They're not much of a discussion about it right now. I'm just expressing my honest opinion about the move, though this talk about using it in LC has got me interesting. Do anyone believe it would have more use there than in Standard?
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Foul Play
- Thread starter Emperor
- Start date
- Status
Because the stats in LC are smaller, many pokemon boost with DD/SD/whatever else, so if Houndour, Meowth or Stunky (all great LC Pokemon to begin with) can pull one off while they SD up (Meowth has enough speed to outrun many enemies if it switches in on an SD and OHKO). It will probably grow in popularity there because in Standard there are other better options and often less predictable stat boosts. Foul Play will end up as a premier option to shut down Attack-boosting Pokemon if it gains popularity, and its users are all fast enough to outru many of these with a Scarf or Speed boost.
Trickery just struck me as a move that's so much better than Punishment.
And somebody mentioned Murkrow - didn't even think of it! With Roost, it can pull off the same thing as Sableye, though in this case its weaknesses become a bit more volatile throughout the match. It's not a superior alternative, since Evo stone always means a lack of another handy item, but it's an idea. With access to Mirror Move, Thunder Wave, Psycho Shift and other strategies, it makes a better user than Leopardus (asides as a user of Encore, of course).
And somebody mentioned Murkrow - didn't even think of it! With Roost, it can pull off the same thing as Sableye, though in this case its weaknesses become a bit more volatile throughout the match. It's not a superior alternative, since Evo stone always means a lack of another handy item, but it's an idea. With access to Mirror Move, Thunder Wave, Psycho Shift and other strategies, it makes a better user than Leopardus (asides as a user of Encore, of course).
This is by no means exciting but it shows off the move:
Start of turn 9
Altair used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latias lost 55% of its health!
The foe's Latias used Dragon Pulse!
A critical hit!
Altair lost 99 HP! (31% of its health)
Altair fainted!
The foe's Latias restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Denizen sent out Lyra! (Sableye)
Start of turn 10
Lyra used Trickery!
It's super effective!
The foe's Latias lost 14% of its health!
The foe's Latias fainted!
The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
Boots sent out Shibirudon!
Start of turn 11
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Shibirudon's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Shibirudon became confused!
The foe's Shibirudon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 23% of its health!
The foe's Shibirudon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 12
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Shibirudon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 24% of its health!
The foe's Shibirudon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 13
The foe's Shibirudon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 24% of its health!
Lyra used Trickery!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 40% of its health!
The foe's Shibirudon fainted!
Boots sent out Empoleon!
Start of turn 14
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Empoleon's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Empoleon became confused!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Start of turn 15
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Start of turn 16
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra lost 151 HP! (49% of its health)
The foe's Empoleon is hurt by Lyra's Rugged Helmet!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 17
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Empoleon snapped out its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra lost 163 HP! (53% of its health)
The foe's Empoleon is hurt by Lyra's Rugged Helmet!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 18
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Empoleon's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Empoleon became confused!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon lost 26% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 19
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon lost 27% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 20
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon lost 26% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 21
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Lyra used Trickery!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Empoleon lost 16% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon fainted!
Boots sent out Cresselia!
Start of turn 22
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Start of turn 23
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra lost 83 HP! (27% of its health)
Start of turn 24
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Cresselia's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Cresselia became confused!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
The foe's Cresselia used Psychic!
It had no effect!
Start of turn 25
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia lost 10% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 26
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia lost 10% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 27
The foe's Cresselia snapped out its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Lyra used Trickery!
It's super effective!
The foe's Cresselia lost 70% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 28
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Cresselia's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Cresselia became confused!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra lost 84 HP! (27% of its health)
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 29
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia lost 16% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 30
The foe's Cresselia snapped out its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra lost 73 HP! (24% of its health)
Lyra's Sp. Def. fell!
Lyra used Trickery!
It's super effective!
The foe's Cresselia lost 22% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia fainted!
Boots sent out Roobushin!
Start of turn 31
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
A critical hit!
Lyra lost 191 HP! (62% of its health)
Start of turn 32
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 102 HP! (33% of its health)
Lyra used Trickery!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Roobushin lost 18% of its health!
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 33
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 96 HP! (31% of its health)
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 34
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
A critical hit!
