Fly/Dig/Dive - Viable on Stall Sets?

UltimoVenusaur

The deficiencies of two-turn evade moves on offense are well-documented. Why spread damage out on two turns when you can attack consecutively with moves even more powerful? Plus, Dig gets nailed with double damage on Earthquake on the underground turn.

But what about on stalling sets? These two turn moves nearly guarantee that you're wasting at least one of your opponent's precious PP for one turn. If you combine these moves with any combination of Protect, Encore, Taunt, Pressure or Spite, you not only get PP drainage, but you can cause a little bit of damage too.

There are risks. I don't think Dig works very well at all because of the prevalence of Earthquake, but Fly could work, since many more people prefer Thunderbolt over Thunder (and except in rain, Thunder's accuracy is still suspect on the aerial turn), and since only a total of 5 Pokémon (and only 2 in the OU) can learn Sky Uppercut. Dive's kind of a rare move (especially since you can't transfer over Dive-learners from Adv. Gen via Pal Park).

What do you think?
 
i dunno... that one stall turn allows the opponent to switch in a reliable counter for minimal/no damage once he finds out u keep using dig/dive/fly.
besides, i've had my fair share of being haxxed by 95% accuracy moves such as fly
 
Hmm...I suppose you'd have to be careful to use something like this on slow PKMN to sure you don't get hit on the return.

I doubt it will ever see much use for the stated reasons, but it could actually work if there are already several layers of Spike/Tspikes to discourage switching. Or maybe you'd want to encourage switching to spread around Toxic.
 
Most likely. Most (Almost all) D/P teams have at least one sweeper, so I can't imagine it'd be wise to give the opponent free chances to switch in the beginning or mid battle when you don't know what PKMN they have, you haven't set much up yet and their sweepers (including counters) are ready to go.
 
they can be really usefull in the ate game, but you can't really enjoy kuch form them im the competitive side of things in DP... Fly is the only one good enough since twister is never seen in competitive and Sky Uppercut is quite rara as well, but don't get fooled... It only takes parafusion to take you out of that strategy... With an acc of 95% on fly, confusion/paralyse can diminuish your chances of getting a hit... It can fail on the first turn, making take damage on both turns or you might fly up on the first one and fail on the second one... Even though the second ones is not so bad since you get to avoid one attack, but the first one really sucks...
 
actually, I once played around with a stalling aerodactyl with protect/fly/eq/roost. it worked decently with pressure, though pressure stalling is better left to the likes of suicune and zapdos.
 
Technically you're missing Shadow Force, although I don't know if using it in a stalling team in ubers would be really viable.
 
imho, the only time that Fly was ever useful was when you could exploit that bug in RBY to stay permanently airborne, you needed to be fully paralysed in the turn you were in the air.

You may as well use Substitute or Protect or something else to stall.
 
I would hate face this kind of Aerodactyl:

Aero @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
252 HP / 252 Spd / 6 Atk
- Protect
- Fly
- Taunt
- Subsitute

Pair this with Toxic Spikes and you have an incredible annoying pokemon to handle, which also drain your PPs.
 
I would love that aerodactyl, what the fuck is it going to do to you, you can throw a physical wall in on a fly and just whittle it with a worthless attack, its dead weight.
 
Articanus said:
Only reason I would ever use Dig would be on Linoone and Fly on Charizard.

Dive is useless.
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Backing up your statements is always helpful. Why the hell would you use Dig on Linoone and Fly on Charizard? And how is Dive any more useless than the others? IIRC only Surf can hit divers.
 
the most effective stalling aerodactyl set does not use fly it uses
protect
roost
substitute
torment

protect first turn. then use torment to prevent their next attack. then protect. so on and so forth until they call you a (BAN ME PLEASE) and leave.
 
Tytus said:
Backing up your statements is always helpful. Why the hell would you use Dig on Linoone and Fly on Charizard? And how is Dive any more useless than the others? IIRC only Surf can hit divers.
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fair enough

In UU, Linoone has a hard time OHKOing Steelix, Aggron, and Probopass. If you use Rock Smash, Aggron and Probopass barely survive with max defense investment while Steelix barely takes 40%. Dig OHKOs the latter two and can KO a beat up steelix(such as coming in on a full layer of spikes).

