Espeon [4F]

I think CIM is trying to say that HP Fire lessens the need to predict. With HP Fire, you don't have to guess whether Registeel, Honchkrow, or Drapion is switching in. You just HP Fire and hit any of the three. With HP Ground, however, you have to decide between using Baton Pass/Signal Beam and HP Ground.

You also have to weigh risk / reward. Drapion (#34) is less common than Honchkrow, Drapion with an SDef investment are uncommon, and less than 10% of Drapion ran Pursuit (according to these month's stats). On the other hand, the 8th most used UU, Honchkrow and more than a third ran Pursuit.

You can't always rely on "perfect" prediction, especially if your opponent is equal / outclasses you on that level. Choice sets require a significant amount of prediction as it is, and relying for the most part on having to choose between two attacks is usually the best option. This thread is a stellar explanation of why.

Also:

[SET]
name: Trick Choice
move 1: Psychic
move 2: Hidden Power Ground
move 3: Baton Pass / Signal Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Espeon has great Speed and Special Attack, so it is no surprise it can use a Choice Specs set effectively. Psychic is Espeon's main STAB attack, which deals major damage to anything that does not resist it, or is not named Chansey. Hidden Power Ground is used to hit the ever common Registeel and Steelix switch-ins and eventually take its main counter out of the match. Baton Pass is a great move to use to scout your opponent's switch-ins and allow you to switch to one of your counters. Baton Pass also enables Espeon to escape from common Pursuit users such as Honchkrow and Absol. Trick allows Espeon to cripple its most common switch-ins, such as Chansey or Registeel, allowing another special attacker to sweep more freely.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Ground is recommended for many reasons. Firstly, Hidden Power Ground hits Drapion, who can otherwise switch into Psychic and set up Swords Dance or use Pursuit to KO Espeon. Secondly, Hidden Power Ground does not lower your Speed IV like Hidden Power Fighting does, which is important when taking other base 110s into consideration. However, if you opt for Baton Pass over Signal Beam, you are completely walled by Honchkrow and Claydol, so keep that in mind.</p>

<p>Signal Beam can be used over Baton Pass for superior type coverage if you are not a fan of the dry Baton Passing technique for scouting. Shadow Ball can also be used with Hidden Power Fighting, as Ghost and Fighting-type attacks grant perfect coverage. Shadow Ball can be useful to revenge kill Ghost-types such as Mismagius. This slot is really based on how effective you think dry Baton Pass scouting is and if it is more important than coverage, as both options have their perks. If you use either Shadow Ball or Signal Beam, you should maximize Espeon's Speed EVs so that you can beat other Espeon, otherwise the 40 HP helps Espeon survive the common Crobat's Brave Bird.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf can be used on this Espeon as well, letting it outspeed almost every other Pokemon, even those that carry a Choice Scarf of their own. This makes Espeon a great revenge killer, working off of its base 130 Special Attack stat. A Modest nature is recommended with a Choice Scarf, as Espeon benefits more from the Special Attack boost than it would benefit from boosting its already blazing Speed. If you opt for Choice Scarf, Espeon's Speed EVs can be lowered to 204, which gives Espeon a Speed of 460 with a Modest nature and a Choice Scarf. This allows Espeon to outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Roserade and other base 90 Choice Scarf users. The rest of the EVs can be thrown into HP, to give Espeon a little more bulk. (You might want to mention something about outspeeding Rain sweepers here. Also, is there any merit in investing more to beat + nature Yanmega with a speed boost or perhaps scarf Typhlosion?)</p>

<p>Choice Espeon is one of the best special wall lures because of its great base 130 Special Attack. With Registeel and Chansey crippled to the point of uselessness after being Tricked a Choice item, many other special sweepers can shine. Pokemon such as Calm Mind Mismagius and Yanmega appreciate the removal of a team's special wall, allowing them to likely pull off a successful sweep. Drapion is another common switch-in to Espeon and may be taken out with a Hidden Power Ground. (and what on your team can benefit from this? I would suggest Spiritomb for one here.) Another method of removing these special walls is to use Baton Pass on the predicted special wall switch to switch to a heavy hitter, such as Rhydon or Magmortar. Spiritomb can be annoying for this set, not minding Choice Specs too much and boasting great Special Defense, but it can be easily overcome by a strong wall breaker, ideally one that is immune to Will-O-Wisp and does not take much from Spiritomb's attacks. Blaziken comes to mind, resisting Dark Pulse as well as being immune to Will-O-Wisp.</p>

