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Dragonite

Tobes said:
It should also be noted that a way to stop offensive Dragonite in a few situations is to force it into using Outrage, usually by sacrificing something your opponent's Dragonite can't do anything to with its coverage moves and needs to use Outrage to kill. This allows you to use your Steel-type to hurt Dragonite in whatever way it is able to without fear of Dragonite's coverage moves (i.e., Ice Punch Jirachi who would otherwise fear Earthquake, or Ferrothorn using Leech Seed to chip away at Dragonite's health with Seed and Iron Barbs, and not having to risk Fire Punch). This also helps weakened Scarfers revenge kill Dragonite without fear of having to eat an ExtremeSpeed.
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Agreed. Not to mention that Outrage gives you the opportunity to set a least one layer of spikes. This is also one of the reasons I run Protect on Ferrothorn; an extra 12.5% or even 25% can make or break the game.

Has anyone ever ran a variation on the Dragon Tail+Paralysis set? I tried Toxic on it for one match and it seemed pretty effective (although it has better things to do).
 
I did that with fire punch as a coverage move to poison the team, most people wasn't prepared for Gengar to sweep with Venoshock and Hex, but it's not as effective due to Dragonite not being able to Roost first in order to reactivate multiscale and the opponent not losing a turn every now and then, from experience I would say Gliscor is better at spreding poison (or the obvious toxic spikes)
 
ThePillsburyDoughBoy said:
Agreed. Not to mention that Outrage gives you the opportunity to set a least one layer of spikes. This is also one of the reasons I run Protect on Ferrothorn; an extra 12.5% or even 25% can make or break the game.

Has anyone ever ran a variation on the Dragon Tail+Paralysis set? I tried Toxic on it for one match and it seemed pretty effective (although it has better things to do).
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The whole point of the parashuffle set isn'o much to spread paralysis, it's to stall by abusing ms. Twave allows nite to get free roosts back up to full and than continue to stall out or dtail away

there are better status spreaders if that is your only intention
 
Here's a very effective rain special set that works well for me.

Dragonite @leftovers
EVs: 252 sp. atk, 252 spd
Multiscale
timid
Thunder
Hurricane
Ice beam
Surf

This set has great versitality. Three of its four moves get a boost from the rain. Thunder does huge damage and has unmissable accuracy with a very handy paralysis chance which can cripple revenge killers. Hurricane is its strongest special attack other than draco meteor and destroys loads of stuff. It also has pretty good coverage alongside thunder so roost can be used over ice beam for some more recovery. Ice beam is for other dragons particularly scarfed ones switching in expecting a dragon dance. Surf is great for things like heatran who would normally give dragonite a tough time if their balloon is up.
 
Needs Roost or Draco Meteor somewhere!

spuds4ever said:
Here's a very effective rain special set that works well for me.

Dragonite @leftovers
EVs: 252 sp. atk, 252 spd
Multiscale
timid
Thunder
Hurricane
Ice beam
Surf

This set has great versitality. Three of its four moves get a boost from the rain. Thunder does huge damage and has unmissable accuracy with a very handy paralysis chance which can cripple revenge killers. Hurricane is its strongest special attack other than draco meteor and destroys loads of stuff. It also has pretty good coverage alongside thunder so roost can be used over ice beam for some more recovery. Ice beam is for other dragons particularly scarfed ones switching in expecting a dragon dance. Surf is great for things like heatran who would normally give dragonite a tough time if their balloon is up.
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ThePillsburyDoughBoy said:
Has anyone ever ran a variation on the Dragon Tail+Paralysis set? I tried Toxic on it for one match and it seemed pretty effective (although it has better things to do).
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I believe that Parashuffler Dragonite takes advantage of the free turns provided by paralysis to set up a Substitute, Roost to activate Multiscale, or go for the Dragon Tail. Using Toxic over Thunder Wave wouldn't give you those necessary free turns, which means Dragonite is going to be taken out easily by faster Pokemon.

As much as I love Parashuffler Dragonite, there is nothing more frustrating than when the opponent carries Heal Bell. It is bad enough when they care a plethora of status absorbers and/or Ground-type Pokemon. I tend to agree with AccidentalGreed's post page back; DDnite with Roost + 2 Attacks is my favorite variation. It takes advantage of the fantastic ability that is Multiscale while relying on its great Attack stat to dish out classic Dragon-type STAB goodness.
 
