Metagame Flipped

[flying moose]

art by b-torterra

Flipped​

Premise
All pokemon have their base stats flipped. (HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe --> Spe/SpD/SpA/Def/Atk/HP)

In this metagame, everything's stats are rendered backwards. For example, in normal play, Sylveon has a statline of 95/65/65/110/130/60, but in Flipped it enters the field with 60/130/110/65/65/95, transforming it from a slow Calm Mind user to a physical attacking breaker.

Almost everything is reinvented in this meta. Slow walls are now glass cannons. High HP mons are now speed demons. Get ready for a meta where type conventions are new--Fighting types tend to be specially defensive, most Psychics have physical bulk, Rocks are special attackers, and so on. Not everything has the movepool to adapt, but for those that do, it's a wild new world.



Rules
Standard OM Clauses
Evasion Clause
Sleep Mod Clause



Banlist

Pokemon

Araquanid
Arceus
Azumarill
Blissey
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Cloyster
Cyclizar
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga
Dialga-Origin
Eternatus
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Groudon
Ho-oh
Koraidon
Kyogre
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Mewtwo
Miraidon
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Palkia
Palkia-Origin
Rayquaza
Regieleki
Reshiram
Shaymin-Sky
Snorlax
Solgaleo
Sylveon
Terapagos
Torkoal
Tornadus-Therian
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zekrom

Items

King's Rock

Abilities

Arena Trap
Shadow Tag
Moody

Moves

Baton Pass
Last Respects
Shed Tail

Questions & Answers
How are the stat changes applied?
The base stats are flipped, not the final calculated level 100 stats. This means that you should still apply EVs/IVs to the actual intended areas. If you want a max speed Choice Band Sylveon, you would still place EVs in speed and attack and give it a Jolly nature. The teambuilder won't display the Flipped stats, so the final values it shows won't be accurate, but when you start a battle you'll be operating on the Flipped stats with the applied investments. You can find the correct value of a final calculated stat using this damage calculator. We will compile speed tiers as the meta develops.

Is there a command in Pokemon Showdown for looking up the new statlines?
Yes. Enter "/flip [pokemon name]" if you don't want to read the base stats backwards.

Are items affected in any way?
No. Items function as normal. For instance, a choice band will increase the holder's newly acquired attack stat.

What happens with the HP of form-changing pokemon?
In normal play, some pokemon who can change form mid-battle acquire a new speed stat, which in this meta would result in a new HP--an event that cannot occur. This means that such form-changing pokemon will retain the HP of their base form, derived from the base form's original speed stat. In the current meta this concerns Eiscue, Meloetta, and Minior.

Is this playable?
Yes! Though so far we have only had a ladder during Leader's Choice/OMOTM, you can challenge other users to play Flipped games. Here is the challenge code (not fully updated): /challenge gen9anythinggoes @@@ Flipped Mod, Standard OMs, Sleep Clause mod, Evasion Clause, -kings rock, -baton pass, -last respects, -arena trap, -moody, -shadow tag, -miraidon, -koraidon, -azumarill, -blissey, -torkoal, -cloyster,

Is there a Discord channel?
Yes, follow this link.



Resources
Gen 8 Flipped Discussion Forum
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/flipped.3662020/

Council:
flying moose
shnowshner
kenn
InkyDarkBird

 

[flying moose]

Reserved for Viability Rankings

 

[flying moose]

Reserved for Speed Tiers

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[flying moose]

Reserved for Other Resources or Announcements
- See Post 11 for comments on initial banlist.
- See Post 17 for initial comments on post-DLC banlist

 

[Hpdsd]

First Impressions are:

Blissey looks broken similarly how it was last gen. I don't think there is any point of emplaining why something with 135 base Attack and 255 base Speed and serene grace and incredible coverage is dumb and restricting.

No Mienshao here so special attackers now again can do something without weather or Psyshock.

Brute Bonnet looks strong with 115 base speed, Spore, CC, Earth Power, and good special and physical moves, allowing it to bypass checks and counters with its sets ranging from CB to Specs to even scarf unless you pull up the random phys def Breloom.

Dudunspace looks interesting with Boomburst, that speed tier and the covarage are very good but the sp.atk doesn't look like it'll cut it.

Its kind of sad that we get so many speedy pokemon but none of them until Bonnet (you can argue Dudunsparce and Ting-Lu but they have their problems with damage output and coverage + and physical bulk) are fast with usable stats, until Garchomp which usually doesn't go offfensive sets here, so Roaring Moon.

(You forgot to add Houndstone to the Speed Tiers section btw)

Flutter Mane looks very weird with no real physical options but 135 base attack but it get night shade will-o plus the Wish + tect which also is quite important with the recovery nerf it looks quite decent and this is just a super impressive calc here that shows its bulk:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Flutter Mane: 204-241 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO this calc is with flipped Azu as well so yeah, this is why its usable even with no real physical moves without random Tera plus tera blast and you would rather tera something else.

Gholdengo looks like a decent physdef mon that can find itself place on hazard stack as the only foggers and spinners that can clear Hazards in front of it and are also viable are: Iron Treads ( a quite good mon on itself fearing focus blast and eating everything else and also getting up rocks on it), Brambleghast ( Can always avoid 2HKO from uninvested Shadow Ball with 248HP 20 Spdef EVs and 2HKO back always, also its a spdef mon so it probably runs more spdef) and for defoggers its special Talonflame, Noivern with chip can; as flame doesn't 2HKO Max Hp variants, (Oricorio-Sensu and Drifblim exist but are bad) And you can go Plot as well and its a decent sylveon stoper which is a plus.

CB Tinkaton looks like a nice way to make progress, physically bulky pokemon that resist its coverage don't really exist. And has moldy to beat unaware that also doesn't really exist.

To be continued( i got tired. )

 

[Hpdsd]

Fat Cyclizar with the large subs looks nice but no speed definitely hurts. Not sure if it'll stay legal as it now passes slow subs and will be easier to abuse the subs for set-up.

Its nice seeing old staple Goodra around still, it keeps most of its physical coverage so thats going to be fun to use, Outrage go brr after you iron tail the Sylveon.

Krilowattrel looks like bad Zapdos mostly but that HP stat is very nice. Even though the horrible offensive stats and no Defog on a flying type sucks it should find a spot on some build as Electric/Flying is a good typing and it has reliable recovery, pivoting, good physical and acceptable special bulk.

Squawkabilly is .... not usable next

Flamigo, is a pokeomon i am excited about, Bulk Up looks like its fire, Taunt, reliable recovery, good spdef and usable speed and finally a stab nothing is immune to make a good combination. Despite the fact its weak pre-setup, its ability to outspeed and taunt stuff makes it a very decent stall breaker and it isn't horrible against balance.You can use somethinglike this:
Flamigo @ Leftovers
Ability: Costar
EVs: 248 HP / 96 SpD / 164 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Taunt
I made the set on point so the evs could be adjusted but basically it outspeeds bas 60's with positive natures and the remainder in bulk, you could optimize it but since the meta hasn't started yet I can't post an actual set depending on the meta.

 

[lolgod3]

Ting-Lu will likely be the best special attacker in this meta I am guessing, likely on top of the metagame since there is no way blobs don't get banned, and Cetitan has practically no offensive presence, with Dondozo and Iron Hands have basically no special moves either. Defensive Weed Cat can set up hazards and stuff, and Scream Tail appears to be a good physical attacker with its movepool and stats
That's basically all I got rn
anyways I'll quickly paste some sets here cuz I'm bored

Ting-Lu @ Life Orb
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Stealth Rock / Ruination
- Tera Blast

Scream Tail @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
- Psychic Fangs
- Fire Punch / Thunder Punch

Meowscarada @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt / Leech Seed
- Flower Trick / U-turn

 

[Spiderpig2398]

Some random S/V mon thoughts at a glance.

(66 / 75 / 110 / 100 / 75 / 104)
A fast special sweeper with somewhat unfortunate low special bulk. Physical bulk is still passable though. Torch Song now lets it snowball better than before.

(68 / 97 / 50 / 100 / 101 / 72)
Significantly worse off than base form due to now having an abusable physical defense stat to hit, but Last Respects is still Last Respects.

(100 / 62 / 53 / 72 / 70 / 100 -> 100 / 152 / 78 / 125 / 95 / 100)
Palafin with better mixed potential at the cost of being a bit harder to get in safely.