<p>A Choice item on Espeon has its disadvantages as well, as it does for all Pokemon. Espeon, however, has a bigger problem because of common Dark-types being immune to Psychic. Espeon's best coverage moves, Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Ground, also have Pokemon they do not touch, such as Ghost-types and Flying-types, respectively. Levitating Ghosts, such as Mismagius, are even immune to both. Having Pokemon that can take Dark and Ghost-type attacks are greatly beneficial. Registeel and Steelix come to mind, resisting both types as well as Bug, which Espeon is weak to as well. Fighting-types resist Dark-type attacks from Pokemon such as Spiritomb, who tend to get in the way of Espeon as well.</p>

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Espeon's great Special Attack, Speed, and decent Special Defense, Espeon makes a great Calm Mind passer. Substitute protects Espeon from status and critical hits, while Calm Mind helps to ensure those Substitutes remain intact.</p>

<p>With Baton Pass, Espeon becomes much like its old Advance self, which is referred to as "EspyJump". Baton Pass is a great attack because with Espeon's high Speed, it can use a couple of Calm Minds and pass them to a Pokemon with better coverage at its disposal, such as Moltres, Yanmega, or Shaymin. The strategy with EspyJump is to send Espeon on something it can set up against or forces out and use Substitute. If your opponent sends out a wall such as Registeel, you can easily Baton Pass the Substitute to one of your hard hitters, who will likely have its Substitute still up because of the pitiful damage a resisted Iron Head does. If your opponent eventually runs out of Espeon counters, you can use Calm Mind and attempt to sweep with Psychic instead of Baton Passing the boosts.</p>

<p>The EVs given help Espeon set up as many Calm Minds as possible, hopefully making an unbreakable Substitute against a special attacker. The Speed EVs are given to outpace Mismagius and Scyther, along with most of the metagame.</p>

<p>Espeon can't do its job when Pokemon like Ambipom and Drapion (can't it just outspeed the latter and Baton Pass?) are around to Taunt or KO Espeon. Ambipom is quite difficult to get rid of, but carrying a strong Rock-type Choice Band user such as Rhydon or Relicanth can take advantage of Ambipom's presence to give you a bit of an edge. Drapion is a little easier to lure and KO with Pokemon like Choice Specs Mismagius. If Mismagius either Tricks Drapion Choice Specs or even nails it with Hidden Power Ground, Drapion will be rendered useless as a counter.</p>

<p>Defensively, taking hits from Chansey and Registeel are fairly easy, so any sort of Pokemon with high attack that can take an Iron Head or Seismic Toss well works great with Espeon. This especially applies to Pokemon who appreciate Substitutes, such as Magmortar or Charizard (who use Focus Punch) (But Chansey's Seismic Toss breaks the Substitute, so Charizard can't Focus Punch). Hariyama appreciates the Substitute as well and can use a deadly STAB Focus Punch in conjunction with its own Substitute.</p>

<p>With a couple of Calm Minds under its belt, Espeon can then Baton Pass the boosts to a teammate and set up a sweep. Moltres is the perfect special Agility sweeper to pass to, with sky high Special Attack and impressive defenses to take attacks aimed at Espeon. An Agility Blaziken greatly appreciates any Calm Minds passed to it as well, and it can also deal with Chansey unlike Moltres (Moltres can easily deal with Chansey with 2 Calm Minds). With Blaziken's resistance to Bug and Dark-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon, it is often easier to pass to it Moltres is generally a safer option, though, thanks to its higher defenses.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
move 4: Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A great way to remedy poor, two-move coverage is by, you guessed it, using three attacks. Calm Mind boosts Espeon's already sky high Special Attack stat; you can even get more boosts than usual when setting up on a weak special attacker. Psychic provides STAB damage, and the rest of the moves provide decent coverage. Hidden Power Ground hits Steel-types and Drapion for super effective damage, which are very important targets as they both commonly switch into Espeon expecting a Choiced Psychic. Signal Beam hits Psychic types such as Slowbro, Claydol, and fellow Espeon for super effective damage. It also hits Honchkrow for neutral damage, who would otherwise wall this set. You should keep Espeon hidden from your opponent until it needs to sweep so that your opponent's team will hopefully be weakened enough for Espeon to exploit.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Fighting and Shadow Ball can be used because Shadow Ball hits Ghost-types for super effective damage while also hitting other Psychic-types harder than Signal Beam. Hidden Power Fighting covers the lost Honchkrow coverage that Signal Beam had.</p>

<p>Substitute is a very good option if you opt for Leftovers as well because it can block status, scout, or simply try to draw a miss or full paralysis. If you opt for Leftovers and Substitute, it is a good idea to take 4 EVs out of SpD and SpA, and add them into HP. With 8 HP EVs, Espeon reaches a Substitute number and then an additional point so that it can create five Substitutes providing it doesn't take any damage.</p>

