Announcement DPP OU Machamp Suspect Test (Machamp Banned)

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EDIT: Saw the mod post about not being allowed to complain that policy is bullshit and that Jirachi isn't being suspected first. So I cut that out and leave you with these thoughts:

Where exactly is the competitive aspect of a 50% (60% in the case of Jirachi's Iron Head) chance of not being able to act? What is the skill expression being shown when you flip a coin?

I understand the topic is way more nuanced than this, but to what extent are you willing to sacrifice fun for the sake of fairness? Do you think pursuing the epitome of balance is worth forsaking the enjoyment of the game? For crying out loud...

Just ban Machamp, then do something about Jirachi/dumb policies.

EDIT2: Just to reiterate, the actual problems are the combination of Dynamic Punch + No Guard on Machamp specifically, and Jirachi being able to use Iron Head. Machamp itself is not the problem, but alas, should still be banned.
 
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Do NOT ban Machamp.
 
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I aint much of a Gen 4 OU guy, but to me the situation is kind of like this:

You know how when you are fighting those Team Rocket Golbats with your Graveler or whatever, where you have a clear advantage, but then it confuses you and you watch frustratingly as you smack yourself every turn until you either faint, switch, or nearly faint?

Machamp has a similar interaction, but it takes it to the extreme as its confusion move is a 100 Base Power STAB move off of 130 Attack. Against Confuse Ray, you could just switch around since it deals no direct damage. Not against Machamp, however. And whatever comes in has to roll the dice to see if it will actually achieve anything at all. As such, your answer to Machamp Dynamic Punch either has to be immune to it, or it has to be able to handle both the actual strength of the attack AND the Confusion effect. This extensive list of the latter includes Slowbro, Slowking, Physically Defensive Grumpig (Who is this), Galarian Slow.... wait a minute, what do you mean Gen 8 didn't exist yet?! Well, I guess its just those first two then, huh?

No conventional Fighting answer other than Slowbro (or Slowking if you wanna double up or just like using Slowking) is truly safe against you. Even if they take not so much damage from your attack, they are immediately subjected into a 50-50 that may cause them to lose anyways, which can encourage reckless and unhealthy plays by the Machamp user that removes skill from the equation. Whether the confused Pokemon actually ever even hits itself in confusion in any given battle is entirely irrelevant. If it does, especially if multiple times in a row, you are giving free turns and chip damage to a Pokemon that you supposedly check to do whatever it wants. Whether it be KOing you directly with a coverage move, using Substitute, switching out to a dangerous sweeper or to a check, or even using something silly.

Machamp isnt banworthy in the sense that it KOs everything on sight. It is banworthy because the person fighting it can make all the right plays against Machamp and still lose to it or its team regardless, because doing so requires you to enter into a coin flip that is entirely out of your ability to control, but is within their ability to exploit.
 
I haven’t played DPP in more than a decade. That said, I am a Gen 4 originalist (it was ahen I started playing mons online) and played the entire Gen. it’s good to see this being looked at. While I hesitate to remember Machamp as “broken,” it was rather onerous to play against. I remember counterplay being a combination of RestTalk Rotom-A (with Reflect + toxic Spikes, or Burn without Tspikes) + a strong RK. This is obviously easier said than done. Most of the time I had to resort to using Rest Suicune to burn through DynamicPunch’s PP. This strategy obviously doesn’t work if the team is more offensively oriented, or if it’s a full stall team. Machamp was way more of a pain the ass than Jirachi though.
 
DNB. I believe Ddance Outrage Dnite should be able to counter it. Or check it. Especially if it's a Lum variant. And CB variants will OHKO Champ as they already outspeed.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 397-468 (123.6 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 397-468 (112.4 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I will say that Champ isn't banworthy. But I will say that it is very annoying however. Especially if you pair it with Rachi.
 
tbh i dont see Machamp being banworthy... most people think that Machamp is the problem when its Jirachi thats the issue just as VarelaSensei said above and body slam + iron head is unhealthy imo banning Machamp wont resolve anything but banning Jirachi will Machamp abuses Para+Confusion without jirachi its nothing
right... because machamp is only enabled by rachi which is false, sure jirachi helps but i can also enable it with t wave azelf, t wave clef, t wave mie, discharge zapdos, t wave rotom-w, latias, magnezone, ttar...

Sure i dont have to make a post about it but i feel saying how rachi is the sole reason why machamp is annoying and how we get rid of rachi and we clap our hands and say "crisis averted" seems to be stupid. All of a sudden we just deal with para fusion

Removing rachi isnt like smth that solves para spam and makes it obsolete

DNB. I believe Ddance Outrage Dnite should be able to counter it. Or check it. Especially if it's a Lum variant. And CB variants will OHKO Champ as they already outspeed.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 397-468 (123.6 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 397-468 (112.4 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

... With rocks, sand and confusion chance? You just have a chance of straight up losing... and also im likely switching out while you may just hit your head and take 20-30% from confusion

Lum dnite really doesnt wanna switch in and even bulkier varints do not want to switch in and click roost as I am easily exploiting that turn to do something else
 
Why do people who are against it justify it by making random calculations? When Machamp's greatest potential is to abuse luck / DPunch /sub + Paraspam combination. And this is something that requires no skill, as it relies on luck. Granted, it may be a totally viable strategy, but it's annoying as hell.
 
Besides, there's better alternatives for Paraspamming teams that can fill Machamp's spot.

Choice Swamp/Physical Swamp is pretty good thanks to Water/Ground being a solid type, Mamoswine is pretty good if you want a Dragonite check & Knock off Shed Shell Skarm, Rhyperior offers solid breaking potential.

I agree with plenty of people voicing their frustration on DPP with Champ, Confusion acts as a double status that wears off if you switch out, which in dire situations you don't want as that sacrifices momentum.
 
With rocks, sand and confusion chance? You just have a chance of straight up losing... and also im likely switching out while you may just hit your head and take 20-30% from confusion

Lum dnite really doesnt wanna switch in and even bulkier varints do not want to switch in and click roost as I am easily exploiting that turn to do something else
My bad I meant to say it was a check. Sorry about the miscommunication on my part.
 
