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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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It gets walled by Amoonguss because if it can't OHKO it, Amoonguss will put it right to sleep and safely eat away at health, and it will be hit by Amoonguss' partner.

Edit: Amoonguss can also heal off whatever damage is done by switching out after sleeping Gyarados
 
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SpaceBass said:
It gets walled by Amoonguss because if it can't OHKO it, Amoonguss will put it right to sleep and safely eat away at health, and it will be hit by Amoonguss' partner.
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I suppose, though 40% is a bit much to take to be called a wall. This really isn't an important distinction though, since either way Amoonguss is a problem for Mega Gyarados.

The problem is all it really has as assets over regular Gyarados are the ability to EQ Rotom-W and resistance to Sucker Punch. It's not really worth your mega slot.
 
gardevoir to tier 2?

its doing pretty good in seasonals *shrug*. idk worth discussing. ally switch and good dual stab and solid base speed, with some pretty decent matchups

i disagree with mgyara being listed, i'd never use it
 
Stratos said:
gardevoir to tier 2?

its doing pretty good in seasonals *shrug*. idk worth discussing. ally switch and good dual stab and solid base speed, with some pretty decent matchups

i disagree with mgyara being listed, i'd never use it
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I was actually also planning on suggesting Gardevoir to Tier 2 near the end of seasonals. I can try to make a much more detailed post for the nomination later tonight
 
I agree with M Garde being tier 2, it also gets Taunt and Wisp which are nice depending on team.

Bulky set works well too, enjoys tailwind and almost requires Intimidate which I could consider as a "Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support."

Will make a more detailed post when I have time.
 
records never lie, even though mega garde is a hit or lose mon in matchups of the big picture (sucks against any team with a metagross or cm cress on it, but owns some bulky teams), it seems to have enough consistency to merit a rank up. To keep this thread up to date, i definitely think seasonal records should play a role when considering mons between two tiers.

Also Mega Gyarados is not viable anymore, straight up. Might even wanna put it in please don't TBH
 
Victini to C

i ran a lot of calcs the other day and its actually way worse than i thought it was, bolt strike cant ohko zard/keld, v-create can't ohko lando at +0, shit like that
 
I'm going to vouch for M-Gyarados to be put in "Please don't." This meta has not been kind to it at all, and gets walled on by a lot of Tier 1 threats, particularly the aforementioned Amoonguss and Keldeo. (Granted, Amoonguss doesn't resist Crunch, but that's all it can do before 'Guss can spore it)

Keldeo, in particular, resists both of its STABs and will be more than happy to obliterate it with Secret Sword. M-Gyara's a classic case of "great in singles, not so much in doubles."
 
can someone tell me how works mew in doubles? i'm pretty new here, once i see a set with WoW + Transform, i think it was really nice, if this is the reason to mew be viable can someone tell me the set?
 
yeh thats basically the only reason mew is viable

mew @ leftovers
timid / modest
252 hp / 252 spe / 4 SpD
- transform
- will o wisp
- fake out
- super fang / protect / ally switch / a million options
 
My two cents on a couple of things:

Virizion for Tier 2.5; like Breloom but trading Speed and bulk for no Spore access. Virizion has Stone Edge which gives it the ability to beat Charizard 1 v 1 if it hits. The LO set can OHKO Heatran, fast Kangaskhan, Charizard, Keldeo, and does tons to Rotom-W as well. Its mildly anti-meta merits definitely deserve to make the tier list.

Entei for Tier 3.0; not that amazing but on some (not many) teams it fits in very well, spreading burns and Snarls around. It can also be a good pick for assisting against sun teams (w/ safety goggles). The lack of use in many matchups leads me to believe it shouldn't be any higher, however.

Gourgeist-S for 2.5ish; alright Trick Room setter with STAB Seed Bomb that has nice physical bulk and Spore immunity. Shallow coverage options on the physical side and a lack of unique support options (unless you like Trick-Or-Treat which kinda isn't that amazing at all) don't get it too far unfortunately.

I also think Clefairy is better than Clefable so thus it should be higher. Friend Guard reduces damage by 25% which is very nice and actually partners really well with set-up attackers as they gain more bulk. Clefable has more power but bulk is arguable since Clefairy has Eviolite, and the lack of power Clefairy has is compensated somewhat by its Helping Hand access.

Why Chandelure is missing is beyond me; definitely in tier 2 for its support options in Trick Room and WoW. It's also a hard counter to Aegislash and has the ability to run offensive sets just as well. I note I am a bit biased as this is one of my favorite pokemon; so I would like to know what other people think about that.
 
