Feraligatr

Dragon Dance is much, much better than Agility. Agility makes him way too easy to wall, as 105 base attack isn't really cutting it even with Encourage. It's much more feasible to sweep with 1 DD than it is to sweep with one Agility.
 
Oh, no doubt. The attack boost is invaluable for sweeping, and definitely superior. But you'd be surprised--Encourage picks up more slack than you think. I really do mean it when I say it 2HKOs the bulkier things, and Feraligatr pretty much laughs at priority moves trying to stop it. Nattorei for sure stops it cold, though.

The real point though, is if it ends up being our only speed boosting option, it certainly won't be bad. We're not guaranteed to get Dragon Dance on Encourage!Gator.
 
^ This

LO Encouraged Max Attack Waterfall does 29%-34% to 252/252 Bold Cresselia, outside of the rain.

In the rain, it does 55%-65% to Max/Max Bold Cresselia

LO Max Attack Meteor Mash does 34-40% her. It also takes LO Recoil, unlike Gatr.

All this on a Pokemon with up to 510 speed (vs Metagross's 478, if both have speed neutral natures.)

Dragon Dance would give it ridiculous power, but don't underestimate Encourage; it alone gives Feraligatr an effective Attack Stat of 440 (not counting LO).
 
Swords Dance is super powerful, holy crap lol. Crunch, after the Encourage boost, is more powerful and gives better coverage alongside Waterfall (in OU, for the most part) without recoil. Waterfall is your main STAB move, obviously. The last slot is filler, but Rock Slide takes priority over Ice Punch because it nails Gyarados (still boosted by Encourage), while still hitting Salamence and Dragonite. You should switch out of Sazadora anyway, since Specs Draco Meteor can OHKO.

+2 Encourage and Life Orb-boosted Waterfall vs.

252/240+ Skarmory: 71.3% - 84.4%
12/0 Empoleon: 74.4% - 87.5%

+2 Encourage and Life Orb-boosted Crunch vs.

252/228+ Dusknoir: 112.2% - 132.7%
252/252+ Cresselia: 79.7% - 94.1%
252/220+ Celebi: 102% - 120.3%
188/252+ Vaporeon: 60.9% - 71.9%
252/252+ Suicune: 45% - 53.2%
252/168+ Rotom-W: 67.1% - 79.3%
4/0 Gyarados (after Intimidate: +1): 76.1% - 89.7%

+2 Encourage and Life Orb-boosted Rock Slide vs.

248/252+ Gyarados (after Intimidate: +1): 83% - 97.7%
252/0 Dragonite (Multi Scale): 52.8% - 62%
" " (Multi Scale not activated): 105.7% - 124.4%

Problem is... he's slow. He'd be fast with a Jolly nature (by OU standards- outspeeding offensive Heatran is pretty good), but he needs the power Adamant provides. He has the bulk to take a hit, though. Aqua Jet is an option because Crunch can handle offensive Gyarados, but then Dragonite can do pretty much whatever it wants (although DD variants win with Roosting as you Rock Slide anyway).
 
Problem is... he's slow. He'd be fast with a Jolly nature (by OU standards- outspeeding offensive Heatran is pretty good), but he needs the power Adamant provides. He has the bulk to take a hit, though, and it'll likely put him into Torrent range. Aqua Jet is an option because Crunch can handle offensive Gyarados, but then Dragonite can do pretty much whatever it wants (although DD variants win with Roosting as you Rock Slide anyway).
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It doesnt get him in torrent range if its running encourage..
 
Blue Ditto said:
Nattorei for sure stops it cold, though.
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Does it? Most Gatr are going to be carrying Ice Punch/Fang (depending on what's legal), I'd like to see what kind of damage output Feraligatr is getting against Natt with Encourage/LO, Encourage/LO/+1, +2, etc. Can anyone maybe get us some calcs to confirm that Nattorei is always gonna block Feraligatr? :0
 
Banryu said:
Does it? Most Gatr are going to be carrying Ice Punch/Fang (depending on what's legal), I'd like to see what kind of damage output Feraligatr is getting against Natt with Encourage/LO, Encourage/LO/+1, +2, etc. Can anyone maybe get us some calcs to confirm that Nattorei is always gonna block Feraligatr? :0
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+2 Encourage, Life Orb boosted Ice Punch does 55.7% - 65.6% to 252/60 Careful Nattorei. Power Whip does good damage, but I not enough to OHKO in return.
 
