DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

Status
Not open for further replies.
Alienjesus said:
i want to re-pen the debate about jumpluff being broken in UU.

i know we decided it is, but i want to reinforce it again to see if someone will actually believe us this time.

it took me 3 pokemon to take down this damn thing, and thats not including the one that was slept. the only reason it died was because it ran out of subs
Click to expand...

It's funny, because my ScarfApe outspeeds it and kills it in one shot with Ice Punch. I'm not saying that means it's not broken, but I'll bet pretty much any Scarfer can put a decent hole in Jumpluff.

I wouldn't think Cradily is still UU, is it?

EDIT: 1500th reply is mine... bwahahahaha
 
Alienjesus said:
i want to re-pen the debate about jumpluff being broken in UU.

i know we decided it is, but i want to reinforce it again to see if someone will actually believe us this time.

it took me 3 pokemon to take down this damn thing, and thats not including the one that was slept. the only reason it died was because it ran out of subs
Click to expand...

Use a priority move such as Quick Attack or Ice Shard or moves to break subs like Rock Blast. You can have Pokemon that are immune to sleep, or will Sleep Talk.
 
I haven't really had a problem with Ninetails. Once Sleep Clause is activated
most Fire types (especially Torkoal) can counter it, in addition to Altaria and most likely Grumpig. Hypno could also probably switch in without taking too much damage and do a decent chunk back to Ninetails.
Click to expand...

my grumpig died to a nasty plot fire blast just today(did 99% ). although i cant remember if i remembered to set thick fat so i'll have to check that

also, people dont seem to realise that whilst jumpluff isnt the best defender, its also often got some evs in it, and can take a quick attack. ice shard users are uncommon in UU aswell.
 
Some good counters to Jumpluff that haven't totally been looked over yet are:

Toxic Orb Clefable - It can't get put to sleep by Jumpluff, Leech Seed won't drain any health, Clefable can Encore those Subs, and it can kill it with Ice Beam quite easily. This is pretty much a perfect counter to Jumpluff.

Swellow - It will most likely already be statused from Toxic/Flame Orb, so it doesn't mind that, and since its faster than Jumpluff, it can come in for the kill with Brave Bird/Facade.

Scarf users w/Insomnia and Vital Spirit - Base 115 isn't super hard to outspeed after a Choice Scarf, and Jumpluff is going to have to either switch out, or be smooshed.

Thunder Wave - If Jumpluff is paralyzed, it's pretty much gone, unless it can miraculously find the time to use Aromatherapy, which it most likely won't even have on its set since it really needs an attack to go with Sub/Seed/Sleep Powder.

Taunt - A really fast Taunt user such as Electrode can shut Jumpluff down completely, forcing it to attack, allowing it to be ripped to shreds by Thunderbolt

Encore - If Jumpluff gets any of its moves Encored, it's in a lot of trouble. For instance, Vigoroth can come in and Encore anything that Jumpluff can throw at him, and Jumpluff will have no choice but to switch out or be killed.

Jumpluff's not that hard to deal with.
 
Bologo said:
Some good counters to Jumpluff that haven't totally been looked over yet are:

Toxic Orb Clefable - It can't get put to sleep by Jumpluff, Leech Seed won't drain any health, Clefable can Encore those Subs, and it can kill it with Ice Beam quite easily. This is pretty much a perfect counter to Jumpluff.

Swellow - It will most likely already be statused from Toxic/Flame Orb, so it doesn't mind that, and since its faster than Jumpluff, it can come in for the kill with Brave Bird/Facade.

Scarf users w/Insomnia and Vital Spirit - Base 115 isn't super hard to outspeed after a Choice Scarf, and Jumpluff is going to have to either switch out, or be smooshed.

Thunder Wave - If Jumpluff is paralyzed, it's pretty much gone, unless it can miraculously find the time to use Aromatherapy, which it most likely won't even have on its set since it really needs an attack to go with Sub/Seed/Sleep Powder.

Taunt - A really fast Taunt user such as Electrode can shut Jumpluff down completely, forcing it to attack, allowing it to be ripped to shreds by Thunderbolt

Encore - If Jumpluff gets any of its moves Encored, it's in a lot of trouble. For instance, Vigoroth can come in and Encore anything that Jumpluff can throw at him, and Jumpluff will have no choice but to switch out or be killed.

Jumpluff's not that hard to deal with.
Click to expand...


clefable has been mentioned for BL many times already so potentially wont be a counter soon. lots of things die to chocie scarf, that doesnt mean i want one on my team. thunderwave is a good counter, but is kinda predictable on most things. Taunt can be good aswell, but theres not all that many taunt users faster then jumpluff in UU, which is another limitation to his countering. Encore can be a bugger aswell, but with the exception of substitute, if its managed to seed or sleep or sunny day or w/e its done what it needs to and can switch out next turn.

i speak partially from experience, as i use jumpluff a lot, although i use it only in OU play. i just believe its to unbalancing in UU and thus i refuse to use it in my UU teams.

i know people will say how can i know if i've never tried, so i will start its testing tomorrow. although i doubt my word will be taken over the likes of bologo, shiny oddish and cynthia.
 
