Dusknoir (Attacking Lead)

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Moo

Moo

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Er, so me and ILoveLiza were talking, and he said how well Dusknoir could function as a lead. So we did some research and here we are. Main Credits go to ILoveLiza.
QC REJECTED (2/3)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dusknoir

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[SET]
Name: LeadNoir
Move 1: Will-O-Wisp
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Ice Punch
Move 4: Shadow Sneak
Nature: Adamant
Item: Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Att / 4 Def

The Set:
252 HP/Att Adamant is too ensure Maximun damage along with Bulk. Lum Berry is good for Leads like Roserade, Smeargle Etc. Leftovers or Sitrus Berry are also useable. You'll see the reason for choice of moves below. Mainly to deal with common leads. The moveset is also very useable mid-late game.

Why this set deserves to be on site:

  • It has the ability to defeat most leads with little trouble
  • Alot of leads cant damage LeadNoir very much, so it can often be used mid-game
  • It takes advantage of the surprise factor. When most people see a Dusknoir as a lead, they expect a giant noob, and you can catch them off-guard.
  • This set is NOT an Anti-lead. I'm very aware of it. It's an attacking lead similar to the likes of Machamp, although a little different.
Versus Common Leads:
* = Tricky lead Matchup

-Aerodactyl: Ice Punch, Shadow Sneak (70.9% - 83.4%, 28.1% - 33.8%) Rock Slide and Earthquake do Pityful damage to Noir

-Azelf: Shadow Sneak x2 (55.5% - 65.8%) Will probably taunt or get up rocks. And it can't use Explosion >8D

-Swampert: Will-O-Wisp. Noir cant do much else, but Wisp pretty much fucks him up. Will probably get Rocks up.

-Metagross: Will-O-Wisp. Pretty much in the same boat as Swampert. No Asplosion though :D

-*Jirachi: Earthquake x2 (58.5% - 69%) This is a tricky matchup. Iron Head doesnt do too much, but flinch hax is a bitch. Go for Earthquake, so if they Trick or Rocks, they're screwed. Might need something to take Steel hits.

-Inferape: Earthquake, Shadow Sneak (89.8% - 106.1%, 26.9% - 32%) Simple. No fake out. If they go for Rocks, then you dont even take any damage thanks to EQ and Sneak. xD Fire Blast does around half.

-Machamp: Will-O-Wisps x2 Nothing else you can really do.

-Roserade: Ice Punch, Shadow Sneak (75.4% - 89.1%, 30.2% - 35.8%) No Sleep thanks to Lum :D Ice Punch and Sneak is a 2hko. Pretty much same boat as Infernape.

-*Tyranitar: Will-O-Wisp, Earthquake x2 Shadow Sneak (45.5% - 54%, 6.9% 8.2%) Somewhat Risky. But Lead Tars are easily handled. Payback hurts like a bitch if the Wisp misses.

-Gliscor: Ice Punch (70.1% - 83.6%) Needs some prediction after that. Gliscor does Piss damage to Noir.

-**Heatran: Nope. Will definitely need backup for this one. Fire Blast is a 2hko and Specs will always KO.

-Ninjask: Ice Punch x2 (91.9% - 108.1%) If they sub twice, Ice Punch
-Breaks it, and Shadow Sneak is a 2hko (36.5% - 43.3%)

-Hippodon: Will-O-Wisp then switch. Cant do much else.

-Starmie: Shadow Sneak x2 (52.9% - 62.8%) Pump does around half.

-Dragonite: Ice Punch (97.8% - 115.2%) Shadow Sneak if needed. Draco Meteor does alot.

-*Uxie: Bad Matchup, most use trick, In ou i think. Anyways, might need a trick absorber.

-**Forretress: Bad Matchup. You can't do shit to Forry.

-*Smeargle: Take the Spore, then Earthquake. (55.8% - 65.7%) Bad matchup after that.