Lyra lost 187 HP! (61% of its health)
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 35
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 97 HP! (31% of its health)
Start of turn 36
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 95 HP! (31% of its health)
Start of turn 37
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 92 HP! (30% of its health)
Lyra used Trickery!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Roobushin lost 20% of its health!
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 38
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 52 HP! (17% of its health)
Lyra fainted!
Altair used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latias lost 55% of its health!
The foe's Latias used Dragon Pulse!
A critical hit!
Altair lost 99 HP! (31% of its health)
Altair fainted!
The foe's Latias restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Denizen sent out Lyra! (Sableye)
Start of turn 10
Lyra used Trickery!
It's super effective!
The foe's Latias lost 14% of its health!
The foe's Latias fainted!
The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
Boots sent out Shibirudon!
Start of turn 11
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Shibirudon's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Shibirudon became confused!
The foe's Shibirudon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 23% of its health!
The foe's Shibirudon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 12
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Shibirudon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 24% of its health!
The foe's Shibirudon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 13
The foe's Shibirudon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 24% of its health!
Lyra used Trickery!
The foe's Shibirudon lost 40% of its health!
The foe's Shibirudon fainted!
Boots sent out Empoleon!
Start of turn 14
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Empoleon's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Empoleon became confused!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Start of turn 15
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Start of turn 16
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra lost 151 HP! (49% of its health)
The foe's Empoleon is hurt by Lyra's Rugged Helmet!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 17
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Empoleon snapped out its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra lost 163 HP! (53% of its health)
The foe's Empoleon is hurt by Lyra's Rugged Helmet!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 18
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Empoleon's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Empoleon became confused!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon lost 26% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 19
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon lost 27% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 20
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Empoleon lost 26% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 21
The foe's Empoleon is confused!
The foe's Empoleon used Waterfall!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Lyra used Trickery!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Empoleon lost 16% of its health!
The foe's Empoleon fainted!
Boots sent out Cresselia!
Start of turn 22
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Start of turn 23
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra lost 83 HP! (27% of its health)
Start of turn 24
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Cresselia's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Cresselia became confused!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
The foe's Cresselia used Psychic!
It had no effect!
Start of turn 25
Lyra used Substitute!
Lyra made a substitute!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia lost 10% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 26
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia lost 10% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 27
The foe's Cresselia snapped out its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
Lyra's substitute faded!
Lyra used Trickery!
It's super effective!
The foe's Cresselia lost 70% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 28
Lyra used Swagger!
The foe's Cresselia's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Cresselia became confused!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra lost 84 HP! (27% of its health)
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 29
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Cresselia is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia lost 16% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 30
The foe's Cresselia snapped out its confusion!
The foe's Cresselia used Shadow Ball!
Lyra lost 73 HP! (24% of its health)
Lyra's Sp. Def. fell!
Lyra used Trickery!
It's super effective!
The foe's Cresselia lost 22% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia fainted!
Boots sent out Roobushin!
Start of turn 31
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
A critical hit!
Lyra lost 191 HP! (62% of its health)
Start of turn 32
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 102 HP! (33% of its health)
Lyra used Trickery!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Roobushin lost 18% of its health!
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 33
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 96 HP! (31% of its health)
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 34
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
A critical hit!
Lyra lost 187 HP! (61% of its health)
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 35
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 97 HP! (31% of its health)
Start of turn 36
Lyra used Recover!
Lyra regained health!
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 95 HP! (31% of its health)
Start of turn 37
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 92 HP! (30% of its health)
Lyra used Trickery!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Roobushin lost 20% of its health!
The foe's Roobushin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 38
The foe's Roobushin used Earthquake!
Lyra lost 52 HP! (17% of its health)
Lyra fainted!
Sableye ("Lyra" in this case) shows off how it can take out even bulky attackers down with such a combo, and take hits itself even when a Roobushin is getting lucky crits. In this case it managed to come in on a Trick Room and pick off Latios, making it a nice addition to a Trick room team. It was also using a Rugged Helmet, which further wears down Physical Attackers, though it's inability to work through Substitutes means you're better off relying on Leftovers, or boosting Swagger's reliability with a Wide Lens.
That seems quite rage-inducing. I like it
yeah, leftovers is probably the better option here. It would also probably be a good idea to pass a sub to whoever you plan to Foul Play abuse with, probably with Kojondo/Mienshao since regeneration makes it very reusable, so that you won't have to waste a turn subing or at least won't take damage on the switch in. It would also give your opponent an opportunity to set up on you which you could use in your favor.
quick question:
If you burn the opponent, would that affect Foul Play?