Posting to confirm that Jumpluff is a waste of a teamslot in UU. Other than sleep the only threat it poses is through the use of Leech Seed. But wait...Leech Seed has no effect on Grass types! And of all the tiers, which tier sees the most usage of Grass types? UU!

Oh, but wait, Jumpluff has Aerial Ace!

Standard Jumpluff Aerial Ace vs standard 216/148 Meganium = 19.15% - 22.54%
252 Atk Jumpluff Aerial Ace vs standard 216/148 Meganium = 26.76% - 31.27%

Standard Jumpluff Aerial Ace vs standard 244/136 Vileplume = 23.58% - 27.84%
252 Atk Jumpluff Aerial Ace vs standard 244/136 Vileplume = 33.24% - 39.20%

Standard Jumpluff Aerial Ace vs standard 132/0 Leafeon = 22.37% - 26.64%
252 Atk Jumpluff Aerial Ace vs standard 132/0 Leafeon = 31.58% - 37.17%

Those three have access to moves that can easily 2HKO Jumpluff (HP Ice/Sludge Bomb/Aerial Ace respectively) and they form only three of a large band of Pokemon who completely shut down Jumpluff.

Tropius has Meganium-esque defences, Roost and can hit back with STAB Aerial Ace.

Cacturne and Shiftry can stand up to Aerial Aces from a pathetic 55 base Atk, but are 2HKO'd by U-Turn. Shiftry even has Early Bird.

Wormadan-Steel sports a Leech Seed immunity, a neutrality to Aerial Ace and a lovely 95 Def stat. The Ground form is still "weak" to Aerial Ace, but has 105 Def.

Cradily has 97 base Defence, a neutrality to Aerial Ace, Recover and STAB Rock Attacks.

Combined with bologo's post, that's well over a dozen clear-cut counters to Jumpluff, so I can't see any point discussing it.
 
I wasn't aware we came to that conclusion at all. The only conclusion I can see is the unanimous conclusion in the Contributions and Corrections forum where everybody agreed that Jumpluff was UU.

So anyway, here's a list of Jumpluff counters:

Clefable
Vigoroth
Swellow
Electrode
Meganium
Vileplume
Leafeon
Tropius
Cradily

Compare that to our list of Hitmonlee/Primeape/Scyther/Pinsir counters (and also consider the validity of the counters) and you'll see why Jumpluff is UU.
 
Bologo said:
Scarf users w/Insomnia and Vital Spirit - Base 115 isn't super hard to outspeed after a Choice Scarf, and Jumpluff is going to have to either switch out, or be smooshed.
Click to expand...
Not to be an ass but some of these aren't really clear cut.

Primeape really enjoys CB more than Scarf, idea of Scarf Vigoroth is laughable at best. Scarf Banette doesn't outspeed Jumpy leaving Noctowl the only real safe one. Hypno doesn't really offer any threat...except Trick Room. Which is another counter by the way.

Bologo said:
Thunder Wave - If Jumpluff is paralyzed, it's pretty much gone, unless it can miraculously find the time to use Aromatherapy, which it most likely won't even have on its set since it really needs an attack to go with Sub/Seed/Sleep Powder.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately you have to paralyze it first...which is easier said than done.

Bologo said:
Taunt - A really fast Taunt user such as Electrode can shut Jumpluff down completely, forcing it to attack, allowing it to be ripped to shreds by Thunderbolt
Click to expand...
Who. The hell. Uses Electrode...the thing can't even 2HKO Jumpluff with T-bolt with leftovers taken into account, not my idea of ripping to shreds. You need HP Ice...honestly.
 
Please remove Clefable from the counters list it's most likely BL.

Also Pluff can run HP flying which will hit Leafeon and standard Vileplume harder, probably Tropius as well.
 
Forsety said:
Not to be an ass but some of these aren't really clear cut.

Primeape really enjoys CB more than Scarf, idea of Scarf Vigoroth is laughable at best. Scarf Banette doesn't outspeed Jumpy leaving Noctowl the only real safe one. Hypno doesn't really offer any threat...except Trick Room. Which is another counter by the way.

Just because Scarf Vigoroth is laughable, doesn't mean that it's not a counter. I never said that counters had to be stuff that people used. Come to think of it, these guys don't even need Scarf, because what the heck is Jumpluff going to do in return besides Leech Seed? You're still forcing it to switch out, since it can't do anything else, especially if it gets Encored by Vigoroth.

Yes, Scarf Banette does outspeed Jumpluff if it uses a +Spd Nature.

