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I’m curious how draft rosters would be balanced and maintained throughout the year, admittedly some stuff ends up not being the appropriate price point but people don’t realize until later on and now someone has a cheap broken on their team. Would there be trades / FA’s allowed? What if you just draft a bad team? Are you stuck with it all season?
Beyond this I would like to either see Draft be further integrated in with other official usage based tiers or even gift draft their own set of trophies. Draft would be cool to have here as as OG draft player but I have a lot of questions about it
I’m curious how draft rosters would be balanced and maintained throughout the year, admittedly some stuff ends up not being the appropriate price point but people don’t realize until later on and now someone has a cheap broken on their team. Would there be trades / FA’s allowed? What if you just draft a bad team? Are you stuck with it all season?
Draft team tours tend to run a break week for a midseason, usually just before the half way point of the tour. It usually consists of 5-6 transactions (assuming 2 drafts, up to 8 if its 3 drafts) per team which they can spend on swapping out Pokémon on their draft so long as they do not exceed their budgets. While that's not completely feasible in SCL, running a midseason alongside the midseason auction for players in week 5 does seem feasible to offset this.
There also are rarely, if any, matchups that are truly unwinnable. You can see all of this year's DCL matchups on the sheet linked earlier and while some are better than others, we saw many upsets in matchups that on paper looked favoured, and we never saw any matchups that were completely dead on arrival. Drafting well is a skill and while a midseason exists to help offset experimentation, it is something that teams have to account for, they do ultimately make the final choice on which draft they bring into a given week.
i'm not sure what there is to elaborate on, it is a different format. maybe it's slight hyperbole to say that it is a different game, but it is just a fundamentally different format
magic the gathering professional circuit has constructed formats, it does not mix draft formats with them because they are fundamentally not the same
hearthstone world championships (constructed) don't have an arena section or an arena slot, because they are fundamentally not the same
any other card game i've ever played has clearly distinct constructed and draft ladders and competitive ecosystems, because they are fundamentally not the same
football with 11 players and football with 8 players are different sports that do not share a competitive scene, and so on
just because the mechanics of the game are the same doesn't mean that it makes sense for the competitive scenes to be merged, when the fundamental rules are so completely different
i think draft is great but it just has nothing to do with classic smogon formats. give it its own trophy or trophies, do not force it into SCL
The difference between draft MtG and standard MtG are far far far different than in Pokemon. Just because these other random ass games use the term "draft" does not mean they are the same thing or even comparable. Also if I was putting together a football circuit and someone said 8v8 cant be included because its “too different” I’d punt them across the field.
just speaking as a spectator as i couldnt give a flying fuck about what tier makes it to scl, make it six partners in crime slots for all i care.
i think the "draft is hype to watch" point is being overtly exaggerated. draft is hype to watch when you are involved. thats the fun part of draft, you see your friends/rivals send crazy sets you didnt expect and now might prep for, see huge upsets bc the underdog prepped better, follow a youtubers path into victory with sets you dont really agree with (please aim stop using lead gliscor and life orb mewtwo), etc.
without all of this very important context, draft games are just seen (at least by me, probs by more people too, maybe not the majority) as regular games. without context, draft games and ou games arent differentiable hype wise. yes, you will have instances where you see the craziest, 1v1-esque set, but other times you will also just see a mon sit on the opposing six for a hundred turns, and most of the times it will just be a normal mons game. there are probably good arguments for and against draft's inclusion, but hype is to me overstated, draft without context is just plain mons
I don't think draft should be added to this tournament. I've played in the first 3 of these and managed in this past one, and from both positions I don't think I would want to have a draft slot included on my team. This is also coming from someone who enjoys draft, I play it a lot in casual discord leagues and have joined multiple indiv and team tournaments on smogon, so I have no inherent bias against draft. A lot of this thread will probably end up being the opposite with draft players being very vocal about supporting their tier which is fine, but I think the core issues need to be addressed before anything else and simply adding on numbers of support doesn't help.
We just had almost the exact same thread for monotype, with the conclusion of it not being added. The last post should entirely stand and I don't see why it wouldn't, a thread on the policy of what gets in and what doesn't should be discussed before any new tiers are made. If it doesn't happen, then monotype kinda just got fucked over for literally no reason if other tiers don't have to abide by the same rules on getting into scl. Either way, monotype on smogon has a longer history and should realistically get in first if we were to expand scl, but that's not the point of this thread, I just think this past tournament policy thread is incredibly important to the discussion since the conclusion of it was specifically that we need to lay down a groundwork for how new tiers can get in.
As for the arguments in this thread, I think the ones in favour of draft come from a lot of points of bias (again fair since it's draft players posting), but not a lot of reasonings that would make draft anything special. It gets a lot of tournament signups but something very important to note is that it doesn't have a ladder because as a concept draft literally just can't, which separates it from every other tier in every offical team tournament. Forum tournaments are the only way for smogon to have the format played so it'll naturally clear a lot of other sections in terms of signups since newer players can just jump on ladder in everything else. I think having a ladder and traditional tiering system is also really important, it makes draft incredibly isolated from everything else in the tournament and also means you just can't play it casually or work to pick up the intricacies on it through trial and error, since there's just no where to play it consistently. In the past I've tried laddering in lower tiers for other tournaments, like I played 100+ dou games in both gen 8 and 9 during some weeks just to get up to speed to help my team. Being able to do this as a teammate and as a manager is incredibly useful, and it restricts what the draft slot could actually be in a major tournament like this where your whole budget already is spread out across the rest of the metagames, then you're adding in a format where you can't ladder and the way prep is done is incredibly different to where it's not as plug and play for most users to actually help out and work as a team, which is kinda the whole point of scl spl wcop. The prep being different also just like isn't a good thing imo, it's been mentioned as something interesting but that's kinda all it is. Draft has its gimmick which is cool in a vacuum, it's why I play it, but again making it a completely different way of prepping from the traditional tiering system where you have all legal mons at your disposal and instead are super heavy on counter teaming one specific build every week just makes it more work and less likely for new people to approach the slot on a team. It's not inherently bad since it's what makes draft different but it's definitely not a good thing at least for a team tournament with other tiers, neutral point at best imo.