<p>This Espeon benefits from residual damage the most out of any set due to being a great late game cleaner built on setting up only a couple of Calm Minds. Stealth Rock alone allows Espeon to 2HKO Registeel (but if Registeel is switching into a Calm Mind, won't the damage be recovered by Leftovers?) after a Calm Mind. Add Spikes into the mix, and your opponent will be in a very grim situation. This variant of Espeon still has trouble with Chansey, though, so Blaziken and the rest of the mixed wall breakers come to mind as viable teammates. Not only do they beat Chansey, they also force switches that increase the residual damage inflicted on the opponent's team. Since this Espeon does not switch in and out often, this allows you to almost disregard defensive compensation for Espeon and focus more on other Pokemon's weaknesses.</p>

[SET]
name: Dual Screen
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Wish / Calm Mind
move 4: Psychic / Baton Pass
item: Light Clay / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Espeon's great Speed helps it set up screens before opposing Pokemon prey on its weak defenses. This set allows Espeon to fulfill a support role on a team. The strategy referred to as "Dual Screen" basically starts off with a Pokemon such as Espeon setting up both Reflect and Light Screen for the team and then the setting up of a sweeper. Espeon can also pass Wish to teammates; it helps when Pokemon with weaker defenses start their stat boosting from full health. Psychic works off of Espeon's base 130 attack, which hits hard even without EV investment.</p>

<p>Since Espeon learns Calm Mind and Baton Pass, it can set up another sweeper quite easily from behind its own screens. Espeon does not have an attacking move in that sense, but your opponent will not know until you reveal Baton Pass and until then will not risk getting hit by a boosted Psychic by using Taunt with a Pokemon such as Crobat or Ambipom. Espeon has another advantage other than Speed as a "Dual Sceen" user, which is the fact that common Brick Brick users such as Poliwrath will definitely not switch into Espeon in fear of a STAB Psychic.</p>

<p>Pokemon who can cause serious destruction in a few turns of set up are ideal to use in conjunction with this set. Gligar is a great option with this set, being able to pass Agility and Swords Dance to incredibly powerful Pokemon, such as Rampardos and Medicham. The Belly Drum users, such as Charizard, Poliwrath, and Linoone benefit from this set, as it is unlikely that a single attack from an opposing Pokemon will be able to do 50% when the target is shielded by the effects of a screen. A Swords Dance Drapion can get a couple Attack boosts with the increased defenses from the screens and rip through most teams as well, while Substitute and Calm Mind or Bulk Up users will likely be able to keep their Substitutes intact against weaker Pokemon such as Registeel.</p>

<p>With Calm Mind and Baton Pass, Espeon works well with Pokemon who are fast enough to pull off a special sweep after some Calm Mind boosts. Agility Blaziken and Moltres come up again because, with a couple of Calm Mind boosts, almost no Pokemon can stand in the way of these Pokemon's boosted STAB Fire Blasts (aside from Chansey, whom Blaziken can Superpower to death). Charizard and Shaymin are both speedy special attackers who appreciate Calm Minds, and even forgotten threats such as Manectric can be deadly with a couple of boosts.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Espeon brings a team loads of special attacking power and is a great asset to any team in need of a little offensive punch or late game sweeper. Espeon as an offensive Pokemon always appreciates Stealth Rock and other residual damage, which turn certain 3HKOes into 2HKOes (e.g. Stealth Rock turns a +1 Hidden Power Ground from the Life Orb set into a 2HKO on Registeel) (still don't get this). Pokemon such as Registeel and Steelix work well with Espeon because not only can they set up Stealth Rock, they can also take the Dark, Ghost and Bug-type attacks aimed at Espeon with ease.</p>

<p>Choice Espeon is a great Pokemon to use to lure out and cripple the opponent's special walls while also boasting decent revenge killing power. It takes out Chansey and Registeel with Trick and can KO Pokemon such as Drapion and Steelix with Hidden Power. Mismagius and other special attackers appreciate this because without their counters, they are free to sweep. However, a Choice item comes with drawbacks, so keep a defensive Pokemon such as Regirock or Registeel in the reserve for when Espeon is locked into an undesirable attack and is forced out. Keep in mind that Pokemon Espeon can revenge kill easily, such as Blaziken or Hariyama, are commonly used with Registeel and Chansey, so make sure to keep that in mind and have a trigger finger on Trick in these situations.</p>

