It's a Gen IV/VI TM move. But 70 BP with 90 Accuracy is something I'd might begin to consider against...
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Pokémon Empoleon
- Thread starter Ixeilon
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The problem with av on empoleon as its use is almost solely due to its support movepool, specifically stealth rock and defog, so assault vest actually hinders empoleon (already has great spdef).
Seconded. That set screams of specs since nobody will expect that from a penguin in OU since support is its only niche there
I personally think it's good enough for a thread. Its defensive sets are nice for rocks, defog, and knock off, and its offensive sets are bulky + powerful. It checks azu, which is cool, while at the same time supporting the team with either immense power or burns, rocks, hazards, and hazard removal. It's of course very niche, but I think it's on the same level as other d ranked mons.
Yeah both its defensive and offensive sets are viable imo, so i don't see any reason to lock this for now. Here are the sets i am talking about:
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Roar
- Protect / Stealth Rock
Advantages of this set over SpD Heatran are:
- Checks Azumarill, mostly AV sets, but can check CB Azumarill once
- Can keep CM Suicune in check until late-game
- Counters Greninja
- Counters SubBounce regular Gyarados with Roar
- Checks Manaphy
- Fares better against choiced Keldeo, giving your team a good switch-in to its Water attacks
- Fares much better against rain teams, thanks to its ability to check all of Kabutops, Omastar, and Kingdra (though not all together, it will get worn down), as well as Politoed itself
- Doesn't fear Earthquake from Latios as much as Heatran
Basically, if your team is very Water-weak Empoleon is a decent choice for a special tank to consider over Heatran. And here is the offensive set:
Empoleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire / Ice Beam
Empoleon is one of the few offensive Pokemon able to counter CM Clefable and CM Suicune, which is a pretty big deal for offensive teams. It also outspeeds and deals 68% damage minimum to Jolly max Speed Azumarill, which is always a OHKO after SR, Belly Drum, and Sitrus. Its power is also great and the only things that wall it are Chansey, SpD Sylveon, SpD Rotom-W, and Cresselia, all of which except from Chansey are very rare. Flash Cannon easily 2HKOes +1 Clefable and max HP Mega Venusaur after SR, Grass Knot has a 87% chance to 3HKO +2 Suicune, so you have a pretty good chance at beating it if you switch into it immediately, and Hidden Power Fire is for Ferrothorn. Ice Beam is nice for Dragon- and Grass-types, but Flash Cannon already 2HKOes both Latios and Latias and they can't OHKO back with Thunderbolt, but if your team appreciates getting the OHKO with Ice Beam on Latios as it comes in with SR, then Ice Beam is for you. Ice Beam is also nice to do more to Amoonguss and SpD Celebi, but Flash Cannon already 2HKOes Amoonguss (granted, he can switch out, but so can you) and SpD Celebi is kinda rare from my experience, while Flash Cannon 2HKOes PhD Celebi. It faces huge competition with Keldeo and Greninja as a special Water-type nuke, but Clefable is such a massive threat that Empoleon is worth using sometimes, especially because it also handles some other Pokemon those two can't (checks Lati@s without Thunderbolt, Suicune, can switch into BD Azumarill unlike the other two, checks Greninja).
EDIT: Updated the OP with those two sets.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Roar
- Protect / Stealth Rock
Advantages of this set over SpD Heatran are:
- Checks Azumarill, mostly AV sets, but can check CB Azumarill once
- Can keep CM Suicune in check until late-game
- Counters Greninja
- Counters SubBounce regular Gyarados with Roar
- Checks Manaphy
- Fares better against choiced Keldeo, giving your team a good switch-in to its Water attacks
- Fares much better against rain teams, thanks to its ability to check all of Kabutops, Omastar, and Kingdra (though not all together, it will get worn down), as well as Politoed itself
- Doesn't fear Earthquake from Latios as much as Heatran
Basically, if your team is very Water-weak Empoleon is a decent choice for a special tank to consider over Heatran. And here is the offensive set:
Empoleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire / Ice Beam
Empoleon is one of the few offensive Pokemon able to counter CM Clefable and CM Suicune, which is a pretty big deal for offensive teams. It also outspeeds and deals 68% damage minimum to Jolly max Speed Azumarill, which is always a OHKO after SR, Belly Drum, and Sitrus. Its power is also great and the only things that wall it are Chansey, SpD Sylveon, SpD Rotom-W, and Cresselia, all of which except from Chansey are very rare. Flash Cannon easily 2HKOes +1 Clefable and max HP Mega Venusaur after SR, Grass Knot has a 87% chance to 3HKO +2 Suicune, so you have a pretty good chance at beating it if you switch into it immediately, and Hidden Power Fire is for Ferrothorn. Ice Beam is nice for Dragon- and Grass-types, but Flash Cannon already 2HKOes both Latios and Latias and they can't OHKO back with Thunderbolt, but if your team appreciates getting the OHKO with Ice Beam on Latios as it comes in with SR, then Ice Beam is for you. Ice Beam is also nice to do more to Amoonguss and SpD Celebi, but Flash Cannon already 2HKOes Amoonguss (granted, he can switch out, but so can you) and SpD Celebi is kinda rare from my experience, while Flash Cannon 2HKOes PhD Celebi. It faces huge competition with Keldeo and Greninja as a special Water-type nuke, but Clefable is such a massive threat that Empoleon is worth using sometimes, especially because it also handles some other Pokemon those two can't (checks Lati@s without Thunderbolt, Suicune, can switch into BD Azumarill unlike the other two, checks Greninja).
