Also, Jiren should never smile. never.
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Media DRAGON BALL SUPER
- Thread starter blarajan
- Start date
If Jiren ever smiles at you you know you have chosen... poorly.
Oh boy, that was so cringy. This power of friendship nonsense doesn't really fit Dragon Ball and was never the theme. And it feels especially odd coming from Goku who only fights with others if he has to and not because they are his friends.
It was nice to see 17 wishing back everyone (despite it being predictable that everyone being wished back). Though it was disgusting to see that Zeno was just using the tournament to erase every participating universe unless one wishes all of them back.
I didn't imagine them justifying the wishing back in that kind of way, but Zeno accepting it because he can have a tournament more often if the fighters died. Guess that's what you can call "Subverting expectations".
Whis can apparently revive people, making death even more pointless, so 17 can use the normal balls to wish himself a boat instead of wasting them on Frieza. But they did cover a plothole, so that is nice. Also they had to rush through to end the series.
The very ending, however, was the most generic fanfiction ending I have seen as a fan of this franchise: Goku vs. Vegeta in their Saiyan Saga stance.
They further contradicted the fact that Goku "mastered" Ultra Instinct. It has a toll, he can't keep it up for long and he can't activate it at will. Totally Mastered, right?
oh, that reminds me. A Super movie... At least the animation style seems suitable for animation and people that watched Pokemon Sun and Moon probably know what they could do with it in battles such as Ash vs. Misty.
That is probably the only thing I can say. The last 2 movies were very disappointing, so I have no hopes.
It was nice to see 17 wishing back everyone (despite it being predictable that everyone being wished back). Though it was disgusting to see that Zeno was just using the tournament to erase every participating universe unless one wishes all of them back.
I didn't imagine them justifying the wishing back in that kind of way, but Zeno accepting it because he can have a tournament more often if the fighters died. Guess that's what you can call "Subverting expectations".
Whis can apparently revive people, making death even more pointless, so 17 can use the normal balls to wish himself a boat instead of wasting them on Frieza. But they did cover a plothole, so that is nice. Also they had to rush through to end the series.
The very ending, however, was the most generic fanfiction ending I have seen as a fan of this franchise: Goku vs. Vegeta in their Saiyan Saga stance.
They further contradicted the fact that Goku "mastered" Ultra Instinct. It has a toll, he can't keep it up for long and he can't activate it at will. Totally Mastered, right?
oh, that reminds me. A Super movie... At least the animation style seems suitable for animation and people that watched Pokemon Sun and Moon probably know what they could do with it in battles such as Ash vs. Misty.
That is probably the only thing I can say. The last 2 movies were very disappointing, so I have no hopes.
And he does like Super Bu too.
honestly kind of glad super is over so that you are finally free from posting your needlessly critical opinions on a thread about a cartoon aimed at children. (Also, friendship has never played a part in the series? Do we not remember why Goku attained super saiyan for the first time...)
I liked the finale :~) I thought the animation was impressive for the most part and was satisfied, although another episode or two would've been nice.
Why have so many people been frought with the misconception that this is the series finale? it isn't. DBS is just going on break, it's even implied during the narrator's ending speech. I say this because there were a ton of comments on Youtube uploads of the clips/episode saying stuff like "rip dbs", "i'll miss dbs so much" and the like. The idea that this is the grand finale of DBS is blatant misinformation that has sadly spread quite a bit. Not only does it not make sense from a story standpoint, where we have a new form that hasn't been fully explored and around 1/3 of the multiverse left to see, but it also makes no sense from a financial standpoint to axe the series right when it's at the peak of popularity and is making a shitton of money.
ok mini rant over
episode was cool, end scene was kinda neat albeit sort of generic and not even unique (something similar was done with the manga)
ok mini rant over
episode was cool, end scene was kinda neat albeit sort of generic and not even unique (something similar was done with the manga)
stop watching things you don't enjoy and then posting how much you hate it in a thread where reception of it is fairly positive.
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I liked the ending! 17 becoming "human" after all was a really nice touch and Frieza fighting with Goku to take down Jiren was v. cool. I did think the reason for the tournament was kind of weird but eh? God of All is basically a toddler who just wants to please himself so it kind of fits.
Aimed at children? That explains why the Black arc was so colorful and full of comic relief or the show runs on Adult Swim in the states.
