Not nitpicking, but generally curious: what good metagames do you find have an actual rock-paper-scissors nature?
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OU DPP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Excal
- Start date
Not nitpicking, but generally curious: what good metagames do you find have an actual rock-paper-scissors nature?
Baton Pass is a broken move, so it should stay banned.
Drypass isn't broken, but Excal's excellent post earlier summed up the issue here where, for some reason, there are always these efforts worthy of the mental gymnastics meme to preserve "legitimate" applications of the move. Remember the ADV Mr. Mime ban? We don't do this with other broken elements, nor should we. "Unban a move but disallow its core function" is exactly the sort of complex ban that shouldn't exist. When we tested Salamence back in the day, we didn't apply these bizarre BP arguments to it like, "well, Salamence wasn't considered broken until Platinum, so isn't Outrage really the issue here?" Just keep the move banned -- the whole move. The fact that dry pass, the limpest in-battle application of BP possible, is still good/useful enough that players want to make an exception for it speaks to how obviously broken the move is, and unbanning it so that players get a free momentum button to tack onto their Zapdos or whatever is a terrible reason to make an exception. I have no doubt drypass isn't problematic, but one of the trade-offs we make with tiering is that legitimate, non-broken applications of broken Pokemon (or moves, or abilities, or whatever it may be) will be disallowed in the name of keeping a clean and coherent ruleset.
I cannot comment on the policy review thread so I will just leave my thoughts here:
I think while I do agree that Snow Cloak hail is degenerate along with parafusion there is a sizable niche in DPP OU that use Frosslass as a spikes lead for certain teams as its speed tier is great and its move set allows you to do some considerable damage to other leads. While I do not use Frosslass myself and I find it to be like, not even in my top 5 DPP leads I can see why some would defend Frosslass and want to use it. Which brings up the conundrum of either neither side will be happy with the result and we either remove a mon to the metagame that has an "honest" use, or we keep a degenerate stategy which will be probably campaigned to be banned against in a year or so. I think it is times like these where we should just try to do a "complex" ban. Banning Snow Cloak and Hail on the same team
While "complex bans" are usually looked down upon due to history and how it can make a metagame frustrating this ruling is pretty simple and is done in BW; and which while I do not think we should completely adapt everything BW OU does, we have having discussions for a complex baton pass ruling so there is no reason to not have this on the table.
Complex bans are in my opinion; are fair when there is a often used "honest" way to use something but also a degenerate method. We already have a "complex" ban on snow cloak as well where if you have another ability you cannot use snow cloak, so what is there to lose to just change that already "complex" ban to hail + snow cloak.
Could the same be done for the already banned sand veil as well? I do not think so as there is a great chance your opponent will be using a sand setter, as opposed to hail where Abomasnow is seldom used. Not to mention the snow cloak users can't abuse said hail as the Frosslass Snow Cloak degenerate set is completely different from the normal spikes lead set, causing little overlap. Meanwhile most Sand Veil users are sweepers already so would be able to use it more in more of a degenerate fashion.
I do hope that we have an open mind to the potential of changing the metagame since if Frosslass is banned we do lose the fastest lead spikes setter in OU, one last thing is that some people may say "just use Roserade" but Roserade does not trade as cleanly into typical Lead Azelf sets as Frosslass does. Icy wind + Shadow ball is legitimately a solid combination.
Thank you for listening to my rant and I hope I displayed my thoughts as clear as possible; I am willing to discuss my viewpoints and/or thoughts further if needed.
(Keep in mind these discussion points are purely done to the case if the council decides to ban snow cloak, I hope they can look at alternatives first.)