Generally just agree with what Kate posted but wanted to expand on what I was thinking a bit more, the format of SCL as is feels really solid as both a player and manager, wasn't too overstretched on work which could happen w 12 slots since I know even as someone who doesn't have much old gens prowess SPL felt busier just as an environment. No need to fix a format that isn't broken, it works well to highlight all the other lower tiers in our tiering system and going out of that definitely isn't needed, nor is expanding the tournament to be bigger just to be inclusive. Definitely don't kick any tiers either, any tier bashing posts that have already been sent just look bad on the cause.
i'm not sure what there is to elaborate on, it is a different format. maybe it's slight hyperbole to say that it is a different game, but it is just a fundamentally different format
magic the gathering professional circuit has constructed formats, it does not mix draft formats with them because they are fundamentally not the same
hearthstone world championships (constructed) don't have an arena section or an arena slot, because they are fundamentally not the same
any other card game i've ever played has clearly distinct constructed and draft ladders and competitive ecosystems, because they are fundamentally not the same
football with 11 players and football with 8 players are different sports that do not share a competitive scene, and so on
just because the mechanics of the game are the same doesn't mean that it makes sense for the competitive scenes to be merged, when the fundamental rules are so completely different
i think draft is great but it just has nothing to do with classic smogon formats. give it its own trophy or trophies, do not force it into SCL
Wasnt planning on taking part in this discussion since im unsure If i would even take part in SCL as a draft main but lax made a great post that caught my interest and this reply in specific could use my contribution as its incredibly misleading and even looks like done with a bad intent to keep the format away.
I have played Draft for over 7 years now and have played one of your examples, Hearthstone for even longer than that and your point comparing draft league and the different card games all are extremely flawed. OU and Standard HS is a fair comparison, they are both constructed formats but Draft League and HS Arena are nothing alike. Using your own logic, Arena would fall much more in line with randbats since the player is dealt pseudo-random tools and has to use them to navigate through game(s) while Draft League, using the card game terminology you used, would definetly fall under a constructed format as the player fully has control of what tools he will bring to a game, with the drafting aspect presenting It as a condition with like HS Wild and HS Twist formats falling as the better examples just like LC and DOU would fall in this same category. So in the end your comparison is flawed and Draft and "Standard" Tiers are much more alike than you realize and saying that its even more different than LC and DOU are to OU is not true.
So to add on to my correction i would also express my support to the rest of the players in the community that would like to see the format added, its a very competivive format with a community with great players, both deserving of recognition to take part in a tour like SCL.
The qualms of draft being uncompetitive or matchup dependent is quite unfounded. Just like any other standard tier draft games comes down to 2 main factors that make it competitive: prep and play. Draft just puts more of a emphasis on prep than standard tiers, and at the top level you will rarely if ever find yourself completely lost on matchup/preview. There will always be ways to make progress, whether that is through unique sets, gathering information during the game, or just outplaying. (This is even more true for sv compared to old gen draft due to the existence of tera) At its core draft is not that much different from other 6v6 tiers imo. The more skilled player will end up winning more often than not no matter what drafts they're using, and to me that is the hallmark of a competitive tier.
Also wanna echo the sentiment that draft is extremely fun and allows for anyone to support and help during the prep stage. To me it feels less isolated than most other slots since the slot more directly profits from creativity, innovation, and tests. It has the most direct correlation I've experienced in a format in terms of time investment -> success as well which I feel is a good thing to bolster activity and discussion within the server. If a manager/teammate truly wants to support their draft slot, it is very easy for them to do so as long as they're willing to put 15min of their time into mocking. And in my experience, any mock is a useful mock, even if the person helping has less knowledge regarding draft. I think the upsides of adding draft outweighs any potential negative and at worst it'll just have similar activity as any other low tier in the tour.
On a personal note I think it'd be cool for drafts inclusion to SCL if simply for there to be a prestigious team tour for top draft players to fight week in and week out. Whether draft mains will be picked or not idk but draft team tours have too many slots for the established top players to be matching up against each other consistently every week.
Realistically, is there any actual opposition to a potential Draft Individual? Surely if we're considering including it in SCL this should be on the table and (frankly) seems like it would satisfy both parties here.
Hey! A lot of you don't know me, particularly those on the Smogon side as I've been a Draft main for a few years now and I tend to play it exclusively now, but I'm Happygate and I am (at best) a subpar Draft Player. I was also recently one of the hosts (with Princess Autumn) for the most recent Gen 9 Draft Seasonal, but truthfully, I have next to no skin in this game. I am not "Top Draft Talent" by any means, and I am in no way good enough to be drafted in SCL or SPL. With all that said, please consider my plea, as I am writing this out of genuine love for the game. I support the motion to add Draft to SCL.
I think Draft's biggest boon, and why it should be added to SCL, is how cooperative and team-focused the format is. Plenty of other, better players, can, and have (see above), argue over balance and whether or not Draft is comparative to other metagames already in SCL. Instead consider this: Draft, by its shear existence, will encourage activity. While I'm sure that this will be a point of contention--and it will also be argued that the other tiers also provide this--hear me out. Draft is the intersection on the graph of "Time put into Prep" and "Margin of Competitive Advantage" meet, where gaining the slightest edge--be that through finding a new, cheap Tera mon to abuse the format, or your opponent making a drafting "mistake" allowing your team to pick up a Pokemon you otherwise shouldn't have--is vitial to the success of your tour. No other format currently in SCL offers this skill. Other tiers may offer something similar--such as using an unconventional pokemon or strategy in a new way--but never to the degree that Draft offers. This "Intersection" is what makes Draft so cooperative and team-focused. Every player on your roster will have an idea, contribution, or suggestion to add to make your draft better, I can almost promise this (I cannot promise that they will all share their thoughts, however). And while part of the reason everyone will have an opinion is due to the volume of Pokemon, particularly since Draft spans all Pokemon in every tier, there is also something to be said about the resource management Draft forces in the builder.