Every time if people don't know what to say, they use the same repetitive statements "It's for children.". As if that makes it immun to criticism.
Goku turning SSJ is not an act of friendship, but anger. Goku didn't get motivated by Krillin being in danger or getting cheerleaded. Krillin died, and as Goku thought at the time, it was permanent.
You can put it in asspull if anything but not "power of friendship".
I am a fan of this franchise and if I see it becoming bad, I will call out the bullshit. The fact that "everyone" is so positive despite being awful is more than enough reason for me to exist in this thread.
I actually want it to be good, believe it or not.
Do you have actual proof for it just being on hiatus? Money is not always a factor. The voice actors are too old and worn down to the point they may need a break or they could be out of story ideas etc.
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God, how full of yourself can you be to actually think you are "needed" to counterbalance in a thread when most of your complaints have just been angry ramblings about how predictable and cliche it is (which doesn't mean bad btw).
It didn't have as many lighthearted moments, but it definitely did have a good amount of them, despite it being noticably darker in tone. Also, yes, it is aimed at children. It comes on in Japan at a timeslot for them, and hell, Dragonball as a series has always been targeted towards young kids in at least Japan since at least the anime started (not 100% sure about the manga, but i assume it would be the same age range, if not a bit older). Not to mention, kids shows can easily have darker moments and arcs. Why would having one suddenly exclude the show from being aimed at them?
edit: so this isn't just being annoyed at someone's ridiculous ego:
I liked the end of Dragon Ball Super. No, the writing isn't super good or amazing, and it was pretty predictable, but that doesn't suddenly make it bad. It's how it is executed that matters way, way more, and I say it executed it well. It stayed true to what Dragon Ball has generally always done, and didn't try and be subversive or twisty to try and be cool or some shit.
What i really do like is how Jiren wasn't finally defeated by Goku alone. It took a team effort of him, 17, and Freeza to finally take him down, furher driving home the point that bonds, teamwork, and trust can allow for people who are individually weaker to overcome those stronger then them. Yes, thats cliche as fuck, but I love how they did it here,a nd how nice to looked to watch, and i was smiling and laughing the whole time
Oh, and Kale and Caulifla are the best characters to come out of Super
It didn't have as many lighthearted moments, but it definitely did have a good amount of them, despite it being noticably darker in tone. Also, yes, it is aimed at children. It comes on in Japan at a timeslot for them, and hell, Dragonball as a series has always been targeted towards young kids in at least Japan since at least the anime started (not 100% sure about the manga, but i assume it would be the same age range, if not a bit older). Not to mention, kids shows can easily have darker moments and arcs. Why would having one suddenly exclude the show from being aimed at them?
edit: so this isn't just being annoyed at someone's ridiculous ego:
I liked the end of Dragon Ball Super. No, the writing isn't super good or amazing, and it was pretty predictable, but that doesn't suddenly make it bad. It's how it is executed that matters way, way more, and I say it executed it well. It stayed true to what Dragon Ball has generally always done, and didn't try and be subversive or twisty to try and be cool or some shit.
What i really do like is how Jiren wasn't finally defeated by Goku alone. It took a team effort of him, 17, and Freeza to finally take him down, furher driving home the point that bonds, teamwork, and trust can allow for people who are individually weaker to overcome those stronger then them. Yes, thats cliche as fuck, but I love how they did it here,a nd how nice to looked to watch, and i was smiling and laughing the whole time
Oh, and Kale and Caulifla are the best characters to come out of Super
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It is bad. How can there be an arc about the destruction of multiple universes and still no tension? And yes, especially the use of cliches in Super is terrible and they have too many of them.
The point was that they try to appeal to adult audience as well hence the attempt of a darker tone in the Blue Trunks arc. There are plenty of movies and series aimed for children that have something for adults to enjoy.
In fact, you actually provided another point why the "It's for children" argument doesn't work.
If a series is "pretty predictable" that is bad. We knew the outcome to any arc besides one: Universe 6 and that didn't really matter.
And it wasn't even executed well. Goku could have used the Zeno Button the moment they realized they couldn't defeat Black. Instead of letting Trunks face the trauma of losing his universe and have an actual character arc, they just ignored that and sent him to a similar timeline.