<p>Calm Mind Espeon sets have trouble sweeping with specially defensive Pokemon such as Chansey and Registeel or Dark-types in their way. A great way to lure these Pokemon out and cripple them is to use a Trick Specs Mismagius. Mismagius can come in on any of its resistances or immunities, and start firing off strong special attacks at the opponent until they are forced to bring in their special wall, or even possibly a Dark-type that resists Ghost-attacks such as Drapion. That's when Mismagius can Trick the Pokemon Choice Specs, making it rather useless as a counter. Blaziken, Magmortar, Nidoking, and other mixed attackers make great switch-ins to Chansey and Registeel and can wreak havoc on the opponent's team.</p>

<p>A nice strategy to use with a Calm Mind passing variant of Espeon is to have an Agility sweeper on the team to pass to that can take a hit and set up a sweep. Blaziken immediately comes to mind, with access to Agility, great offensive stats, and a resistance to Dark and Bug-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon quite often. Not to mention, Blaziken can use Superpower to dispose of Chansey. Moltres is another option, hitting harder than Blaziken and having much better defenses (though Chansey is still a little bit of trouble). (Sub/Roost/Toxic will beat it or at least severely weaken it) Another nice little maneuver is to abuse Baton Pass and U-turn on a Pokemon such as Crobat, Ambipom, or better yet, Scyther, who does more damage. Going back and forth from Espeon to one of these Pokemon with U-turn can prove incredibly annoying for your opponent, especially with Stealth Rock in play. With your opponent always having to send a Pokemon in first, you gain the advantage of being able to send in a counter and force out your opponent over and over again. For example, you use U-turn with Ambipom, and they send out Hariyama, so you send out Espeon with your free switch from U-turn. You then use Baton Pass on Espeon, because Hariyama is forced out, and they send out Chansey, allowing you to go back to Ambipom. Rinse and repeat. This will wear your opponent out fast thanks to Stealth Rock and U-turn damage.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Grass Knot can work on any sweeping set to hit certain foes harder, such as Slowbro and Milotic. Espeon needs all the coverage it gets, however, so you should probably only be using it on a Choice set with 4 attacks.</p>

<p>Fake Tears comes to mind when using a stall team built around entry hazards. Fake Tears can be used to force switches, building up residual damage. However, Registeel and Regirock both have the Clear Body ability, making stat drops fail against them, and they are both common switch-ins to Espeon.</p>

<p>Wish can be used on a Choiced set, allowing Espeon to bluff Light Clay, and letting you take advantage of switches to heal your team. Another attacking move or Baton Pass are almost always better, though, because they allow Espeon to further help remove special walls from the opponent's team. Moonlight can be used on a defensive set as well, as a nice instant recovery move.</p>

[EVs]

<p>For the Choice Specs set, a simple maximum Speed and maximum Special Attack spread with a Timid nature is ideal for increasing damage output and revenge killing power, therefore increasing sweeping power. However, the Speed EVs are dropped to 216 to give Espeon a fair chance against Crobat, always surviving its Brave Bird and KOing back with Psychic. For the Choice Scarf set, the Speed EVs can be lowered to 204, which outspeeds Timid or Jolly base 90 Speed Pokemon with a Choice Scarf (such as Roserade). This gives Espeon a few leftover EVs to put into HP for some bulk, allowing it to more reliably survive at least a strong neutral hit if needed.</p>

<p>For the Calm Mind set with Leftovers, 8 HP EVs is all that is needed to get a Leftovers number plus one, which lets Espeon use Substitute an additional time. The Life Orb variant wants to keep its HP odd (giving Espeon another attack), so make sure the extra 4 EVs are not put into HP on that set if you opt for it. The Dual Screen set maximizes Espeon's poor HP and invests in enough Speed to outspeed base 105s such as Scyther and Mismagius. The rest are put into Defense, as Espeon needs all of the support it can get from the physical side. The EspyJump set uses the same spread, but with the remaining EVs put into SpD to give it an easier time setting up against special attackers.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Espeon is a fast Pokemon who works best when played to its strength: special attacking. Outspeeding a good portion of the metagame, Espeon can be a great asset to any team requiring either a revenge killer or late game sweeper. With a Choice item, Espeon can revenge kill and sweep quite well, while crippling special walls in its way with Trick. Calm Mind helps Espeon set up an unbreakable Substitute and proceed to get enough boosts to sweep an entire team, only able to be stopped by a select few Pokemon. Dual Screen helps a lot of teams set up their more dangerous and frail sweepers, and can catch an opponent off guard.</p>

<p>Espeon is a strong special attacker and can do its job on any team in need of a revenge killer and special wall lure, Calm Mind sweeper, or Dual Screen user. With its near unmatchable Speed, its definitely worth considering for your team.</p>