EDIT: Updated the OP with those two sets.
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Empoleon is in no way bad. But due to it not having reliable recovery, it can't tank very well. It gets beaten by all the s ranks, even pinsir, since they usually run eq/cc, and it has no coverage moves for electric or fighting. If you ask me, only use it on teams where you need to couner certain mons since they are large problems
Empoleon is IMO is a unique pokemon, 10 resistance's, 2 quad resistances and an immunity to toxic makes it quite unique. I never understood why it couldn't learn roost. I mean come on, he's a penguin for gods sake. He works as a bulky stealth rock setter and defogger with his unique steal typing. If you don't play him as part of a FWG core, he works wonderfully his 84 / 88 / 101 defense is quite good. i could even see him giving himself a defiant boost by defogging on a magic bouncer, but thats gimmicky. All in all, Empoleon isn't your average water type, but still can shine with the right team
The sets I am running:
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Roar
- Defog
Empoleon is one the more underrated Pokémon for the OU meta. It has a big niche with access to Defog, and useful base 101 Special Defense and base 111 Special Attack. It works really well as a pivot, you can switch into many common OU threats such as Heatran and Azumarill. Further on it makes life hard for other common OU pokemons such as Greninja and Clefable. You can Roar out Clefable before it gets to set up Calm Minds, and you can set up Toxic damage on incoming Pokemon to slowly wear down their health. Defog grants great team support, and with the addition of Scald with 30% chance to burn, Empoleon can make life hard for inswitching Landorus-Therians and etc. Overall Empoleon is a Pokemon you shouldn't laugh at, it is a Pokemon that has many positive things going for it in the OU meta, and it works well as a team support.
Empoleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
Alternatively you could run the Choice Specs-set, that aims at taking out Pokemon such as Clefable with Flash Cannon before it gets to do anything. Further on it focuses on dealing with Ferrothorn and Scizor with HP Fire. Hydro Pump will just be there for STAB and will naturally do massive damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Grass Knot will deal with Pokemon such as Azumarill and Suicune that could show up.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Roar
- Defog
Empoleon is one the more underrated Pokémon for the OU meta. It has a big niche with access to Defog, and useful base 101 Special Defense and base 111 Special Attack. It works really well as a pivot, you can switch into many common OU threats such as Heatran and Azumarill. Further on it makes life hard for other common OU pokemons such as Greninja and Clefable. You can Roar out Clefable before it gets to set up Calm Minds, and you can set up Toxic damage on incoming Pokemon to slowly wear down their health. Defog grants great team support, and with the addition of Scald with 30% chance to burn, Empoleon can make life hard for inswitching Landorus-Therians and etc. Overall Empoleon is a Pokemon you shouldn't laugh at, it is a Pokemon that has many positive things going for it in the OU meta, and it works well as a team support.
Empoleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
Alternatively you could run the Choice Specs-set, that aims at taking out Pokemon such as Clefable with Flash Cannon before it gets to do anything. Further on it focuses on dealing with Ferrothorn and Scizor with HP Fire. Hydro Pump will just be there for STAB and will naturally do massive damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Grass Knot will deal with Pokemon such as Azumarill and Suicune that could show up.
I always liked Aqua Ring + Protect on a set that runs Defog. I also firmly believe in not running Defog on a team that runs Stealth Rock, and would rather opt for a Rapid Spinner, in other words, don't run SR and Defog on the same set. I believe he also gets Iron Defense, so one could max out the SpDef and HP and get a decent tank with Defog support. Aqua Ring + Protect with Leftovers give it back 25% HP and you can run Scald in that last move set to hit physical attackers and tap into the burn hax.