If you're worried about Nattorei, just run Superpower.
Loses coverage, attack and Encourage boost, but you're still murdering that spikey ball or something.
 
M BLADE said:
If you're worried about Nattorei, just run Superpower.
Loses coverage, attack and Encourage boost, but you're still murdering that spikey ball or something.
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I don't think just hitting Nattorei is worth losing the coverage and reliability of Ice Punch. :0 I just wanted to see if it could get relatively-perfect coverage with its three attacking moves, or if it has the inevitable curse of all sweepers that is being walled by one or two key threats.

Speaking of which, I just realized that Waterfall/Ice Punch/Crunch is all resisted by Empoleton (resisted, yes, but walled...? ...not sure). D; B'aww. I guess Crunch isn't entirely as good as I thought it was...
 
Jiggy said:
Unless the movesets of the Kanto and Hoenn starters have been revealed and I missed it, there's no guarantee that Feraligatr won't have Dragon Dance even if the starters do always turn out to be male. Regular Dream World Pokemon frequently have one of their moveslots filled with an egg move, fourth-gen tutor move, or fourth-gen TM move as a special thing--just check the thread. Just saying that I wouldn't pin my hopes on having Dragon Dance, but it's not out of the question.
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Croagunk had Poison Sting and Espeon had Helping Hand. When you get the event-only DW pokémon, there's no silly minigame, you just click the tree/bush and it comes out.

I'm not counting on them getting egg moves anymore.
 
Max Attack LO Encouraged +0 to 252/252 Impish Nattorie
Ice Fang = 19-22%
Ice Punch (if possible) = 22-26%
Waterfall = 17-20%, and in the rain, it does 26-30%
Ice Beam from a Naughty Gatr = 24-28%

Meanwhile, Nattorie is Power Whipping the shit out of Feraligatr. Almost makes you want to run Super Power (almost). Swords Dance is another story, though.

Yeah, I'd say that it's stopped. Most Pokemon have a counter.

Feraligatr will probably be banned from UU this Gen.
 
2 Superpowers with the attack drop is almost as powerful as a neutral Waterfall in the rain backed by Encourage.

120 BP Superpower + 90 BP Superpower [-1 Attack = 75% damage, 75% of 120=90] = 210

Waterfall = 120 x 1.3 [Encourage] = 156 x 1.5 [Rain] = 234

So, even after an Attack drop, Superpower still does pretty good on it's own. Plus, if used with Swords Dance, it aint too bad.
 
hhjj said:
2 Superpowers with the attack drop is almost as powerful as a neutral Waterfall in the rain backed by Encourage.

120 BP Superpower + 90 BP Superpower [-1 Attack = 75% damage, 75% of 120=90] = 210

Waterfall = 120 x 1.3 [Encourage] = 156 x 1.5 [Rain] = 234

So, even after an Attack drop, Superpower still does pretty good on it's own. Plus, if used with Swords Dance, it aint too bad.
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Good point, especially considering Nattorei stomps the shit out of rain teams, it might be nice to just take the attack and defense drop so your other rain sweepers (Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc) can clean up.
 
Anyone else take note that after an Agility, you're faster than Scarfchomp? (499 < 510)
Ice Fang, of course, OHKOs it.

Yache Chomp barely survives Ice Punch, taking 78.6 - 91.4%, a likely OHKO with SR and Spikes. If Gatr gets Ice Punch. :\ Hopefully Haban turns out to be more popular.

Nattorei is also a pain in the ass to Kingdra, so using Superpower makes it more of a team player on rain squads. But maybe it would be better just to use Magnezone on Nattorie. Or even Zoroark.
 