I don't want to waste my time or energy writing essays about the 20 year old children's RNG game but I'm bored at the gym doing cardio and all caught up on football so here we are. I won't proofread so I apologize for the inevitable lack of articulation.

Let me start by saying that not a single one of you knows what the word "uncompetitive" means, or could actually define it. Is it "uncompetitive" for me to use a team of 6 NFEs? It certainly wouldn't be much of a competition... Is it "uncompetitive" for me, a good player, to load up a tryhard stall team and farm noobs at the bottom of the ladder? Is it "uncompetitive" when 30% of the time you use Gengar it just misses and dies? If you answered "I don't fucking know" to any of these questions then at least you have more self awareness than the cabal trying to ban Machamp, because none of them, or you, or me, have any idea what "uncompetitive" actually is; it's become a meaningless buzzword. And since you forum addicts are incapable of articulating why you actually want Machamp banned, allow me, a forum jeezy to do so for you. It's not because it's "uncompetitive," because that doesn't mean anything, it's simply because you don't like playing against it - and that's fine. If you want to use your influence in the community to get something banned because you got haxed by it on the ladder a couple times, that's okay and I really don't care, but just be honest and call a spade a spade. You guys are like my students when they don't do their homework and rather than just be honest and say "I didn't feel like it lol," they give me some 20 minute monologue about how their uncle's cousin's best friend's dog ate their pen and they couldn't do it. Like c'mon now guys just be honest.

The fact of the matter is Machamp is far too inherently flawed of a pokemon, with too much consistent available counterplay to ever be considered "uncompetitive" or "broken" or "overpowered" or whatever. And no, I'm not gonna sit here and say "just use Slowbro lol" because that mon is dix. What I will point out is that Machamp has 0 longevity or staying power of any kind. It's weak to sand, spikes, tspikes, gets ruined by any forum of status, and has no way to heal. So even if you're using a team more reliant on passive damage, as long as you know how to play it, Machamp's opportunities will be limited. But tbh it's more simple than that, because Machamp is also slow, relatively frail, and has few resistances, so as long as you're positioning decently it won't be coming in more than 2-3 times at most. Notice how not once during this little counterplay section did I mention confusion or Lum berry or anything like that, because if you play it right and limit Machamp's opportunities it will barely even have the chance to confuse anything. Even then if you are playing/building badly and letting it hit the field over and over, Dpunch only has 8 pp. The best defense is a good offense - rather than trying to stop Machamp after you let 6 things get parad and let it get up a free sub because your positioning sucks, instead focus on playing offensively in order to prevent that from happening in the first place.

Oh and that brings me to the whole paraspam argument. First I'll say that paraspam is not even a good or consistent style. I win vs it every time because my teams are prepped for it. Ffs man Machamp was only used like 6 times or some shit during the entire SPL season. Surely the threshold for banning shit from a 20 year old, stable, established, well liked metagame should be a bit higher than "six people used it in spl and sometimes it haxes you if you play/build badly lol." But anyways, back to paraspam. It blows my mind that you don't see Machamp for what it actually is - a symptom of the larger paraspam problem rather than a root cause. Do you really think paraspam will get any weaker or less prevalent when you ban Machamp? You're in for a rude awakening when people simply start using Togekiss, who is a far more obnoxious para abuser in the first place, or Machoke, or other para abusers like sub protect Loom/sub roost Zapdos that can infinitely fish for subs, or random shit with confuse ray. This is the equivalent of being fat and rather than looking at the overall factors surrounding your diet and lifestyle, simply swapping the can of Pringles in the cupboard for a carrot and expecting the problem to go away. If you really hate paraspam that much we all know what actually needs to be done, but I won't say it bc apparently it's like Voldemort and if you say the funny J word your post gets deleted by dementors or Slitherin or some shit idk. Or alternatively you can just get over it and run Lum berry, Rotom, Nidoqueen, Celebi, or any of the 293848602 other things that dunk on paraspam but I guess you don't wanna do that so w/e, fair enough I guess.

I'm starting to think that you guys don't even like this tier with how often you're trying to ban shit from it for no reason other than Bored Mainer Syndrome. The fact of the matter is the games where Machamp haxes through everything are few and far between, they're statistical impropabilities that only happened in the first place because you messed up at some point in the game or builder. Machamp's RNG is no different to anything else in this game, certainly not You Know Who. Competitive pokemon always has been, and will always be, a fundamentally horrendous and deeply unserious game. So if you really hate RNG in the children's game so much don't try to ban shit, just accept it, or better yet go play a different game that's more suited to your tastes. I'll say if again, TF2 is the best game ever made, it's free, and I'll legit be your dedicated pocket Medic so long as you agree to stop with these dumb threads, that's a serious offer. Like I said, this meta is old, stable, balanced, well liked, all playstyles are viable, so I think in order to ban something from it there should be a bit more justification and a bit more of a pressing issue than a few forum addicts forgot to run Nidoqueen and then took a survey. Go read the comments on Joey's video about this and you'll see what 99% of people outside your bubble actually think of this clown show.

But at the end of the day who really gives a fuck. This is completely irrelevant to our real lives, life will go on either way so it is what it is. The fact that we play this game means we have far more in common than we do that's different regardless of how we might feel about the funny Dpunch button. So it's all love, have a good day and thanks for reading.
 