In ToP they could have knocked out majority of the people from the start if they were serious. Same with Jiren who didn't even bother to knock out most of the characters. All the universes were finished by Universe 7. It relied to much on fan service (the lowest form of entertainment).
There were too many plot convinience and the power scaling was very inconsistent. Anyone could beat anybody at any time when the plot demands instead of actually earning it. Such randomness doesn't equal good execution either.
The worst part is, most of the nonsense of the ToP arc could have fixed like instead Goku having infinite stamina and Vegeta keep pulling out more final flashes despite wasting all of his energy, they could have used the B Team (17 and 18 perferably since they have infinite stamina) to actually get legimate spotlight until they recover.
They don't want to eliminate U6 Saiyan immediately? Make the God Ritual actually plot relevant by having the U7 and U6 team form a temporary alliance to defeat Jiren, who could just ruffle stomp an entire universe and actually give characters a boost established by the series itself.
Thus you have more competitive fighters in the tournament and even a small detail like Vegeta saving Cabba makes more sense in storytelling perspective.
Personally I've enjoyed dbs for what it is but I think a lot of points mertiville made are justified, I noticed some of these flaws as well. You can argue that he is too harsh and the show's strong points lie in other things than story telling but his criticism isnt comming out of nowhere.
I just hate Super because it's another one of those shows that originated in the 80s that gets reduced into "generic flashy lights series but with the bastardized versions of your favorite characters."
I don't care about the contradictions, inconsistencies etc.. I just hate how a series I liked BECAUSE it was so different than the other anime I was exposed to is now considered just like every other series.
I'm also really upset because Super destroyed most of my favorite characters in the DBZ fighting games from getting in. SSj4 Goku, Baby, Super 17, Majuub. I will legit shell out an extra $30 to get Fighterz if they just put SSj4 Goku in but they never will now.
I don't care about the contradictions, inconsistencies etc.. I just hate how a series I liked BECAUSE it was so different than the other anime I was exposed to is now considered just like every other series.
I'm also really upset because Super destroyed most of my favorite characters in the DBZ fighting games from getting in. SSj4 Goku, Baby, Super 17, Majuub. I will legit shell out an extra $30 to get Fighterz if they just put SSj4 Goku in but they never will now.
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there were times were i felt like this
during the universal tournament for instance, i was frustrated by how friendly goku acted with frieza, like you can say whatever you want about character development but that was just dumb, remember that frieza is the one villain who goku hated so much he legit wanted him to die
what would've made sense was if goku and frieza's interaction was less of a partnership and more of a reluctant alliance where they backstabbed and talked behind each other's backs, eg during the tournament goku could've gotten cornered by an enemy and then he could've grabbed frieza by the tail and flung him at said enemy to buy time for himself. Or what about a scene where Frieza tries to harm Goten out of anger that he has to ally himself with saiyans and then Goku swoops in, grabs him by the arm and nearly breaks it before flinging him to the ground? interactions like that would've been both awesome and hysterical
anyone have any ideas of who the villain in the new movie coming out later this year? I was thinking it could be the 'creator' of the Saiyans or whatever you wanna call it, or even Yamoshi (but afaik Yamoshi only went SSJ1 so not likely). In any case, already hyped from the teaser trailer we got a couple weeks ago here:
Okay, I think Super warrants significant criticism, but compared to GT? No way anyone will convince me that GT is less BS than super— there is literally nothing from GT I’d be interested in rewatching.
If I was going to be a die-hard for purity, the best of DBZ, the formula is simple— watch only up til the end of Cell Saga and skip filler. Oh wait, they already made a product that was exactly that with even density from better editing; called “Deagon Ball Kai.” The mertyvilles of the world should just watch Dragon Ball Kai, and frankly, they’re the audience it’s made for.
Majin Vegeta, best parts of Buu series, best parts of tournament of power— these would all be better as movies; but frankly you CAN organize and approach those bits as if they were just added movies. Nothing stopping you from rearranging and enjoying the content to your own needs. I probably won’t ever revisit Majin Buy series except for Majin Vegeta part and Vegeto kicking buu’s Ass part... but there it is. If I want to watch the best parts of super, there are the two movies and I know which episodes have Ultra Instinct in them.
And if I ever want to marathon the very best of DBZ with no terrible distractions, there’s Dragon Ball Kai right there.