I do believe that Hypno does pose a threat. Remember Switcheroo.

Unfortunately you have to paralyze it first...which is easier said than done.

Explain how this is difficult. If you have decent prediction skills, this isn't really hard at all. Just Thunder Wave it as it comes in, or just use Electrode.

Who. The hell. Uses Electrode...the thing can't even 2HKO Jumpluff with T-bolt with leftovers taken into account, not my idea of ripping to shreds. You need HP Ice...honestly.

Like I said with Vigoroth, who the heck cares if nobody uses it? Plus there actually are some people that use Electrode, and most Electrodes carry HP Ice anyway as a psuedo-boltbeam. I will admit that Thunderbolt was my mistake though.
Click to expand...
 
Explain how this is difficult. If you have decent prediction skills, this isn't really hard at all. Just Thunder Wave it as it comes in, or just use Electrode.
Click to expand...

Given that speed is of the utmost importance to a subseeder, I doubt Jumpluff is going to be switching into anything that regularly carries T-wave.
Using it on a pokemon that doesn't carry it usually to surprise it might work but it's dependent on prediction AND Jumpluff switching into something that could carry T-wave. By definition it isn't a counter either.
 
Ninetales should be moved to BL...

It has decent speed and Nasty Plot.
Hypnosis for one turn guarentees Nasty Plot on the next. Then STAB Flamethrower kills off lots while Energy Ball takes care of Ground/Water/Rock types... After one nasty plot and with its S.Atk it can easily kill off a lot of its counters.
 
I'd like to see it make huge dents on other fire types. Not to mention its only really workable moves are those two which don't have great coverage. Ninetails is great but not great enough for OU standards, or BL standards.
 
1059860 said:
Ninetales should be moved to BL...

It has decent speed and Nasty Plot.
Hypnosis for one turn guarentees Nasty Plot on the next. Then STAB Flamethrower kills off lots while Energy Ball takes care of Ground/Water/Rock types... After one nasty plot and with its S.Atk it can easily kill off a lot of its counters.
Click to expand...

Hypnosis in UU means a free switch-in to Hypno, Noctowl and other sleep-immune pokemon, both of whom can take at least 1 NP flamethrower / energy ball and force Ninetails out with Hypnosis. Further, Energy Ball is absorbed quite easily by fire types, and when we have at least two Flash Fire pokemon in UU (Ninetails and Rapidash)... Ninetails will be forced to use another attack.

Further, Rapidash is faster, resists Energy Ball and is immune to fire. Pretty much a definition of counter here.

Alteria 4x resists energy ball, 2x resists flamethrower, and can roost it off.

Faster pokemon like Purugly and Persian can hypnosis back, or just smack it with Fake-out / Return.

Strangely enough, Extrasensory / Dark Pulse + Imprison Ninetales pretty much counters Ninetales if sleep clause is in effect. >_>

Ninetailes has plenty of counters.
 
Clefable just has unpredictibility but no real power going for it making it easy to deal with through either counters or brute force tactics.
 
Fishin said:
Current Discussion
Kangaskhan
Crobat

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff
Click to expand...

Alienjesus said:
in that case how did this thread manage to come to the conclusion that it was BL earlier?
Click to expand...

Lee said:
I wasn't aware we came to that conclusion at all. The only conclusion I can see is the unanimous conclusion in the Contributions and Corrections forum where everybody agreed that Jumpluff was UU.
Click to expand...
just to back up my claim.

and as for these counters:-
Clefable-this things been suggested for move up to BL many times, so is quite possibly only temporary.
Vigoroth- no-one uses this. ever. also, upon switching in to jumpluff who quite possibly has a sub up, it takes a leech seed, then jumpluff switches out. jumpluff therefore has the advantage.
Swellow-this one is a good one. obviously it'd have had to have activated its orb first but i can see it working. if it comes in after something else is slept, jumpluff with sub on the switch though, and then leech as its sub breaks. you then have poor swellow losing even more hp then usual. A rare case though im sure.
Electrode- a true counter if it carries hp ice as taunt just encourages a u-turn if jumpluff has it. they're pretty uncommon though, and again, are only a true counter if jumpluff has already put something to sleep. and no-one seems to be considering that this thing is fecked by a stun spore, which isnt a completely unlikely move on jumpy.
Meganium- a good counter. i agree. the sleep clause thing applies withoutn lum berry but hell, jumpy cant sleep everything right?
Vileplume- see above.
Leafeon- see above. this thing isnt overly keen on stun spores but is still usable paralysed.
Tropius- this ones another good counter. the problem with jumpluffs counters though, is that its very easy to get jumpluff out without damage, and very easy to bring him back later to screw something else over.
Cradily- again another good grass type counter. i just dunno though. theres seventeen types of pokemon, whats to say i want to use a grass type on every team?