[Counters]

<p>The best switch-in to Espeon is a specially defensive Spiritomb with Pursuit, with its monstrous Special Defense and immunity to Psychic. Chansey is probably the next best switch-in, with its titanic HP and Special Defense stats. Close behind is Registeel, who also has great defensive stats but lacks a recovery move. However, these walls need to beware of Trick from a Choiced variant.</p>

<p>Honchkrow and basically any other Dark-type with Pursuit can trap and KO Espeon with ease if it is caught locked into a Choiced Psychic. These Pokemon should watch out for Signal Beam, however, because Espeon's attacks pack a punch and can usually 2HKO these Pokemon. Choice item users with Pursuit can also switch in on Trick and KO Espeon, due to Espeon being locked into Trick. Even something without Pursuit can take Tricks fairly well, gaining an essentially free attack.</p>

<p>Crobat and Swellow can outspeed Espeon and KO it with a physical attack, making them the best revenge killers. Espeon is also very vulnerable to Sucker Punch, which will do heavy if not fatal damage, though Sucker Punch users need to beware of Substitute and Calm Mind sets.</p>
 
I think CIM is trying to say that HP Fire lessens the need to predict. With HP Fire, you don't have to guess whether Registeel, Honchkrow, or Drapion is switching in. You just HP Fire and hit any of the three. With HP Ground, however, you have to decide between using Baton Pass/Signal Beam and HP Ground.

You also have to weigh risk / reward. Drapion (#34) is less common than Honchkrow, Drapion with an SDef investment are uncommon, and less than 10% of Drapion ran Pursuit (according to these month's stats). On the other hand, the 8th most used UU, Honchkrow and more than a third ran Pursuit.

You can't always rely on "perfect" prediction, especially if your opponent is equal / outclasses you on that level. Choice sets require a significant amount of prediction as it is, and relying for the most part on having to choose between two attacks is usually the best option. This thread is a stellar explanation of why.

I see what you mean, I might consider slashing it, but here are my issues still:

Firstly, Pursuit isn't that common anymore (as the stats show). The "good" Honchkrow players (not saying they are the only good players) that I can think of (namely Jrrrr and LonelyNess) all use Night Slash on their Honchkrows over Pursuit.

Also, keep in mind that Honchkrow and Drapion are barely, if not ever on the same team according to Doug's statistics and logic (they are both physical Dark-types, so they have "similar" niches and weaknesses/resistances). This means that if you revenge kill Drapion, you will be relatively safe from Honchkrow revenge killing you with Pursuit.

If you think about it, the point "after you KO with HP Ground, you lose to Honchkrow" still works against Hidden Power Fire as well. I think the main thing being overlooked here, is that Honchkrow can STILL come in after Espeon KOes something, and OHKO Espeon, regardless of its attack. Hidden Power Fire doesn't do enough damage to effect the outcome.

Giving up the ability to OHKO a dangerous sweepers, and 2HKOing a common switch in in a trade off for possibly giving 1/3 of Honchkrows 30-40% less HP before they OHKO you, does not seem like the right plan of action, to me at least.

The point of using Baton Pass, is to make sure you know your counters. If you throw any attack around with Espeon and mispredict, you will still lose either way. The only thing HP Fire adds is a chunk of damage, but nothing too severe. The fact that HP Fire hits targets that Espeon otherwise cant is irrelevant to some extent, because that's the point of Baton Pass, to not have to predict like that and risk Espeon. A good Espeon player doesn't go in spamming HP and Psychic, it uses Baton Pass to check its counters.

Not to mention, Espeon is often clearing a path for Mismagius, and Drapion is a huge obstacle for both of them. Much more so than Honchkrow.

In Short:

-Pursuit isnt THAT common.

-Honchkrow and Drapion are rarely on the same team.

-Honchkrow can still OHKO Espeon after it KOes something with HP Fire, but the difference with HP Ground is that you can actually KO a counter first.

-Espeon is a great Pokemon to clear a path for Mismagius, and losing HP Ground loses that aspect of Espeon, which isn't a good thing for Espeon.

-@ Less Prediction: Baton Pass is on Espeon for that reason, you shouldn't be doing as much "predicting" with Espeon as you may think. The Espeon player should know if there is a Honchkrow waiting to switch in or revenge kill it.

-Overall, the benefits of HP Fire don't outweigh the loss of HP Ground imo.


Anyway, on to your comments:
eum said:
(You might want to mention something about outspeeding Rain sweepers here. Also, is there any merit in investing more to beat + nature Yanmega with a speed boost or perhaps scarf Typhlosion?)