(116 / 60 / 120 / 90 / 130 / 74)
This thing is... weird. No reliable recovery means its best option may just be to run maximum damage output and use it as a bulky hitter? It's got potential, but the typing makes it difficult to use.

 

[shnowshner]

okay time to talk about stuff
anything not mentioned is unviable(!!!) or i legit did not have energy to even look at

very interesting stat spread and a good priority move bodes well, though it shouldn't be as overwhelming now that it lacks a massive attack stat
dragon dance sets should still be decently viable
very fat, cool typing, calm mind sets could definitely work
given tera is still around u can probably make flying acro put in work, stats are funky tho
111 speed spore with decent offenses and cool movepool. probably okay
this has 135 attack and nothing on the physical side. basically a physdef ghost/fairy wall which is cool but very passive
uhhhh its fast has earth power knock off rapid spin??? iron treads is probably better
slow as hell and less special attack in exchange for high physical bulk. it still might be annoying to switch into but it no longer outspeeds almost everything, rather the opposite
awful special movepool but this has 154 speed and Belly Drum so who gives a damn HO is everywhere this can probably carry its own weight
salazzle with recovery pivoting and fiery dance ig, should be fine
good special movepool on this, especially with volt switch. could be neat
ground/steel stab ala steelix though this looks way less powerful, good utility pool tho
idk what this does but it's maybe not awful
fast and quite strong, can go physical or special honestly and has a deep movepool with setup and team support.
bulky bug/fighting with fimpression and fire coverage, not bad
oh lord LMAO you basically only have stab as special coverage but hey rocks + taunt could be neat
good attack and nice stats all around, stab knock is a pretty big deal right now as well
last respects
i can see this working alright, faster but weaker though rage fist is still a nutty move
weak armor + calm mind has potential, honestly seems fun to use if not tricky
it's fast and is an electric with something to dissuade grounds in muddy water. okay?
probably not good but it learns all four of rocks/parting shot/knock off/taunt lol
SD sets should remain quite strong if less immediately threatening
170 speed but it needs to setup to remotely threaten things. belly drum tho, and sheer force can pull a lot of weight in the power department. very scary mon imo
not bad at all, fast and strong with high power stabs, but its insanely frail so u have to be careful
Shed Tail
fast, has boomburst and lots of random moves, you could do a whole lot worse than this and it might find a home depending on how the meta shapes up
specially offensive rock that still has decent attack, salt cure is a good move no matter the case just for being able to harass passive stuff
yeah steel/ghost with crazy moves and good stats blahblah whatever just slap this on hazard stack
hazard stack
why is this not terrible. prankster parting shot and toxic is quite valuable, its got good bulk, knock off and super fang to annoy like anything really. kinda crazy
zapdos lite, even comes with volt absorb in exchange for being a good pokemon
strong special stats, decent offensive movepool and supreme overlord. you can absolutely get away with sucker punch on this as well, which is a great selling point imo
could be an interesting suicide lead or just annoying rocker that doesn't die to chip. its fine.
the rats. tidy up is legit like one of the few available hazard removal options
funny special movepool and parting shot but it's probably not that good. steel/poison is rather unique though
i guess u can run this as an annoying subseeder thanks to stab flame and will-o-wisp? idk it's a very strange mon
good

MONO BUG MONO WIN (Spidops) @ Silver Powder
Ability: Stakeout
- First Impression
- U-turn
- Silk Trap
- Leech Life
*You feel better but not much
has an actual attack stat now, and fairy/steel is never a bad typing. hopefully.
very interesting mon thanks to spore, high attack with power whip + knock, and rapid spin. gholdengo can be spored as well to frustrate its spinblocking attempts, which is honestly very cool. if this had EQ it'd truly be a fun guy.
fillet away probably does enough to make it viable in conjunction with sharpness and its cutting moves.

returning stuff

the sylveon. you know what it does and it does so quite well. terastallization is huge as well for either overloading your fairy STAB or unlocking tera blast to blow past checks.
this lost headbutt which is quite epic. might still be annoying and uncompetitive but the worst aspect about it is at least gone.
the lugg. this will likely remain viable until hisuian avalugg drops which is a much stronger option overall.
cloyster but you can terastall it
weather ball being gone kinda sucks but this mon is still insane to switch into after smash
it's decent
no teleport makes this a lot less interesting as a defensive mon, still has neat tools though
chomper wit da spikes is very cool
still fat as hell, infiltrator + wisp or twave could be high value with shed tail being so strong
no defog. basically fat intimidate blob.
should be more than okay, tera is a big deal for it
no roost, F
this got power gem and that's really neat honestly, also sand stream for houndstone
still a fine mon
disguise could come in clutch a lot depending on how offensive the metagame is, and it's not too weak either
corrosion toxic and knock are the big things keeping this relevant in the face of iron moth
fast specially offensive rock doing much of what it could do last gen
defog user #1. strength sap is a huge move to have, they finally gave it air slash, and yes, DEFOG
this is the only other defog user i could find that looked passable. otherwise its bad mence which already looks pretty dogwater
its washtom it'll win a game at some point
very strong HO enabler, screens + pshot + filler and prankster is a big deal, and it's decently bulky as well.
rain
snow
another fairy/steel, with knock a lot less common recycle might be a decent recovery option for it, otherwise prankster + utility movepool

new old mons (they are almost all terrible)

the 154 attack stat with zero attacking moves. i feel sorry for any team that needs to run this
it's alright????????????
nothing special, hopefully we get muk-alola at some point though because that could be quite strong on the right team
150 speed and maybe u just eat special hits and slack off, the fact this feels more workable here than it does in standard play is horrifying to think about


btw we're working on getting up a Viability List sometime in the near future (if i really strain myself out perhaps even tonight after supper) so stay tuned for that!

 

[Hiusi guy]

Lmao
Vaporeon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Trailblaze
- Last Resort

95 atk and 130 speed means that most likely you can't out speed it after the +1 though unfortunately it doesn't get anything like swords dance, it'll probably get a lot of kills through sheer base power plus stab alone so swords dance probably wouldn't be useful anyways

 

[flying moose]

Hi everyone. I'd like to make a couple announcements.


First off, I'd like to officially welcome Ducky to the council. We are excited to have you.


Next, I'd like to make a few comments on our initial banlist.

Regarding pokemon:

• The only new initial ban (besides the obvious box legendaries) is Houndstone, whose Attack and Speed are virtually identical to in standard OU, and is thus set to terrorize the meta with Last Respects. We will reassess whether to ban Last Respects rather than Houndstone once Home transfers are enabled and another user of the move is added.
• Azumarill and Blissey are just as problematic as they were last generation so their bans are carrying over. The other Flipped-specific pokemon ban from last gen (Steelix) is not in the game this generation.
• Gen 9 OU has implemented several pokemon bans () that we will not be implementing in Flipped, as almost all of them are far less threatening with their new statlines. The main one that we will be keeping a close watch on is Cyclizar, whose newfound immense bulk could still make it an effective though very different Shed Tail passer than in standard, but we will give it the chance to see how it fares.

Regarding moves and abilities.

• We are carrying over our Shell Smash ban from last generation. In a meta where the defensive pokemon who typically get this move are reinvented as heavy hitters, SS continues to put multiple pokemon over the edge (namely Torkoal and Cloyster). This is admittedly fewer than last gen, since Blastoise and Turtonator are absent, whereas Polteageist and Drednaw appear manageable, so it's possible we may reassess and ban the specific problematic pokemon when this meta receives a ladder, but for now we are going to continue with the Shell Smash ban.
• We will however free up Psychic Surge and Psychic Terrain. These were banned during the extreme hyper-offensive phase of the meta's launch, as they allowed Flipped's numerous glass cannons to completely subvert priority as a counter strategy, but after Gen 8's dex expansion the meta became extremely stally. Since we can't say what it will look like at the start of Gen 9, we are operating on a clean slate and allowing the terrain.
• We will start with Sleep Mod clause rather than Sleep Moves clause, and will assess making the switch only if sleep moves turn out to be troublesome.
• Other bans (Moody, trapping abilities, Baton Pass, King's Rock) are pretty standard stuff.

