Well, kangaskahn is UU right now, right? So if CB kangaskahn is fine for UU, then CB Miltank should be fine.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
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Well, why not discuss Kanga? At 105/80/80, she can take a couple of hits. She learns Wish to support the team. With 95 Attack and 90 Speed, she can use a SubPunch set to good effect, she can use a CB set with Return/Earthquake/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch. Hell she can even run Drain Punch to hit an Aggron which comes in predicting Return, which heals a LOT of her HP. She can even use the elemental Punches (albeit, without Scrappy). What will effectively wall her in UU?
All Kanga's are female. Also, it learns wish? It's not on serebii, is it an XD move?
Anyways...Miltank is BL-worthy, in my eyes. Not for it's offensive abilities, but because it's such an effective defensive pokemon. It walls basically any physical attacker that doesn't have a fighting move, has a decent support movepool, and isn't so weak that it'll fall to any random special attack. The fact that it can pose an offensive threat with decent attack and speed (or curse, and the ability to hit any ghosts with Scrappy) certainly improves it's position, though, since most people would be expecting a tank. There are certainly pokemon that can beat it, but the defensive ability it has is just too big IMO.
I don't have a solid opinion on Kanga yet.
The same thing as Hitmonlee ... good prediction and figuring out its set.
The Wish set is going to have to give one move up for wish, possibly too for protect as well, so she loses some type coverage. Same with the SubPuncher.
The Choice Bander is going to have the same problem as all CBer's being locked into a move ....
Even with base 90 speed there still quite a number of things faster than her, that can hit her with crippling status or even SE attacks.
Kangas' like Hitmon is a powerhouse, but not unstoppable by any means.
With Return doing effectively 150+ bp after STAB, I don't see any point in Kahn using the elemental punches. Hell, the punches are technically weaker than Return unless they are 4x effective.
Realistically speaking Wish Kanga's won't be rampaging around theres a snowballs chance in hell you'll get a decent one with Wish. Let alone one with Wish and Scrappy.
Speaking as someone who actually has experience with using Kangaskhan in the D/P environment. As powerful as she is 95 attack only just cuts it and will still be running from any fighting attack due to both the lack of a reliable buff and recovery.
Heck for some people who insist on comparing Miltank and Kangaskhan one actually has Curse and a recovery while the other has neither.
I don't think Wish+Scrappy is possible. Anyway, by that logic Raikou with HP Ice 70 shouldn't be a threat, since getting a really good one isn't that easy. On Competitor, where most competitive stuff will happen, it'll be just a question of selecting IVs and Hidden Power Type and BP.
So thats not an argument. But this isn't about how well it'll do in OU, its about whether or not anything in UU is really going to take it on. I hated facing it in Advance unless I had Misdreavus, and even then Shadow Ball would mess me up on a SubPunch set. Now it just has to use Return. Earthquake deals with Aggron, Focus Punch dents other stuff trying to come in on it.
So thats not an argument. But this isn't about how well it'll do in OU, its about whether or not anything in UU is really going to take it on. I hated facing it in Advance unless I had Misdreavus, and even then Shadow Ball would mess me up on a SubPunch set. Now it just has to use Return. Earthquake deals with Aggron, Focus Punch dents other stuff trying to come in on it.
But hating a good sweeper could be said for anyone, obviously you wouldn't like it when your on the receiving end.
And comparing Raikou to Kangaskhan isn't quite the same thing when you consider Raikou completely overshadows or matches most things in raw stats all round which is more than enough to make up for IV discrepencies. 580 vs 490 makes a world of difference.
Sides its not like you have to use HP Ice, I'd personally give Extrasensory or Shadowball a go. Hidden Power is never really that good a move.
Adamant CB Kangaskhan will take it down with Return. Gligar will never be running a 252 HP/252 Def set. I calculated damage for 252/176 Neutral and it does 54% minimum.
I also did calculations for Walrein with the same spread. CB Focus Punch does 93%, while an Adamant SubPuncher can KO him on average with Focus Punch followed by Return.