Addendum: someone else pointed out that unless you're both doing the very unlikely situation of having a lead abomasnow vs lead lass (lead lass being fairly understandable) there probably wont be a time your frosslass is alive at the same time as an abomasnow, I think this is pretty agreeable as well
I think while I do agree that Snow Cloak hail is degenerate along with parafusion there is a sizable niche in DPP OU that use Frosslass as a spikes lead for certain teams as its speed tier is great and its move set allows you to do some considerable damage to other leads. While I do not use Frosslass myself and I find it to be like, not even in my top 5 DPP leads I can see why some would defend Frosslass and want to use it. Which brings up the conundrum of either neither side will be happy with the result and we either remove a mon to the metagame that has an "honest" use, or we keep a degenerate stategy which will be probably campaigned to be banned against in a year or so. I think it is times like these where we should just try to do a "complex" ban. Banning Snow Cloak and Hail on the same team
While "complex bans" are usually looked down upon due to history and how it can make a metagame frustrating this ruling is pretty simple and is done in BW; and which while I do not think we should completely adapt everything BW OU does, we have having discussions for a complex baton pass ruling so there is no reason to not have this on the table.
Complex bans are in my opinion; are fair when there is a often used "honest" way to use something but also a degenerate method. We already have a "complex" ban on snow cloak as well where if you have another ability you cannot use snow cloak, so what is there to lose to just change that already "complex" ban to hail + snow cloak.
Could the same be done for the already banned sand veil as well? I do not think so as there is a great chance your opponent will be using a sand setter, as opposed to hail where Abomasnow is seldom used. Not to mention the snow cloak users can't abuse said hail as the Frosslass Snow Cloak degenerate set is completely different from the normal spikes lead set, causing little overlap. Meanwhile most Sand Veil users are sweepers already so would be able to use it more in more of a degenerate fashion.
I do hope that we have an open mind to the potential of changing the metagame since if Frosslass is banned we do lose the fastest lead spikes setter in OU, one last thing is that some people may say "just use Roserade" but Roserade does not trade as cleanly into typical Lead Azelf sets as Frosslass does. Icy wind + Shadow ball is legitimately a solid combination.
Thank you for listening to my rant and I hope I displayed my thoughts as clear as possible; I am willing to discuss my viewpoints and/or thoughts further if needed.
(Keep in mind these discussion points are purely done to the case if the council decides to ban snow cloak, I hope they can look at alternatives first.)
Addendum: someone else pointed out that unless you're both doing the very unlikely situation of having a lead abomasnow vs lead lass (lead lass being fairly understandable) there probably wont be a time your frosslass is alive at the same time as an abomasnow, I think this is pretty agreeable as well
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It would be fine to nitpick anyway. An example that immediately rises to my mind because I have been quite competitive in it would be RBY with Zapdos-Rhydon/Golem-Exeggutor.
If you are running Zapdos but your opponent is not running a ground-type it could be a LOT of trouble for them. However if they do, your Zapdos is kinda checkmated until it is removed. But if you are NOT running Zapdos, their ground-type is potentially way way WAY less powerful. And then if you are also running Exeggutor, the potency of their ground-type is vastly diminished. Exeggutor's presence (but not only him, I'm just exacerbating the situation for the sake of the argument) then forces Zapdos to run a mixed set with Drill Peck to try and break it, while still having little to no effect on ground-types.
Does that constitute a good example? It may not be the best, but it seems to me like a decent way to show how the presence of some Pokémons forces others to adapt in a healthy way.
So what I'm getting at from your post is that you prefer metagames where different teams have "strong" and "weak" matchups? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a much more pretty reasonable take.
The reason I was so confused about your initial post is bc I immediately thought of Gen 5 OU, which is very much defined by the rock-paper-scissors style between rain, HO, and sand. While modern evolutions in the tier have offered 'outs' to this (e.g. keldeo sands that deal well with HO), they compromise other fundemental aspects of the team.
It's also one of the reasons why I don't find Jirachi to be banworthy. I do think that it is very good, and very frustrating to play against in several situations, but I don't think it generates enough of an advantage to be genuinely broken. Scarf can get trapped by zone, Heatran and bulky waters deal with with most physical sets.
Most importantly, rachi (to me at least) does not get enough out its versatility to genuinely impact the tier in a negative manner. If versatility was what made rachi broken, then it would be logical for it to have an insanely high usage rate (as it should theoretically become 'unoptimal' for teams to not use it). Yet as we've seen, it remains neck-and-neck with Latias and Tar in the top three—see the usage statistics of Jirachee's DPP Invitational.