-*Bronzong: Bad Matchup. Same boat as Forry, but at least he wont stack up hazards.

-Crobat: Ice Punch x2 (53.4% - 63.5%)Crobat can't do much to Noir.

Teammates and Counters:
-Since this is a lead, this section will be mostly about lead synergy. Anyways, the leads with a * beside them can cause Noir trouble. They are Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Uxie, Forretress, Smeargle, and Bronzong. They mainly cause Noir trouble because Noir cant Damage them, or they can damge him.

-Some good teammates for this Lead are Scarfers, to absorb Trick, and Spinners, because pretty much every lead will get rocks up. Wish support is great too, making Noir a tank >8D

-The best Partner for lead Noir is Scarftran, Because it fills the position of Trick absorber, and it can Ohko most of the leads that Give Noir trouble: Jirachi, Forretress, Bronzong, and Heatran. (after absorbing The obvious Fire attack) Heatran and Noir also cover each others weaknesses almost perfectly.

-Forretress is an excellent partner too. After burning leads like Hippo, Pert and Meta, they become setup fodder. Also, he Spins.

-Starmie is an option too, because of its good Spinning Capabilities, and it can ohko Swampert with Grass knot.

Problems:
- Machamp and Smeargle are somewhat troublesome, and I'm not too sure about counters, so if anyone could advise some, that'd be great.

Team:
Here is an example of a team ILoveLiza and I made to test it.
http://pastebin.com/1iUsG7k4
It's not an amazing team, but it was great for testing Dusknoir as a lead.

...Annnnnd thats about it. Credits to ILoveLiza.
Thanks for reading :D
 
-*Machamp: Will-O-Wisps x2 (This one is dangerous) Another dangerous lead. You'll have to pray for both Wisps to hit this one. Nothing else you can really do. Will Definitely need something to back it up on this one.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to weigh in on the set, but Will-o-Wisp will always hit Machamp. No Guard gives both Pokemon 100% accuracy while Machamp is on the field.
 
Machamp isn't a problem. WoW can't miss due to No Guard and Payback does 31-37% (you're slower). You'll be at like 30% and he'll be burned after 2 turns, so you can Earthquake him (31-37%) and then Shadow Sneak (19-23%) before you die (plus 3 turns of burn damage - 37%).

Heatran is an issue, though he's easily counterable. Smeargle is a problem. Tyranitar is a bigger problem than Machamp with STAB Crunch. You almost have to switch out of him.

Metagross, Roserade, and Azelf are all ties. Metagross and Azelf can both easily setup rocks and switch out to explode/attack later. Not to mention that your second attack will be painfully obvious. Roserade can attack you once and get out and it's essentially a tie. Or just switch out, as it has its sash intact and you don't have rocks.

Overall, a reasonable lead, though a tad easy to switch into with its lack of strong STAB and reliance on Earthquake for attacking power.
 
Looks like this is another way to beat LeadMachamp one on one. Although I can see SubEncore Lead-Machamp be a very pain in the ass, especially if it has Payback. You can WoW it first turn, Lum activates, it subs, then proceeds to use Payback till you die. Otherwise this lead looks pretty cool and can be used as a possible Spinblocker later in the game.
 
I question this set's efficacy as an "attacking lead", simply because the point of attacking leads is to be overwhelmingly threatening *after* it KOs the opposing lead. Any old Pokemon can throw some attacking moves together, but the key is throwing said moves together and then still being threatening afterward. I'm not really seeing the "threatening afterward" part of it, mainly because Dusknoir has no reliable damage dealing STAB, no boosting item, and fairly mediocre attack.
 
@ SevenDeadlySins: Er, sorry if I got the term wrong. It may not have overwhealming attack, but it functions well as a lead. I'll get some logs up when i can
 
I don't see this working at all.Think to yourself...Why would anyone use this over anything else?I will show you why if you use this that you will lose to every lead.