Honestly, I like the Buu saga the most because it feels like the only saga that isn't trying way too hard to be super serious in a series that i frankly think works way better if it doesn't take itself too seriously. This is super easy to find in the Cell saga, which just feels... dull as hell. Not any kind of actual levity or charm in it. just a bunch of boring fighting with one of the most boring villains in the series. Hell, Broly is better then Cell to me because at least i can find some kind of enjoyment in Broly just utterly wrecking everyone in a ridiculous kind of way. Cell, i can't. He's just a boring and bland potato that i cannot ever get behind as a good villain. And also, somehow coming back from blowing himself up was 100% bullshit and worse then almost anything people whine about in Super
If you want to imply I would enjoy a cashgrab like Kai and consider the Cell Saga a good enough arc compared to the Buu Saga or GT, you are actually mistaken.
The training filler and the driver's license episodes where the shit from Z and honestly better than any material past the Frieza Saga. Also the animation difference looks insignificant to me.
The Cell Saga was a complete mess with time travel, the room of spirit and time coming out of nowhere (so convinient. Wish they trained ealier in it) and Cell being a shit villain especially after losing anything that drove his character and becoming a generic movie villain and every character made one of the worst desicions they could have made like Vegeta actually telling Cell that he would help to get his full power before Cell even thought about approching Vegeta about it intensionally.
Baby from GT did what Cell did much better and actually used his knowledge of the characters he is fighting to his advantage like attacking Goku's family or targeting Earth for his Garlic Gun so Goku won't dodge it.
Cell didn't even bother using the Solar Flare to blind Gohan or try the Kaioken, but I guess blowing himself up worked out fine. He survived after all even if it was by sheer luck.
For me what made the Boo Saga shine was Mr Satan actually developing fat Buu and being a key character in "kid" Buu's defeat. I thought Vegeta got some great development when he finally accepted Goku the Number 1 (thx Super for retconning that) and there was Videl.
Fighting-wise the Kid Buu fight was the only satisfying though since most of the others where eiher dragged out or connected to some bullshit like Ultimate Gohan ruining Gohan's character too me and the Fusion gag fights went for too long.
The only good thing about the Cell Saga was Gohan being a badass and actually taking responsability for his stupidity and the 2 fights Goku vs Cell and Piccolo vs 17 (which again comes down to stupidity since Piccolo lured Cell to the androids whereabout"). Every other fight was just one sided or dragged out.
And if you want to have complete control of what you watch, there would be no need to bother with Kai. You can just watch the scenes you want to watch that badly on youtube or write down/memorize the episode and timestamp on your purchased medium and keep looking at it until you are tired.
The time travel plot is a mess, but I don't hold a series like Dragon Ball to the same standard there as I would something like Steins;Gate-- picking that apart seems unnecessary.
Your point about the depth on the villains rings true to me, but it's basically true for every villain post-Vegeta. Frieza and Cell at least have personalities to speak of-- I could lay out descriptions of their personality and character. Can't say the same for "evil Buu" or barely even for "fat boo." And Baby? That's a real stretch man.
Yeah, but Cell's goal was never to simply win by any means possible anyway-- his personality was driven by his belief in perfection, and the whole point of existence was to prove his superiority on the same terms. It also would have meant very little to the story for him to use Kaiouken or Solar Flare-- the effect on the plot would be literally the same as any other technique he did use.
I will grant you that the buu arc was a great arc for Vegeta, whose story as a character wouldn't really be complete without it. Mr. Satan I never cared about and still don't care about. That's part of why I said that even if you get rid of buu as an arc, you still need a movie about Majin Vegeta, or maybe some content with a hightened focus on Vegeta in general.
And unlike the point about time travel, power scaling in fights is something that SHOULD matter to Dragon Ball because it is core to the universe, and its reality is the reality of how realistic it feels. The buu arc is a mess compared to the cell arc, and actually feels like a mess because of much of what was established in the cell arc.
It might be because I was a fan of Gohan as a kid, but it's because this was an arc that best climaxed Gohan that to me it was a great arc. If you're like me and you started with Dragon Ball Z, coming in-- Gohan is the character who is most relatable for a 1st world youth audience. An honest preppy kid with zero knowledge of this world of fighting he's about to be dragged into. He's more relatable than the world champion alien Goku, who has fighting-lust Saiyan instincts that most of us do not share.