You're right with your first sentence - with the possibility of having tech to overcome your innate weaknesses, which can also be potentially countered by your opponent at the price of making themselves weaker in other match-ups, if that makes sense? Compromises, compromises.
The problem I have with your argument of scarfrachi being taken out by Zone (trapping) is that it involves knowing beforehand what the jira set is (improbable without team preview and early in the game), so if you misjudge because of a lack of information and it ends up being either a mixed set or a special rachi with HP Ground or even a Fire Punch rachi, your zone/bulkywater might get bonked while you tech'd it in to trap. Uno Reverse Card in a way.
Again for bulky waters, if you are tbolt or thunder rachi [whose efficiency gets skyrocketed by Serene Grace, the real issue imo] your "counter" or check could as well just be checkmated right off the bat.
My point is that the versatility and haxx-inducing power of Jirachi in DPP is over the top and unfair in a way, because if you make a mistake in your expectation of the set you are facing - which you would have a better guess on if you knew the rest of the team beforehand - you are losing or impeding a whole 1/6th of your team BEFORE you can get into mindgames and trying to deal with it accordingly.
Now the thing is that I am also advocating for a re-evaluation of Latias, which I also think is unhealthy for the DPP metagame, so it's a conjoined issue.
Tyranitar on the other hand is a strong but easily "rock-paper-scissor'd" Pokémon and I have no issue with it - it is powerful and versatile but never unfair.
I have insufficient privileges to reply on the policy review thread too, so I'll leave my reply here:
Personally, I am against an immediate ban on snow cloak, since I think that this sort of tactic needs time for players to develop a strategy against it. It may not require major changes to teams, just a change in playstyle.
We are seeing people develop an understanding of how strong a position getting a froslass in on hail behind a substitute is, and are also seeing improved plays against it, such as avoiding already risky moves as a first answer. As players learn how to respect froslass in a battle, the number of mistakes made against it will probably go down, and it may have less of an impact.
I’m happy to wait it out while the situation develops. If it is still a major problem after enough time has passed, then we can ban it.
Personally, I am against an immediate ban on snow cloak, since I think that this sort of tactic needs time for players to develop a strategy against it. It may not require major changes to teams, just a change in playstyle.
We are seeing people develop an understanding of how strong a position getting a froslass in on hail behind a substitute is, and are also seeing improved plays against it, such as avoiding already risky moves as a first answer. As players learn how to respect froslass in a battle, the number of mistakes made against it will probably go down, and it may have less of an impact.
I’m happy to wait it out while the situation develops. If it is still a major problem after enough time has passed, then we can ban it.
I'd like to comment on some of the new replays that Excal has posted:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2009316764-zgqam7pqoq7d68jkg6t2e8b8ajhatmipw
In this replay, it is mentioned that it’s low ladder, but despite the disclaimer, I am not convinced that the point has been illustrated by this replay.
Froslass wasn’t able to get in until two of Shing's pokemon had gone down without damaging any of the opponents, which was a big commitment. If the opponent had a real team instead a joke one, then they probably could have capitalised on this positioning. Additionally, the reason lass was able to get in behind a sub was because the opponent used hyper beam. I just don’t think this replay was a good example of what lass will do in a real game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2009356598?p2
This replay I think illustrates the point better than the others. It’s not expected that a froslass would clean up against a meta jira swampert and latias. I think it can be argued that Shing positioned froslass as well as they could given the circumstances by getting it in w/o rocks, and draining the PP on metagrosses Eq beforehand; however it’s still not a position where the opponents 4 remaining pokemon (2 of which are resists) would normally be expected to go down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2008786830-bg30fke370lpz5kjrzfih7exlnx1al6pw
I’ve already addressed this particular replay in the DPP discord. I think lass was given too many opportunities to stay healthy in this game where it could have been finished off. 16bit and Excal have already responded to my questions about it, which I will put in the spoiler bellow if they give me permission to quote them here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2009408351-fiur9jtlkbs0j0ivik7uyoxzngu77nzpw
I’m glad sub ray twave spikes finally got mentioned, I’ve seen this set a lot on the low ladder and was waiting for people on the high to learn about it too. I wont comment on the structure of MakeItHappen’s team since I know some people believe umbreon has a real niche, but at the same time I don’t fully believe in the team MakeItHappen brought (this might just be inexperience with using umbreon).