the same applies to ninetales really. in UU the list of fire types goes: torkoal, camerupt, magcargo, rapidash, ninetales. both ninetales and rapidash have been on the bl testing list at some point. magcargo takes a nasty amount from energy ball after a nasty plot, as does camerupt. leaving only torkoal and a ninetales (and altaria) of your own to take the hit. unfortunately ninetales cant do anything besides hypnosis each other. that leaves a pretty small counter list. people also seem to ignore the fact it might not be running energy ball, and could be packing hp ground for fires instead, or hp ice for altaria. or hp rock for both.

you missed choice scarf things with stone edge as jumpluff counters, but they're not too hard to see coming really, and stun spore does a number, as does sleep powder. leech seed still benefits you too.

also you missed noctowl as a reliable counter, but i think thats the only UU insomniac pokemon who does truly counter it sufficiently.
 
Clefable-this things been suggested for move up to BL many times, so is quite possibly only temporary.
Click to expand...
Looking back most of the Clefable proposals were made by new members or people unable to back up their arguments convincingly that it mauls UU. Don't hold your breath, its not going anywhere anytime soon.

in that case how did this thread manage to come to the conclusion that it was BL earlier?
Click to expand...
High speed and versatile support pool and it was one of the old Advance BL's. However it was blocked heavily by many others when it came to it.
 
people also seem to ignore the fact [Ninetales] might not be running energy ball, and could be packing hp ground for fires instead, or hp ice for altaria. or hp rock for both.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately if Ninetales foregoes Energy Ball then its incredibly vulnerable to the ever common Water type ... so really its better off with it than without.
 
On the other hand I've seen Dark Pulse Ninetales doing decently too and really only other attack I'd forgoe Energy Ball for. Trouble is it becomes somewhat of a Houndoom Jr.
 
Alienjesus said:
whats to say i want to use a grass type on every team?
Click to expand...

Umm, really, now you're just whining.

There's one thing about UU that is the same as OU. You can't friggin counter every single thing on just one team!

If you're not particularly weak against any of Jumpluff's tactics, it won't be a problem.

If you don't want to run a grass type on every team, then just don't. Just use prediction on every team, unless you don't want to do that, and in that case, I really can't help you there.

Jumpluff really isn't as threatening as something such as Pinsir to actually worry about carrying a counter for it in every team.

Bulky Grass pokemon are generally good in UU anyway, and are on most teams as it is.
 
perhaps you're right. i must say i've never struggled too much with pinsiur personally, but i'll put that down to different fighting styles.

out of the current UUs, the ones that seem difficult to counter have been:
scyther
clefable
rapidash
ninetales
jumpluff
hitmonlee

these have all been addressed so i guess i'll have to make do :P
also note that i dont think hitmonlee is broken...i just have a tendency to make hitmonlee weak teams :P
 
Forsety said:
On the other hand I've seen Dark Pulse Ninetales doing decently too and really only other attack I'd forgoe Energy Ball for. Trouble is it becomes somewhat of a Houndoom Jr.
Click to expand...
But using Dark Pulse sacrifices Hypnosis. I'm surprised Flareon hasn't been mentioned as a counter yet---it can force Ninetales to switch with Yawn, has base 110 SD to laugh at common moves (base 65 HP can be amended with EV investment), and poses a serious threat with base 130 Attack, the highest in UU (tied with Absol and Kingler) vs. 73/75 physical defense. In fact, the only move Flareon fears is Hypnosis. Flash Fire makes a perfect switch-in: if Ninetales sets up on, say, a bulky Grass type, why not just seed it and switch in on the Fire Blast? And if you take any damage, Flareon can heal with Wish. I really don't mind Ninetales in UU. I'm currently building a team around Flareon anyways.

EDIT: On to the above list:

scyther

STEALTH ROCK OMGZ
I think Scyther is countered well by Wormadam-S, the Nidos, Hitmontop (I don't know if Swords Dancing Aerial Ace versions are common) and Sandslash.

clefable

Clefable is slow. I never found it much of a threat--a Choiced Hitmonlee does well. Decent SD to take a hit, and if you use Limber, resists Thunder Wave.

rapidash

Gastrodon commonly carries Surf. I don't have much experience with Rapidash, but most of the sets listed pinpoint that as long as it doesn't have Solarbeam, it does well against it. Quagsire and Relicanth hate WoW, so they aren't mentioned. Bulky waters in general devastate it.

ninetales

I mentioned Flareon above. If it chooses to run Dark Pulse, it will lose either Energy Ball or Hypnosis, crucial against bulky waters or other Fire types, respectively.

jumpluff

I never found it too much of it threat. Bologo above mentioned several counters.

hitmonlee

Claydol was recently introduced to UU, and resists almost all of its common moves. Even with sucky attack, it will still make a dent in 50/53 physical defenses. Counter versions can be met with a swift CM/Psychic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top