being targeted by more than one player 2. being targeted by the same player(s) several turns in a row. As such, an overreliance on frail [offensive] Pokemon or setup sweepers in general can lead to one having repeatedly disappointing experiences. Whenever possible, it's worth fitting in bulky attackers that you know can take a hit [or two, or three] if need be while you try and set up a better position for yourself. A good example of this is Kyurem-Black, who has such an incredible attack stat of 170 that it can actually opt to run most of its EVs in HP instead. This means that while it's certainly a lot weaker than it would be when running max attack, it's actually more likely to be able to consistently get set up with Dragon Dance and start dealing damage. In essence, don't tunnel-vision on trying to stack/spam setup sweepers! There will always be a chance that your cleaner gets targeted mid-setup, and nothing is more disappointing than a Pokemon getting dismantled just one turn after being sent out. Lastly, it's also my opinion that setup moves shouldn't be overrated as a whole. Sure, a +2 in attack/special attack is nice, but when using those things it's viable to ask oneself if that setup move can be replaced by either another attack to offer more coverage, or in some cases a status move for utility. An easy way to look at this perspective is to consider that a Swords Dance does nothing for an entire turn and can make your Pokemon a huge target, but clicking Fire Blast is immediate damage that might go a long way and result in a knockout in conjunction with attacks from your other opponents--obviously not always the case, but definitely relevant enough to keep in mind.
Teams
Double Dragon Screens
With inspiration from a team passed to me by zeefable, I decided to try my hand at making something that takes advantage of Tailwind/Screens/Stealth Rock Mew + Kyurem-Black, which seems like an incredible combination (especially for cleaning up games) in general. The rest of the team is just me trying to account for things I think are at least somewhat relevant right now. Dragapult is my speed control option with Wisp as the last move in case a [physical] setup sweeper like opposing Kyurem or possibly even Zygarde are getting out of hand, with Rotom-Heat mainly to deal with eruption Pokemon while offering an actual ground resist. Next, for hazard control I opted for Regieleki fairly simple reasons: it's fast and gets Electroweb, but just as importantly with Magnet + Transistor its Volt Switches are strong and help to bring in the more offensive threats. I know for a fact that you're looking at the last mon wondering what it does, but to be real GSlowbro is just there to absorb Toxic Spikes and maintain a cheese factor with Quick Draw. Psychic/Poison is also not a terrible defensive typing either, and it enables gbro to chip things down with fire blast + shell side arm [poisons] while not looking like all that much of a threat. I opted for Future Sight over a regular Psychic move because I learned that Future Sight will say that your Pokemon forsees an attack, but won't tell anyone who's actually being targeted by it. This allows the user the chance to multi task by marking an opponent for damage two turns later, then focusing attention on something else if need be; it can also help with mindgames by forcing opponents to consider the possibility that something on their team might end up eating a Future Sight.
Triple Dragon + Toxic Spikes
As you can see here, all I did was rinse and repeat with Dragapult + Regieleki and convert my defensive sets to offensive ones. Lando-T is cool in singles as a suicide lead that threatens Stealth Rock + Earthquake, so I tried to convert that to FFA as best as I could. I actually had Swords Dance on it initially, but after discussion concluded that it's probably unreasonable to expect that in a 4 person FFA, a lando will be able to get up rocks, swords dance, and put in work with its attacks, so I opted for more coverage over an attempt at setting up. I also didn't include Explosion because realistically, the more turns lando can stay on the field and click attacks--especially Earthquake, since that hits everything--the better things will be for me in the long term of a game. Another idea I experimented with here is that of Zygarde + Toxic Spikes, with Naganadel as an offensive tspikes setter who gives up Nasty Plot for the hazard pressure. In practice, I found that I was never really getting chances to Nasty Plot, so the slot was going unusued in game after game. Realizing this, I decided to opt for tspikes since it guarantees progress in situations where an attacking move might not do the job, and forces opponents to consider trying to get in their hazard control. The idea with this is that if you can get up tspikes and sub up with Zygarde, it's honestly very easy to just marinate and watch other teams get worn down. Coil is there to beef up defensive capabilities since speed isn't really a priority with this set, and has 112 speed EVs to outspeed modest heatran so that tarrows always goes first versus it (I threw the rest into attack, you can do whatever you want with this if you calc and find something better). The main reason I wasn't afraid to run three Dragon-types here is that if you really think about it, with would-be horrifying things like Magearna and Zacian-Crowned gone, Fairy-types aren't the most terrifying thing ever (Clefable, Sylveon, Nintetales-Alola and co. are fairly manageable in practice), and more often than not you can fit in coverage to hit them anyway (Icicle Spear, TArrows, and Sludge Wave all do the job when accounting for damage from other players as well). As for the Genesect, the team felt incomplete without a steel-type to help deal with Fairy moves, and I figured iron head spam or even just a rogue explosion can be pretty nice to wear down opposing teams or straight up eliminate huge threats on the spot.