Oh, boy. I was wondering when we’d get around to suspecting this thing. Even as a much more casual player I can recognize Machamp’s issues in the tier enough to want to post about it. Ignoring the ParaSpam/ParaFusion debate and just looking at Machamp individually (which last I checked, is the whole point of this suspect test in the first place), Machamp’s impact on the teambuilder is, at least in my opinion, overall negative for both casual and competitive players. Machamp really feels like one of those Pokémon that’s really fun to use yourself but you hate being on the receiving end of it. In the lead slot specifically it just feels perfectly set up to take advantage of most hazard leads and force Lum Berries on so many matchups. Lead Machamp admittedly isn’t the force now that it was at its peak, but the fact its been around for so long and we’ve gotten used to seeing it doesn’t change much when the combination of DynamicPunch, Bullet Punch’s priority, and Gen 4’s iteration of Payback has this much value. Outside of the lead slot, things aren’t much better, and from my experience that’s where you start to see more of Machamp’s lesser seen options. Machamp’s underrated versatility is its greatest weapon mid-game since you have to build around the possibilities of these potential variants in such a way that worsens your team against the rest of the metagame. As a more casual player, I can admit I don’t know what exactly Machamp players are opting to run right now, but saying that it or ParaSpam isn’t “very good” is avoiding the issue that the metagame is less accessible moreso than it is less “fun” or “strategic”. All my inexperienced self knows is that Machamp hits hard, is deceptively versatile, and disincentivizes (yes, that’s actually a word) practice and skill at the lower and higher levels of the game.

Think of it this way. The main goals for any tier are for players to be able to practice, grow, and advance the metagame, right? If the people with voting eligibility keep Machamp in the tier, what exactly does that add for newer players looking to improve at the game? This is less of a situation that Machamp is a “broken” Pokémon, and more of a situation where a bad precedent is being set should Machamp not be banned here. At least to me, if the minority of players who are really good at the game elect to keep Machamp around, they would be doing so in a way that makes the game less accessible to newer and/or less experienced players. Is that really the message the community wants to send when other posts here have already elaborated in great detail about what Machamp is capable of?
 
right... because machamp is only enabled by rachi which is false, sure jirachi helps but i can also enable it with t wave azelf, t wave clef, t wave mie, discharge zapdos, t wave rotom-w, latias, magnezone, ttar...

Sure i dont have to make a post about it but i feel saying how rachi is the sole reason why machamp is annoying and how we get rid of rachi and we clap our hands and say "crisis averted" seems to be stupid. All of a sudden we just deal with para fusion

Removing rachi isnt like smth that solves para spam and makes it obsolete



... With rocks, sand and confusion chance? You just have a chance of straight up losing... and also im likely switching out while you may just hit your head and take 20-30% from confusion

Lum dnite really doesnt wanna switch in and even bulkier varints do not want to switch in and click roost as I am easily exploiting that turn to do something else
are you saying banning Machamp will solve any problem? before every suspect we should be thinking will banning this pokemon be better for the meta rather than maybe a bit more complex jirachi ban i am not saying that you are wrong about other twave users but jirachi is by far the best enabler to Machamp its not crisis averted but it make the meta more stable thats all
 
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Let me start by saying that not a single one of you knows what the word "uncompetitive" means, or could actually define it. Is it "uncompetitive" for me to use a team of 6 NFEs? It certainly wouldn't be much of a competition... Is it "uncompetitive" for me, a good player, to load up a tryhard stall team and farm noobs at the bottom of the ladder? Is it "uncompetitive" when 30% of the time you use Gengar it just misses and dies? If you answered "I don't fucking know" to any of these questions then at least you have more self awareness than the cabal trying to ban Machamp, because none of them, or you, or me, have any idea what "uncompetitive" actually is; it's become a meaningless buzzword. And since you forum addicts are incapable of articulating why you actually want Machamp banned, allow me, a forum jeezy to do so for you. It's not because it's "uncompetitive," because that doesn't mean anything, it's simply because you don't like playing against it - and that's fine.
Uncompetitive isn't a meaningless buzzword nor is it not defined. In fact, it's defined very clearly in our tiering policy framework as "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant". Whether you think Machamp is uncompetitive or not is up to you, but the majority of survey respondents made it very clear that they find Machamp uncompetitive. It's a reasonable position to hold that Dynamic Punch, with our lack of viable Ghost-types (only two get smashed by Payback and can't revenge kill healthy Machamp) is very difficult to pivot around; and stacking significant damage + 100% confusion often forces players to rely on a 50/50 to try to get damage on Machamp or die to its perfect coverage/let it get a free Substitute. Skill is rarely expressed in these interactions and the majority of outcomes in high level play rely on rolling the dice with confusion, from my experience.

What I will point out is that Machamp has 0 longevity or staying power of any kind. It's weak to sand, spikes, tspikes, gets ruined by any forum of status, and has no way to heal. So even if you're using a team more reliant on passive damage, as long as you know how to play it, Machamp's opportunities will be limited. But tbh it's more simple than that, because Machamp is also slow, relatively frail, and has few resistances, so as long as you're positioning decently it won't be coming in more than 2-3 times at most.
Machamp not only has staying power but it's also certainly not frail. Of its few resistances, it happens to resist both STABs coming from Tyranitar, the best Pokemon in the metagame, and the one Machamp exploits the most. 90/80/85 bulk is nothing to scoff at. Outside of very strong super effective attacks (uncommon) and choice band/specs attackers (not that common, unreliable due to sand chip etc, locks exploited heavily afterwards), Machamp is hard to revenge kill. One of the few ways to do it from full is to use Jirachi's Iron Head to force it out. Machamp is often utilized as an early game breaker before hazards are stacked. Toxic Spikes are relatively uncommon. Machamp almost always uses Leftovers, so it doesn't take passive damage once it's in assuming tspikes aren't up. When it's not using Leftovers, it uses Lum Berry, so it can come in without being poisoned. Good luck trying to knock it. All Machamp needs to do is come in once and gain momentum and with confusion and its strong attacks, it can often take 3 Pokemon down with it before having to even switch out once. If it can come in more than that, then that sounds like a lost battle.