Finally, I'd like to share the challenge code so everyone can start battling in this wild OM. Thanks Ducky for sourcing this. I have updated the OP with this information as well.
/challenge gen9anythinggoes @@@ Flipped Mod, Standard OMs, Sleep Clause mod, Evasion Clause, -kings rock, -baton pass, -shell smash, -arena trap, -moody, -shadow tag, -miraidon, -koraidon, -azumarill, -blissey, -houndstone

 

[shnowshner]

so I have recently been getting the itch to play Flipped again (also would like to push resources further but sorta need to play games first) and spent a good amount of time building teams/sets, here's some stuff I like so far:


Sylveon @ Choice Band / Life Orb / Expert Belt / Soft Sand
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- Quick Attack
- Body Slam / Double-Edge
- Double-Edge / Facade / honestly whatever

On the surface, it doesn't look like Sylveon gained much. Trailblaze is a funny new move but I think your bread-and-butter "run 4 Normal moves like its RBY" sets are still the best option. That is, until I remembered Sylveon did get a fantastic new tool: Tera Blast. Now, it is weaker than Body Slam and has no paralysis chance, so it may feel redundant at first, but there's two specific advantages this brings to your set. The first is that this isn't a contact move, which is extremely helpful as a midground option to reduce the pressure Rocky Helmet/Flame Body would normally present to you. The second is you Tera Ground and delete the Fire/Steel/Poison types that otherwise impede your progress. That isn't a specific advantage of Sylveon, but what is would be how Tera Blast is actually somewhat useful without needing to Tera Sylveon thanks to its properties and Pixilate. This makes it a lot less troublesome to include multiple Tera Blast users on the same team, as Sylveon doesn't even need to Tera in order to have potential use out of the move. Add in the fact that this monstrosity only needs like 2 moves to be threatening anyway so who cares if it's something you rarely use. The only major hinderance is that Pixie Plate was just axed entirely with zero compensation, so no free +1.2 boost to your STAB like before.


Ting-Lu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Ruination
- Spikes

Supremely funny mon, it's Speed is nearly unmatched by the unboosted metagame and Ground/Dark STAB is very nice. Unfortunately, that's the extent of its useful Special movepool, so you sorta need to scavenge for the last two slots. I figured Ruination was a decent filler slot in case you find yourself against something like Slither Wing, as it's your best way of chipping it down from full before needing to switch. Spiking is useful in general if you'd rather capitalize on forced switches and play the long game. Tera shenanigans are also always an option.


Chansey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Normal / Fighting / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Drain Punch
- Thief
- Stealth Rock

Chansey lost Headbutt which is bad for it and great for everyone else. However, in one of the most random and ostensibly inconsequential movepool updates of Gen 9, this line was given access to Thief, finally providing a way to hit Ghost-types for SE damage! The item-stealing attributes aren't terribly helpful unless you're okay with your physically frail Chansey eating a Knock Off, but it's better than nothing I guess. 224 Speed lets you outpace a +1 max Speed Base 130, you can absolutely go lower depending on team comp though because this mon genuinely can get away with running zero Speed investment and still outrun most things. The main goal of this thing is to threaten out fast Frail mons or anything that doesn't want to eat a Paralysis, and try to wear down the opponent with status or Rocks. There's plenty of strong priority you need to watch out for, and without Headbutt it's a whole lot less threatening to walls, but I still think it's viable just off being so ungodly fast.


Palafin-Hero @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Jet Punch
- Bulk Up
- Taunt

Palafin looks super weird, but it should be workable regardless. WIthout the insane 160 Base Attack it's way less threatening overall, though Jet Punch remains a strong priority move even in base form, giving it opportunities to hit the field and potentially contribute even before transforming into Hero Mode. 100/106/160 bulk is more than enough to give this turns to set up, especially alongside Taunt, and said bulk makes it rather easy to dump heavy investment into Attack to make up for the significant power loss compared to standard play. Honestly I could even see this go the route of a defensive pivot that just eats random Special attacks and uses its wide array of useful Water-type moves to dance around the opponent.

Palafin-Hero @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish / Careful Nature
- Flip Turn
- Jet Punch
- Wave Crash
- Protect / Taunt / Encore / Close Combat

Like surely this isn't too awful. Pivoting, priority, strong STAB, and some utility option in the back. EVs could use work but I think going full Defense and letting your naturally high SpDef do the rest of the work is valid. Alternatively just overload on SpDef and get threatened by virtually no Special Attackers without setup.

Some other stuff I'd love to try and figure out:
This mon looks so cool, and maybe it's also viable here. Wo-Chien's stats were always the most oddly balanced of the quartet, but that's worked to its favor for once as it has a very respectable stat spread with no real bad stat outside of somewhat mediocre HP. 135 Attack and a free Defense Boost from Tablets of Ruin is very appealing, as is the fabled STAB Knock Off. The typing is the biggest issue IMO, I'm not exactly sure what this comes in safely on, and rounding out its movepool feels challenging. Terastallization feels big for this one.
Strong typing and one of the few remaining bulky Steels left, even coming packed with Recover. 95 Special Attack isn't terrible to the point it can't threaten damage, but the main issue I found is I'm not sure what I want Ghold to do once it hits the field. Regardless, blocking Status moves is a huge draw and will certainly give the mon a proper niche in the tier.
These guys all have gained a lot from SV mechanics, though how well their new tools translate to such different stats still needs to be ironed out. Tera is tentatively very useful for Pult and DNite, allowing them to switch to safer defensive typings like Water, Fairy, Ghost, or Steel, and hopefully be better poised to wall out threats with their massive bulk. Extreme Speed strats should also remain plenty feasible for the latter. Chomp meanwhile could be promising as a fast Spiker that has nice coverage and the capacity to tank hits when needed, though its low offenses really bother me.
Crafting HO teams is awkward when the metagame is rather ethereal at the moment, finding good sweepers/breakers (that aren't banned) hasn't been easy for me. The prospects of such massive Substitutes is tantalizing, however, especially when your newly-low Speed could potentially help you slow pivot into a teammate.

 

[flying moose]

On the surface, it doesn't look like Sylveon gained much. Trailblaze is a funny new move but I think your bread-and-butter "run 4 Normal moves like its RBY" sets are still the best option. That is, until I remembered Sylveon did get a fantastic new tool: Tera Blast. Now, it is weaker than Body Slam and has no paralysis chance, so it may feel redundant at first, but there's two specific advantages this brings to your set. The first is that this isn't a contact move, which is extremely helpful as a midground option to reduce the pressure Rocky Helmet/Flame Body would normally present to you. The second is you Tera Ground and delete the Fire/Steel/Poison types that otherwise impede your progress. That isn't a specific advantage of Sylveon, but what is would be how Tera Blast is actually somewhat useful without needing to Tera Sylveon thanks to its properties and Pixilate. This makes it a lot less troublesome to include multiple Tera Blast users on the same team, as Sylveon doesn't even need to Tera in order to have potential use out of the move. Add in the fact that this monstrosity only needs like 2 moves to be threatening anyway so who cares if it's something you rarely use. The only major hinderance is that Pixie Plate was just axed entirely with zero compensation, so no free +1.2 boost to your STAB like before.

Yup, I am very concerned about Sylveon. Ground Tera Blast allows it to either instantly obliterate or 2HKO a ton of the pokemon that otherwise would have been excellent answers to it, namely these guys:

. As a result I think the best checks at the moment are

, thanks to its Ground neutrality, and

, who take nothing from Ground TBlast but have less optimal stats and movepools for eating powerful Fairy attacks all day. Charizard has lost its access to Roost, making it subpar despite having the best stats of the three Fire/Flyings. Rotom-H doesn't have recovery either.

Calcs for damage taken by Tera Ground Sylveon

Would-be counters that are destroyed by Tera Ground

• 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Moth: 444-528 (104.7 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Moth: 390-458 (91.9 - 108%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

• 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Glimmora: 472-556 (125.5 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Glimmora: 411-489 (109.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 234-276 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 203-242 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

• -1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
• -1 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Counters that can still handle or are immune to Tera Ground

• 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 99-118 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 153-181 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 133-157 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 109-129 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93.8% chance to 4HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 94-112 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oricorio: 128-151 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oricorio: 112-133 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oricorio: 91-108 (23.3 - 27.6%) -- 75.5% chance to 4HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oricorio: 78-94 (20 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Of course, the problem that quickly arises is that Sylveon can just as easily run Tera Water, eliminating most of these as potential answers.
I'm having a really hard time coming up with counters that can account for all this. The truest natural switchin is Eviolite

, who is hardly scratched by Fairy moves, is immune to Ground TBlast, and neutral to Water TBlast. But Haunter is extremely passive, relying entirely on some combo of Toxic/Night Shade/Foul Play, and worse, it has no recovery, not even Black Sludge.
My most promising idea so far is actually

who can use Tera Poison or Steel to tank Fairy hits, while being immune to Ground, neutral to Water, and having actual longevity, utility, and offensive presence.