It already beats those.
eum said:
(and what on your team can benefit from this? I would suggest Spiritomb for one here.)

I guess I could add some examples, like spiritomb. I'll do that.
eum said:
(can't it just outspeed the latter and Baton Pass?)

Well yea, but it can't pass Calm Minds, which is what I was trying to say there, but I'll clarify.
eum said:
(But Chansey's Seismic Toss breaks the Substitute, so Charizard can't Focus Punch).


Right but Iron Head doesn't, which is what I was refering to when keeping the substitute intact.
eum said:
(Sub/Roost/Toxic will beat it or at least severely weaken it)

Stalltres isn't much of a threat with Calm Minds (well it won't "sweep), I was refering to the Agility variant.

Adding in the rest, thanks for the check.
 
HeySup, if you're facing a Hariyama and your opponent has switch-ins to either a Honchkrow or Registeel, you easily have two options with HP Fire: Psychic or HP Fire. Whereas if you use HP Ground, you have to choose between Psychic, HP Ground, and Baton Pass. You can't Baton Pass forever. For one thing, your opponent might actually leave Hariyama in and then you're going to have to decide whether you want to risk Payback landing on your Mismagius, Ice Punch on your Nidoking, Close Combat on your Blaziken, etc. Baton Pass is a cool scouting move, but I know from experience that if you abuse it too much, you end up getting burnt by good players. It's even worse with Honchkrow since it doesn't have many counters and you're basically giving it a free switch-in with Espeon.

Also, Gay Dolphin and LonelyNess using Night Slash is sort of irrelevant. While they are good, prominent players, there is no reason we should ignore good, unknown players who use Pursuit on their Honchkrow. Pursuit is still quite common according to the stats - it's not like it's not viable.

It already beats those.
Modest 216 EVs CScarf Espeon: 465 Spe
Timid Yanmega with Speed boost: 475 Spe

ScarfTyphlosion, yeah, it looks like it beats the standard.

When I was referring to Rain sweepers, I meant that you might want to mention it as a perk of ScarfEspeon. I've been told that ScarfEspeon is one of the banes of Rain teams.
 
To be fair, HP Fire and HP Ground are just as risky against Hariyama as Baton Pass, as if it stays in on either one it sponges it easily and usually results in instant death for frail little Espeon. I'd say the bigger problem is revenge killing. Once you hit something with HP Ground, if you kill it, Honch comes in for absolute free and kills you. With HP Fire, it's entirely likely that Honch will Sucker Punch instead of Pursuit, and you actually have a chance against it instead of just getting killed outright. Bear in mind that IIRC, HP Fire does like 42% to Honchkrow, IIRC, which is notably more than most Honch have after their second switchin to SR and one round of LO. Being able to hit things is ALWAYS better than not being able to hit things, and having a random contingency plan against extremely uncommon Pokemon that don't pose any considerable threat to you (I'm looking at you, Drapion) is mediocre at best.

You should make the second slot HP Fire / HP Ground with a note that HP Ground hits Drapion, but is extremely unsafe the majority of the time.

Also, Baton Pass is a really mediocre move if you're looking to "scout counters". Oftentimes the opponent is intentionally sacrificing something as death fodder, and a Baton Pass just means that they get to get another lick in on your team before they kick the bucket. You have to remember that Baton Pass turns are basically free turns for your opponent, unlike the damage-dealing U-turn, and against good players, a dry Baton Pass is more dangerous than effective.
 
Timid Yanmega with Speed boost: 475 Spe
Code:
| Yanmega    | Nature       | Modest           |    89.1 |
| Yanmega    | Nature       | Timid            |     7.1 |

I was aiming to outspeed Modest Yanmega. 7.1 of Yanmega who run timid aren't much of a threat tbh.
When I was referring to Rain sweepers, I meant that you might want to mention it as a perk of ScarfEspeon. I've been told that ScarfEspeon is one of the banes of Rain teams.

I'll add a bit in, good idea.
----------------------------

While that Hariyama situation was a pretty bad example of HP Fire's use because HP Fire is actually the worst option out of HP Ground, Psychic, and Baton Pass, I guess I could go with a slash.