Feel free to use my teams if they catch your interest; after all, I'm putting them out there for a reason!
Defog only removes hazards form your side of the field and the targeted opponent's side of the field, meaning hazards will remain on the other two sides. I actually saw someone take advantage of this where they Defogged on a player that was down to his last Pokemon while leaving hazards on the other three sides of the field.
I don't think hazard control is necessary per-say, and that you can get by just by making your team resilient to hazard damage. I haven't seen very much Knock Off so I think HDB are pretty good, and there are lots of great pokemon in this meta that don't care about hazards (Corviknight is absolutely excellent). However, since there isn't a ladder a lot of the teams I've been facing have been meme teams (like the one guy who just clicked Final Gambit until he was out of Pokemon) so it's hard to stress test just how far you can go.
Defog only removes hazards form your side of the field and the targeted opponent's side of the field, meaning hazards will remain on the other two sides. I actually saw someone take advantage of this where they Defogged on a player that was down to his last Pokemon while leaving hazards on the other three sides of the field.
I don't think hazard control is necessary per-say, and that you can get by just by making your team resilient to hazard damage. I haven't seen very much Knock Off so I think HDB are pretty good, and there are lots of great pokemon in this meta that don't care about hazards (Corviknight is absolutely excellent). However, since there isn't a ladder a lot of the teams I've been facing have been meme teams (like the one guy who just clicked Final Gambit until he was out of Pokemon) so it's hard to stress test just how far you can go.
Yeah that's true, missed fixing that when I went through to edit my post earlier--good catch :P
Personally, I think hazard control options are generally really good because things like Kyurem prefer lefties -> HDB, but they're still weak to hazards. It just helps a lot when trying to run offensive stuff that's weak to them, from what I can see
Here's a stall team I've been having a lot of success with. As I mentioned earlier I have a hard time stress testing these things since a lot of the teams you meet up with are meme teams, but at least in that context this team is really hard to crack and can outlast the patience of the other players to cooperate to bring you down.
The general idea is to use the Toxapex/Chansey/Hippowdon/Zapdos core to outlast the other teams, then clean up with either Iron Defense Corviknight or Calm Mind Clefable. There are still some things I'm unsure about on this team; I'd really love to fit Protect onto Zapdos and Haze on Toxapex but I really can't justify dropping any of the other moves. Toxapex is incredibly hard to KO and keeps Toxic Spikes on the field more reliably than any other setter could hope to. Knock Off can remove leftovers, which ruins a lot of Pokemon that rely on leftovers plus protect as their recovery. It also can remove Toxic Spikes from your side of the field very effectively. I originally had Toxic on Chansey, but I found enemies that just randomly had Toxic were ruining Hippo and Zapdos so I put on Heal Bell and didn't look back. It doesn't get used every game, but when it does come up it is crucial. Hippowdon's job is to set sandstorm, which racks up a lot of passive damage. Earthquake is nice for some spread damage and I need Toxic somewhere so Hippo gets it. Zapdos is our hazard remover and also one of the few offensive threats I'll bring out, with Heat Wave and Discharge being great ways to rack up damage. While they are meant to be your win-cons, Clefable and Corviknight can absolutely put in work throughout the match. Pressure is very important on Corviknight and Zapdos; you will often be under attack from multiple enemies and cannot hit back, and with the combination of smart switches, Protect, and Pressure you can PP stall out a determined assault.
Specifically with regards to Defog, I haven't had any issues with removing hazards from the opponent's side of the field. Oftentimes other people will be running Rapid Spin or Defog of their own, and there will be a side of the field you can Defog without removing any hazards for them. Alternatively someone might be losing and it's not a big deal to alleviate the pressure on them. By and large I've found that getting an opening to Defog is the bigger issue, as every turn you aren't recovering or protecting or switching into something you risk taking a big hit (and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, people do gang up on the stall player... it just doesn't usually work because you will outlast them)
Hazards are strong since they can affect all your foes. However, there are opportunity costs associated. Say for example one of your opponents sets up Stealth Rock. Now if you go for Stealth Rock of your own, it only gets set up against one of your opponents instead of all three.
I take it Teeter Dance still isn't viable? I was also wondering your reasoning for preferring Misty Explosion over Pixilate Hyper Voice for Sylveon.
How many spread moves should you be looking to run? Unless you're Zygarde, in which case you have several signature spread moves to choose from, an annoyingly large number of powerful spread moves seem to be signature moves for some reason... it seems that the spread moves with the best distribution and power are Dazzling Gleam, Earthquake, Heat Wave, Hyper Voice, Rock Slide, Sludge Wave and Surf.