I also did calculations for Walrein with the same spread. CB Focus Punch does 93%, while an Adamant SubPuncher can KO him on average with Focus Punch followed by Return.
Just revenge kill it, thats all I can say.
CBKhan is counterable in the same way any other CB user can be countered. Any half decent Rock or Steel (like Probopass) or even Shedinja seeing its being discussed comes in quite easily on the Return. You can predict and F-Punch/EQ but the problem here is prediction works both ways and F-Punch is revenge killable. It'd be a never ending revolving door of scenario x is counterable by action y. CB is an item that in general damages everything so guessing if its in use is a general player related skill so lets just put this aside for now.
If you run non-CB Khan it generally lacks power to OHKO many things anyway so it can be worn down especially with a lack of any resists all it has is its natural bulk to switch in. Other options would be just simply status it, sleep, burn, paralysis anything really slows it down.
Just...common general stuff really.
EDIT: Also forgot Shedinja is immune to F-Punch/EQ to boot CBKhan would have to Crunch with much less power or risk a WoW.
CBKhan is counterable in the same way any other CB user can be countered. Any half decent Rock or Steel (like Probopass) or even Shedinja seeing its being discussed comes in quite easily on the Return. You can predict and F-Punch/EQ but the problem here is prediction works both ways and F-Punch is revenge killable. It'd be a never ending revolving door of scenario x is counterable by action y. CB is an item that in general damages everything so guessing if its in use is a general player related skill so lets just put this aside for now.
If you run non-CB Khan it generally lacks power to OHKO many things anyway so it can be worn down especially with a lack of any resists all it has is its natural bulk to switch in. Other options would be just simply status it, sleep, burn, paralysis anything really slows it down.
Just...common general stuff really.
EDIT: Also forgot Shedinja is immune to F-Punch/EQ to boot CBKhan would have to Crunch with much less power or risk a WoW.
Ice Punch & Scrappy is illegal on Kanga (I think) so you are giving up some Ghost coverage to include it. If you want to hit Gligar hard on a Scrappy set you will have to settle for Avalanche, which may be sufficient, but not sure.
And that's assuming that Gligar is even allowed in UU to be worth worrying about. If not, an Ice move is unnecessary, unless you're really paranoid about Altaria.
I think the furthest the NFE thread got to was Polytree's list of exceptional Pokemon based on three types of distinction, and Gligar wasn't on any of them. However, I don't think there has been any official word as of yet.
Gligar's far from a real counter since Kanga has Ice Punch/Avalanche. Hell, CB Return stands a chance of a 2HKO on even the most defensive Gligar (46.71% - 54.79%).
Solrock is probably a decent candidate for taking Kanga's attacks (max defense/hp takes 25.87% - 30.52% from a CB return), but lacks reliable recovery and takes a lot of damage from a CB Focus Punch (50.58% - 59.59%). The problem, though, is what Solrock's going to do in return; it's strongest option (sans exploding) is Stone Edge off an unboosted 95 base attack, which isn't bad, but it's not the sort of damage that's going to force Kanga to switch out. For the record, CB Iron Tail does 68.02% - 79.94% to Solrock, as well.
I think it is fair to assume that Kanga isn't going to be using Iron Tail as an attack. CB Focus Punch seems extremely risky and I'd never do it personally. I mean, all they gotta do is smack you and you're forced to switch out. I mean hell, Trapinch can defeat a CB Focus Punch Kanga, due to the negative speed priority >_>
Sub / Focus Punch seems far more likely than CB Focus Punch.
UU is the middle tier. NU is the next tier >_> Thats why I brought up the too many BL pokemon thing a while ago... but its too late to do anything really about the huge number of BL pokemon.
Sub / Focus Punch seems far more likely than CB Focus Punch.
UU is the middle tier. NU is the next tier >_> Thats why I brought up the too many BL pokemon thing a while ago... but its too late to do anything really about the huge number of BL pokemon.
I agree, but if Kanga was allowed in UU and Solrock became it's #1 counter, Kanga has a pretty effective way of dealing with it. Worth making a note of IMO.
Though, actually, now that I look again it gets Shadow Claw as well.
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