I definately agree with that statement regarding not running Defog + Stealth Rock. That's why I didn't put it on my set. But that is just a personal preference of mine. With the cards played right it could still work. If you use Defog first and then Stealth Rock next turn for example. But yeah, I do feel like it isn't worth it most of the time.
EmPROlean@ Leftovers
252 HP, 252 SpDef, 4 SpAtk
Modest/Calm/Bold nature
Aqua Ring
Defog
Iron Defense
Scald
This is imo one of his better support tank sets, high def lets you switch in and Defog out hazards, it can't get poisoned, and Iron Defense makes him hard to hit. If he sits on Aqua Ring and fishes for burns with Scald you can cripple an enemy team, especially if they aren't running anything that can hit you hard enough.
252 HP, 252 SpDef, 4 SpAtk
Modest/Calm/Bold nature
Aqua Ring
Defog
Iron Defense
Scald
This is imo one of his better support tank sets, high def lets you switch in and Defog out hazards, it can't get poisoned, and Iron Defense makes him hard to hit. If he sits on Aqua Ring and fishes for burns with Scald you can cripple an enemy team, especially if they aren't running anything that can hit you hard enough.
2 main problems with Empoleon:
1) lol Trollfreak gives Kyurem and Reshiram roost but doesn't give this guy roost no reliable recovery = worn down blabla
2) Bulky water is supposed to wall fire types for the team. Bulky water weak to fire = bad
Also your supposed to wreck rain but unfortunately rekt by mega Mudkipz so yeah not anymore
Supposed to counter Ninja but now Ninja uses Low Kick not countering anymore
And also gets trapped by Zone >.<
1) lol Trollfreak gives Kyurem and Reshiram roost but doesn't give this guy roost no reliable recovery = worn down blabla
2) Bulky water is supposed to wall fire types for the team. Bulky water weak to fire = bad
Also your supposed to wreck rain but unfortunately rekt by mega Mudkipz so yeah not anymore
Supposed to counter Ninja but now Ninja uses Low Kick not countering anymore
And also gets trapped by Zone >.<
Flygon resist Sr too bro. But I wouldn't count my torching on him being OU, other than the dark days of deosharp.
Also Flygon! I guess certain forms of Arceus technically count lol.
Anyhow on topic Empoleon is rad. It's sort of a niche mon but it's an extremely cool way to get rid of rocks. It's way harder to kill than you might expect and it checks a lot of top tier Pokemon. It kinda suffers from the 4MSS on the defensive sets but it still has plenty of utility options even if it can't run them all at once AND it can even run a very reliable offensive set that has the typing and bulk to easily switch in on a large number of OU Pokemon.
Edit: Also cmon it's a penguin wearing a tuxedo.
Yes, it's definately unfortunate that the best recovery Empoleon have is Rest. Not to mention the fact that something like Flare Blitz Talonflame can deal good damage to it. It might struggle a bit more now with Greninja getting Low Kick and with Mega Swampert being around. Now Superpower and Drain Punch become move tutor moves in OR/AS (I think), and therefore many other Pokemon could take use of that and make life even harder for Empoleon. It's the sad truth, and it should have got Roost, because it would have helped this thing out tremendeously.
On the plus side, Emploeon does a nice job of stopping Azumarill and other pesky faries. It's a pittance, I know, but the steel type does bring with it some nice resistances.
Oh wait... Steel lost its resistance to Ghost and Dark. So Empoleon also lost the ability to tank a lot of attacks, which really hurts its already poor bulk.
Not really. Azumarill has been know to run Superpower for Ferrothorn and Knock Off for spammability, you need to be holding Specs and running Flash Cannon otherwise you're setup bait for Clefable, and Mega Gardevoir almost always has Focus Blast.
Most people run Banded Azumarill and it is resistant to Fairy-type moves which definately help. And Waterfall wouldn't do much either. Knock Off will not be a massive problem either. Playing around Azumarill isn't the biggest problem for Empoleon.
Knock Off is a huge problem for Empoleon because Leftovers is the only form of recovery it has. You have to scout out Azumarill's moves and item before you can comfortably switch in to deal with it, and even then you have to get a Scald burn to even consider its job a success.
It's not a huge problem and force Azumarill to switch.
When empoleon is trapped by magnezone it's dead. Actually almost all steels are dead when trapped by magnezone except for heatran and megagross.
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