^Yup. It's pretty awesome. You're also outspeeding things like Timid Scarf Sazandra, Scarf Genosect, Swift Swim Ludicolo, and Scarf Kojondo (Adamant). Yachechomp cries, and I've heard that Haban sets are more popular on account of stuff like Specsandra.

Sorry for repeating myself here...

Hm...I was wondering how much speed an Agility set really needed. At 252 and Jolly/Naive, it's outspeeding everything up to Adamant Doryuuzu with Sand Throw, and...it loses quite a bit of power but it should still be enough to punch in a few holes and clean up at the end of the game. At 252 and Adamant/Naughty, it outspeeds everything up to Deoxys-S with a speed boosting nature, so it has enough power to really kick around stuff and is still fast as hell.

But if I decided I only wanted to outspeed Scarf Hihidaruma by a point, I could just use 100 Speed EVs and invest the rest in SAtk--it has a shot at a 2HKO on Physical Skarm with Ice Beam (definite 2HKO with Stealth Rock)--or HP.
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252 in speed is still optimal, though, since Magnezone can still screw over Skarmory and it's more important to not get revenged by Garchomp and Sazandra. But I'm enamored with the idea of it switching in, thinking it's safe, and then getting blasted by Ice Beam.

And I also found out that Pory2 with a Prevo stone is another solid stop outside of rain. Pory2 takes approx 20% damage from Waterfall, traces Encourage, and threatens to KO with Thunderbolt. Ouch.

So like Charlemagne said, Magnezone will be an excellent partner, threatening bulky waters, Nattorei, Skarmory and laughing at Pory2.
 
Blue Ditto said:
^Yup. It's pretty awesome. You're also outspeeding things like Timid Scarf Sazandra, Scarf Genosect, Swift Swim Ludicolo, and Scarf Kojondo (Adamant). Yachechomp cries, and I've heard that Haban sets are more popular on account of stuff like Specsandra.

Sorry for repeating myself here...



252 in speed is still optimal, though, since Magnezone can still screw over Skarmory and it's more important to not get revenged by Garchomp and Sazandra. But I'm enamored with the idea of it switching in, thinking it's safe, and then getting blasted by Ice Beam.

And I also found out that Pory2 with a Prevo stone is another solid stop outside of rain. Pory2 takes approx 20% damage from Waterfall, traces Encourage, and threatens to KO with Thunderbolt. Ouch.

So like Charlemagne said, Magnezone will be an excellent partner, threatening bulky waters, Nattorei, Skarmory and laughing at Pory2.
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God damn you Prevo-Stone...
 
hhjj said:
2 Superpowers with the attack drop is almost as powerful as a neutral Waterfall in the rain backed by Encourage.

120 BP Superpower + 90 BP Superpower [-1 Attack = 75% damage, 75% of 120=90] = 210

Waterfall = 120 x 1.3 [Encourage] = 156 x 1.5 [Rain] = 234

So, even after an Attack drop, Superpower still does pretty good on it's own. Plus, if used with Swords Dance, it aint too bad.
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Pretty sure the first attack drop drops your attack by a third, not a fourth
 
I think Magenton with Pre-evo stone is better than Magnezone. Higher Base Speed, close Special Attack, and with the stone it has better Defense, and Sp. Defense.

It just cannot use Explosion and has less base HP, but who uses Explosion anymore and the lower HP is made up by better defenses.

Without Stone, Scarf Magneton is better than Magenzone due to higher Speed.
So unless you are using Life Orb or Specs, use Magneton, as with Leftovers, the healing doesn't make up for the massive defenses increase.
 
Charlemagne said:
Max Attack LO Encouraged +0 to 252/252 Impish Nattorie
Ice Fang = 19-22%
Ice Punch (if possible) = 22-26%
Waterfall = 17-20%, and in the rain, it does 26-30%
Ice Beam from a Naughty Gatr = 24-28%

Meanwhile, Nattorie is Power Whipping the shit out of Feraligatr. Almost makes you want to run Super Power (almost). Swords Dance is another story, though.