If you burn the opponent, would that affect Foul Play?
Yes it would.
I actually tried Sub/Roost/Swagger/Foul Play Murkrow today, and he's actually not that bad. I used 252 HP/252 SpD Calm, because let's face it, he's not living through a +2 attack, even with Evolution Stone.
He was even able to take out walls like Hippowdon pretty easily. The only problem is when the opponent keeps getting to attack through confusion. I had times where they would keep hitting through confusion, and then there was nothing else Murkrow could do because they snapped out when he was at low health from all the subbing. Then they would wreck my team with a +2/+4 attack, which is annoying. I guess the set is better if you have Toxic Spikes on your team though.
He was even able to take out walls like Hippowdon pretty easily. The only problem is when the opponent keeps getting to attack through confusion. I had times where they would keep hitting through confusion, and then there was nothing else Murkrow could do because they snapped out when he was at low health from all the subbing. Then they would wreck my team with a +2/+4 attack, which is annoying. I guess the set is better if you have Toxic Spikes on your team though.
its too bad umbreon doesn't get this move, more support oriented sets could probably use it to better effect than payback. as it is, i only see sableeye as a viable user.
@masterful from a while ago: Murkrow isn't in LC anymorw, due to Evo Stone, Mischievous Heart,a good support movepool and OK Speed. Houndour is a Pokemon known for Gen 5 Trickery in LC, though. Sandile hasn't caught on, yet, though.
In theory, Foul Play can OHKO Deoxys (Attack or Normal forms). But in practice, those Pokemon can OHKO the Pokemon (or severely injure it) before they can use the move.
But that opponent barely made any sense. EQ Roob? Psychic on something immune to it? Lolwut? Swagger is also too gimmicky, as it relies on the opponent hitting himself in confusion than killing you outright and spamming that free SD.
Roob gets walled by the likes of Croagunk without EQ, so it's not an awful choice. Psychic was a LOL moment, which i'd put down to the Sub messing with his head a bit.
Swagger IS a gimmicky move, no doubt about it (duh), but like all gimmicks it can be annoyingly effective in the right hands, and sans Own Tempo can the combo has the potential to kill anything. The thing is, nobody likes Confusion, especially not when they know they can eliminate themselves in one turn, so it can force switches and generally ruin any momentum the opponent has, and that can be a valuable thing outside of just type-based counters. As for the free SD - as I said being able to use it properly usually needs decent priority or Unaware on your team, in which case your Swaggery gimmick is forming one part of a larger team. Keep in mind that Priority Subs and Priority Recover are extending a Swaggery user's longevity. Also keep in mind Special Attackers aren't going to be enjoying Swagger at all. Trickery is generally a superb move on its own, too.
That being said, may as well take the gimmick all the way. brb making a team of a 6 Swagger users.
If this gimmick ever got popular, people would start remembering to make their special attackers have 0 attack EVs. It's a habit I still have from earlier generations when Confuse Ray was a more popular move, but I hardly see people bother with it these days. You never know, some day it might win you a game.
It's certainly a habit i've started using. Call me crazy but confusion does seem to be around alot more today, and with moves like Trickery coming with them, it's not an unreasonable idea providing you're not screwing up Hidden Power or something.
I do that because of Power Share Shuckle. It's nice to know if helps counter another thing.
No, it actually doesn't. It was confirmed over in the Sableye thread that burn does not in fact half the damage of Trickery, as it cuts the damage dealt in half, NOT the burned pokemon's attack stat.
That said, while i have tested this confirmation from someone in the research thread should look into it. The way it worked in my tests was that a burned opponent will not change the trickery users damage, but if the person using Trickery is burned they do half damage, suggesting that burn halves damage dealt. This is consistent with why crits don't break through burn while they break through defense boosts and attack stat drops.
Foul play isn't about speed. It is a move designed for bulky Pokemon walling strong frail physical attackers or on a Special attacker using it to go mixed(which isn't very bright seeing most walls have low attack). Given the limited pool of users I would say Will-O-The-Wisp Sableye and possibly some version of Evo-Stone Murkrow would be the best users. It's meant for Physical walls taking advantage of the high attack stats of what they wall.
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