I like this replay in particular since it shows how lass behaves in a longer game. Personally I don’t have a problem with a large number of turns averaging out the RNG elements froslass brings to make it semi reliable. However if I understand Excal's point correctly; one of the things they are trying to show is that snow cloak lass, which goes against the spirit of the evasion clause, can be used in a reliable way. Which it seems to be doing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2009316764-zgqam7pqoq7d68jkg6t2e8b8ajhatmipw
In this replay, it is mentioned that it’s low ladder, but despite the disclaimer, I am not convinced that the point has been illustrated by this replay.
Froslass wasn’t able to get in until two of Shing's pokemon had gone down without damaging any of the opponents, which was a big commitment. If the opponent had a real team instead a joke one, then they probably could have capitalised on this positioning. Additionally, the reason lass was able to get in behind a sub was because the opponent used hyper beam. I just don’t think this replay was a good example of what lass will do in a real game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2009356598?p2
This replay I think illustrates the point better than the others. It’s not expected that a froslass would clean up against a meta jira swampert and latias. I think it can be argued that Shing positioned froslass as well as they could given the circumstances by getting it in w/o rocks, and draining the PP on metagrosses Eq beforehand; however it’s still not a position where the opponents 4 remaining pokemon (2 of which are resists) would normally be expected to go down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2008786830-bg30fke370lpz5kjrzfih7exlnx1al6pw
I’ve already addressed this particular replay in the DPP discord. I think lass was given too many opportunities to stay healthy in this game where it could have been finished off. 16bit and Excal have already responded to my questions about it, which I will put in the spoiler bellow if they give me permission to quote them here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2009408351-fiur9jtlkbs0j0ivik7uyoxzngu77nzpw
I’m glad sub ray twave spikes finally got mentioned, I’ve seen this set a lot on the low ladder and was waiting for people on the high to learn about it too. I wont comment on the structure of MakeItHappen’s team since I know some people believe umbreon has a real niche, but at the same time I don’t fully believe in the team MakeItHappen brought (this might just be inexperience with using umbreon).
I like this replay in particular since it shows how lass behaves in a longer game. Personally I don’t have a problem with a large number of turns averaging out the RNG elements froslass brings to make it semi reliable. However if I understand Excal's point correctly; one of the things they are trying to show is that snow cloak lass, which goes against the spirit of the evasion clause, can be used in a reliable way. Which it seems to be doing.
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Pretty much seconding Gray's and Goat's posts, banning Snow Cloak (and by extension Froslass) right now seems like an unnecessary kneejerk reaction to something we've seen only a couple of replays of at a high level, none of which actually show Snow Cloak "working as intended". If Excal's replays show anything, it shows how BS Paraspam is under Hail, and a complex ban of Hail + Paralysis + Confusion is never happening.
Like the whole Jirachi debate, I feel there is unnecessary collateral damage no matter what action (or lack thereof) is taken, although obviously Jirachi is a far more omnipresent mon than Froslass so there's comparatively a lot less at stake here in this debate. Both mons can be used in "fair" ways, and both can be used to cheese.
Let's give it a little bit to see what other people can not only develop with this strategy (ie how far this can actually go), but also counterplay to this strategy (ie how restrictive this is on teambuilding). I'll believe it when I see it, and I don't see it right now.
Like the whole Jirachi debate, I feel there is unnecessary collateral damage no matter what action (or lack thereof) is taken, although obviously Jirachi is a far more omnipresent mon than Froslass so there's comparatively a lot less at stake here in this debate. Both mons can be used in "fair" ways, and both can be used to cheese.