Here's my set.

Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Poison Jab
- Ice Shard/Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

With Poison Jab and an Ice STAB, you have options for hitting Sylveon super-effectively regardless of whether it has Tera'd, and you have the utility of clearing hazards and spreading Poison. Offensive teams can also run max attack instead of defense to take better advantage of Cryogonal's excellent attack stat and STAB priority, though this definitely cuts into how well it tanks hits from Sylveon. Cryogonal doesn't get physical Steel STAB so I think Poison is the superior Tera option. Tera Steel would be better if you want to lean into Cryogonal's utility as a Rapid Spinner, thanks to resisting SR and being immune to all other hazards, or if you want to run both Ice Spinner and Ice Shard, probably with the bulky attacker set. But the drawback of Cryogonal as a spinner is that it has absolutely no way of touching the premier spinblocker, Gholdengo, so I think maximizing your tools for damaging Sylveon is the better approach. The other main problems with Cryogonal are that you need a chance to Tera before you need to switch in to Sylveon, it is weak to Stealth Rock before Tera, and of course it uses up your Tera slot.

Calcs for Sylveon vs Haunter & Cryogonal

• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Tera Ground Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Haunter: 77-91 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Tera Ground Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Haunter: 66-79 (16.7 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Tera Ground Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Haunter: 54-65 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Tera Ground Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Haunter: 47-56 (11.9 - 14.2%) -- possible 8HKO
• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Tera Water Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Haunter: 77-91 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Water Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Haunter: 75-90 (19 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO

with Tera Poison
vs. max defense Cryogonal

• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 131-155 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 113-134 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- 66.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 93-110 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 82-96 (19.8 - 23.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 4 Atk Tera Poison Cryogonal Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 206-246 (78.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 4 Atk Tera Poison Cryogonal Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Sylveon: 104-126 (39.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 4 Atk Tera Poison Cryogonal Ice Spinner vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Sylveon: 206-246 (78.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. bulky offensive Cryogonal

• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 160-187 (38.6 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Choice Band Pixilate Sylveon Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 130-153 (31.4 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Cryogonal: 160-187 (38.6 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Tera Poison Cryogonal Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 272-324 (103.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ Atk Tera Poison Cryogonal Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Sylveon: 138-164 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Tera Poison Cryogonal Ice Spinner vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Sylveon: 272-324 (103.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just so this post isn't entirely about Sylveon, here are some thoughts on other Pokemon that look threatening/interesting, most of which have already been commented on:

Ting-Lu looks like a premier special attacker despite being limited to its STABs. Mostly I wanted to say that the best counters to it that I've noticed are these fellows:

Iron Hands is the other blazing fast special attacker who is also limited to its STABs and Tera Blast. One of those STABs is Focus Miss, and it doesn't have hazards/Taunt to fill up the leftover slots like Ting-Lu does, but its access to Volt Switch really boosts this mon, making a great revenge killer that maintains momentum when your opponent has no Ground types left.

This really hates losing access to Heal Bell and Toxic. Now the standard defensive set doesn't really know what to do with the fourth moveslot (Light Screen or an attacking move I guess, or perhaps Trick Room to support promising new TR options like and ). Even so, it is still an amazing hazard bouncer and Wish Passer, and Tera may breathe new life into it. Turning to Fairy type to frustrate the Dark Pulse users that have arisen to break it seems very obnoxious. Calm Mind sets are probably better as a result. wins from this as an Espeon breaker who doesn't care about Tera Fairy.


This is where I fall victim to cool toy syndrome and post something that is probably completely outclassed but looks really fun. Namely, Infiltrator Strength Sap and Leech Seed look really cool on a mon with 90/80/115 bulk that is also a spinblocker and spinner/setter (choose one but I think spinner is better). Alas, why use this as a spinblocker when exists. At least this thing can win against Gholdengo if you use it as a spinner--its Shadow Ball hits Dengo's bad SpDef, while it has good SpDef for softening Dengo's Shadow Balls.

Finally, the more I look at this, the more I think it is insane. Completely forget about Shed Tail for a moment, look at its other attributes, and you will see that this is basically the new Mienshao. 121/85/95 bulk with RegenVest is really good, and it has amazing utility attacks, sharing U-turn and Knock Off with Mienshao but with Rapid Spin and Dragon Tail in place of Drain Punch and Poison Jab. While its typing is awkward in some ways, it also confers upon it resistances to shrug off some of the most terrifying special attackers. It is probably THE best check to , and shrugs off and even . Here is a replay where it just does not die, including taking only 49% from an Iron Hands Focus Blast: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9anythinggoes-1786379901 Also, it does not fear Psyshock the way Mienshao did, taking away an option for special sweepers to get past it. At least it still fears (unless it starts running Tera Water, with which it can still switch in on the above powerful Fire moves).
Add in the fact that it can also run a Shed Tail set to slowly pass extremely beefy subs to setup sweepers, and I think this looks problematic. Probably the most problematic along with Sylveon. The council hasn't yet discussed Cyclizar, Shed Tail as a move, or Sylveon yet, and we may not convene to do so until the meta becomes playable, but expect that all three of these will be brought up.

EDIT:

Hawlucha @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn/Taunt/Encore
Also wanted to note that bulky Mold Breaker Hawlucha has more of a niche this generation as the only pokemon that can clear hazards on Gholdengo. Last generation it very rarely popped up as a Toxic/Taunt user that messed with Espeon, but it was low tier because it took too much from Espeon's Psychic Fangs to actually be a good check, its defenses weren't great enough, and it was too passive. It doesn't have Toxic anymore, but guaranteed Defog is a much more reliable service. Unfortunately it can't actually hurt Gholdengo (its Fire Punch is far too weak to be consequential), so Taunt/Encore might be useful over U-turn.

 

[Hpdsd]

Home Assesment

Generic Wallbreaker that can’t beat Espeon and doesn’t have a high enough attack stat to utilize outside of clicking Head Smash. Releavant but not very releavant.

Its the same as it always has been, no

RIP Triple Axel but it has Ice Spinner now so you could still make a offensive pivot set work without Triple Axel. Quad weak to Rocks and with the current Hazard Removal it wont be able to run anything except Boots.

Outclassed defensively by Espeon and has a overall mid typing but I believe it could find a niche through its overall balanced stats as some sort of Calm Mind sweeper taking advantage of its high bulk, Recover and Stored Power.

Not necessarily bad but outclassed by base Avalugg since it has a worse typing and a bit more special bulk for losing water moves which means its coverage is Ice + Steel so I can’t see a world this isn’t outclassed by base unless it receives Meteor Beam in the DLC’s.

Fat Pivot with Rocks, Pivoting, Dual Screens and a very useful Ability that allows it to not care about (T) Spikes and run leftovers, will probably see usage as a fat screen setter or a bulky pivot for BO/Balance teams.

and The stat differences are defensively so it doesn’t matter which one it is but, Zoroark-H is the only thing that stops Last Respects due to the extra Power given to these two thanks to Adapt and their good speed tiers, probably banned.

Stats are worse than Articuno-G, I don’t think SFLO gives enough power to patch 70 Spatk up, it probably won’t see usage.

Stats are bad, movepool is bad, not much to say here.

Offenses aren’t bad, can use plot and SubSeed very well, could be given a chance but very borderline.

This now has Base 100 speed and keeps acceptable 50/85 physical bulk and 130 – 150 Offenses. Broken.

Sturdy offensive lead is the only thing you’ll ever use this with, outclassed by Diancie.

HP is bad so bulk ends up being not very impressive and in a bulky psychic invested metagame Triple Arrows isn’t making progress. Although it has a niche being a Defogger that doesn’t care about Ting-Lu at all that can also hit Gholdengo super effectively for some damage.

Outclassed by the Physical Fire types and the bulky Physical Psychics but workable with since Wish having 16 PP is nice in a tier with 8 PP Recovery moves but doesn’t do anything except that and outclassed by Espeon stats wise.

Has less Spatk for more bulk, yeah if this was legal it may not be broken but its still overcentralizing by the fact that it has insane bulk which pairs well with Bulk Up and has coverage for special sets.