In a team based setting, everyone will naturally want to contribute to making the best team possible--however they see best. In an eight mon draft (the suggested format by Princess Autumn, and what is used in almost all of our main tournaments) you cannot draft every type. It is just not possible. Sacrafices and concessions must be made in the builder. There is no way around this. These concessions are points of discussion. Does our Volt-turn team need a dedicated rocker/spiker and if so are we okay with getting one that maybe can't pivot? Does our team have enough offense or is it too slow and passive? Are we hitting the important speed tiers needed to keep up and revenge certain threats? Do we have/do we need a grounded Poison to absorb Toxic Spikes? All of these are common points of suggestions just in the drafting phase alone, and once the match-ups are out you will have a million more, individualized suggestions, ideas, and comments regarding the specific game. No other tier currently in SCL generates this type of in-depth discussion--instead focusing on broad general strokes of metagame trends and scouting opposing replays. Draft meanwhile, encourages these contributions and tends to stray away from sweeping generalizations in favor of making the best team possible, however possible.
In advance, I would like to apologize if I have misrepresented standard play (as in not Draft) above. My knowledge and understand is very limited, as I am not the greatest player, but I have played in a few unnofficial team tours and none of them have ever been as active as the Draft team tours I have been a part of. Maybe it was because I had bad teams or they were unnoficials, I don't know. Either way, please support the motion to add Draft to SCL, if you have not already. It's a great metagame and one that would enhance SCLs prescense and prestige as the top team tour on the website.
SCL shouldn't be expanded to include Draft. SCL should only be expanded if SCL is going to be expanded. At that point, if there is an empty slot up for grabs, it should be a community decision as to what format will go in that slot. There is really no reason at all why Draft would or should automatically get that sort of slot, as the format does not have any objectively based arguments to support it over other formats like Monotype, National Dex, etc. It should be what the community overwhelmingly supports for that slot - if that's Draft then sure go for it, but to seemingly expand the tour just to include Draft is a pretty big insult to every single other format on Smogon that has some fringe hope of getting into SCL. All marginally eligible/sensible formats should be allowed to present their case for inclusion and then let the community decide.
Immediately saying I don't have much of a stake in the matter and draft does have very real merits, but I do think that it's important to acknowledge that the nature of SCL playoffs raises interesting problems for this proposal.
In a full season of draft you'll have a mix of good matchups, bad matchups, and everything in-between. This allows for a pretty neutral spread throughout the season. However in playoffs you're kind of just stuck with whatever matchup you're given. This leads to moments where one player is at a distinct advantage in a do or die game before the the match has even begun. Other tiers in the tournament do not allow for this in the same manner, and it is debatably against the ethos of the tour. Sure, it may seem the 9-0 player has an advantage over the 3-6 player, but there is nothing in the way of the player with the worse record from putting in the work to make a good team, playing well, and coming out the other side victorious. Draft matchups can often put up major roadblocks that players may struggle to overcome through no major fault of their own.
It should be noted that the matchup issues in the playoffs are further compounded in tiebreaks to such a high degree that if Draft is included into the tournament, Managers should probably be restricted from being allowed to be chosen. I don't think I need to reiterate why, but having a disadvantaged matchup outside of your control that would otherwise be normalized out in the regular season put on full display in your most important game of the season just isn't fun.
I also do want to note that the dilemma of bad draft matchups in playoffs may not something that would happen regularly, but is nonetheless still a decently likely possibility and less preventable than loading a half baked team and complaining about matchup
Not to be a party pooper, but is there any actual basis to this other than Draft being popular and some people finding it fun? Snake's mission statement is ostensibly being the SPL mirror for lower tiers (or official/core metagames, whatever they’re called).
Maybe I'm wrong, but this comes off as people who seem to think SCL is somehow inherently less serious than the other trophy team tours just wanting to punt some funny gimmick into the tour, because fuck it, it's just SCL right?
I mean for starters: no, the arguments are largely about the format making the tournament better, not trying it as a gimmick. Perhaps try to engage with what is being said and not make sweeping accusations.
Regardless, I think a lot of people feel SCL could use a small upgrade. In my opinion, it is a good tournament, but some do not respect it (took me 30 seconds to find 1, 2, and 3 with countless other exampls being out there) the same as SPL or view it as needing more identitiy, differentiation, or draw. This is a proposal that addresses these!
For me speaking as a TD, but not the sole decider: I like SCL as is and think the status quo is fine. I am excited about it and I am content with the format, but I also hear the feedback from the community and people in this thread that improvements can be made. Part of our job is to match the evolving needs of Smogon after all, so I am glad this discussion is happening. I find so many of the posts opposing draft to not engage with the actual arguments being made, instead dismissing it as a gimmick (and the point on tiebreaks is just laughably bad skill issue tier arguing). I think it would be interesting to give it a shot -- the playerbase is there, the quality is sufficiently controlled, and it is arguably just as (if not more) competitive than formatss currenly in the tour. These are parameters we have historically used and I find a lot of people are moving goalposts to fit their personal agenda, which is a rough sell.