Oh and that brings me to the whole paraspam argument. First I'll say that paraspam is not even a good or consistent style. I win vs it every time because my teams are prepped for it. Ffs man Machamp was only used like 6 times or some shit during the entire SPL season. Surely the threshold for banning shit from a 20 year old, stable, established, well liked metagame should be a bit higher than "six people used it in spl and sometimes it haxes you if you play/build badly lol." But anyways, back to paraspam. It blows my mind that you don't see Machamp for what it actually is - a symptom of the larger paraspam problem rather than a root cause. Do you really think paraspam will get any weaker or less prevalent when you ban Machamp? You're in for a rude awakening when people simply start using Togekiss, who is a far more obnoxious para abuser in the first place, or Machoke, or other para abusers like sub protect Loom/sub roost Zapdos that can infinitely fish for subs, or random shit with confuse ray. This is the equivalent of being fat and rather than looking at the overall factors surrounding your diet and lifestyle, simply swapping the can of Pringles in the cupboard for a carrot and expecting the problem to go away. If you really hate paraspam that much we all know what actually needs to be done, but I won't say it bc apparently it's like Voldemort and if you say the funny J word your post gets deleted by dementors or Slitherin or some shit idk. Or alternatively you can just get over it and run Lum berry, Rotom, Nidoqueen, Celebi, or any of the 293848602 other things that dunk on paraspam but I guess you don't wanna do that so w/e, fair enough I guess.
The DPP community near unanimously considers Paraspam to be the most problematic tier aspect. It's consistent because there are several top Pokemon with paralysis inducing moves (Gyarados, Starmie, Latias, Jirachi, Zapdos, Celebi, Azelf among others). Compared to other generations, Thunder Wave hits Electric types and has 100% accuracy. There's no team preview and high power creep, so paralysis inducers can be harder to plan for early game and when paralysis occurs, it's often more devastating in this tier compared to others. No one seriously thinks that getting rid of Machamp will solve the larger paraspam problem; however, Machamp is the most lethal paralysis abuser we have outside of Jirachi.

Nothing replaces what Machamp does -- the argument is that No Guard + Dynamic Punch is uncompetitive. Accuracy inherently nerfs more powerful moves, giving concessions to running them. No Guard circumvents that and allows for a strategy that, with momentum, inflicts huge damage and confusion with 100% accuracy.

If it were as easy as using Lum Berry, Nidoqueen, Celebi, etc, then no one would be complaining about paraspam and the tier would be perfect. That's not the reality we're living in. Nidoqueen, which you've seemed to harp on a lot, was used just as much as Machamp last SPL. It's a good Pokemon, but not that common and has a lot of deficits to compensate for (deadweight vs stall, lack of longevity, spikes weak, overwhelmed by offense). Celebi is a pretty terrible Machamp check when it rarely runs Psychic, has to break through Dynamic Punch confusion, and has to sustain 100 BP Paybacks. It's often needed for Breloom on teams it's featured on, which is a common Machamp partner.

I'm starting to think that you guys don't even like this tier with how often you're trying to ban shit from it for no reason other than Bored Mainer Syndrome. The fact of the matter is the games where Machamp haxes through everything are few and far between, they're statistical impropabilities that only happened in the first place because you messed up at some point in the game or builder. Machamp's RNG is no different to anything else in this game, certainly not You Know Who. Competitive pokemon always has been, and will always be, a fundamentally horrendous and deeply unserious game. So if you really hate RNG in the children's game so much don't try to ban shit, just accept it, or better yet go play a different game that's more suited to your tastes. I'll say if again, TF2 is the best game ever made, it's free, and I'll legit be your dedicated pocket Medic so long as you agree to stop with these dumb threads, that's a serious offer. Like I said, this meta is old, stable, balanced, well liked, all playstyles are viable, so I think in order to ban something from it there should be a bit more justification and a bit more of a pressing issue than a few forum addicts forgot to run Nidoqueen and then took a survey. Go read the comments on Joey's video about this and you'll see what 99% of people outside your bubble actually think of this clown show.
The survey results suggested that the playerbase likes DPP quite a bit actually, enough to accept Jirachi despite its problematic elements. Banning Jirachi would be a decision that flips the metagame on its head; Machamp leaving the tier would not change the metagame very much. At the end of the day, this comes down to how you view suspects and banning Pokemon. I can't take it away from someone who only wants to ban Pokemon that they find broken despite negative attributes associated with rng taking the game away from the player's hands. I personally view it as an antiquated way to look at tiering, usually lending itself to status quo adherence at the expense of metagame implications. The way I like to look at suspects is, will this being banned improve the metagame, even marginally? What are the expenses of banning it? I think banning Machamp will improve the metagame with no expenses, and I think it's a step in the right direction for all parties, regardless of how you view Jirachi, Clefable, Latias, etc. to improve the DPP metagame.
 
Oh and that brings me to the whole paraspam argument. First I'll say that paraspam is not even a good or consistent style. I win vs it every time because my teams are prepped for it. Ffs man Machamp was only used like 6 times or some shit during the entire SPL season. Surely the threshold for banning shit from a 20 year old, stable, established, well liked metagame should be a bit higher than "six people used it in spl and sometimes it haxes you if you play/build badly lol." But anyways, back to paraspam. It blows my mind that you don't see Machamp for what it actually is - a symptom of the larger paraspam problem rather than a root cause. Do you really think paraspam will get any weaker or less prevalent when you ban Machamp? You're in for a rude awakening when people simply start using Togekiss, who is a far more obnoxious para abuser in the first place, or Machoke, or other para abusers like sub protect Loom/sub roost Zapdos that can infinitely fish for subs, or random shit with confuse ray. This is the equivalent of being fat and rather than looking at the overall factors surrounding your diet and lifestyle, simply swapping the can of Pringles in the cupboard for a carrot and expecting the problem to go away. If you really hate paraspam that much we all know what actually needs to be done, but I won't say it bc apparently it's like Voldemort and if you say the funny J word your post gets deleted by dementors or Slitherin or some shit idk. Or alternatively you can just get over it and run Lum berry, Rotom, Nidoqueen, Celebi, or any of the 293848602 other things that dunk on paraspam but I guess you don't wanna do that so w/e, fair enough I guess.
Sounds interesting, this was a read indeed. While i agree on some and disagree on others ...