Thanks for all the answers to my question. However, I think all of these "counters" are way too situational. Multi-scale makes Dragonite so versatile and effective. It can easily pass through its "counters" with the right set. It was this versatility that got Salemence banned 4th gen, wasn't it? With again, Cresselia being the only solid counter. I mean...does no one else think that this thing needs to be suspect?
 
Cressilia was hardly given any room to move considering U-turn, Scizor, Tyranitar and Rotom (with Ghost-type) was just too much for it to reliably switch in versus Salamence, tank a hit and live to fight another day. That said, it was more how Salamence could fire Draco Meteor so effortlessly, have Fire Blast/Brick Break/Earthquake to round of its offensive coverage like a champion. Not to mention he could also Dragon Dance in your face and derail your team with its respectable Attack and Speed.

I am strongly considering proposing a "suspect test" be run along side the Standard OU ladder. Now that everyone seems to be comfortable with the Fifth Generation, I see no reason, other than the fact it is another "project", to turn this idea down.

It would involve Garchomp, Excadrill, Blaziken, Thundurus and perhaps Manaphy. This would give all weathers and weatherless teams the chance to compete at the highest level instead of falling back on some varient of VoltTurn/Shell Smash, with the slither of differences in construction.

"lol how people claim those 6 pokemon to be their own when you encountered it 50+ times by a handful of different usernames"

I mean this BW metagame is already filled with Specs Draco Meteor, Life Orb Outrage, Banded Close Combat, and lots of momentum keeping the pressure on and remaining focused with the task in hand; to win. Look how Tornadus' Hurricane or Landorus' Earthquake (notably in sand storm after Bulk Up/Swords Dance) hit extremely hard. There's then V-Create, which is 270 Base Power without factoring sun into the equation.

I suppose Dream World is somewhat a "test for things to come", but I'm sure practically they would be very different. By the time a 3-month suspect test runs its course, new releases for Dream World may be available by then.
 
I think Mixed Dragonite really needs some more love. Everyone's initial response to it is a physical wall [Skarmory, Slowbro, Tangrowth, Quagsire, and Gliscor, to name a few] and they get utterly slaughtered by Draco Meteor / Fire Blast. It's a really good wall-breaking partner for DD Salamence since they have the same counters, especially since most people expect their roles to be opposite [for Mence to be mixed, and for Nite to be the DDer, since that's what they're most known for, respectively]. Nite can also run either ExtremeSpeed for that ever-so-useful priority, or Roost if you really want him to stick around as long as possible (although in my experience I've never really found that I have the time to, although I imagine it'd be really helpful against stall, but I would run Inner Focus as the ability and drop Earthquake for Superpower, because being walled by Blissey is not good).
 
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with BKC about the mixed Dragonite thing. I think that people right now are thinking that Dragonite is only viable with Multiscale, and they are completely forgetting that a mixed set without Multiscale is still a very nice choice in this metagame. It definitely has that surprise factor as BKC mentioned, with stuff like Draco Meteor killing Dragonite's normal switch-ins. I think that when people think about Dragonite they just think "Multiscale Dragonite with Dragon Dance," and that mentality has unfortunately made a mixed Dragonite set seem bad. It really isn't bad at all though.
 
The one thing I realized about MixNite is that it's terribly slow, which reduces its chance of using anything other than ExtremeSpeed or be forced out. If it wasn't for its LO-enhanced ExtremeSpeed to pick off offensive teams, I would probably go with MixMence all the way. I'd even say CM LO Latios is a much better wall-breaker than MixNite, Psyshock being used as its "physical" move, although Dragonite / Salamence has Brick Break to easily dispatch Tyranitar.

I also second Taylor's suggestion of a Suspect Ladder. It would be nice to have a chance to re-evaluate "borderline" suspect and see if the metagame has changed to better accommodate them.
 
I don't think Dragonite needs to be suspect-tested. It's probably the metagame-defining threat atm, but I don't think it's broken by any means.

I found a set that blends Dnite's great bulk and the versatility of a mixed set. I posted it a while back, and nobody really cared much about it then, but now that people are actually starting to talk about MixNite again perhaps it'll get more attention.

Dnite @ Dragon Gem
252 Atk/252 SpAtk/4 Spe
Quiet / Multiscale

Draco Meteor
Earthquake
Extremespeed
Fire Blast

It has good lead matchups, and vs. any other non-sandstorm lead it can quickly 1 or 2hko them to give you an advantage. Yes, it doesn't have superpower, but this isn't meant to break stall. It's just meant to have good type coverage, good bulk, and threaten a LumDD set in the early-game. Pairing it with another DDer is a fantastic idea.
 