I was aboutta say something but Finch said it perfectly
Many of the arguments are “what’s the point?” Or “other tiers deserve better”, which I find to be unhelpful and unimportant to the discussion
I brought this up bc I think Draft is a super competitive metagame and contributes positively to the tournament. I’m not saying the tour is bad or needs change; I’m saying I think Draft simply would make it even better. This is the bottom line
SCL shouldn't be expanded to include Draft. SCL should only be expanded if SCL is going to be expanded. At that point, if there is an empty slot up for grabs, it should be a community decision as to what format will go in that slot. There is really no reason at all why Draft would or should automatically get that sort of slot, as the format does not have any objectively based arguments to support it over other formats like Monotype, National Dex, etc. It should be what the community overwhelmingly supports for that slot - if that's Draft then sure go for it, but to seemingly expand the tour just to include Draft is a pretty big insult to every single other format on Smogon that has some fringe hope of getting into SCL. All marginally eligible/sensible formats should be allowed to present their case for inclusion and then let the community decide.
this type of post in particular is pretty weird to deal with. It’s “unfair” to other metagames, but I’m just bringing up the idea of including this tier, just like every other tier can.
There’s nothing about Draft “automatically” getting any spot.. that’s the purpose of the thread to discuss it. Yeah, man, every other tier can actually present their case in another thread and then whatever happens, happens. There is a mix of tier competitiveness + activity + a million other factors that go into if a tier can be added, and if Draft does end up coming out on top, that is what it is. Instead of complaining about what would happen if it makes it, people can make a thread for their own tiers and see how it fares. This mentality of “my tier vs their tier vs their tier” literally only brings harm to ANY of these tiers making it in, so I’m always so dumbfounded by this. Who’s to say Draft’s (not even confirmed btw) inclusion won’t pave the way for future reform in tournaments? Stop this nonsense. No tier is entitled to anything besides the classic lower tiers. That’s the point of the discussion. Nothing is stopping other tiers that think they have a case (IN ANOTHER THREAD !)
If your guys’ main argument is “what’s the point?” Or “why should we?”, please come up with a reason that a competitive, versatile, and teamwork based tier should not be included in our Current Generation tournament
Describing SCL’s identity as being the “Current Gen Tour” seems disingenuous when:
1. SPL and WCoP also have a heavy focus on current gen
2. Several explicitly current gen and competitive tiers like AG or ZU aren’t in SCL, which doesn’t make sense if the purpose is just to be CG
Like I say in the post, it seems a lot more accurate to describe SCL’s identity as representing Smogon’s Core/Official metagames, which makes a lot more sense when you consider that the tiers currently in SCL are literally just the list of Core Metagames linked, with the exception being Monotype, the only Official Metagame not included for balance reasons. I was actively laddering and playing in skype tours for Monotype when it got added to this list, and I remember the changes in how the tier operated that came with that status. If Draft meets the requirements and wants to become an Official Metagame too and get added to the list, they can apply, then I have no complaints. My point as of right now is that if we start ignoring the identity of SCL and just add tiers that are popular, it starts to feel very arbitrary what tiers are included and takes away from the identity and prestige of the tournament, as well as making other popular CG tiers wonder why they aren’t in the tournament.
I mean for starters: no, the arguments are largely about the format making the tournament better, not trying it as a gimmick. Perhaps try to engage with what is being said and not make sweeping accusations.
Regardless, I think a lot of people feel SCL could use a small upgrade. In my opinion, it is a good tournament, but some do not respect it (took me 30 seconds to find 1, 2, and 3 with countless other exampls being out there) the same as SPL or view it as needing more identitiy, differentiation, or draw. This is a proposal that addresses these!
For me speaking as a TD, but not the sole decider: I like SCL as is and think the status quo is fine. I am excited about it and I am content with the format, but I also hear the feedback from the community and people in this thread that improvements can be made. Part of our job is to match the evolving needs of Smogon after all, so I am glad this discussion is happening. I find so many of the posts opposing draft to not engage with the actual arguments being made, instead dismissing it as a gimmick (and the point on tiebreaks is just laughably bad skill issue tier arguing). I think it would be interesting to give it a shot -- the playerbase is there, the quality is sufficiently controlled, and it is arguably just as (if not more) competitive than formatss currenly in the tour. These are parameters we have historically used and I find a lot of people are moving goalposts to fit their personal agenda, which is a rough sell.
It also seems disingenuous to start off by saying I’m making “sweeping accusations” by saying the idea of adding draft is partially motivated by the idea that SCL is a more “for fun, who cares” tournament, and then in the literal next paragraph reinforce your overall argument by cherry-picking random jerkers who don’t play or care about SCL at all. I can find plenty of examples of SCL players saying exactly the same thing about SPL:
I’m sure you would call this a “ridiculous statement”, and I would agree, but it’s literally the same as what you’ve linked. We can do better than to argue SCL’s already strong format needs to be “freshened up” because of the musings of ignorant discord posters who, lets be real, won’t suddenly start caring because of the addition of one slot.
Overall, I just don’t see a basis for draft being added to this tournament, being popular, current gen, and having competitive integrity isn’t enough when you remember the many other formats not in SCL that could be described in the same manner. And many of those tiers feel much more similar to the other standard formats than the quite alien, off-the-field focused draft style of play. LC and Doubles are also “different” but at the end of the day fundamentally feel much more similar to OU, for example just at a different level, or with two pokemon instead of one. When I say “gimmick”, it’s not me calling Draft unfun or uncompetitive like is seemingly being implied, it’s just a factual statement of how different it is from standard play. VGC is an awesome format and I’d probably call that “gimmicky” in the context of SCL too.
So why bother messing with a perfectly good tournament and its identity to randomly add something that seems like an awkward fit and that many people seem to not want?
I like draft when I’ve tried it, this isn’t a hate post by any means. A draft trophy in some form could be perfectly cool, but honestly just refer to the posts in this thread, especially Fc’s that really emphasise the problems with jamming it into SCL.
That’s the whole point of threads like these. People have made Monotype threads, people have discussed ZU, and so on. What you see as competitive vs what others see as competitive can different. Same with playerbases and other points. We are never going to fit everything CG in, but the objective is to find the most fit and there’s absolutely a strong argument for draft.