Same, forced to hold its item but Bulk Up sets might be too much due to more Attack.

Its slow and has 50/100/100 Bulk so this won’t see usage outside of TR but it seems to be really good under TR due to massive 150/150 attacking stats and decent coverage.

This doesn’t do anything except sitting there without Toxic.

SubSeed could work but its horrible speed tier and bad offenses stop offensive sets while the lack of recovery stops defensive sets.

Spatk is too low to properly use bulky Calm Mind but bulky Superpower alongside Contrary could work but needs too long to get going.

Loses a decent chunk of its bulk for offensive ability while still keeping the horrible speed tier. Maybe someone could make CM Draining Kiss work but until that happens this is bad.

Too Bulky and Fast. Broken.

Too strong, powerful and fast. Broken.

Slightly weaker and can’t run specs but its still too much of a stat stick to be balanced.

Does what it did last gen with fast Set up with Ice Beam to handle the Physical walls it brings in. It also has Tera to be funny now. Will see decent amounts of usage.

Its Goodra but loses Bulk and speed for Spatk and Steel STAB, probably a sidegrade since the Sylveon matchup is far better but overall Goodra seems more useful.

Too Strong, has good coverage, stat stick. Broken.

What it did last gen but worse since it lost Toxic and gained a counter in Cyclizar. But will probably love Tera to surprise the glass cannons that think they can kill it with a super effective STAB move.

Its Bulkyish but physical STABs are very lackluster with Phantom Force and Zen Headbutt, probably outclassed by other Psychics.

It is a Espeon abuser with excellent coverage and good bulk while taking excellent advantage of Tera, will always see use for those reasons and its also one of the few mons who keep Knock.

Stats are bad Stabs don’t exist, Abilities are useless. Stone Axe doesn’t justify using this.

Stat stick, too powerful, bulky and has good coverage. Broken.

Bulky Sheer Force abuser, will see usage due to that and its great bulk but outclassed defensively by its Therian form.

It might have lost Toxic, Knock Off and Defog but its still a glue and one of the few mixed bulky Grounds still out there while supporting a typing that has minimal vulnerability to hazards and will see usage due to its unique properties.

Hustle doesn’t fix this up, though its stats are perfect for Victory Dance set up it takes too long to get going while having low offensive stats and bad defense at the beginning. Its Bad.

Its the same mon as last gen but got Spikes and Play Rough on top of it so this might end up being broken this round. If it doesn’t end up being broken than it’ll be a good glue and a very deadly set-up sweper thanks to its typing, movepool and ability.

It has good stats, SD and coverage but its STAB’s being the slightly buffed Zen Headbutt which still flinches around as much as a normal Iron Head and Facade without Guts or Quick Feet is dissapointing. Might see use.

Its just bad now, has a bunch of special bulk. Don’t use Relic Song.

Nothing changes. Bad.

Its the same and lost its Recovery Moves on top of a bunch more moves. Niche.

Too Bulky, has set up, good coverage. Broken.

It does what it did last gen but now without Mystical Fire, Defog, Toxic and Scorching Sands. One of the biggest losers here, but still has great bulk with a good typing and reliable recovery without being passive, so it will see usage.

This just looks and feels like Standard Honchkrow but with more speed, more bulk and U-Turn in return for having a useless Ability, ZERO Movepool outside of BB, Sucker and U-Turn. Very Niche.

It gets a bit faster but its offenses are still pretty average 100/105 and coverage and access to STAB Knock can get you so far. Niche.

A specially based set might work on some rain teams but for a mon whose stabs aren’t boosted by rain this just seems underwhelming offensively. Very Niche.

and They both do similar thing compared to Dialga-O but they have an offensively good STAB in Water so they are probably more broken but due to the lack of some utility options less centralizing.

This continues on doing what it di last gen being an already bulky Pokemon that gets its defense doubled to essentially beat every physical attacker, Stall exclusive. Good.

This doesn’t do anything interesting offensively or defensively. Outclassed by base Raichu as a wish passer. Unviable.

Too bulky, insane coverage, set up, utility. Broken but offensive stats are bad and lacks reliable recovery so this could be a candidate for an un-ban.

Same, late game cleaner, doesn’t have the power to use tera steel flash cannon. Niche but will see use as a cleaner.

Very bulky pivot capable of clearing hazards while using Transisistor and Thunder Cage set damage to make progress that gets walled by Ground Types. It will see usage due to the fact that it has only one weakness and can sponge hits coming from all around for more offensive teams while working as Hazard control.

Grassy Glide doesn’t exist and without it Rillaboom doesn’t do anything, not worth using for its terrain. Bad.

It can get up Spikes against Espeon and has a good typing in to Gholdengo and Ting-Lu counterplay but its really weak and without recovery it isn’t bulky enough to be consistent defensively. Time will tell if this ends up being niche or useful.

It can do Nasty Plot stuff alongside its QD-QC combination to be uncompetitive but it won’t end up being more than a HO threat due to its horrible HP stat. Matchup fish.

Very similar to its siblings in being mostly a HO threat behind screens and it works similarly to Slowking-K in being a Belly Drum sweeper but Slowking-G has a higher powered STAB in Gunk Shot. Matchup fish.

Unless the goal is to build a PP stalling team there isn’t much reason to use this mon since it doesn’t do much except being specially bulky and spreading poison and T-Spikes. Bad.

Similar to last gen by being a very physically bulky Pokemon that is also one of the only 100% safe Chansey switch ins. Stall/Fat Balance exclusive but with the Chansey line getting Thief this guy hates losing its item which will cause its viability to be slightly lower than before.

Its a SFLO mon but it doesn’t have a SF boosted STAB move while having bad speed and horrible physical bulk. Really niche pick on Webs teams which are already niche.

Its a bulky set up mon utilizing its bulk to set up and slowly win but it it has 4MSS syndrome since it wants all of Bulk Up/NP, Electric STAB, Move that hits grounds, Rest and Sleep Talk. Takes too long to get going.

The Pokemon above but has more defense for less special bulk. A sidegrade.

The above 2 pokemon but utilizes Flying STAB instead of Electric moves and doesn’t need a second coverage move so it has no 4MSS but a worse typing. A sidegrade.

The above 3 are all sidegrades of each other filling a very small role that Prankster allows them to do but their competition basically makes them bad.

The bulky utility mon that just doesn’t die and and pivots all around. It lost Knock Off, Defog and Toxic which basically forces its sets to go a set up move due to the loss of all the utility moves. Still a amazing blanket check and a dominant Pokemon.

This doesn’t have anything that seperates it from Spectrier that makes it worth using. Bad.

Balance breaker that takes advantage of its massive speed stat, Guts and good special attack making it a cool stall breaker that works decently well until you hit a wall with good bulk on both sides. Niche.

and They are special attackers without special moves and they don’t have good enough stats to be usable with that kind of a special movepool. Bad.

It isn’t good at anything except Atk and Spatk but its at that awkward speed tier where its too slow for normal play while being too fast for TR. Coverage is also eh. Very Niche.

It does basically what it does in the standard meta, trading 10 base speed for 10 bas Spatk. Steam Eruption is a really good move. Not different but still good.

This doesn’t do anything special its purpose is making, Eviolite Stantler possible as a very niche bulky option.

Too strong, coverage is really good, typing and special bulk is really good. Broken.

The Above but more Spdef and HP (?) Broken.

The Above but its a Fighting type that abuses great bulk alongside IronPress and Tera Dark Crunch to be broken.

The above but its stronger offensively and has a better defensive typing for less HP (?).

The good old Mon, excellent defensively, only really loses Defog and will continue being a important part of the metagame with its excellent typing.

It’s in the group of Fighting types that can do Spdef Bulk Up but its outclassed by Hawlucha due to Hawlucha having Roost.

This wasn’t very viable last gen and now its outclassed by Wo-Chien outside of U-Turn and Jungle Healing. Not really viable.

 

[flying moose]

Check out the new banner art by b-torterra, featuring bulky Dragapult and nuke Torkoal.

 

[Velcroc]

Hey, this thread hasn't been active in 4 months so I'll give my contributions on the new mons coming in with the DLC and seeing how they'll do in the metagame. I think it is timely for 2 reasons: 1) OMoTM is around the corner and Flipped isn't doing too bad with preliminary votes; and 2) a little project I was working on Google Sheets for the past week.