Let's give it a little bit to see what other people can not only develop with this strategy (ie how far this can actually go), but also counterplay to this strategy (ie how restrictive this is on teambuilding). I'll believe it when I see it, and I don't see it right now.
For those who only read the DPP forms, and not policy review, sub passing just got unbanned.
For a brief period of time, Glaceon will be useable at its full power before it is inevitably banned for being too powerful.
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Jokes aside, what sort of strategies are people considering to try with the newly enabled sub pass?
For a brief period of time, Glaceon will be useable at its full power before it is inevitably banned for being too powerful.
---
Jokes aside, what sort of strategies are people considering to try with the newly enabled sub pass?
The recent survey supported no tiering action on Jirachi but it’s possible they explore Clefable sooner!
out of context this line is fucking gold lmao
The one I've toyed around with in my head for like ever is SubPass Vappy + DDNite, guarantee a mon that appreciates (and can struggle to find) free turns to really up the power. Something along the lines of...
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Def / 132 SpA / 48 SpD / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Wish
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Dragonite @ Yache Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
16 HP EVs guarantee 101HP Subs that can be passed to Nite, 60 Speed EVs outpaces most Skarm and PursuitTar, 252 Defense EVs + Bold Nature allow it to stomach physical hits as best as it can. 132 Special Attack EVs allow its surf to 2HKO standard PhysDef Skarm without hazards, and the rest are pumped into Special Defense. Everything after the Defense EVs though you could prolly mix and match wherever needed. Dragonite is pretty standard, the Vaporeon is hardstopped by other waters so Yache allows it to switch in a little easier. Spin support seems mandatory, Donphan seems like the best option from a defensive synergy standpoint. Happy to see this decision go through.
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I possess insufficient privileges to reply to the proposal thread: Allow players to vote on BO3 vs BO1 in Team tours. However I have worked on mathematical model of the best of three situation over weekends since July, and I’ve put the results together in the form of a poster. I believe that making this poster accessible on the Smogon forums will aid the discussion about BO3.
Many thanks to the people who proof read, and suggested edits to this poster to make it as clear as it can be.
Feel free to ask me any questions about the poster here or in the DPP discord.
I've also attached PDF versions of the poster to this post.
Many thanks to the people who proof read, and suggested edits to this poster to make it as clear as it can be.
Feel free to ask me any questions about the poster here or in the DPP discord.
I've also attached PDF versions of the poster to this post.
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I want to see Hail teams succeed:
Here is a Pokepaste of my Hail team
Please give me advice on what I can do to make this a better hail team, I've been experimenting a lot.
Reply with more hail teams and suggestions
Here is a Pokepaste of my Hail team
Please give me advice on what I can do to make this a better hail team, I've been experimenting a lot.
Reply with more hail teams and suggestions
Well Froslass is gone, so eesh. Replace Umbreon with Clefable imo. Also you are missing 4 EVs on azelf. I'd probably run Trick on Jirachi rather than healing wish. You already have latias as a support.
I miss using froslass on my scarf porygon-Z team to set up spikes and destiny bond while still having an offensive presence. Now I might have to use qwilfish like they did when froslass was banned from UU.
While I fully agree that Snow Cloak plus permanent hail is anticompetive the idea that Froslass should have to pay for Abomasnow's sins is unfair. Abomasnow should be banned to Ubers and Snow Cloak should be unbanned OR Weather + Evasion ability clause should happen with Snow Cloak and Sand Veil being unbanned.
It’s important to establish that before the ban, Froslass was a viable Pokemon without permanent Hail.
A look at tournaments
In SPL XIV Froslass was used twice while Abomasnow was never used. In both games Froslass was used as a lead.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-681613
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-674539?p2
In SPL XIII Froslass was used once (also as a lead) while Abomasnow was never used.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-602433
From SPL X to XII neither Froslass or Abomasnow where used
While Froslass is not a common pick it is shown to have a viable niche that is used for completely fair purposes. While Abomasnow is not a Pokemon that is used at all (or VERY rarely) in competitive play.