- We will unlikely ever see machoke ever see use, its a pokemon that is much weaker, frailer, lacks stone edge, and is just shit.... 80/70/70 isnt good bulk compared to 90/80/85 where machoke is just gonna be outsped since less speed = needing more sped ev's
- togekiss isnt that good, this mon is C2
- sub roost zapdos is much weaker than machamp and you can def stall it out, play around it, and just in paralysis without outside factors isnt that strong
- sub protect loom is likely very walled by rotom or if its using dual stab then latias, nidoqueen, dragonite, uxie, gyarados, gengar, zapdos, roserade,e tc

The argument that machamp is just gonna be replaced by something equally as threatening is pretty something. Considering flygon is not a good garchomp replacement or how dragonite is not just a salamence

Dynamic punch is just smth that annoys a crap ton of people, Well either way this test is about machamp rather than rachi. Either way.... rotom does not like payback especially if its still choiced and has to take sand alongside it, nidoqueen isnt used much but even then ice punch can break through it or something else can break through it, although this is a pretty good answer although uncommon, celebi is not common either and index of stats suggest celebi run psychic less than 10% of the time and while leaf storm isnt weak it is not applying enough pressure to not lose ur celebi

| 54 | Nidoqueen | 1.09744% | 1742 | 1.313% | 1544 | 1.407% |

| 30 | Celebi | 5.10975% | 5314 | 4.004% | 4476 | 4.078% |

While ladder =/= tour usage, i should still point out that they are also not ranked highly on the dpp ou where nidoqueen is ranked C2 while celebi is ranked C1

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-11/gen4ou-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-11/moveset/gen4ou-1630.txt
 
I would like to start this post by saying that I am retired. I have no intention of getting reqs for this suspect test. I am merely posting here to advise you that I believe that you are making a mistake. Take it or leave it. Finally, you are welcome to think that I am out of touch with the tier, but let's be honest: I have a fundamental understanding of this tier from 15 years of experience that is rivaled by only a handful of people.

Lets start off by talking about some common misconceptions about consistency and the like. I don't think of teams in isolation, and when I analyze what my teams are soft to, I think about these threats in terms of the archetypes that frequently accompany them. My team let's Clefable in too easily? Well, can I create counterplay against bulky Clefable teams? If not, I will probably scrap it. I have always considered that the "perfect" team is one that has 40-60 matchups at worst. It is unrealistic to think that there is a team that has good matchups against every possible team, but there are flexible teams that have play in bad matchups. Some archetypes naturally prey on others: this is important in a healthy metagame. The existence of an "apex predator" team that beats every common archetype and needs to be metagamed or counter teamed to gain an advantage is unhealthy, and there are very few situations in the history of Smogon where anything like this has existed. I have also seen a fair amount of people saying that this game should "consistently reward the better player". And it _already_ does in it's current state. A good matchup that requires you to dodge rng indefinitely is not a good matchup. It is a bad matchup that you can blame on luck when you lose. If you are consistently allowing important Pokemon to be paralyzed when facing paraspam, you are playing into their entire theme and it should be no surprise that you lose. Paraspam is frustrating to lose to, I get it. But gameplanning and minimization of rng elements is one of the most crucial elements of this tier. Many losses to paraspam can't be chalked up purely to RNG.

Paralysis focused teams have existed for the entire lifetime of this team, dating back to "We are the Machampions" and ipl's Paraspam team that won the 7th official tournament. These teams follow a simple gameplan to paralyze other pokemon and use powerful heavy hitters with secondary effects. In this sense they are "maximizing" their positive rng. The goal of stall teams is to set entry hazards and stabilize. The goal of physical offense teams is to use repeated assaults to weaken defensive backbones so that one of your sweepers can eventually get you home. If you simply durdle around and exert no pressure while stall sets up hazards and remains healthy, you will likely lose. If you let physical offense freely set up their sweepers and take massive hits on your pokemon with no plan to stop their secondary assaults, you will likely lose. And, you guessed it: if you sit there and let paraspam paralyze everything without a gameplan and no pressure... you will likely lose!
Just as teams need to be built with solid gameplans to break stall and beat offense, your teams should have a plan against paralysis focused teams.

Machamp is not an overwhelming force in the tier, and you are fooling yourself if you believe that it is. Machamp was used a grand total of 5 times last SPL, and while usage stats aren't everything they are certainly not ancillary. It is nothing more than a "safe" ban because it doesn't offer much defensive utility outside of checking Tyranitar. But these ideas that it will "alleviate restrictions from teambuilding" is bullshit. Paraspam classically has the core of Machamp and Jirachi. Machamp is your heavy lifter in terms of abusing paralysis, but Jirachi is the real culprit. Jirachi is able to muscle it's way through paralyzed Pokemon much more easily than Machamp, and it has a Taunt-immune 60% para attacking move that it can spam due to it's sheer bulk and ability to passively regain HP through leftovers and Iron Head flinches. Jirachi is a hard pokemon to ban, I get it. It provides an immense amount of defensive utility in the tier and is a pillar of nearly every archetype in one way or another. The thought of banning it likely instills fear into many of you, either because of the uncertainty of what the tier will become or the uncertainty of whether you will be able to win without it. To me, this suspect test is nothing more than a distraction from addressing any real problems that exist with this tier. Due process makes unbans difficult. I have played through the height of paraspam eras with plenty of success and don't think that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the tier. But, banning Machamp will not solve whatever you think is wrong with the tier. These arguments about what to ban will continue, and when it is finally through your thick skulls that you can't ban Iron Head, you will settle on Jirachi and forever be left to wonder if Machamp ever needed to be banned. If you want to change the tier, don't kill Machamp for the sins of Jirachi.
 
bla

(i did read your entire post just didn't wanna fully copy it over)
I wanna focus on your last line because it kinda shows that you maybe haven't been keeping up with the endless discussions that ultimately led to this suspect. (by the way huge fan and i totally get that you don't read everything anymore)

Machamp is not dying for Jirachi's sins.
Machamp (or specifically NG + Dyna) sins on its own even without para because of the endless 50/50s it induces that allow it to bs its way through mons that should normally beat it.