I've created a sheet that helps condense the information about flipped by providing the actual flipped stats instead of doing mental conversions in your head - which I made for Flipped mashups, but is still convenient for vanilla flipped (even if my strat works fairly well). I'm bringing this up because while it is still WIP, I think it helped me organise my thoughts in this first impressions post. I might clean it up and release it soon if there is any interest here, but rn I kinda want to add a feature that makes it more than just crawling through the builder - like a MadLibs feature for a teambuilding assistant.

But that's all in the idea generation stage at the moment. Without further ado, here my impressions on the new Pokemon in this format:

Poison typing is always interesting but Arbok lacks the stats to leverage them despite high spec def and intimidate having some synergy with each other.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of either of these Pokemon considering that their movepool is heavily physical leaning and they lack a deep special movepool to work with. Plus their stats are pretty abyssmal with any priority being enough to put 'em to sleep. This goes double for the 65/25 Alolan Sandslash.

While Clefable does lose its optimised bulk, it does gain neat attacking stats and a relatively high speed tier. I know this was fairly highly last gen so I tried to pick a rank that reflected that since very little seems to have changed for it.



Alola Tales is good. The change from hail to snow is especially welcomed given that many mons don't have the luxury of having recovery here so chip stacks, but also because it boots alola tale's own defense. 100/81 is serviceable but 100/81 with a 1.5x boost is pretty solid. Add to the fact that it can set up veil for more frailer sweepers and I think it definitely has a place in the metagame.

Ninetales is gonna depend on how well the proto-mons abuse sun. Flipped has historically had utter bottom of the barrel gunk for chlorophyll mons, and defensive fires, so I'm not sure if this mon is as good as its tropical tundra cousin.

Both of these guys have the G1 mon syndrome where their stats are middle grounds that get translated even worse into flipped.

Nevertheless, 90 offenses could be interesting for Poliwrath as a swift swim sweeper. Rn it's probably the strongest special swift swimmer and the second strongest physical swift swimmer. Rain has an uphill battle considering g9 flipped is dragon city with Dnite, Pult and even the odd kommo-o running around, and Poliwrath definitely isn't a strong Pokemon by any means. However, I think there could be a place for the frog in the tier.

Victreebel On paper it's a decent Sylveon counter, but it folds to Tera Fairy. However, it checks the other variants fairly well. >100/100 bulk plus strength sap is something to take a look at.

You know these guys were almost going into the D-ranks. But do me a favour, go to team builder, pick OU and sort by defense. Yeah... This is what we're working with here. We will touch on the Mons here later, but right now I want you to focus on what is missing rather than what is there. If you pay close attention, you will note the absence of Rhyperior AND Regirock AND Aggron. All the things that outclass Golem. That alone bumps up the niche of both to a solid B (despite their weaknesses to a certain marten). Alolem also has 2 solid abilities. Magnet Pull traps steel types so something like Sylv in the back can clean up. Galvanise is more situational but Electric Hyper beam is most definitely a nuke if you play your cards right. Rock / Ground does seem more consistent than Rock / Electric however.

40 HP drags down 95/80 bulk with eviolite. The type combo and special attacking stat is serviceable but I'm not sure how valuable these traits are considering the horrible 4MSS this mon has due to the absolute dearth of options it has.

I think this stat distribution is slightly better than it would be in standard. It doubles down on the existing design of this mon as a physically defensive calm minder. The typing is always valuable for xyz physically offensive water type and it's signature move might as well be scald given how long Flipped games can be. Also, this mon abuses the heck out of screens.

As good as the speed is, the special coverage is absolutely gutted in this mon. This is like a poor man's Iron Hands, but at least Iron Hands is ballin with that juicy 155 speed stat and sufficient coverage with Tera Blast. 88 is the speed is bang on average, and 128 special defense does deserve a nod. But reduced physical attack and that miniscule defense stat raises cause for concern.

As bad as the typing is for what it is trying to do, I can see this mon doing something. I would put it on the same level as okidogi but it does have notable advantages that transcend man's best frenemy. Firstly, it is a poison type. If you have played this tier or even daydreamed about it like I have, you would understand the enormity of this statement since one of the deadliest mons here starts with 's' and ends with 'ylveon'. Secondly, it gets nice options in Taunt, Parting Shot, U-turn, Fake Out, Toxic (!), etc. It also gets unique tools for something like Dragapult with Poltergeist. However, it doesn't really get a good STAB move with Poison and Psychic having like 2 good physical moves between the both of them. I also think somewhere along the line, Game Freak forgot this was a Psychic type and didn't give it Zen Headbutt. Odd specimen, but I am intrigued

Luckily, Game Freak remembered this was a Fairy type and gave it Play Rough. Poison typing, yadda yadda yadda. 99/70 bulk is disappointing since it's cleanly 2HKO'd by band Return and barely lives Pixie Plate DEdge into Quick Attack (Gl if rocks are up). As a fairy type physical attacker, competition is as intense as it gets. Especially since there's a catch-22 here with any coverage you fit not hitting Gholdengo or standard fairy type checks (think moth, volcarona, etc.). Toxic chain shenanigans could be interesting.



The ranking is Wellspring >/= Hearthflame > Cornerstone > Teal

Teal is gonna need a really solid justification why I'd use it over any other defensive grass and it's mask-bearing ilk. Cornerstone has promise but Rock/Grass is meh in this format. Sturdy is also far more situational than the other two abilities. Hearthflame and Wellspring seem neck and neck but the defensive utility Wellspring offers plus it's ability upon Terstalizing pushes it as the better choice. Hearthflame is a defensive fire type that doesn't check Pixie Plate Sylv let alone Banded. I'm sorry. WaterPon's typing plus special defense boost seem more in line with what the mon is trying to accomplish, and water absorb is a GOATed ability.

Weezing-G is simply better than Weezing - hands down. That's just simple calculus. Now, the question is: Is Weez-g good? I'm going to say yes. You have a good typing into a lot of physical and special walls, plus Neutralizing Gas is a surprisingly good offensive ability with the ability to deny Regenerator.

Chansey is legal, but I reckon given how the pace of the metagame has picked up, Lax could have a niche. Also it gets encore now and can thus punish passive walls for passive plays.

Nice Tidy Up you got there, shame about the stats.

Tinted Lens with Normal / Flying could have a use. But there are stronger Normal types available in this tier.

Better webbers. Better Poisons. Better bugs. Better luck next time.

I genuinely don't know. Seems like a worse version of Pelipper as a Drizzle breaker since it lacks the Weather Ball + Hurricane Combo, but being faster is definitely a plus.

A casualty of the Shell Smash ban. Rip, you would have been a worse torkoal.

Most NFEs aren't good. These are no exception.

Flipping a poor stat spread only makes this worse.

Okay as a swift swimmer. Definitely wanting for a bit more power but it'll do.

Windrider is a lot more situational here. Meowscarada is tankier on both sides of the spectrum as well. Could make a funny Mandibuzz counter.

Worse stats plus little need for their prescence.

It was always frail and slow in standard play, but now it's also piss weak.

125 Attack and fairy decent speed make it an interesting Dragon Dancer. It does however have coverage issues with most water immunes handily dealing with it. But there is always the option to cheese with Hypnosis.

There is potential here. I could definitely see myself running it as a one-off but the attacking stat doesn't compensate for the pretty low bulk I feel. Probably look elsewhere for Psychic types.

Beautiful typing and non-butcherable stats. Doesn't like Gholdengo being here but if we're making relative comparison with DLC mons, I think it stands out. Functions as a Stealth Rocker, Scarfer and probably has the best typing and spread for a wish-pass mon. I think if we were looking at the metagame overall this would be in the B ranks but here I'm putting it a little higher.

Waited all this time to get shell smash only for the move to be banned in Flipped. Tera Blast is still a good option for expanding coverage so all is not lost.

This could have been better in Gen 8. Stat-line is like Tauros-Paldea-Blaze but with an actual defense stat. I think Infernape's movepool is the saving grace here with options like Knock Off, Will O' Wisp, U-turn, Slack Off, Iron Fist Mach Punch and Stealth Rocks. Being a Fire type that doesn't check Sylveon is a big deal when you're in the builder. It certainly gained options in Gen 9, but the metagame in Gen 8 seemed a lot more palatable to it overall.

Swords Dance Empoleon could be something that works but it doesn't appreciate Game Freak removing Defiant in exchange for Competitive. The typing is still decent to make up for it and the fact that it breaks a lot of walls with typing alone could be something to consider.