Here is why this lead is bad:

Aerodactyl: Stealth rock, You Lose

Azelf: Stealth rock, You lose and azelf is in excellent shape

Swampert: Stealth rock , You Lose stab earthquake still hits what it wants to for decent damage after a burn like jirachi and heatran.

Jirachi: Trick ,Iron head,Stealth rock, Anything....And jirachi is in good shape after an earthquake You lose


Infernape: Still gets up stealth rocks. You say this isn't an anti lead but even you do that wrong. What is dusknoir doing?

machamp: Still pounds you pretty hard and he/she can predict the will o and go to shuca tran: You Lose

Roserade: If this gets popular (lol) then people will expect the lum berry like they do for machamp now and they will toxic spike up.You win when this set is not popular. but if they approve this set and people start using it (why?) You Lose.

Tyranitar: They crunch you and they have lum too. So will o is pointless . Or they set up rocks.You Lose

Gliscor: Set up rocks and roost off the pathetic damage. You Lose

Heatran: You lose

Ninjask: They still get a few boost and Baton pass to something like vaporeon who sets up iron defense most likely,or something with lum or yache berry. You Lose

Hippowdon: They set up rocks and roar spam. You lose

Starmie: They hydro pump or they go to metagross and set up rocks. You Lose

Dragonite: He still gets a tremendous hit on you after that its just set up rocks with tempo. CB outrage probraly Ko's you.You Lose

Uxie: You cant even touch it while it does nasty things to you You Lose

Fortress: Spikes Spikes Toxic Spikes Stealth rocks. You Lose

Smeargle: You cant even kill it. They spore twice. You lose If you cant even beat smeargle....

Skarmory: Sets up You lose

As you can see this loses to every lead.Except roserade which is not really common as a lead anymore.
 
I will show you why if you use this that you will lose to every lead.
Click to expand...

Kinda how like Machamp 'loses' to every lead that has an entry hazard? Gotcha.

and who the fuck leads with CBnite? =/

I'm not saying this is a great lead or anything but starting out the match 6-5 has got to count for something, definitely not 'losing'.
 
Mooo said:
@ SevenDeadlySins: Er, sorry if I got the term wrong. It may not have overwhealming attack, but it functions well as a lead. I'll get some logs up when i can
Click to expand...

It's not that you got the term wrong- this IS an attacking lead, since it's obviously not meant to STOP rocks, and it doesn't lay them down, obviously, so all it can really do is attack. That makes it an Attacking Lead, which is why I question how effective it is at doing that.
 
Bogmire said:
Kinda how like Machamp 'loses' to every lead that has an entry hazard? Gotcha.

and who the fuck leads with CBnite? =/

I'm not saying this is a great lead or anything but starting out the match 6-5 has got to count for something, definitely not 'losing'.
Click to expand...

Unlike machamp. This does't kill anything. 50% lead azelf for rocks, I think thats a good trade off.With Machamp they get up hazards. But they are dead or close to it. With dusknoir your lucky a hits a 3hko. This loses to smeargle.That alone is pretty damn bad.You say 6-5 has to count for something. But in most situations...This does not happen unless the opponent is on drugs.
 
LeadBat doesn't use CB.

Aero is a tie because it gets rocks up but you killed it. If it taunts you for some reason it dies.
Azelf is a win. It gets one move in. Taunt Rocks or attack. You 2hko all the time.
Swampy is a problem.
Gross is also a problem. If it uses rocks you just ruined it for the game. If it attacks then Dusky is out but again it is neutered.
Jirachi is why you pair this with a chioce Poke.
Nape gets rocks and nothing else.
LeadTar EQ it. You kill it before it kills you.
Machamp, not every team has bloody shuca tran. Dusky can take a timid flash fire Fire blast iirc.
Gliscor. gets rocks but then pressure means that run out of roosts real quick.
Ninjask loses to IP IP SS SS. The first two ice punchs break subs, the first ss stops the next sub and the second kills it. As for protect sash. Ice punch down to sash then priority.
Starmie is 2hkoed and they can't ko you.