Honestly the most dangerous Dragonite I face is choice band Dragonite, its ability to bring my walls to critical health/kill them with prediction is extreme deadly, as it can open up other pokemon to sweep with ease. "Regular" Dragonites are rarely a problem because they are always laking a move and sandstorm + stealth rocks quickly takes it down.
 
Banded Dragonites are easier to predict imo, especially if you run a few protect users, etc. If your opponent is using a banded set, you don't really need to be worried about being swept by ddnite.
 
With Slowbro, Scizor, and whatever major-league defensive / steel-type Pokemon that call OU their home still running around in the metagame, I see no need to be putting Dragonite up for suspect.

Max212 said:
Banded Dragonites are easier to predict imo, especially if you run a few protect users, etc. If your opponent is using a banded set, you don't really need to be worried about being swept by ddnite.
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I don't know if it's just me, but I see a lot more CB Dragonite than I do DDance variants, and this statement sums up the whole argument. Extremespeed and Outrage are just gobbled up by Pokemon like Jirachi and Ferrothorn, while Earthquake and Fire Punch can be easily taken by Rotom-W, all three of which are fairly common Pokemon in OU.

Of course, much like any set-up sweeper, Dragonite can get ridiculously powerful and fast, but with some prediction and decent team building, you can find Pokemon to easily beat out Dragonite. If it isn't running Waterfall or Earthquake on the DDance set, Heatran does an excellent job of this. And with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm being mainstays in OU, Multiscale shouldn't be the sole reason to even think of putting Dragonite up for suspect.

Mamoswine's another great check to Dragonite, having that ever-present Ice Shard, and even though it isn't seen as much, handles the classic dragon quite well once Multiscale is broken.

I don't see why Dragonite should become suspect.
 
Kenshiro said:
I don't think Dragonite needs to be suspect-tested. It's probably the metagame-defining threat atm, but I don't think it's broken by any means.
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Same could be said for the majority of suspects banned already. They were defining the metagame by influencing counters that so happened to help deal threats like Dragonite also; Quagsire dealt with Grass Knot-less Thundurus and most Dragonite versions bar Choice Band, which was probably akin to Quagsire's presense.

What determines tiers based on power still remains true to our "portray of an uber" characteristics, though if you and I all recall both Thundurus and Excadrill were banned at the same time. That said, Deoxys-S based-offense instantly threw all other styles off the radar in terms of competitivity, and it was rather predictable at the time. It may have not been much different if just one of Excadrill/Thundurus were banned, but it would have been interesting to say the least.

My proposal isn't strict on changing how the way Standard OU is today, but is a reminder for everyone, as Dream World releases continue, we may appreciate the knowledge we gain from this "suspect test"; and for future reference should it clash with how the DW OU metagame is looking now.
 
Theoretically, a Trace Porygon-2 can work against DD Dragonite, if you can keep entry hazards and Sandstorm away. P-2 can trace multiscale and become extremely bulky as long as it has full hp. It has recover to patch up that. Combine that with bolt-beam and toxic, it can work pretty well.
 
Porygon2 doesn't even really need Multiscale to check Dragonite. It can take a +1 LO Outrage with minimal Defensive investment and hit back with Ice Beam. +1 Bulky Dragonite also can't 2HKO with Dragon Claw and gets 2HKO'd back by Ice Beam.
 
DDRMaster said:
Porygon2 doesn't even really need Multiscale to check Dragonite. It can take a +1 LO Outrage with minimal Defensive investment and hit back with Ice Beam. +1 Bulky Dragonite also can't 2HKO with Dragon Claw and gets 2HKO'd back by Ice Beam.
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True, but a porygon2 with multiscale can toxic-stall entire teams as long as it doesn't get toxiced itself.
 
I don't know if it's just me, but I see a lot more CB Dragonite than I do DDance variants, and this statement sums up the whole argument. Extremespeed and Outrage are just gobbled up by Pokemon like Jirachi and Ferrothorn, while Earthquake and Fire Punch can be easily taken by Rotom-W, all three of which are fairly common Pokemon in OU.
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The problem with switching your Ferrothorn into CB Outrage is that's probably exactly what your opponent wanted you to do. It rips off about 40% of Ferrothorn's health and you won't be able to kill him before he kills you. CB Dragonite is all about punching holes in the opponents team (especially Steel-types) and then revenge-killing with Extremespeed later in the game - not sweeping.

CBNite also makes a fantastic lead by applying immediate pressure on the opponent, but you can also save him for later as an emergency check to almost any sweeper.
 
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