Like I say in the post, it seems a lot more accurate to describe SCL’s identity as representing Smogon’s Core/Official metagames, which makes a lot more sense when you consider that the tiers currently in SCL are literally just the list of Core Metagames linked, with the exception being Monotype, the only Official Metagame not included for balance reasons
I am a policy TD and I do not personally care whatsoever about the official metagames arguments. Draft is not even a metagame in the same sense as the others and it is newer on Smogon, but yet it is among the most popular formats — we have to think outside the box at some point.
Regarding official connections: If it has great overlap, cool. If not, oh well. It’s just like SPL with generations of OU: if they’re all represented, awesome. One day when we have so many generations, who the hell knows if we will be able to keep them all forever? As I said in my post, the job of TDs is to fit the evolving needs of the community.
Maybe ignoring your personal definition, but you have multiple policy TDs explaining how that personal definition is not fully accurate and plenty of others arguing it is fine, so just want to put a stop to this being spoken as fact.
We can do better than to argue SCL’s already strong format needs to be “freshened up” because of the musings of ignorant discord posters who, lets be real, won’t suddenly start caring because of the addition of one slot.
You claim to dispel the bit about “sweeping accusations” and then say this. Dunno man…I was not even going to bother responding initially as I hate these quote-for-quote back-n-forth arguments, but please please please actually engage with the arguments made by draft frequents on the first page — this is not a slam dunk discussion. There’s arguments for the status quo or including other formats, which we have seen great support for like Monotype and even ZU, but all you have been doing is focusing on the application of definitions and perceived identities.
I think the core argument here should simply be: do you think the best SCL has Draft or not? Why or why not? Because we are getting way off base.
When I say “gimmick”, it’s not me calling Draft unfun or uncompetitive like is seemingly being implied, it’s just a factual statement of how different it is from standard play. VGC is an awesome format and I’d probably call that “gimmicky” in the context of SCL too.
As Draft's other community leader, feel I'm obliged to contribute to this discussion: lax did a great job of enumerating my thoughts: one of our community's goals is to enhance competitiveness at all levels to better explore metas and enable creative thinking/play making. Draft does an exceptional job of highlighting those attributes, and is wildly popular as compared to some other parts of the site that are included.
I think SCL is a prestigious tournament and there's plenty of talented Draft mains who would love to be able to contribute to a SCL team more effectively, and I think there's plenty of goodness for our community to continue to share with the smogon-faithfuls in this thread that want SCL to remain a format that they're familiar with. My question would be: what do you have to lose from giving Draft a test? I think we've done a great job at meeting all expectations placed on our format thus far, am obviously biased. For the one guy that said we didn't have a ladder format and thus weren't qualified or whatever - Draft Factory will be a real thing at some point I just need to keep bugging my friend who knows how to code
Conversely, if Draft's hype holds up and we continue drawing the sort of large crowds we have been the last two years, when will be the right time to give Draft a bigger platform to compete on if not now? What benchmarks exist between now and then (whether its SCL inclusion, a trophy tour, etc) that would make the larger Smogon crowd more amenable to the idea? I saw someone mention a Draft individual though admittedly I'm not super smart on what that would entail, if someone wanted to illuminate on what that would look like I'd be appreciative.
Regardless of how the conversation progresses, thanks to everyone in the thread for expressing your concerns and recommendations - these things will only ever happen if passionate individuals are vocal about their opinions, so I'm glad we're having this conversation.
when will be the right time to give Draft a bigger platform to compete on if not now? What benchmarks exist between now and then (whether its SCL inclusion, a trophy tour, etc) that would make the larger Smogon crowd more amenable to the idea? I saw someone mention a Draft individual though admittedly I'm not super smart on what that would entail, if someone wanted to illuminate on what that would look like I'd be appreciative.
I was thinking about this yesterday, but I think the TD team should figure out a general plan for how we want to handle tiers like Monotype/VGC/Draft for both individual and team tournaments. Once that plan is complete, then we can post it in PR as a proposal and see how it goes. I mentioned individual tours, and that would be figuring out if we want to make more trophy tours like how we did for DOU with OSDT. Unsure on the formats, but aside from trophy inflation and the current calendar year being very busy, I think it'd be fine to look into.
Every year we always get a thread for "x tier should be in SPL/SCL" and then it ends up being people arguing for their tier, usually in favor of removing another tier, and then people being forced to defend their tier and it's never productive. I think figuring out what we want to do with all tiers at once is better and for this thread, I think it's mainly a question of keeping the status quo or expanding SCL to 12 slots, with the 2 slots being some combination of Draft/VGC/Monotype/4th OU or whatever else. I think any post suggesting to keep 10 slots and removing an existing tier is a non-starter, and would never happen at this stage.
Realistically, is there any actual opposition to a potential Draft Individual? Surely if we're considering including it in SCL this should be on the table and (frankly) seems like it would satisfy both parties here.
This would be the only possible bad outcome for this thread. People that subscribe to the kumbaya mentality that every tier deserves equal representation are fundamentally misunderstanding that Tournaments exists as its own area of the site, with its own users, and not as an external thing to serve other areas of Smogon.
Other than OSDT which was created to appease Doubles players after they were removed from SPL after being in it for years, and as a result is treated like a joke by everyone other than a handful of DOU players, every other individual tournament was born out of a genuine desire to play those tiers by people that play tournaments, in addition to the people that only play those tiers. Also, before what i can only describe as make-a-wish foundation-esque process that created OSDT, every tier other than CG OU was packaged with other tiers for a cohesive tournament structure. It is actually patently absurd that OSDT gets fewer sign-ups than DPP Cup every single year the 2 have existed, and yet one gives a trophy while the other gives entrance to a playoffs where you need to play 4 other tiers to get a trophy.