Typing and Movepool do not synergise with random 115 HP and 100 Special Defense.

A noticeable drop in special attack is not good news for a Pokemon that already struggles with power creep as is.

Yet another casualty of high defense --> bad special movepool, and really low special attack --> bad defense

Good attacking stats, but very slow to make them work. It's also faster than I would like it to be for trick room. Could be interesting with magnet pull, who knows.

I have no clue what this stat spread is ought to do. I think by virtue of its typing and speed it can make a fairly good cleaner, but the attacking stats are a bit too low for my tastes. Plus the typing isn't doing it any favours.

Has the same issue as probopass but Poltergeist is a lot, lot more spammable and the niche it has as a TR sweeper sounds much better. Even for something like Chansey and Lax, what is stopping it from clicking something like Brick Break and targeting their low physical bulk.

Phione is never going to be good. Manaphy did gain a boost in power thanks to it getting Hydro Pump. Take Heart is also a nice spin on bulky set up variants. Tera Flying can even do funny stuff like nuking Waterpon but I reckon Energy Ball would be a more consistent option.

We could see this mon being unbanned. My main issue surrounds Nasty Plot and its serviceable bulk and attacking stats. There is also the issue of hypnosis being a move that robs HP off defensive main stays.

Sky forme is probably a bit too much for the metagame right now. Base Shaymin's typing isn't that good and it doesn't have anything flashy over other grass types.

Non-existent special movepool. Iron hands does this better.

Stat spread still leaves a lot to be desired and the typing offers very little defensive utility.

Mediocre defensive stats and bad offenses. The typing is good which is a shame.

This is a funny physically defensive mon. The bulk is better than something like Gholdengo and it has the same advantage of being a Sylveon check. However, Gholdengo's recover is soo much better. Will O' Wisp and Fire Immunity do give it an advantage over Gholdengo so I wouldn't count it out.

GOAT. Regenerator special wall with all the utility that one could ask for.

A strong special attacker with good coverage. I could take or leave its typing but it can put in some work as it switches fairly well into something like Espeon.

If Trevenant kept its regular stats, it could be cool here. Shame it got a stat spread that goes nowhere.

This could have been something if it was as fast as its dex entry states. 43 HP is seriously bad. On the plus side, it is the fastest webber that isn't Kriketune.

With how slim the option for Sticky Webs are, I'm inclined to put this higher. Vikavolt seems to have more compelling reasons to use it being faster and stronger, but Ribombee has a deeper utility movepool it can tap into. For example, stun spore offers utility and Skill Swap enables it to set up webs on Sylveon.

Kommo-o was ranked lower than I expected last gen and I attribute this to the metagame being more unfavourable to it at them time. However with Tera, Kommo-o can change its type to steel and circumvent its crippling weakness to Quick Attack. That alone puts it higher.

Might ruffle a few feathers, but I think this mon makes up for its low bulk with its crazy speed stat and defenses. Tera Fairy Moonblast can also help it set up on Mienshao. This thing can take on a surprising amount of hits once it sheds its normal typing.

Not gonna put in the effort for these two.


I'll definitely overrate or underrate a few Pokemon since no first impression will ever end up being perfect. But hopefully the effort I put into this will be well worth the dividends. Especially considering this was a 2 hour time sink.

Visualised

 

[flying moose]

With both DLCs out, the council has voted on all the new pokemon and moves that have been banned in OU, as well as a few elements that have historically been banned in Flipped. As a result of this, we have banned the moves Shed Tail and Last Respects, and have unbanned Shell Smash and Psychic Surge. The council subsequently voted on every individual Shell Smash user. Terapagos, Shaymin-Sky, Magearna, Torkoal, and Cloyster are now banned, along with all the box legendaries. All other pokemon that have been banned in OU are now free to use in Flipped.

Tagging Kris so he can implement these bans. Thanks so much for all your coding work.




Reasonings on the majority of bans/unbans below (I don't think Shed Tail and Last Respects need elaboration):

Psychic Surge: This was originally banned during the metagame's uber-offensive launch in which glass cannons ran amok, and the priority-immunity that this allowed ended up being broken. For a long time now though, stall and balance playstyles have been very usable or even superior, and as such it was voted 2:1 to unban this.

Shell Smash: This move had similarly made a whole swath of pokemon completely unbearable and was banned due to being the common factor, but now we have some pokemon that are clearly fine with the move as well as plenty of fat walls, and we want to move away from movepool bans as much as possible following OM tiering policy (despite the Shed Tail and Last Respects bans which are common exceptions). 2:1 unban.

This fragile but insanely destructive behemoth was considered for a ban even with just Choice items during Gen 8's second ladder. There are a few good checks like AV Cyclizar, but with Shell Smash in its arsenal, we felt that Torkoal was too oppressive to stay usable. 3-0 ban.

180 Special Attack at +2 with great offensive typing is just too powerful. None of the Water type special walls have the recovery or movepool to reliably stop this thing. 3:0 ban.

Though its immediate power is much lower than in standard, Shaymin-S is still fast for the tier and is now incredibly bulky, still allowing it to unfairly terrorize teams with Serene Grace Seed Flare. 3:0 ban.

This isn't much changed from OU, with very optimized stats, typing, and movepool to pull off multiple destructive sets. 2:1 ban.




Below in summary are all of the OU-banned pokemon that are not banned in Flipped. All except Deo-A were 3:0 unbans.
Post DLC:

Pre-existing:




Finally here is a watchlist of things that one or more council members have expressed concern about:

Watchlist

The king of Flipped may be broken this time around with Ground or Water Tera Blast allowing it to blow through the Fire, Poison, and Steel pokemon that would otherwise stop it. We'll see if the masses discover some reliable counterplay but are prepared for a quickban when this becomes playable.
Terastalization:Alternatively, there is some support in the council (1:2) for banning Tera outright. Many OMs have done this, though these are mainly metas with a high level of pokemon customization, which result in Tera adding too much chaos. Flipped does not fit this description--the options at each pokemon's disposal are very clearly defined. On the other hand, the optimization opportunities afforded by Tera are arguably more acute in Flipped, due to pokemon working with movepools that were not designed for their statlines.

Disgustingly bulky on both sides with a big utility movepool. Even the strongest super effective sweepers have trouble breaking through it, which was enough to garner it a 1:2 ban vote, but for now it will stay in the tier due to being extremely passive Taunt bait.

Of all the unbans, these two are the ones who retain the most of their power. Rage Fist is an extremely powerful move especially on a fast pokemon, though its bad physical bulk makes it much harder to beef up Rage Fist to the ungodly levels of power that got it banned in OU. Baxcalibur has much less initial power but is also faster, though more vulnerable to priority.

Has the combo of excellent attack and incredible defenses on both sides, but is hindered by an awful typing, no boosting moves, and healing limited to Drain Punch. Another strong Tera contender.
Cyclizar joins Mienshao as an incredible RegenVest utility pivot, without the same exploitable vulnerability to Psyshock. If the two of them in conjunction start to invalidate special attackers, we may need to take a look at them.

These appear to be the most threatening Shell Smashers (Blastoise garnered one abstention vote due to its potential for mixed sets) but they all have limited movepool (disregarding Tera) and levels of power that don't appear to be unwallable.

 

[kenn]

Hey there! Just wanted to pop in here with Flipped winning August's LCotM (congrats flying moose btw) and talk a bit about what the room has been discussing and give some personal thoughts on some things.

First off, I started compiling a WIP list of all the relevant Speed tiers (will try to update with more as time goes on if flying moose wants it as a resource).

Relevant Speed Tiers

ZOOM! (Tier 0)
658 (250 Base Speed, Positive Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
599 (250 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
460 (160 Base Speed, Positive Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
449 (155 Base Speed, Positive Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
419 (160 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
409 (155 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)

Blazin' Fast (Tier 1)
396 (91 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 184 EVs, +1)
394 (130 Base Speed, Positive Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
383 / (125 Base Speed, Positive Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
359 (130 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
357 (113 Base Speed, Positive Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
349 / (125 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)
325 (113 Base Speed, Neutral Nature, 31 IVs, 252 EVs)

On Fire (Tier 2)
WIP

Secondly, I have some sets I feel like will be fun to mess with and explore once the ladder goes LIVE

Set

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Morning Sun

New stats: 110/95/130/60/65/65
Eli mentioned this was around in Gen 8 and thought it would be cool to see this play out. While it is using its weaker Special Attack, Stored Power gives it plenty of oomph once it gets a few boosts up that also beef its lower defensive stat. Also with Tera, Draining Kiss becomes 60 BP and is a good recovery STAB post-Tera that nails Dark types.