The story of Gohan's hidden potential and its ultimate fruition in baton passing from his father is the world's hero should have been the best ending point, the best developmental point for the 2 most important characters. This is underscored by the point that while Buu might be a great arc for Vegeta, it's really unimportant for Goku's case, and he actually has to be regressed as a character in later series to make for any development (in GT, this is literally true). Goku is never smarter, wiser, or more developed as a person than at the end of Cell Saga.
Gohan is a death to the series-- you cannot continue the story of Dragon Ball with a protagonist who doesn't love fighting. But there really shouldn't have been a need to continue it.
Hah, that's actually quite the apt description of basically exactly what I do.
That point only holds truth for Frieza. Cell had no defining personality. He wasn't cunning, he wasn't having a superiority complex. Unless you watch him dubbed in a certain language. It was actual filler that made his first form appealing to me back in Z and it is a disappointment that such a character didn't live up to my expectation. When you want to go by personality, all Buus except the one nobody remembers (the grey buu) have fun personalities of which honestly only one got developted in Fat Buu.
Baby being smart is not a stretch. He actually learned from his defeats against Goku, Pan and Trunks and also used the information he gathered to invade earth. Guess what? He succeeded.
Honestly, I would say even Garlic Jr is a more interesting villain with his history with Kami and becoming the new god of earth.
The only antagonist that are more disappointing and more bland than Cell from the top of my head are Jiren and Super Android 13.
Time Travel plots are by definition a mess. I have yet to see a good time travel story.
The main appeal of Cell was him knowing the techniques of the Z Fighters and how they fight. With his vast movepool and potential strageties he could have overcome Gohan in "theory". This would have been a great way to showcase if Gohan could outperform Cell in an even match with what he learned from his dad. At the end it boiled down to simply overpowering the opponent again and Cell blowing himself up.
Would you care to give examples of what you are talking about? The holes in the Cell Saga are blantly obvious especially knowing that Toriyama's editor pressured him to introduce new villains which made the arc worse. Like why didn't Goku or any Z-Fighter in the future go in contact with King Kai and figured out where New Namek is or something.
Have you actually watch GT? It tackled Goku's character flaws like being a "bad parent figure" and actually taking responsability for his actions. He was shown to be a mentor figure for both Trunks and Pan during the look for the Ultimate Dragon Balls (even thought the early parts were still terrible). The Shadow Dragon Arc was the peak of Goku actually becoming a caring grandpa. Also he overcame the form in which he killed his grandpa in and compressed it into a form more suitable for combat.
You can continue a series with Gohan as a protagonist even if he doesn't love fighting. I would like to use Bleach as an example which suffered from other problems than Ichigo not wanting to be the strongest shinigami or something.
The problem with the Buu arc was how Gohan obtained his final power-up. And I honestly think Toriyama at the time figured it out and scrapped the idea of Gohan beating Buu. He waited 24 hours (which he actually didn't but I don't think the exact time was stated) and had access to all his powers without the need to waste stamina through transforming. He also didn't act like Gohan when facing the person who killed his mother and videl but more like Vegetto.
Cell Saga was the best arc, Goku was a true father that arc, especially if you include the filler in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and people who complain about Goku being a bad father need to rewatch the Cell arc again. Goku managed in a day to raise his son to his potential more than years of Piccolo and others would. Everyone complained at him but Goku knew his son. I like experienced father Goku rather than manchild Goku which is why Cell is my favorite arc and why I liked GT.
Honestly, who cares about plot when watching a show about beefy dudes punching each other. Quite frankly, DBZ has a better plot than most modern anime and movies, and I mean that genuinely. It's easy to follow and its message is clear. Controlled masculinity and desire for self-improvement/response to a need is how a man overcomes his problems. It is a message that applies to real life and you don't have to spend 80 million years analyzing it just to convince yourself that you didn't waste hours of your time on a show.
I would enjoy Super as a mindless, entertaining but shallow continuation of Z if it wasn't for episode 66, 67, Kale and Caulifla. Even though I hate manchild Goku. The problem is they exist and it butchers the main theme of DB.
Honestly, who cares about plot when watching a show about beefy dudes punching each other. Quite frankly, DBZ has a better plot than most modern anime and movies, and I mean that genuinely. It's easy to follow and its message is clear. Controlled masculinity and desire for self-improvement/response to a need is how a man overcomes his problems. It is a message that applies to real life and you don't have to spend 80 million years analyzing it just to convince yourself that you didn't waste hours of your time on a show.