What makes Froslass unique
Froslass is the only Pokemon in DPP OU with the following traits
Froslass is also one of only two spikers with Thunder Wave the other being Qwilfish
These unique traits are important because the following
3. Confuse ray is valuable on a hyper offense lead because it allows the Pokemon that switches in, to maybe get a free turn to set up. While Confuse Ray is not very common on lead Froslass it does provide a small niche.
4. In one of the SPL games Froslass used Trick to lock the opposing Azelf into using Taunt. Trick is very useful for catching the opponent off guard.
5. Thunder wave is also quite valuable because it allows Froslass to cripple certain pokemon. Thunder Wave is always a great utility move.
| # | Pokémon | Used | Speed Outcome |
|-----|------------------------|-------|------------------|
| 1 | Azelf | 16 | Slower |
| 2 | Hippowdon | 7 | Faster |
| 3 | Skarmory | 6 | Faster |
| 4 | Zapdos | 6 | Faster |
| 5 | Heatran | 5 | Faster |
| 6 | Empoleon | 4 | Faster |
| 7 | Latias | 4 | Tie |
| 8 | Machamp | 4 | Faster |
| 9 | Dragonite | 4 | Faster |
| 10 | Breloom | 3 | Faster |
| 11 | Tyranitar | 3 | Faster |
| 12 | Aerodactyl | 3 | Slower |
| 13 | Flygon | 3 | Faster |
| 14 | Suicune | 2 | Faster |
| 15 | Metagross | 2 | Faster |
| 16 | Gyarados | 2 | Faster |
| 17 | Gliscor | 2 | Faster |
| 18 | Rotom-Frost | 2 | Faster |
| 19 | Froslass | 2 | Tie |
| 20 | Bronzong | 1 | Faster |
| 21 | Roserade | 1 | Faster |
| 22 | Jirachi | 1 | Faster |
| 23 | Hitmonlee | 1 | Faster |
| 24 | Crobat | 1 | Slower |
| 25 | Claydol | 1 | Faster |
| 26 | Starmie | 1 | Slower |
| 27 | Staraptor | 1 | Faster |
| 28 | Forretress | 1 | Faster |
| 29 | Swampert | 1 | Faster |
| 30 | Smeargle | 1 | Faster |
| 31 | Qwilfish | 1 | Faster |
| 32 | Rotom-Wash | 1 | Faster |
| 33 | Cloyster | 1 | Faster |
A complex ban should be considered
While complex bans are seen as something that should be avoided, which I agree with. The type of complex ban that would be required to enable Froslass is similar to the complex ban in BW OU. To quote the rule.
“Weather + Speed Ability Clause - Teams are not permitted to include Pokémon with the abilities Drought and Drizzle with Pokémon with the abilities Chlorophyll and Swift Swim. They may enter a battle with one or the other.”
Applying this same logic to DPP OU is very reasonable. Having a Weather + Evasion ability clause would be a very simple already proven method to fix the issue.
Additionally, this type of clause would allow other Pokemon to become unbanned in DPP OU
While none of these pokemon are good it would still make it simpler to understand for new players who might want to add Dugtrio to their team then learn they can’t. If the point of avoiding a complex ban is to help new players than under the status quo we are making it more difficult for new players because they have to learn that Pokemon that show up in the team builder can’t even be used.
The complex ban for Baton Pass already exists under the status quo. To quote the rule
“Baton Pass Clause: Baton Pass is banned in combination with any Move, Item, or Ability that can raise stats and with any Trapping Move.”
Weather + Evasion Ability Clause is less arbitrary than Baton Pass Clause. In OU proper there is not a single Pokemon with Baton Pass and not U-Turn in OU by technicality you have the following with Baton Pass but not U-Turn
Also the Baton Pass clause allows for SubPassing which is extremely arbitrary. The idea that we can have such a ridiculous rule for just allowing SubPassing but saying that the Weather + Evasion Ability Clause is too arbitrary and confusing is so dumb. I did not even know Baton Pass Clause allows for Subpassing until I started writing this and I'm not a new player to DPP OU. The Baton Pass Clause.is most definitely confusing new players much more than a Weather + Evasion Ability Clause would ever.