In short: Machamp, in a vacuum, is problematic and it needs to go.
And that's really all that matters here. Sure, it's even worse when you fit it on a paraspam or support it with Cress but that's not what this is about.
Yes, Jirachi is faaaaaaaaaaaar worse but it's a lot harder to ban and banning machamp doesn't mean Jirachi won't be suspected in the future.

I think it should be entirely possible to accept Jirachi is the biggest culprit in the tier while also understanding Machamp just doesn't belong here (or in any competitive format).
 
Okay firstly I'm tired of seeing: "wHat aBoUt RacHi?? Fix tHe REAL pr0blem".... its getting old af guys, seriously just deal with it (I'll readdress this later)

Now I'd like to state that while Machamp has very-mid defenses (with low speed) and takes massive damage from the tier's hard-hitters those factors aren't enough to mitigate its horrendous presence in the tier
Machamp obv isn't this overwhelming force that can steamroll teams
It kind of just disintegrates teams if rng permits it
Unless you have a resist (which you should) DynamPun is doing like 50% (most times) so if you value the mon facing Machamp you might switch out
Machamp's Payback is nearly ohko-ing any ghost/psy or just outright doing so
It's easy to just start playing a fucking game of hot potato against this thing just to attempt to preserve a particular mon
This guy can legit beat mons that it shouldn't because their very life is dependent on a coin toss

I see people saying that paraspam is the bigger issue, and yes while that is true considering how easy it is to set up with Mie, Clef, Rotom it is obvious that Machamp's signature becomes even more illicit... first of all paraspam has been around since inception lmao, you cant ban status especially when its a 75% chance odds in your favor. The thing is, Machamp literally enables itself.
Considering my previous scenario, you can send out your fight-resist to take paltry dmg from DynamPun. If you decide to stay in and hurt yourself in confusion that Payback is surely a bitch.
With leads, Champ just beats Aero. Hit from confusion can possibly prevent Zelf from booming OR they can simply payback + bp. If Zelf does boom, the Champ can switch out anyways and continue the dogshit antics later on. Combine this with Rachi the paraflinch master and you have a hot mess.

The thing is though, Rachi is a necessary evil for the tier lmao. Well rather, it's defensive profile and plethora of moves allows it to handle the top 2 Pokemon in DPP: Tyranitar and Latias. The little celestial bastard is well-hated for it's IH but Jirachi is much, much more than cheap hax machine. We are just upset because degenerates have no qualms when they use it to flinch the shit out your Magnezone. But like I said, Rachi's properties play an important role against other top threats.
Machamp on the other hand is asinine: just click stab, *------ hurt itself in confusion", kill, rinse & repeat. There is no nuanced thought process to this. Shit, I don't even think Champ has another set besides dynam, payback, bp, filler... oh and you ask why? Because it requires zero thinking to use it.
Just ban it, idc if it stays or goes
 
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This has been the most painful ladder request I've ever had. Every lil shits on the low ladder are using Zapmie with some variations of Heatran, CB Ttar, and Loom, or it's Machamp + Gyarados + Rachi para asshats. I had to go through at least 10+ accounts because losing a game before 10-15 games matters so much in the long term. The worst part was that I was forced to build new teams which I don't typically do because I am a dirty team stealer >:(
I abused t-spikes to gain victories, from Scarf Roserade Double Hazards to Zapdos + Tspikes Forretress n Starmie Double Spin.
Excal will pay for his sins for making me suffer through this dumbass ladder grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I am too ladder addicted please helpppppp


As for Machamp itself, I'm leaning more toward the ban than the latter, though I'll figure it out once it comes out because it depends on if I accept this or not when I feel like the adaptation on it when playing/building vs it personally. To start with here I think Machamp can be reasonably prepped from teams that are momentum-heavy offensive teams that do not let it breathe, or stall/defensive variations can abuse Dynamic Punch PPs and cripple his and their teams with Tspikes / Hazard combos since Machamp teams tend to be vulnerable vs it. But I don't appreciate how much Machamp affects every playstyle in this tier because at worst it may not beat their team, but the fact it has a chance to do it because the confuse hit that mattered snowballs into their favor does not sit with me right. There's also that Machamp teams have a good amount of flexibility in the team structures that covers against a wide cast. There are so many different para spreaders that it's insanely hard to build that handle all of them, and it feels like if I do build my team to become very Machamp-proof, it becomes just trash vs the other playstyles esp when Jirachi, Clefable, Skarmory, and Spore Breloom put some annoying ass restriction in teambuilding as well.

What I am just saying again is that Machamp teams cover so many playstyles while teams that exploit Machamp pretty hard are poor vs most other things, like the ones I used are just rlly ladder-proof because people do not take account of t-spikes nowadays. While I think you can be bulletproof against it by using Lum Berry n such, I just find that Machamp cores have so much bullshit to cover its weakness that you have to go far to not get bullshitted by it.

If Machamp doesn't get banned, the meta will still be as fine enough to play at. Removing it doesn't solve the other big issues DPP OU suffers from. But like at some point you have gotta accept that the Smogon policy will not change because they're afraid of "complex bans" and try to be simplified since of course they're afraid of people pointing out that "reason". I get why they chose this way, but I find old gens should have some sort of excuse considering that we back it up with history(and it should be used on very extreme cases), and rules for modern gen being applied to the old gens as well just doesn't sit with me right. I know it for sure made me take Smogon less seriously as a competitive site, and made me care less about the tiers that are affected in this position because when things are finally changing, it's usually too late for those who used to care. Seeing the Bo3, the Rachi I-head discussions, see how the council policy/head gens respond to these problems made me made me mind that it's just not worth the time if you strive for changes that most would agree on. Perhaps there will be some significant change that can make most happy, but I don't know if I will be there when that happens in another decade lmao.