As to the type of lead it is. I would refer to it as a LeadTank. A lead that does stuff and then comes back later and does stuff again. Especially when paired with wish support.
 
really we're going to use tournament success a measure of what is or isn't useful? as if every single tournament player uses the top 2 leads huh? everyone's just bursting to use good ole taunt sr explode azelf and aerodactyl to win tournaments

the noobs that these leads work on are the same noobs who dictate the stats of usage that make up the top10 so.............double standard much?
 
@Curtains: Er, no one says its as good as Machamp, and Smeargle can actually make a good lead.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned the fact that the opponent will get rocks up. How hard is it to put a spinner on the team? I'm pretty sure I made that clear too.

@remlabmez: It's not an anti-lead, and its not really a gimmick either. Lol, i know its not an AMAZING lead, but I've seen a lead Togekiss on site xD No need to hate.

@Aeroblacktyl: Huh?

K, I'm starting to see some problems with the set from what SDS said. Just keep in mind that not every lead out there is gonne be in the top 10.
Thanks for the comments guys.
 
I think SevenDeadlySins is right on the ''Afterward'' part, but let's not forget about how it can be a potential spinblocker later in the game. Sure it's no rotom, which is better at spinblocker. But at least this can work on offensive teams and saves you a spot on your team if you are using Spikes or Toxic Spikes. 0.02 cents right thar :P.
 
Mooo said:
@remlabmez: It's not an anti-lead, and its not really a gimmick either. Lol, i know its not an AMAZING lead, but I've seen a lead Togekiss on site xD No need to hate.

Just keep in mind that not every lead out there is gonne be in the top 10.
Thanks for the comments guys.
Click to expand...

2 issues here.

1: Maybe you should think about *why* Lead Togekiss is no longer on-site? When QC got a hold of it, it went away, because it's an extremely underwhelming lead. Bringing up Lead Togekiss isn't helping your case.

2: "not every lead is gonna be in the top 10" is true, but statistically, 46.82% of leads are in the Top 10, and for obvious reason: they're really damn good. To be a reliable lead, a lead needs to be able to deal with the *best* leads, because it's fairly simple to assume that a lead capable of dealing with good leads can also deal with bad ones, because the bad ones are simply inferior to the good ones. This is why we concentrate on the "top leads" all the time. It's not just because those are flat out the most common leads (though it does help), it's because beating good leads means you'll probably be able to beat bad ones.
 
Er, by mentioning Tokegiss, i was kind of questioning how it got on site in the first place lol.
And I can see how this is an underwhelming lead too. Thanks though, I had alot of fun working on it.
 
My friend used this against me so I had to try it out. It was decent. Decent meaning it works but I don't think it merits a set on site. It also relies a bit on surprise value, which it won't have much of if it gets approved.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
really we're going to use tournament success a measure of what is or isn't useful? as if every single tournament player uses the top 2 leads huh? everyone's just bursting to use good ole taunt sr explode azelf and aerodactyl to win tournaments

the noobs that these leads work on are the same noobs who dictate the stats of usage that make up the top10 so.............double standard much?
Click to expand...

hmm well this lead isnt great and the top 10 leads are actually good and viable in tournaments except for ninjask
 
I would like to request the poster to show us some logs with this lead in action. Post a row of consecutive battles in which you use Dusknoir, avoiding cherry-picking of course. Please, try to get this done as soon as possible. Thank you.
 
Im leaning towards rejecting this. While im sure it works, i don't really feel its analysis worthy. Unless logs are posted here that change my mind, I'm probably going to end up rejecting this.

and @Moo yes there is use in posting Gen 4 sets in QC still. Gen 4 is still going to be the standard for awhile until SB2 comes out and is updated with Gen 5 data. But more importantly, Gen 4 will still be played for years to come. the analysis will serve as a reference for sets even though we are gearing towards a new gen.
 
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