What I think should happen
I think that Abomasnow and Snover should be banned to Ubers while unbanning Snow Cloak.
I also think that Baton Pass should be banned.
Both of these changes would avoid having any complex bans and would also help out the metagame.
Rest In Peace Sweet Princess may you one day come back
It’s important to establish that before the ban, Froslass was a viable Pokemon without permanent Hail.
A look at tournaments
In SPL XIV Froslass was used twice while Abomasnow was never used. In both games Froslass was used as a lead.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-681613
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-674539?p2
In SPL XIII Froslass was used once (also as a lead) while Abomasnow was never used.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-602433
From SPL X to XII neither Froslass or Abomasnow where used
While Froslass is not a common pick it is shown to have a viable niche that is used for completely fair purposes. While Abomasnow is not a Pokemon that is used at all (or VERY rarely) in competitive play.
What makes Froslass unique
Froslass is the only Pokemon in DPP OU with the following traits
- Spiker with a speed above 90 (Roserade). Froslass has 110 speed
- Spiker that is also a ghost type.
- Spiker that has Confuse Ray
- Spiker that has Trick/Switcheroo
Froslass is also one of only two spikers with Thunder Wave the other being Qwilfish
These unique traits are important because the following
- Having 110 speed allows Froslass to outspeed most other common leads, below are the leads in SPL XIV and whether or not Froslass out speeds them assuming Froslass and the opponent are max speed. As you can see Froslass outspeeds the vast majority of the metagame. Froslass was only slower than 22.33% of leads. And is faster than 71.28% of leads. This speed stat is important because Froslass likes to run Destiny Bond which forces the opponent into a mind game. Will Froslass throw another layer of Spikes or Destiny Bond? The next fastest Destiny Bond Spike user is Qwilfish which is not very fast. Also Froslass is the fastest Spike user with Taunt. Even if you ignore the other traits that make Froslass unique the speed stat alone gives it a valuable niche in the metagame.
- Froslass being a ghost type makes it immune to the following moves all of which are used on leads and that Froslass greatly benefits from being immune to.
- Dynamic Punch
- Mach Punch
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
- Vacuum Wave
3. Confuse ray is valuable on a hyper offense lead because it allows the Pokemon that switches in, to maybe get a free turn to set up. While Confuse Ray is not very common on lead Froslass it does provide a small niche.
4. In one of the SPL games Froslass used Trick to lock the opposing Azelf into using Taunt. Trick is very useful for catching the opponent off guard.
5. Thunder wave is also quite valuable because it allows Froslass to cripple certain pokemon. Thunder Wave is always a great utility move.
| # | Pokémon | Used | Speed Outcome |
|-----|------------------------|-------|------------------|
| 1 | Azelf | 16 | Slower |
| 2 | Hippowdon | 7 | Faster |
| 3 | Skarmory | 6 | Faster |
| 4 | Zapdos | 6 | Faster |
| 5 | Heatran | 5 | Faster |
| 6 | Empoleon | 4 | Faster |
| 7 | Latias | 4 | Tie |
| 8 | Machamp | 4 | Faster |
| 9 | Dragonite | 4 | Faster |
| 10 | Breloom | 3 | Faster |
| 11 | Tyranitar | 3 | Faster |
| 12 | Aerodactyl | 3 | Slower |
| 13 | Flygon | 3 | Faster |
| 14 | Suicune | 2 | Faster |
| 15 | Metagross | 2 | Faster |
| 16 | Gyarados | 2 | Faster |
| 17 | Gliscor | 2 | Faster |
| 18 | Rotom-Frost | 2 | Faster |
| 19 | Froslass | 2 | Tie |
| 20 | Bronzong | 1 | Faster |
| 21 | Roserade | 1 | Faster |
| 22 | Jirachi | 1 | Faster |
| 23 | Hitmonlee | 1 | Faster |
| 24 | Crobat | 1 | Slower |
| 25 | Claydol | 1 | Faster |
| 26 | Starmie | 1 | Slower |
| 27 | Staraptor | 1 | Faster |
| 28 | Forretress | 1 | Faster |
| 29 | Swampert | 1 | Faster |
| 30 | Smeargle | 1 | Faster |
| 31 | Qwilfish | 1 | Faster |
| 32 | Rotom-Wash | 1 | Faster |
| 33 | Cloyster | 1 | Faster |
A complex ban should be considered
While complex bans are seen as something that should be avoided, which I agree with. The type of complex ban that would be required to enable Froslass is similar to the complex ban in BW OU. To quote the rule.