Alright sorry for off topic rant there, felt like it converted there somehow perfectly and I just wanted to rant as I had these thoughts in my mind. But yes, I do believe that removing Machamp would be more positive than negative. It doesn't have that big of a healthy presence on the meta, and at best it's a DDtar check depending on the person, makes the lead meta more chaotic and less solved-ish because I know for sure that leads become more reliable, and less explosive when not taking in account for Machamp in the lead.
If Machamp gets banned, then all I can say is I wish Compnr, Mateo420, and every Machamp leads users a very much "your days are numbered" because fuck them Machamp leads users. Yall are so fucking miserable to play against and make wack-ass plays with fishy-ass team structures. Idc if Machamp lead is mid or not, it tilts me to no end and that's legit the thing I will cheer out the most if the Champ gets banned lmao.
 
Hi, I'm also an old semi-retired player. I used to play on PO, and I still play old gens on showdown occasionally. I made a new smogon account because I wanted to share my thoughts on this Machamp suspect. innisfree said a lot of what I wanted to say about it already. Pokémon is an RNG and prediction game. If you don't want to play with RNG and prediction elements, I recommend deleting your account, and trying out a perfect information zero luck based game. Chess is fun! Or, innis recommended TF2, so maybe try that.

If you think that banning Machamp will make Generation 4 OverUsed Competitive Pokémon less "uncompetitive" you are fooling yourself. As someone who played this meta a lot, I have won (and lost) games because of a Gyarados Waterfall flinch, a Heatran Fire Blast miss, full paras, damage rolls, and random critical hits, probably more than a thousand times more than winning or losing because of a Machamp dynamic punch confusion self-hit. Why? Because Machamp isn't that good of a mon to use in the format. DPP/HGSS OU throughout most of its life has been has been a fast paced meta, and a slow guy that's weak to sand and spikes just isn't getting the chances to hax his way through the majority of teams unless you support it a ton. Acting like inducing confusion + doing damage is somehow a greater threat to this puristic idea of "healthy competitive Pokémon" than someone using an inaccurate move like Focus Blast or a move with a freeze or a flinch chance on an actually good mon is insane mental gymnastics to justify banning something that was never an issue.

Speaking of DP/HGSS OU being a fast paced format, there's a pretty telling reason for why this suspect IS an issue today. As someone who has played this format since 2009 on and off, seeing the recent trend of players drooling over Clefable like it's a newfound god amongst mortals makes it clear why Machamp is on the chopping block. Clefable is a fine alternative to Blissey, but it's being treated like it's one of the best Pokémon in the format. But guess what? Blissey has always been a pretty big liability on any team that isn't full stall, and Clefable is the same. They are abused by Machamp, among several other phys attacking mons that scare them out and can pressure physical walls switching in. Clefable never was going to be better than Blissey in this regard, and I would certainly never consider either as a candidate for top 4 in this format. So why is it being used so much? I remember reading on some part of the Dugtrio discussion that Dugtrio being gone would make Heatran and TTar better, which are Pokémon that "we want to be good" in a format. Clefable is also a Pokémon that it seems the playerbase "wants to be good", because slow teams based around Clef/Heatran/TTar are familiar to you if you're coming from XY/USUM or forgot how high octane gen 4 is, and Machamp shows why those kinds of teams are full of liabilities in gen 4 specifically. And don't get me wrong - it's fine to innovate with previously underused mons like Clefable, and it's fine to try out slow teams in gen 4. Metas shift over time, and new strategies evolve to beat what is popular contemporaneously. But when you're banning stuff that develops to punish YOUR development because you believe a meta "should" have certain Pokémon being the best, that's not facilitating a metagame, it's killing one. If you are having trouble with Machamp, you should try using a decent offense team without a passive mon that Machamp can abuse and you'll see how inefficient he is without a pink blob to come in on. That's why he wasn't a major issue for 90% of this generation's lifespan. RNG is not the point - every feature of mons has RNG. The impetus behind this suspect is that the kind of teams which dominate gens 5-8 don't work as well in gen 4, and Machamp, as a stallbreaker, is at least one part of the reason.

Machamp isn't broken by any definition, and "uncompetitive" really can't be defined. If you want to ban him, ban him because you think the meta would be more fun without him. Personally, I never had an issue facing Machamp, and I think he makes the format more fun. First of all, he does a good job of ensuring the format stays fast-paced, because the best defense is a good offense when it comes to slow mid-bulk stallbreaker guys like Machamp. He is easily pressured, and because of that he will almost never get in without a sac or double switch, and when he does get in, in most cases he still has to make a prediction that could end his entire career if he's wrong, even if there is high reward. Those interactions are a large part of why I WOULD choose to play competitive fucking Pokémon of all things instead of chess. This game that was literally designed to make Rock/Paper/Scissors more luck based, and again, I just don't understand how Machamp being able to confuse + hit things is more uncompetitive than anything else in this game. Especially this format. I mean come on, everyone is memeing about "what about Jirachi" right now, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Literally any Pokémon can hax you, and I don't see why a 50% chance to do so is very different from a 60% or a 30% or a 20%.

I also think it's hilarious that the mindset these days is to go back to ban things in older generations that players for DECADES have found ways to deal with. There's a reason Machamp was never touched before. This suspect isn't about making the format more "fair". It's about enforcing modern generations' concepts of what's "good" and "bad" in Pokémon formats onto a tier that has been totally fine without those sensibilities for a long time. You can see the same thing with the gen 4 Dugtrio ban, which I think was one of the most comically unnecessary bans in the history of Pokémon simulators. Dugtrio was pretty awful in gen 4 ou because any time you had been trapped and revenged by Dugtrio, you basically get a free setup turn. Plenty of things abused it because immuning EQ or tanking an 80 base attack aerial ace is not a rare thing. It's also completely cooked by priority of any kind which is everywhere. But instead of recognizing that HGSS is in fact, not BW or XY or USUM, but a high-paced format where single setup turns are valuable and choice locking can be a huge liability, we took the approach of "Dugtrio disables slow teams centered around Heatran and TTar" (despite slow teams centered around Heatran and TTar being a marginal portion of the gen 4 ou metagame) and decided that was "unfair" to have Dugtrio in the tier, despite having negligible ladder usage, and mostly being used in creative ways on teams, because it beat a team archetype popular in BW/XY/USUM OU, a completely different format. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? It's not even banned in Gen 4 UU apparently, which is even funnier. Anyway, this post is about Machamp, not Dugtrio, but the point is that the trajectory of these suspects and bans is showing a trend towards forcibly making all major formats blend into one nearly identical thing.