OST got created because it's an obvious tournament format, Tour got created because people wanted to play in live tours and in the 3 latest OU's, at the time RBY, GSC and ADV. Later when Tour was forced to include Ubers and UU because the simulator couldn't support GSC and RBY people got a taste for those tiers, so once gen 5 came out and the new simulator could support the last 3 OUs, Grand Slam was created to give people an avenue to play those tiers (and it was undestood that it would be patently ridiculous to just have an Ubers or UU trophy tournament, so they're packaged together with RU, NU and LC). Same thing with Classic once gen 6 came out and ADV was out of tour. Same thing with Masters when SV came out and ORAS was out of Tour.
No one, Draft player or tournament player, actually wants an individual draft tournament. It's being proposed as a tier in SCL (and taken seriously itt) because some of the actual stakeholders of tournaments think Draft has something to offer specifically in a team tournament context with the whole team prepping the slot thing (which i agree is a neat dimension btw, i think it would be fine in SCL. But that's orthogonal to my main point). The impetus to make an individual trophy for Draft comes as fiat from people that somehow got convinced these tiers are entitled to these things by virtue of... existing? Having a lot of sign-ups to their circuits? Circuits which were created, for the exact purpose of giving these communities some structured competition, because it was understood that Tournaments exists for the sake of Tournaments, not for the sake of serving other areas of the site.
Being the one to say "No" is not fun and doesn't make you popular, but it's the exact reason why we need TD's that understand what tournaments are about and are willing to make hard decisions for the sake of quality, even when that is in opposition of inclusion. Somehow the word "prestige" has become a bogeyman in these discussions and wanting to increase it is seen as an inherently bad and elitist thing but some level of gatekeeping is necessary to preserve the illusion that any of this shit matters. We can't let any tier that gets x number of players have their own trophy and still keep the wheels of tournaments as a community and section of Smogon that exists for its own sake turning.
Playing at a high level is exhausting, ask anyone that has built and tested 5 teams for Slam/Classic tiers in 1 week. Getting frozen 4 times in a game you really care about is heartbreaking. Having to schedule and reschedule, sometimes several games a week is tiresome. People spend their blood sweat and tears, for several months at a time, to win these tournaments that give 16x16 pixels and sometimes (!) a negligible amount of money because there is a mythology that surrounds them that makes us fall in love with this. You wanna be McMeghan flinching Lavos' entire team, you wanna be ABR winning OST in 10 turns with a Togekiss, you want to be Tricking winning OLT without dropping a single game, you want to be SoulWind winning a finals after losing the 5 previous ones.
OST existing and having the same format for 20 years matters. Grand Slam serving to show the person can master several extremely different tiers that are changing all the time matters. Classic serving to show you dominate tiers that have been getting refined since Bill Clinton was president matters. These tournaments have souls and if they didn't exist, we as a community would create them immediately. Any other tournament being proposed is only coming up because Draft was brought up for SCL, which makes a lot more sense than an individual to me, but the appetite for an individual just doesn't exist. Giving out Trophies to whichever community comes along and asks for one dillapidates the essence of this area of the site and makes every trophy that came before shine a little less brightly. There is a real cost to creating individual tournaments that needs to be weighted against any desire for inclusion.
Assuming the person reading this is someone that's somewhat interested in tournaments and follows them, search your heart right now and tell me you can name the 4 OSDT winners without looking it up.
This would be the only possible bad outcome for this thread. People that subscribe to the kumbaya mentality that every tier deserves equal representation are fundamentally misunderstanding that Tournaments exists as its own area of the site, with its own users, and not as an external thing to serve other areas of Smogon.
Other than OSDT which was created to appease Doubles players after they were removed from SPL after being in it for years, and as a result is treated like a joke by everyone other than a handful of DOU players, every other individual tournament was born out of a genuine desire to play those tiers by people that play tournaments, in addition to the people that only play those tiers. Also, before what i can only describe as make-a-wish foundation-esque process that created OSDT, every tier other than CG OU was packaged with other tiers for a cohesive tournament structure. It is actually patently absurd that OSDT gets fewer sign-ups than DPP Cup every single year the 2 have existed, and yet one gives a trophy while the other gives entrance to a playoffs where you need to play 4 other tiers to get a trophy.
OST got created because it's an obvious tournament format, Tour got created because people wanted to play in live tours and in the 3 latest OU's, at the time RBY, GSC and ADV. Later when Tour was forced to include Ubers and UU because the simulator couldn't support GSC and RBY people got a taste for those tiers, so once gen 5 came out and the new simulator could support the last 3 OUs, Grand Slam was created to give people an avenue to play those tiers (and it was undestood that it would be patently ridiculous to just have an Ubers or UU trophy tournament, so they're packaged together with RU, NU and LC). Same thing with Classic once gen 6 came out and ADV was out of tour. Same thing with Masters when SV came out and ORAS was out of Tour.
No one, Draft player or tournament player, actually wants an individual draft tournament. It's being proposed as a tier in SCL (and taken seriously itt) because some of the actual stakeholders of tournaments think Draft has something to offer specifically in a team tournament context with the whole team prepping the slot thing (which i agree is a neat dimension btw, i think it would be fine in SCL. But that's orthogonal to my main point). The impetus to make an individual trophy for Draft comes as fiat from people that somehow got convinced these tiers are entitled to these things by virtue of... existing? Having a lot of sign-ups to their circuits? Circuits which were created, for the exact purpose of giving these communities some structured competition, because it was understood that Tournaments exists for the sake of Tournaments, not for the sake of serving other areas of the site.
Being the one to say "No" is not fun and doesn't make you popular, but it's the exact reason why we need TD's that understand what tournaments are about and are willing to make hard decisions for the sake of quality, even when that is in opposition of inclusion. Somehow the word "prestige" has become a bogeyman in these discussions and wanting to increase it is seen as an inherently bad and elitist thing but some level of gatekeeping is necessary to preserve the illusion that any of this shit matters. We can't let any tier that gets x number of players have their own trophy and still keep the wheels of tournaments as a community and section of Smogon that exists for its own sake turning.