I would enjoy Super as a mindless, entertaining but shallow continuation of Z if it wasn't for episode 66, 67, Kale and Caulifla. Even though I hate manchild Goku. The problem is they exist and it butchers the main theme of DB.
Lol, that sounds more like you are unable to figure out basic plots of other shows and excusing frankly awful writing that DBZ had. It doesn't matter if the plot is shallow, or it somehow doesn't matter? Like, what kind of fucking statement is that? People care about plot because a good one actually makes the show more enjoyable to follow and you can actually feel some kind of investment. Not whatever dumb, half-baked message about being a man and masculinity you got out of it that wasn't even the point of the show at all. Hell, if it does have one (i don't think Toriyama worte the series to even have an overarching message at all), it would be to always keep trying to break your limits and never give up in your pursuits, which is not a soley male thing.
I mean, it does sound like you've only ever seen the original american dub of DBZ, got super enamoured with it and thought that was what the series was all about, and got pissed at Super because it isn't original american DBZ dub continued when it was never gonna try and be that at all. Thats your issue, not anything to do with Super itself
I mean, it does sound like you've only ever seen the original american dub of DBZ, got super enamoured with it and thought that was what the series was all about, and got pissed at Super because it isn't original american DBZ dub continued when it was never gonna try and be that at all. Thats your issue, not anything to do with Super itself
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"It's about trying to break your limits and never give up in your pursuits, had 0 to do with masculinity."
False. That's every modern anime, which pale in-terms of popularity to DB and never managed to cater beyond its audience in the West. (Yes, there is a growing trend in Anime recently, but everybody who talks about OP/Bleach/Naruto, etc. are all from the same base, it never appealed to casuals. I met a good portion of practicing Shiites in Iran and some of them liked DBZ so this might not even just be a Western thing lol.) A lot of casual men got aspired to exercise and go to the gym because of DBZ. (Honestly, can't deny that I myself get pumped by anything 80-90s Dragon Ball) Also, Toriyama himself stated that Goku was inspired by Bruce Lee who is the epitome of what I said last post. The inspiration from the successful men/ideals from the real world definitely helped make the world of Dragon Ball feel real itself and inspires its audience in a real way. Doesn't matter if it was intended or not.
Z was easy to follow lmao, I understood the time travel stuff when I was 8 since the show explained it. You have grown men spending hours trying to make sense of the Super time travel because it's not only convoluted but impossible. Funnily enough, Super tried to be complex while Z was much simpler. The latter ended up much better, and it's inconsistencies can be easily forgiven. Simple plots > over convoluted "deep" plots. (GT stayed simplistic and managed to create a empathetic villain 100x better than Zamasu)
False. That's every modern anime, which pale in-terms of popularity to DB and never managed to cater beyond its audience in the West. (Yes, there is a growing trend in Anime recently, but everybody who talks about OP/Bleach/Naruto, etc. are all from the same base, it never appealed to casuals. I met a good portion of practicing Shiites in Iran and some of them liked DBZ so this might not even just be a Western thing lol.) A lot of casual men got aspired to exercise and go to the gym because of DBZ. (Honestly, can't deny that I myself get pumped by anything 80-90s Dragon Ball) Also, Toriyama himself stated that Goku was inspired by Bruce Lee who is the epitome of what I said last post. The inspiration from the successful men/ideals from the real world definitely helped make the world of Dragon Ball feel real itself and inspires its audience in a real way. Doesn't matter if it was intended or not.
Z was easy to follow lmao, I understood the time travel stuff when I was 8 since the show explained it. You have grown men spending hours trying to make sense of the Super time travel because it's not only convoluted but impossible. Funnily enough, Super tried to be complex while Z was much simpler. The latter ended up much better, and it's inconsistencies can be easily forgiven. Simple plots > over convoluted "deep" plots. (GT stayed simplistic and managed to create a empathetic villain 100x better than Zamasu)
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I'm pretty hyped about the Dragon Ball Heroes OVA. It's nice to just know that I can ignore the plot since it's all just supposed to be complete fanservice and not drive a narrative. I've missed seeing SSj4 in animation and honestly this crossover stuff sounds like it can only be cool.
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