Fly on Charizard after a Belly drum allows you to OHKO Bulky Waters such as Gyarados(especially important as it has Intimidate to lower your attack), Suicune, and even the odd Hariyama(definately the best Charizard counter in the game) after a belly drum.

Nothing can use dive for similar reasons, as there is always the available waterfall/ surf for waters.
 
seeing the belly drum/fly combo I wonder something... after having your max health droped to 50%, you pack max attack, but still fly is a little bit weak... but with 50% healtth is good to have a foe that misses you...

still, an air slah is much better, and even aerial ace packs more avantage than fly...

my opinion
 
The reason stalling with Fly doesn't really work is that you're really doing nothing to stop them from switching. This means you just switch, or just really just smack Aerodactyl (who seems to be considered a lot for some reason) once to take it down.

I'd honestly use something like Fly/Sub/Double Team/Roost Zapdos (assuming evasion is unbanned) if I wanted to be annoying like that but sets like these really doesn't work unless you have some method to force them from switching considering you're doing nothing that prevents them from switching around and wasting YOUR pp.

I would never consider Dig since EQ is common, and I remember a friend stalling my Suicune with a Dive/Leech Seed/Protect/<filler> Ludicolo back in ADV when I didn't play the game competitively at all
 
Hmm. Dive Suicune could be a good idea. It can survive a double-power Surf anyway.

Or give it a Choice Scarf and just Dive every turn you can while pressure stalling >_>

I really don't like stall play much.
 
Fly isn't weak. It was upgraded to 90 power in DP, making it quite the powerful attack. The reason it's useful on a Bellyzard is the following.

Imagine they bring in Suicune after you've Belly Drummed. You use Fly as they use whatever (it doesn't matter what they do, as long as it's not Substitute). If they stay in, they die. If they switch, then it doesn't matter what they switch to, it will either be OHKOed by Fly or be brought into KO range from Fire Punch, pretty much no matter what it is (Regirock will survive Fire Punch + Fly, but I'd generally only be using Fly on a 3 attack Charizard, so you'll have EQ).
 
These moves are much better in 2v2 than 1v1. They don't know which Pokemon you targeted, so it's harder to make sure they protect the right one. It's also a sort of pseudo-Protect that's much harder to Imprison. As long as you're faster, you can use it to dodge Explosions. If you're slower, you can use it to dodge your own Explosions on the next turn.
 
If it was possible to use Dive on a Stallrein, then it's possible that you would have a net gain of HP rather than breaking even. With Protect+Dive the opponent is only hitting you once every three turns. With Subsitute, it could be even less, assuming that you are faster. Of course, it may be useful to run another attack like Blizzard over Roar.

Other than the aforementioned Fly on Bellyzard, and perhaps a Ludicolo set with Sub/Leech Seed/Protect/Dive for a lame attempt at Uber stall, nothing else would be useful with these moves afaik.
 
I agree that 2 turn moves are viable on stall sets, but I think they would only work for certain sets. You could stall with Leech Seed or Toxic in an attempt to kill things. You could abuse Pressure to drain the enemy's PP. You could use 2 turn moves to get extra recovery from lefties, but protect does it better.

However, if you are using 2 turn moves, you run the risk of becoming predictable. If you are just using Fly on your Aerodactyl to force the enemy to loose PP, they could seize the opportunity to switch out and set up their SD Lucario. What you need to do is show the enemy that you're not just going to stall. You need to show your enemy that they can't get a free switch without running the risk of getting their Pokemon hurt badly. You need to utilize other moves to play mind games with your opponents.
 
Kingdrom said:
If it was possible to use Dive on a Stallrein, then it's possible that you would have a net gain of HP rather than breaking even. With Protect+Dive the opponent is only hitting you once every three turns. With Subsitute, it could be even less, assuming that you are faster. Of course, it may be useful to run another attack like Blizzard over Roar.

Other than the aforementioned Fly on Bellyzard, and perhaps a Ludicolo set with Sub/Leech Seed/Protect/Dive for a lame attempt at Uber stall, nothing else would be useful with these moves afaik.
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Sadly neither Walrein or Ludicolo get Dive in 4th Gen thanks to the crappy way the PalPark works.

Also, it's [the Dig/Dive/Fly moves] actually even less helpful than normal in Shoddy. IIRC, they take 1 PP to Fly/Dive/Dive, then another PP to actually attack. Not sure if that's fixed yet, but you won't be PP stalling so long with that.
 
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