Set

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

This seems pretty similar to the standard DNite set but it seems a little more capable of garnering multiple boosts in this meta with a slightly better Speed tier. The EVs outspeed base 130s after a Dragon Dance while giving as much power as possible.

Set

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 140 Def / 136 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bleakwind Storm
- Heat Wave
- Knock Off
- U-turn

The EVs and moves can be super customizable for whatever team this mon is on but being a slow pivot with Regen and a really good base 121 HP with 110/100 bulk looks super fun to me.

Set

Diancie @ Power Herb
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Meteor Beam
- Moonblast
- Earth Power

Something that doesn't change too much from regular play but rather only gets better is OTR Diancie. With all these new blazing fast mons, having that flipped on its head seems like this will have a solid niche even if its bulk is slightly worse due to it having better offensive stats.

I have some more ideas percolating in my brain, but I'll hold off for now. I am excited to mess around with this OM as much as I can and I will try to work on the Speed tiers a bit more if I don't forget lol.

 

[KaenSoul]

With both DLCs out, the council has voted on all the new pokemon and moves that have been banned in OU, as well as a few elements that have historically been banned in Flipped. As a result of this, we have banned the moves Shed Tail and Last Respects, and have unbanned Shell Smash and Psychic Surge. The council subsequently voted on every individual Shell Smash user. Terapagos, Shaymin-Sky, Magearna, Torkoal, and Cloyster are now banned, along with all the box legendaries. All other pokemon that have been banned in OU are now free to use in Flipped.

Tagging Kris so he can implement these bans. Thanks so much for all your coding work.




Reasonings on the majority of bans/unbans below (I don't think Shed Tail and Last Respects need elaboration):

Psychic Surge: This was originally banned during the metagame's uber-offensive launch in which glass cannons ran amok, and the priority-immunity that this allowed ended up being broken. For a long time now though, stall and balance playstyles have been very usable or even superior, and as such it was voted 2:1 to unban this.

Shell Smash: This move had similarly made a whole swath of pokemon completely unbearable and was banned due to being the common factor, but now we have some pokemon that are clearly fine with the move as well as plenty of fat walls, and we want to move away from movepool bans as much as possible following OM tiering policy (despite the Shed Tail and Last Respects bans which are common exceptions). 2:1 unban.

This fragile but insanely destructive behemoth was considered for a ban even with just Choice items during Gen 8's second ladder. There are a few good checks like AV Cyclizar, but with Shell Smash in its arsenal, we felt that Torkoal was too oppressive to stay usable. 3-0 ban.

180 Special Attack at +2 with great offensive typing is just too powerful. None of the Water type special walls have the recovery or movepool to reliably stop this thing. 3:0 ban.

Though its immediate power is much lower than in standard, Shaymin-S is still fast for the tier and is now incredibly bulky, still allowing it to unfairly terrorize teams with Serene Grace Seed Flare. 3:0 ban.

This isn't much changed from OU, with very optimized stats, typing, and movepool to pull off multiple destructive sets. 2:1 ban.




Below in summary are all of the OU-banned pokemon that are not banned in Flipped. All except Deo-A were 3:0 unbans.
Post DLC:

Pre-existing:




Finally here is a watchlist of things that one or more council members have expressed concern about:

Watchlist

The king of Flipped may be broken this time around with Ground or Water Tera Blast allowing it to blow through the Fire, Poison, and Steel pokemon that would otherwise stop it. We'll see if the masses discover some reliable counterplay but are prepared for a quickban when this becomes playable.
Terastalization:Alternatively, there is some support in the council (1:2) for banning Tera outright. Many OMs have done this, though these are mainly metas with a high level of pokemon customization, which result in Tera adding too much chaos. Flipped does not fit this description--the options at each pokemon's disposal are very clearly defined. On the other hand, the optimization opportunities afforded by Tera are arguably more acute in Flipped, due to pokemon working with movepools that were not designed for their statlines.

Disgustingly bulky on both sides with a big utility movepool. Even the strongest super effective sweepers have trouble breaking through it, which was enough to garner it a 1:2 ban vote, but for now it will stay in the tier due to being extremely passive Taunt bait.

Of all the unbans, these two are the ones who retain the most of their power. Rage Fist is an extremely powerful move especially on a fast pokemon, though its bad physical bulk makes it much harder to beef up Rage Fist to the ungodly levels of power that got it banned in OU. Baxcalibur has much less initial power but is also faster, though more vulnerable to priority.

Has the combo of excellent attack and incredible defenses on both sides, but is hindered by an awful typing, no boosting moves, and healing limited to Drain Punch. Another strong Tera contender.
Cyclizar joins Mienshao as an incredible RegenVest utility pivot, without the same exploitable vulnerability to Psyshock. If the two of them in conjunction start to invalidate special attackers, we may need to take a look at them.

These appear to be the most threatening Shell Smashers (Blastoise garnered one abstention vote due to its potential for mixed sets) but they all have limited movepool (disregarding Tera) and levels of power that don't appear to be unwallable.

Just want to mention Terapagos is missing from the OP, double check everything before a mistake is made :x

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Isn't Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N and Etarnatus a bit too much? They all seem like a step above the competition, their stats are crazy.


150/20/180/20/180/50

150/50/150/50/150/50

130/95/145/95/85/140

Sure there's not a lto offensive prescence there, but they can setup with cosmic power/calm mind, spread hazards etc.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I agree with Imperator Romanum. Deoxys-Attack and Eternatus should be banned for their amazing bulk, as well as Eternatus being able to Toxic stall Pokemon and use Flamethrower to chip down Steels. Even supereffective moves (especially with Deoxys-Attack) cannot take them down.

252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Tera Water Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Attack: 290-342 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Water Bubble Tera Water Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Attack: 194-230 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Ting-Lu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Attack: 152-182 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Umbreon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Attack: 122-146 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Regice Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Attack: 85-102 (16.8 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Tera Water Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 171-202 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 177-208 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Regice Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 204-240 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If these two Pokemon are banned, I also propose banning Araquanid for being able to 2HKO almost any Pokemon under Trick Room besides those two.

 

[flying moose]

Writing this real quick on my phone before work.

Terapagos and Eternatus were both oversights on my part. They were meant to be on the ban list. Thank you all for pointing this out. My apologies. It is now updated.

Thank you for the community feedback regarding Deoxys. The council hasn’t yet had a chance to properly convene since LC was announced, but our last vote was a 1-2 ban for Deoxys-A. I was on the edge but thought we could give it a chance, but am now convinced and am changing my vote to ban. As such Deoxys-A is now banned. Want to do this now before things get too underway.

Can’t take any action yet on regular Deoxys as we haven’t any votes on that yet, but we will discuss it.

Tagging Kris. Thank you and sorry if you had already finished coding this.

 

[Samtendo09]

Speaking of …

50 / 200 / 100 / 100 / 50 / 80

Unlike ‘s 200 SpA, Regice’s 200 Attack can be utilized for Ice Spinner and Thunder Punch, alongside Earthquake and Brick Break / Hammer Arm / Superpower for coverage. 80 Base Speed is awkward to work with, but Ice is a potent STAB and not a lot can switch into BoltBeam coverage. If setting up with Curse, walls that aren’t banworthy or already banned won’t stand a chance, and no safe switch-in, though it can be revenge killed or outsped by special attackers due to awful special bulk.

 

[zezaktest]

Hoopa unbound is a very strong physical threat. It makes up for its average physical attack for absurd defensive stats. The fact its speed and hp are the same helps it not suffer from low hp, high defenses. Its average hp and great defenses. You can safely invest into attack and speed and live most unboosted (i.e stat boosts, not items and abilities) neutral hits. This tier doesn't have a lot of physically defensive pokemon with recovery that resist dark. They rely a lot on just raw stat. I made a really shit team but this Hoopa has been performing quite well.

 

[shadowpea]

Rhyperior @ Power Herb
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Meteor Beam
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
/ surf / flamethrower

letsgo lightlingrod

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe or something
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electro Shot
- Flash Cannon
- Body Press
- Dragon Pulse

this thing actually got buffed. in exchange for slightly less physdef you get 105 sdef which turns it into even more of a tank