Sort of a side point here, but I think bans have gone far enough in the modern generations, and now going back to sterilize old generations is not going to make those formats more fun. As someone semi-retired, when I do get the itch to play mons, it's almost never gens 5-8, so I'll say something controversial here. We banned every salient feature that made those generations fun to play. Were a lot of them "broken"? Sure. BW Swift Swim Kingdra was dumb as hell. But is it more fun to play BW without it? Not for me. And guess what? RBY Tauros is at least as broken as BW Kingdra, but many people love playing RBY. I'm sure if GSC came out today Snorlax would be tried and hanged for being uncounterable too. Probably ADV Aero would get banned too for outspeeding everything and being able to win with an "uncompetitive" Rock Slide flinch strategy. And each of those would be a loss for their respective metagame. I'm not saying Machamp is as significant of a loss as those cases, because Machamp is historically barely an OU mon by usage, and certainly not broken, but it would show that as a community, we would rather adapt a metagame to fit our playstyle than adapt our playstyle to fit a metagame, and that just doesn't seem like a fun approach to this silly RNG prediction game.

It's been fun playing Gen 4 a bit lately, which I have because this suspect has put a spotlight onto it so the ladder has been fairly active, but I honestly am not super invested in mons anymore, and I have a life, so grinding to 85% GXE just isn't worth it. I think cutting Machamp is a myopic choice that will have little impact on your experience playing this format except to make slow and stale teams safer to use, which, if you want that, then vote for it. Personally, several gens' OUs feel about the same at this point, and this would certainly help gen 4 lean that way which seems a waste of a perfectly fun and unique generation, but you'll be the ones playing it more than me, so by all means, ban him if you want. I always find it amusing to watch as a playerbase convinces themselves that they're making this RNG based game more "fair", because Sisyphus would have better luck getting that boulder up a hill.
 
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As someone who does not play DPP there's something that stands out as super strange to me here. If Machamp is a Pokemon that can cause the worse player to win, why does it make so few appearances in top level tournaments? And why is its win rate pretty average even in those few appearances?

SPL XV - 5 appearances, 60% win
SPL XIV - 13 appearances, 46% win
SPL XIII - 4 appearances, 75% win
SPL XII - 7 appearances, 28% win
SPL XI - 4 appearances, 25% win

33 appearances out of ~230 games. What am I missing? Normally when I see a Pokemon banned it's closer to universal inclusion, but Machamp barely seems to be used at all? Is the crux of this ban a deep dislike of RNG in the game? I must surely be missing something major here.
 
As someone who does not play DPP there's something that stands out as super strange to me here. If Machamp is a Pokemon that can cause the worse player to win, why does it make so few appearances in top level tournaments? And why is its win rate pretty average even in those few appearances?

I can only speak from my perspective here, but not every player wishes to win via the Machamp route. Using Machamp involves rolling the dice, and the top players would rather adopt a more strategic approach rather than "click Dynamic Punch and pray for confusion". Using luck-based strategies is not the most consistent tool for a good player (although some do use it), but it is the most consistent tool for a not-so-good player to level the playing field. And I'd rather incentivize a not-so-good player to level the playing field by getting better rather than using a luck-based approach.

As someone who does not play DPP there's something that stands out as super strange to me here. If Machamp is a Pokemon that can cause the worse player to win, why does it make so few appearances in top level tournaments? And why is its win rate pretty average even in those few appearances?

Because win rate is not the most effective metric for measuring Machamp's impact. If you show me the replays, I can provide you with more insight. But as an example, Machamp's win rate does not paint the whole picture because there's a lot of things to consider.

For instance, a lead Machamp when facing something like a lead Lum Metagross (and assuming Meta is faster), is going to lose the 1v1. So in this situation, using Machamp's winrate would be a completely wrong metric because whether the Machamp user then wins or loses the game, does not tell you anything about Machamp.

I'm also linking a replay here of Machamp doing what it does, i.e., taking out some of the more resilient phys def Pokemon via RNG:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2267805319-920pab4jocgzlhalg4e15o79xi3i1mmpw

The Machamp did what it does best to beat my Hippo, and if the opp had something like DD TTar in the back, I could've been cooked.

But here also, win rate is not the right criteria because 1) Machamp did take out one of its counters and 2) the Machamp user proceeded to lose the game.
 
As someone who does not play DPP there's something that stands out as super strange to me here. If Machamp is a Pokemon that can cause the worse player to win, why does it make so few appearances in top level tournaments? And why is its win rate pretty average even in those few appearances?

SPL XV - 5 appearances, 60% win
SPL XIV - 13 appearances, 46% win
SPL XIII - 4 appearances, 75% win
SPL XII - 7 appearances, 28% win
SPL XI - 4 appearances, 25% win

33 appearances out of ~230 games. What am I missing? Normally when I see a Pokemon banned it's closer to universal inclusion, but Machamp barely seems to be used at all? Is the crux of this ban a deep dislike of RNG in the game? I must surely be missing something major here.
if your post starts with "i dont play [format in question], BUT" that's a sign to reevaluate whether or not you should be spending time making the post to begin with

seriously, i feel like these boards are a twilight zone of genuine madness. it's universally understood how frustrating pokemon in general is, and then when a community finally takes actual steps to oust a cancerous coinflip generator---quite possibly one of the most straightforward examples of uninteractive uncompetitiveness, you get eight billion armchair tiering philosophers coming out of the woodworks trying to emulate their favorite neoplatonist blorbo with awkward rambling interjections about "myopic choices" and "ok but the winrate."

there isn't even substantial collateral to account for. why anyone is wearing out their hands typing essays or wasting their own time rifling through tournament data to defend quirky mr 4 hands is something i will not have figured out at any point in my lifetime
 
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