I personally have an issue still, because imo not being walled by something is important, and Honchkrow never walled you in the first place (BP or Signal Beam). From my experience against good (stall) players, such as yourselves (specifically Eum and LR though), you need to take care of something's walls in order to sweep. Honchkrow is never a "wall" per se, though it's immune to HP Ground / Psychic, it really has no buisness switching into Espeon unless it's sure Psychic is coming, otherwise Signal Beam, Baton Pass, or Trick could cripple it for the whole match. While on the other hand, Drapion can switch in, and still function with Trick (it only needs to attack to stop Missy, Honchkrow needs to use a Sucker Punch prediction game which is impossible with Trick), be immune to Psychic, take lol damage from Signal Beam. While Honchkrow is a more prominent threat, Drapion is a more prominent Missy counter. Which brings me too...

HP Ground breaks walls for Mismagius, which is, imo, the best reason to use Specs Espeon over Specs Missy, because Espeon lures out Drapion and KOes it and lures out Registeel / Chansey and KOes them / Tricks them. With HP Fire, it cannot take out Drapion who is more of a threat to Missy then Honchkrow by a large margin as I explained before.

I'll add it in as a slash, but unless anyone objects, I think it should still be a secondary option. Espeon isn't your "standard" Choice user, it's a utility Choice user. Though, thats just how I use it, and I seem to have trouble distinguishing between the best option for my playstyle, and the best option in general. However, HP Ground just seems better to me still.

So enough rambling; does Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire look fine? I'll add something about Hidden Power Fire still hitting steels, but also hitting Honchkrow for neutral and i'll make a note to fix the EVs to 32 HP / 220 Spe / 4 SpD / 252 SpA (its HP should be odd because of SR).
 
Espeon is exactly your standard choice user. It breaks teams open with its ridiculously powerful STAB, and only uses its secondary attacks when necessary. These secondary options should only be used in case of emergency, and should have as little risk as possible. HP Fire is the best option for this reason, but HP Ground is valid for hitting Drapion (and nothing else).

Bottom line, HP Fire > HP Ground on a frail choice user.
 
haven't read anything but the OP, but in the offensive CM set:

A great way to remedy poor, two-move coverage is by, you guessed it, using three attacks

Remove the bolded part and this sentence looks alot better.
 
Espeon is exactly your standard choice user. It breaks teams open with its ridiculously powerful STAB, and only uses its secondary attacks when necessary. These secondary options should only be used in case of emergency, and should have as little risk as possible. HP Fire is the best option for this reason, but HP Ground is valid for hitting Drapion (and nothing else).

Bottom line, HP Fire > HP Ground on a frail choice user.

While I still disagree, but I'll just attribute the disagreement to my playstyle and leave it at that. I say this because I didn't really like it when I tested it, but if you guys did, then its me, not the attack.

So itll get slashed in before, and i'll add a paragraph before the HP Ground paragraph.

Just to clarify, the spread should be 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe correct?

haven't read anything but the OP, but in the offensive CM set:

Remove the bolded part and this sentence looks alot better.

I guess I will, it just added some "personality" to the analysis, but I'll take it out unless anyone likes it.
--------------------------------
EDIT: Added both of those changes in, does it look fine?

I do want Jrrrr to post here though, he said he agreed with me in Shoddy chat, so he might have something to add (though maybe not).
 
I guess I will, it just added some "personality" to the analysis, but I'll take it out unless anyone likes it.

Generally analyses should be written from a formal, neutral, flat, third person tone that doesn't address the reader or author.
 
Generally analyses should be written from a formal, neutral, flat, third person tone that doesn't address the reader or author.

Just like to point out that this is not necessarily the case. If you can avoid being flat, neutral, and boring and inject some life into your writeup, that's great, but if you can't do it without being cheesy it's best not to try.

One of the more difficult goals to accomplish in writing is to infuse your writing with a certain sense of personality without appearing biased. You don't want to write the entire document in the first person, but you also don't want to write as if you have no passion about the subject on which you are writing either. An example: "I think Floatzel is one of the most fearsome BL pokemon there is, and in my opinion, can work on any standard team with some decent support." In this case, you don't need the first person to prove your point—your writing would be more persuasive and genuine without it here. Observe: "Floatzel is one of the most fearsome BL pokemon there is, and can work on any standard team with decent support." I clearly just removed the "I think" and the "in my opinion", but you can see how much more effective the revised sentence is. Generally you do not want to employ either of those uses of the first person in your writing, because it is implied that the writer feels the way he or she does about what he or she wrote.

There are times where a little personality can go a long way towards sprucing up a document. Humor and wit are great ways to showcase personality and make your document enjoyable to read. You are going to want to pick your spots and not overdo it, but if you can find a good spot or two in a paragraph you can go ahead and insert some wit or humor if you can do it without detracting from the writeup in general. The best way to tell if you've gone a little overboard is by rereading your work after you've written it and can look at every sentence and idea and ask yourself, objectively, if the sentiment conveyed is the most appropriate for the given sentence or idea.