Yeah, I'd say that it's stopped. Most Pokemon have a counter.

Feraligatr will probably be banned from UU this Gen.
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About this. How many Nattorei actually run max defense? Natt's base 116 Special Defense it's lower than it's Defense and since Natt can wall all types of things it isn't unreasonable to think that it will invest more heavily in Sp. Def.

I'm not saying it will never run max defense, I'm just saying that the chances are Nattorei won't be investing all it's EVs in Defense since balanced defense can help it in the long run
 
hhjj said:
I think Magenton with Pre-evo stone is better than Magnezone. Higher Base Speed, close Special Attack, and with the stone it has better Defense, and Sp. Defense.

It just cannot use Explosion and has less base HP, but who uses Explosion anymore and the lower HP is made up by better defenses.

Without Stone, Scarf Magneton is better than Magenzone due to higher Speed.
So unless you are using Life Orb or Specs, use Magneton, as with Leftovers, the healing doesn't make up for the massive defenses increase.
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Hmm... Game Freak, I just don't understand you. Why bother creating an evolution intended to make an old Pokémon better, only to near-obsolete it next gen?

Anyway, enough complaining from me.

Does anyone ever run any Dual Screen sets? Because Magnezone would be preferable in that case, as he has access to Light Clay.

EDIT: Woah, thought I was posting in the Threats thread. Sorry for derailing.

Pertinence to Gatr: So even if he doesn't get DD, will Gatr still show his face in Standard?
 
hhjj said:
I think Magenton with Pre-evo stone is better than Magnezone. Higher Base Speed, close Special Attack, and with the stone it has better Defense, and Sp. Defense.

It just cannot use Explosion and has less base HP, but who uses Explosion anymore and the lower HP is made up by better defenses.

Without Stone, Scarf Magneton is better than Magenzone due to higher Speed.
So unless you are using Life Orb or Specs, use Magneton, as with Leftovers, the healing doesn't make up for the massive defenses increase.
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I disagree.

Magnezone isn't a wall; it's a trapper and killer. Having massive defenses doesn't necessarily make it better at it's job. Having a ton of offensive power along with some bulk helps it do it's job more effectively. Specs Magnezone is still better at trapping Nattorie than Stone Magneton.

Getting 10 more base speed isn't worth losing 10 SpAtk on the Scarf set, not to mention the loss of bulk. If Scarf Magneton was better than Scarf Magnezone, people would have been using it more in Gen IV.

Even with Prevo Stone, Magneton still dies to STAB Earthquake (Magnezone can just hold a Balloon). 4X Weakness to a common attack on a wall flat out sucks. I don't expect to see a lot of Stone Magneton.

Noble Cactus said:
Pertinence to Gatr: So even if he doesn't get DD, will Gatr still show his face in Standard?
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The Agility set rocks, especially in the rain. DD is nice too, but I think Feraligatr needs the extra speed more than the extra power, thanks to Encourage effectively making his Attack Stat higher than Rayquaza's.

Encourage + Life Orb is almost like a free Sword Dance on Feraligatr (its a x1.9 rather than a x2.) DD is sorta overkill in Standard, especially in the rain.

And hell yeah, Gatr will be seen in standard, if he doesn't make OU. He could.
 
In 4th Gen. Ubers people did use Scarf Magneton to trap Steels like Scizor; the reason is because a Modest Scarf Magneton was both faster and had more SpA than a Timid Scarf Magnezone.

So it is outclassed; unless as noted Magnezone packs Specs, Life Orb, or as you mentioned Balloon (which requires not being hit at all on the switch-in to be used).
 
Magneton is slower than Timid Scarf Zone by one point. With Evo Stone, it is not allowed the luxury of any other item, including the ever-important Leftovers. Magneton is indeed a viable option over Magnezone in some cases, but with the hurdles it has to jump to bypass the power and notable bulk increase, it's not putting Zone out of a job anytime soon.
 
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