Playing at a high level is exhausting, ask anyone that has built and tested 5 teams for Slam/Classic tiers in 1 week. Getting frozen 4 times in a game you really care about is heartbreaking. Having to schedule and reschedule, sometimes several games a week is tiresome. People spend their blood sweat and tears, for several months at a time, to win these tournaments that give 16x16 pixels and sometimes (!) a negligible amount of money because there is a mythology that surrounds them that makes us fall in love with this. You wanna be McMeghan flinching Lavos' entire team, you wanna be ABR winning OST in 10 turns with a Togekiss, you want to be Tricking winning OLT without dropping a single game, you want to be SoulWind winning a finals after losing the 5 previous ones.
OST existing and having the same format for 20 years matters. Grand Slam serving to show the person can master several extremely different tiers that are changing all the time matters. Classic serving to show you dominate tiers that have been getting refined since Bill Clinton was president matters. These tournaments have souls and if they didn't exist, we as a community would create them immediately. Any other tournament being proposed is only coming up because Draft was brought up for SCL, which makes a lot more sense than an individual to me, but the appetite for an individual just doesn't exist. Giving out Trophies to whichever community comes along and asks for one dillapidates the essence of this area of the site and makes every trophy that came before shine a little less brightly. There is a real cost to creating individual tournaments that needs to be weighted against any desire for inclusion.
Assuming the person reading this is someone that's somewhat interested in tournaments and follows them, search your heart right now and tell me you can name the 4 OSDT winners without looking it up.
I understand fundamentally where you are coming from with this post but to me it reads as little more than distilled kosher tournament elitism. I want to preface this by saying I do not necessarily think Draft should get its own individual with a trophy, and I also understand that this is out of the scope of what this thread was created to discuss, I just want to address some of these points because it honestly feels really icky no good stinky booboo to me personally.
People that subscribe to the kumbaya mentality that every tier deserves equal representation are fundamentally misunderstanding that Tournaments exists as its own area of the site, with its own users, and not as an external thing to serve other areas of Smogon.
Respectfully- no one is saying this. No one is arguing that Draft should have an individual just for the sake that Draft exists. The impetus for this thread was that Draft has a large following with a strong pedigree of competitive playersand that giving such a format presence in an official tournament could be- as star put it- "shiest."
every other individual tournament was born out of a genuine desire to play those tiers by people that play tournaments
So the rest of the site has to cater to this amorphous, impossible-to-define genus of the site because...? This seems to be a recursive issue. Until the tournament community opens up to new tournaments, no new tournaments will ever be added. Where is the line? What is the bar for entering this community? What about the several tournament players in this very thread asking for more Draft presence?
It is actually patently absurd that OSDT gets fewer sign-ups than DPP Cup every single year the 2 have existed, and yet one gives a trophy while the other gives entrance to a playoffs where you need to play 4 other tiers to get a trophy.
So having a lot of sign-ups is suddenly now NOT criteria for getting an individual? How can it be absurd that OSDT (trophy) gets more sign-ups than DPP Cup (not trophy) if sign-ups don't actually matter as a metric?
it was understood that Tournaments exists for the sake of Tournaments, not for the sake of serving other areas of the site.
Oh. So there is no objective measurement at all, it's just that this group of shadow people who talk on Discord servers gets to decide who wins a trophy based solely on... vibes, I guess?
No one, Draft player or tournament player, actually wants an individual draft tournament
Except for the people asking for it in this exact thread? You know- the post you responded to?
The impetus to make an individual trophy for Draft comes as fiat from people that somehow got convinced these tiers are entitled to these things by virtue of... existing?
Again, literally no one is saying this. I would understand this point if this thread were to discuss giving every official metagame its own trophy tournament. It's not. This thread was created because people see Draft as a competitive format with a lot of potential for growth, and they want to see that reflected in the main tournament scene- one way or the other. Literally no one has said what you keep repeatedly saying people have said.
We can't let any tier that gets x number of players have their own trophy and still keep the wheels of tournaments as a community and section of Smogon that exists for its own sake turning.
While I agree with that we shouldn't give trophy tournament to a metagame just because it hits X amount of sign-ups, however, I do not think that a metagame that has proven to be popular shouldn't be passed over solely in the name of gatekeeping, nor out of fear of this slippery slope idea that adding one individual for one metagame is suddenly going to involve giving every metagame from randbats to natdex its own trophy (especially when these metagames in question have been around longer and have yet to hit the same popularity as Draft). Maybe we ought to rethink the idea that the Tournaments community exists "for its own sake" and consider making it exist as a medium for communities with proven competitiveness and activity to showcase their skills on a larger stage? I don't know, maybe I haven't made it clear enough, but this idea that the Tournaments community exists above and beyond the rest of the site seems odious in a way to me that feels very antithetical to what this site is supposed to be about.
Playing at a high level is exhausting, ask anyone that has built and tested 5 teams for Slam/Classic tiers in 1 week. Getting frozen 4 times in a game you really care about is heartbreaking. Having to schedule and reschedule, sometimes several games a week is tiresome. People spend their blood sweat and tears, for several months at a time, to win these tournaments that give 16x16 pixels and sometimes (!) a negligible amount of money because there is a mythology that surrounds them that makes us fall in love with this. You wanna be McMeghan flinching Lavos' entire team, you wanna be ABR winning OST in 10 turns with a Togekiss, you want to be Tricking winning OLT without dropping a single game, you want to be SoulWind winning a finals after losing the 5 previous ones.
From here on out the rest of your post is just an emotional appeal all to say "adding new trophy makes old trophys less good." To which, like, I guess I agree with? But, like- did adding OSDT make OST or Grand Slam or OLT less interesting or prestigious? I mean, OST became a tournament only a decade ago. I'm with you that we shouldn't just throw out trophies like candy but at what point are missing the forest for the trees? At what point are we skipping out on a potentially highly competitive tournament with a strong level of interest only to chase an incredibly nebulous atmosphere of prestige?