Been delaying this for awhile but here are my nominations (massive wall of text as per usual from me)
Mega-Gardevoir to Tier 2 (from Tier 3)
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This is a pokemon that seemed to have a very strong showing in particular in Winter Seasonals, as seen from Level 51's stats where it was brought to 14 games and won 11/14 of them (I was one of the people in these stats so I have a lot to say about it)

When people first look at mega gardevoir they often compare it to sylveon because of their similar movesets, but Gardevoir is Tier 3 right now while Sylveon is Tier 2. These two pokemon both have their strengths and weaknesses. (Below I assume Sylveon uses the common specs set for maximum damage output)

Sylveon Pros: > Damage Output, better natural bulk, Good in Trick Room, Can outspeed base 100-110 in tailwind if you invest enough speed, Not mega
Gardevoir Pros: Outspeeds mid-speed mons without Tailwind and basically the entire meta after tailwind, Can use Protect, can switch moves, Beats Amoonguss

Gardevoir's common set:
Hyper Voice
Psychic / Psyshock
Shadow Ball / HP Ground / Encore / Ally Switch / Focus Blast
Protect

Most people try to downplay gardevoir for occupying the mega slot and its less defensive bulk compared to sylveon but still gardevoir's base 135 spdef is not something to mess around with in terms of taking hits. They both suffer from similar weaknesses in handling steel types but Gardevoir is able to better handle pokemon like Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur. Gardevoirs 3rd move slot has a lot more options than sylveon has. They both share Shadow Ball and HP Ground to hit potentially Heatran, Metagross, and Aegislash but Gardevoir has encore to help with Subtran, Kings Shield on Aegis. Ally Switch is an interesting tech choice esp since it has priority and if Ferrothorn is an extreme issue for a team then Focus Blast is an extremely niche option that is available.

Gardevoir is mainly really able to shine with tailwind and redirection support as it outspeeds the entire metagame and is able to nail it with strong hyper voices. Most offensive threats that take hyper voices for Neutral damage are generally 2HKO'ed while most that take super effective damage are generally OHKO'ed. As for bulky pokemon, Rotom-W is taking around 50% while on the other end Cresselia is taking about 33-40% which is still respectable damage on a bulky mon like that.

Personally I think its fitting for the description of "Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support". I dont think the results of its seasonal success lie.
Virizion to Tier 2.5/3 (from unranked)
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This is a pokemon I have wanted to nominate for awhile. People often look at this pokemon seeing its base 90 atk and immediately dismiss it in favor of the musketeers Keldeo or Terrakion instead. But just as Nollan said I think its a very interesting anti meta pick due to its Grass/Fighting typing both offensively and defensively that the other two may not able to fill in for a team.

Virizion's common set(Life Orb) (Shaian and I prefer the life orb set to give it the respectable damage output that it needs in order to pick up KO's)
Close Combat
Leaf Blade
Stone Edge / Taunt / Quick Guard
Protect

Virizion is interesting as an anti-meta pick for multiple reasons.
1. Landorus-T rock slide + earthquake is unable to threathen it thanks to the resists. Even though Virizion cant do much to Lando-T offensively you are able to freely attack its partner or punish Lando-T switching out if its locked into the wrong move.
2. Heatran and Kang are both outsped and ohko'ed by Life Orb Close Combat by this pokemon. The other two musketeers of Keldeo and Terrakion while on a speed tie with this pokemon are generally scared out since it has a surefire chance to ohko them with Leaf Blade assuming no sash while the other two require prior damage.
3. Rotom-W and other bulky water types are threathened by Stab Leaf Blade which the other musketeers are unable to provide
4. Stone Edge is one of my favorite choices on this pokemon mainly to help deal with Zard Y which keldeo would struggle with but Terrakion can handle
5. Just like any of the other Musketeers, Taunt and Quick Guard are great support options to both shut down pokemon
6. A few people forget about Virizion's natural special bulk of base 129 which is able to tank a few more special hits than people would expect such as Heatran's Heat Wave and Ludicolo Ice Beams.
7. Being Grass type, its unaffected by Spore and Rage Powder unlike Keldeo and Terrakion which hate dealing with Amoonguss and this allows Virizion to freely attack Amoonguss's partner

I think its an interesting meta call on Sun Teams as I have seen Shaian use it previously on one, since it helps deal with common threats to sun such as Water types on Rain teams in the form of Ludicolo and Politoed, but mainly Heatran which is a pokemon that Chlorophyll Venusaur struggles with.

While I dont see it as superior to other high tier threats it does have a niche to be able to fill some missing roles on a team and I believe it suits the description of "good matchups with a few specific top threats (such as Infernape vs Aegislash, Amoonguss, and Kangaskhan or Milotic vs Landorus-T), or because they fulfill a valuable niche on a certain type of team".

EDIT: After reading through the description of Tier 2.5 I feel like it could potentially fit there as well ("Pokemon who can hold their own in the metagame and fit well on certain teams due to their unique matchups, but are not broadly usable for one reason or another."). Nollan also nominated this pokemon for 2.5 which I cant really disagree with given its tools. The Council can make the call here.
Mega-Gallade to Tier 3 (from unranked)
475-mega.png

So this is a pokemon I never truly considered until earlier this week in the middle of making a rain team with TGMD. We were looking for a strong fighting type that helped deal with both Ferrothorn and Amoonguss which are some of rain's biggest nightmares, and while I was looking at the list of fighting types on Bulbapedia Mega Gallade caught my eye.

Dual Stabs of Fighting and Psychic in Close Combat and Zen Headbutt from a base 165 attacker ruin Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and additionally Kyurem-B which is a very common threat to rain. Other than Dual Stabs it has access to interesting support moves that you can modify as you please between Quick Guard, Wide Guard, Ally Switch, as well as running Protect.