From Jump's "What a Good Writer Looks Out For" thread.
 
I'm assuming LR's post was directed at Chris and not at me keeping that section in.

Is there anything else that needs to be done here?
 
Substitute should be mentioned on the offensive CM set over HP or Signal Beam. You lose coverage, but it helps you build up CMs. After one your sub can survive weaker special hits from Milotic and other walls, and it makes the job of taking on Absol/Honchkrow by Subbing on a predicted Sucker Punch, then getting a free shot at them with Signal beam/HP fighting. It plays similar to Mismagius, only with more power, but without the immunities.
 
Ctrl + F Umbreon and not a nick of mention? It should be mentioned in every set and deserves a strong mention on the counters section

It can easily come in on its beloved STAB move and if you manage to slip in HP Ground it will be futile because of its sky rocket SpD. It can then strike back with Payback or heal off the damage with Wish.
 
Substitute should be mentioned on the offensive CM set over HP or Signal Beam. You lose coverage, but it helps you build up CMs. After one your sub can survive weaker special hits from Milotic and other walls, and it makes the job of taking on Absol/Honchkrow by Subbing on a predicted Sucker Punch, then getting a free shot at them with Signal beam/HP fighting. It plays similar to Mismagius, only with more power, but without the immunities.

It is mentioned already. :)

Ctrl + F Umbreon and not a nick of mention? It should be mentioned in every set and deserves a strong mention on the counters section

It can easily come in on its beloved STAB move and if you manage to slip in HP Ground it will be futile because of its sky rocket SpD. It can then strike back with Payback or heal off the damage with Wish.

Well it fits under the "Special Walls" part, and there is honestly no need to list EVERY special wall on every set, but I'll add it specifically in counters.
 
Your mixed Nidoking set seems like a great option for CM passing (even if you only mention him next to Manectric). While at first glance he seems inferior to Blaziken, he has an advantage that at least makes him worth mentioning - he is immune to the T-waves that Chansey and Registeel are likely to throw at you in the event that they are good at prediction or you are too low on health to put up a sub (I guess one could lead to the other). This could allow you to recklessly set up Calm Minds against them, knowing your sweeper will not be paralyzed. Most things that outspeed Nidoking and hit SE are special, so the boosted SpDef will certainly be helpful.

Of course sub could beat out T-wave too, but the sub/CM vs. SToss/T-wave quickly becomes a mind game, and once a mind game is on, the enemy's moves are effectively as pseudorandom as the numbers shoddy pulls up to decide hax. Since winning mind games is unreliable, the insurance of immunity and the potential for extra boosts makes Nidoking a decent option.

Edit: It also might be good to mention some OHKO's Specs Espeon gets (or that Scarf OHKO's Swellow).
 
Just wanted to say that you should mention Dugtrio in the Counters section and some of the set comments, considering that Jolly CB Dugtrio Earthquake outspeeds and OHKOs 4/0 Espeon (by far the most common spread) 87% of the time without Stealth Rock and 100% of the time with it.

388 Atk vs 156 Def & 272 HP (100 Base Power): 267 - 315 (98.16% - 115.81%)
 
Yeah! I love seeing the Espeon love. Although it is completely overlooked in OU (fuck you Alakazam) it can be totally usable in UU. With Choice Specs it is a total beastly bastard and can go apeshit on almost anything that doesnt resist Psychic (and as u said, isnt named Chansey). Im really tired now, post more later, its just I got really excited when I saw this because Espeon has been one of my favorite pokes for a while now.
 
While I'd gladly add it if you think I should, I do think it makes more sense to see what Dugtrio does to the metagame, and more importantly (well at least for this analysis), what it does to Espeon. I think the fact that the CM / BP Espeon has Baton Pass, as does the Choice variant, Dugtrio is definitely not as effective a counter for Espeon as one may think.

It is probably worth a mention either way, but testing it first makes more sense to me.
 
Yes we will need to wait on Dugtrio etc for the time being, but it's pretty safe to mention Dugtrio considering that the analysis already lists Swellow and Crobat as revenge killers. It's just one sentence and it'll be pretty easy to verify if youre worried about it.
 
Since this needs to be updated with -Crobat, +Dugtrio, and whatever else you feel needs to be mentioned, I figure I might as well point out a grammar issue I found in the last paragraph of the Baton Pass set with the reminder.

With Blaziken's resistance to Bug and Dark-type attacks that will be aimed at Espeon, it is often easier to pass to it. (period was missing) Moltres is generally a safer option, though, thanks to its higher defenses.</p>

 
Back
Top