No, Confusion is cured by switching and ever since generation 7 nerfed confusion you're more likely to snap out of it than you are to hurt yourself. As with anything RNG-based it can work, but it's just too inconsistent to be a good idea. The only time I ever saw someone spamming teeter dance it did nothing of consequence. Discharge to spread Paralysis is much better as it's permanent and can result in more lost turns, plus you get some chip damage and Discharge has much better distribution than Teeter Dance to begin with.
I've seen lots of people try to use Explosion and it very rarely achieves anything. I don't think it's worth a moveslot, and Misty Explosion is just a worse Explosion with a different type.
I'm not sure what to think about spread moves yet. They are very good at quickly racking up lots of damage across all your rivals, but at the same time the individual damage is quite low and that can be a rather severe liability. Defensive threats can recover off that damage quite easily, and you can't focus down offensive threats. I don't think spread moves are bad, but I wouldn't go overboard with them.
Will there be an AG Free For All format? Me and my friends want to fuck around with all the pokemon unrestricted and in particular I was saddened to learn I couldn't use moody entrainment octillery.
Mew @ Leftovers / Sitrus Berry / Lum Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Body Press / Protect
I think cosmic power has a pretty huge potential in ffa, at least on the currently unsuspecting ladder. By having it on a mon that poses a low "immediate threat level" like mew, it's pretty easy to set it off somewhere in the mid game and then actually steamroll the reminder of the game. I don't know how relevant status moves will be once challenge meta will start, but rn it is more than a half-decent strat and fills in the role of "Bulky Attacker" quite nicely. Other cool users of Cosmic Power include Necrozma and Xatu if you really hate taunt i guess.
Defensive setup is really good in this meta and any team is well-served by having a defensive win condition like this. Stored Power is nice since it nukes the most common Haze user in Toxapex, and Dark-types aren't particularly common in my experience and few of them have reliable recovery anyways so they often don't make it to the end-game. I do think Calm Mind is much better than Stored Power since it beats many things that Stored Power does not and becomes threatening with much less setup, but if you're unprepared you can absolutely get destroyed by either.
I do think it's clear that defensive threats need to be prepared for, moreso even than offensive ones. Big offensive powerhouses can be scary for a few turns, but they tend to get either worn down or focused down so you really don't need to bring specific precautions. People bringing teams full of offensive threats often do worse than meme teams because they quickly burn out and are down to their last Pokemon when everyone else is on 4 or 5. The win conditions that are hard to stop are the ones that set up so they're hard to bring down, so you absolutely need to be ready to stop these. A quick and easy catch-all is Scarf Trick; not only does it ruin most defensive setups, it also can ruin a defensive pokemon like Chansey or Toxapex (and stealing Sludge isn't bad, since that just lets you ruin something else by tricking it onto another side of the field)
I have been experimenting with anti-stall tech as it's pretty clear that's the direction the meta is going to head. I'm particularly interested in trapping moves, as most defensive cores rely heavily on switching so they don't present a sitting target. If you use Block of Whirlpool then they become very vulnerable. Take it one step further and you can use Perish Song to remove threats. Sample set:
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Rest/Seismic Toss
I'm not sure if it's the best Perish Trapper; I do feel the lack of reliable recovery and the fact that Huge Power Azumarill is scary works against it, but it seems very workable. Unfortunately it rarely gets a chance to get off a second trap; even with Rest and Heal Bell support getting Azumarill back into position to do it again is tricky to pull off. Normally trading 1 for 1 is very bad in this meta, but if you can surgically remove something like a Toxapex that's a different story. And I think the more passive the opposing teams are, the better this gets. Another candidate I've been working with is Altaria (with Fire Spin instead of Whirlpool), which has slightly better defensive stats, status recovery in Natural Cure, and reliable recovery in Roost. However, it has worse defensive typing than Azumarill.
And to be clear, this was a match-up win. Nojaa played the situation incredibly well. I think this replay does demonstrate part of the problem with the match-making in general, as most teams just don't have the staying power to make it to the end-game. It was essentially a 78 turn 1v1 with a few distractions for the first 25 turns. I'm actually really excited to see what this will look like with 4 well-built meta teams, and as I demonstrate you can't just bring passive full stall and expect to win against someone who brings dedicated anti-stall tech.
So these are clearly not the best users of Psych Up, nor are these probably the best sets for said users anyway. If you're looking to run the best possible team with the best possible mons, you'll want to run something other than what I put here. I get more enjoyment out of running things that are clearly suboptimal, but they're so gimmicky and fun that the opponents may leave you alive and you'll win anyway.
Psych Up + Stored Power is an excellent way to countersweep a defensive wall. I shouldn't have to explain why, really. In one turn you get to do what one of your opponents just spent sometimes 6+ turns doing. That's insanely good value!