Anyway, my point in all of this is that when what TPP said comes true and discussions appear about giving metagames that are popular on the site their own individuals, I would really implore you to think of reasons for saying no other than that the Tournaments community exists as an untouchable branch of this incredibly complex tree called Smogon.com. People come to this site to play and discuss certain metagame they like. At what point do we stop catering solely to this "Tournaments," this group that exists in this shadowy hard-to-navigate, unwieldy corner of the site, and start actually promoting metagames that people actually play and engage with?
The way I see it is this: a trophy should come to a community as a reward for proving deep competitiveness and strong, consistent levels of activity, not the other way around. But this only works if we agree to not deny communities that reward in favor of maintaining arbitrary and subjective measurements of 'prestige.'
I'll begin with saying that I’m someone with no skin in the game (no draft experience nor official smogon tournament experience), and I’m just following this thread cause I find it amusing.
That said, I don't see why Fc and TPP's posts should just be the conclusion of this thread. All arguments for/against Draft in SCL aside, was it not the very conclusion of the Monotype situation that the process by which metagames can gain greater representation is too vague, and efforts should be focused on defining the process first before rushing to add tiers to SCL?
I'm not here to evaluate the validity of the claims of either side, but what I can say is that a lot of people with bias for/against the inclusion are posting their thoughts to the thread. And without a way to more objectively weigh the voices of each side, it's hard to really progress the discourse in a meaningful way (as stated in the conclusion of the Monotype thread!). As such, I think that the best course of action would be to postpone this discussion until a transparent process can be revealed by which tiers can get included into SCL and whatnot.
That all said, I'm also someone with little experience on the site, and there might be something I'm missing here. If I'm just yapping, then please feel free to ignore my post and carry on with the discussion at hand.
Being the one to say "No" is not fun and doesn't make you popular, but it's the exact reason why we need TD's that understand what tournaments are about and are willing to make hard decisions for the sake of quality, even when that is in opposition of inclusion. Somehow the word "prestige" has become a bogeyman in these discussions and wanting to increase it is seen as an inherently bad and elitist thing but some level of gatekeeping is necessary to preserve the illusion that any of this shit matters. We can't let any tier that gets x number of players have their own trophy and still keep the wheels of tournaments as a community and section of Smogon that exists for its own sake turning.
Not here to really argue because I agree with the bulk of your post but it should be said that this is the exact mentality that led to the Nugget Bridge split, and it has taken until only very recently, if even remotely, to bring a semblance of the VGC scene back into the Smogon fold.
"No" does need to be said from time to time, but there's more at stake than numbers, competitive integrity, and pixels when it comes to these decisions. We're a massive community - more often than not, inclusion is going to be better than exclusion in the long run. It's just about finding the proper home for whatever it is.
Draft is an official quality tier as far as I’m concerned. It has official quality players and current official players who are highly capable at draft. The tier itself has pretty even MU+skill expression unless your draft is bad, which is a fair punishment. A draft trophy individual seems too soon, DOU had years of official representation before getting its own tour, maybe down the line. Draft would be a pretty easy inclusion into 12 slot SCL.
The bigger question is if we’re willing to make the shift to a 12 slot SCL. I personally, am hesitant. Even with a budget rise, fielding 8 different tiers and 4 SV OU (which has proven to require some 3k gambling) sounds difficult especially considering when less lower tier mains bleed into multiple tiers. 10 slot SCL has also been quite enjoyable and stable, I’m not tempted to rock the boat.
Including draft into WCOP/SPL or dropping LC/DOU from SCL are both meme options to me. It would be based to have an official for semi-official tiers in a Grand Slam-esque format, something like Monotype/Draft/NatDex, but those tiers are obviously fundamentally different so it’s probably not practical.
I’d be excited about Draft but think we shouldn’t force its inclusion, this is probably a thread to be revived closer to next SCL.
I think that the pro-Draft posts from lax, Star, Tony, and Xing do an incredible job of laying down why including Draft in this tournament would be a great decision to make. There are two main reasons I think this. The first one is that I believe Draft is just as competitive as every other tier in the tournament and I agree with a lot of what Star said in his post. Secondly, with my personal experience in this tournament I feel like a lot of the lower tier slots just don't really end up with much teamwork at all. This is because trying to give someone genuinely good suggestions or help with prep feels very unrealistic if you aren't familiar with the intricacies of the tier. All of the tiers in this tournament are still awesome and removing any of them to include Draft would be ridiculous, but in this team tournament I don't really think we see a lot of teamwork. Adding Draft to this tournament would be a slot that literally anyone can contribute to and it is a slot that helps encourage teamwork if anything. Any SCL player can see a certain set of mons vs another set of mons and be able to come up with things to put them in an advantageous position.
The comments about Draft being "tiebreak hell" or anything even close to that are also incredibly hilarious. Sometimes your draft actually does have bad matchups but if your draft is "naturally countered" by another teams draft you just did a terrible job drafting. Any well made draft has viable outs even into the worst matchups possible, and the specific prep nature that Draft promotes make it so more often than not, theres almost always some approach you can take to win a game.
Arguments saying that the tournament is good and doesn't need any change are fine and I can't really argue against them seeing as I am very much a fan of this tournament. However, I think the much better approach to it is "does this make the tournament better?" Of course anyones answer to that question is subjective, but I think it better addresses the thread as the overall conversation should be if SCL is better with or without Draft and think it would lead to a more productive conversation. Obviously I think the tour would be better with Draft as it encourages the team to work together more, and I think it is just as if not more competitive than all of the tiers currently in the tournament.
The easiest way to make Draft work in this tournament is 4 OU slots. SPL has done that and it works out well for them because it gives oppurtunities to tons of talented players who would not get the oppurtunity to play otherwise. I also would support something like 2 slots of UU as they have a very competitive playerbase and are a very competitive tier.