“Weather + Speed Ability Clause - Teams are not permitted to include Pokémon with the abilities Drought and Drizzle with Pokémon with the abilities Chlorophyll and Swift Swim. They may enter a battle with one or the other.”
Applying this same logic to DPP OU is very reasonable. Having a Weather + Evasion ability clause would be a very simple already proven method to fix the issue.
Additionally, this type of clause would allow other Pokemon to become unbanned in DPP OU
- Dugtrio
- Cacturne
- Sandslash
- Glaceon
While none of these pokemon are good it would still make it simpler to understand for new players who might want to add Dugtrio to their team then learn they can’t. If the point of avoiding a complex ban is to help new players than under the status quo we are making it more difficult for new players because they have to learn that Pokemon that show up in the team builder can’t even be used.
The complex ban for Baton Pass already exists under the status quo. To quote the rule
“Baton Pass Clause: Baton Pass is banned in combination with any Move, Item, or Ability that can raise stats and with any Trapping Move.”
Weather + Evasion Ability Clause is less arbitrary than Baton Pass Clause. In OU proper there is not a single Pokemon with Baton Pass and not U-Turn in OU by technicality you have the following with Baton Pass but not U-Turn
- Jolteon
- Togekiss
- Umbreon
- Vaporeon
Also the Baton Pass clause allows for SubPassing which is extremely arbitrary. The idea that we can have such a ridiculous rule for just allowing SubPassing but saying that the Weather + Evasion Ability Clause is too arbitrary and confusing is so dumb. I did not even know Baton Pass Clause allows for Subpassing until I started writing this and I'm not a new player to DPP OU. The Baton Pass Clause.is most definitely confusing new players much more than a Weather + Evasion Ability Clause would ever.
What I think should happen
I think that Abomasnow and Snover should be banned to Ubers while unbanning Snow Cloak.
I also think that Baton Pass should be banned.
Both of these changes would avoid having any complex bans and would also help out the metagame.
Rest In Peace Sweet Princess may you one day come back
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while I agree that a complex ban to keep froslass would be ok, we shouldn't do it while losing abomasnow, even if he saw no play in spl, he's still viable outside of dedicated hail team.
I totally agree with a complex ban of Weather + Evasion ability. Great post Dawn Dreams! 
Free the Yuki Onna
Free the Yuki Onna
Personally, I think the frostlass ban was in error, and we should have waited for the meta/players to develop a bit more before taking action. It didn't seem that common or powerful, and to set it up required a certain amount of skill too.
Even the updated replays don't show people winning by luck alone, they have to play carefully to get into a position where frostlass can win.
Even the updated replays don't show people winning by luck alone, they have to play carefully to get into a position where frostlass can win.
Hail Chads Rise Up
we must spam hail till froslass unban
https://pokepast.es/3c09decd3189e55b
please edit and make your own variations and post them on here as well to spread awareness
DPP OU Forever
~Dralm
we must spam hail till froslass unban
https://pokepast.es/3c09decd3189e55b
please edit and make your own variations and post them on here as well to spread awareness
DPP OU Forever
~Dralm
Today a survey went out to various members of the community, which involves the possibility of changes to DPP.
Last time this happened, a change did eventually take place (baton pass unban). So please use this opportunity to voice any considerations you have regarding the tier, while responses are still being considered.
Last time this happened, a change did eventually take place (baton pass unban). So please use this opportunity to voice any considerations you have regarding the tier, while responses are still being considered.
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