Unfortunately during my seasonal match with it I was not able to showcase it in much action since it got ohko'ed on the switch, but I know Tokyo Tom has made good use of it in the previous Winter Seasonal although outside of Rain.

While I think this pokemon has some untapped potential, for now I am merely nominating it for Tier 3 until it gets a big showing as it suits the description of "because they fulfill a valuable niche on a certain type of team" and I dont believe it deserves to be unranked.

Also Stratos add those Mega Sprites ;)
 
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I don't see a Simple Questions thread (may be blind, currently wear really thick glasses) so I figured I'd ask here. Is there a reason Tyranitar is such a poor choice in the current meta? I've been getting a lot more into DOU, it's really a great tier and I wanted to use a mon that I could never find a real use for in singles, Mega Tyranitar.

I've found his usefulness pretty incredible, he's often a win condition. With really good natural bulk, and a wonderful redirection partner with Togekiss, setting up a DD is often pretty trivial. Intimidate obviously bugs him, which is of course everywhere in the meta, but the DD is more 75% for the speed than the attack. Even then, getting off two is hardly that difficult with the switches he forces, as well as Togekiss's bulk itself. Rock Slide is probably the best move in the meta, so having STAB Rock Slide off a monstrous attack has been a blast. And additionally, the mega form also having Sand Stream has been a huge blessing as well, nullifying Rain and Sun alike when timed correctly.

So I think I am missing something big here, or perhaps am simply playing to poor players to discern correctly.

edit:

shaian said:
why tyrantar is more tyranitar -
1 : is so good and sandy
2 : good for sanding
3 : an excadrill can make it a speed
4 : green is colour of MONEY, terakion doesnt exist in currency
5 : you can throw it out, sand and make battle sauid arab
6 : is MORE tyrantar than terakion
7 : is good for smothie stone
8 : child friendly
9 : looks like dinosaurus ; not lame, dinosaurus are dominant and serperior "terakion are not dinosaurus and they stupid" - jay c.
10 : terkaion is rocks type. Tyrantar is rocks too but tyrantar is not a fucker

tyrantar for tier 1
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I saw this post on the front page, and obviously the point is saying that Terrakion is better choice. I definitely see why Terrakion is a better choice than regular Tyranitar, the immediate speed and power is certainly what you'd want, but I think Mega Tyranitar plays differently. Terrakion can SD and RP, but doesn't have a DD option, and the smaller amount of bulk means he often can't take a hit to get the DD up if necessary, or in the middle of an attempted sweep.
 
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teal6 said:
I don't see a Simple Questions thread (may be blind, currently wear really thick glasses) so I figured I'd ask here. Is there a reason Tyranitar is such a poor choice in the current meta? I've been getting a lot more into DOU, it's really a great tier and I wanted to use a mon that I could never find a real use for in singles, Mega Tyranitar.

I've found his usefulness pretty incredible, he's often a win condition. With really good natural bulk, and a wonderful redirection partner with Togekiss, setting up a DD is often pretty trivial. Intimidate obviously bugs him, which is of course everywhere in the meta, but the DD is more 75% for the speed than the attack. Even then, getting off two is hardly that difficult with the switches he forces, as well as Togekiss's bulk itself. Rock Slide is probably the best move in the meta, so having STAB Rock Slide off a monstrous attack has been a blast. And additionally, the mega form also having Sand Stream has been a huge blessing as well, nullifying Rain and Sun alike when timed correctly.

So I think I am missing something big here, or perhaps am simply playing to poor players to discern correctly.

edit:



I saw this post on the front page, and obviously the point is saying that Terrakion is better choice. I definitely see why Terrakion is a better choice than regular Tyranitar, the immediate speed and power is certainly what you'd want, but I think Mega Tyranitar plays differently. Terrakion can SD and RP, but doesn't have a DD option, and the smaller amount of bulk means he often can't take a hit to get the DD up if necessary, or in the middle of an attempted sweep.
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the reasons why ttar is bad in this meta are fairly simple:
intimidate, fighting types, eq lando-t absolutely fucks it up, kangaskhan, diancie, sylveon, azumarill, thundurus, keldeo, and most importantly metagross-m. all of these things are found at least like twice on every team but all of these things completely destroy it, it requires very heavy support to actually get up due to all of this, and mega ttar is worse because you can't use kangaskhan/diancie/metagross/zard y.

also other weathers fuck it up with the exception of hail but that's mainly used in tr which still fucks up dragon dance. it was so cool in bw but now it's not that great :(

edit: and if you were wondering about terrakion's viability over it terrakion outspeeds and ohkos kangaskhan zard y and abomasnow (not useful but just kinda cool), doesnt chip its own teammates with sand, and also can switch out more often than a dd ttar. also ttar doesnt get rock slide flinches and terrak does.
 
teal6 said:
I don't see a Simple Questions thread (may be blind, currently wear really thick glasses) so I figured I'd ask here. Is there a reason Tyranitar is such a poor choice in the current meta? I've been getting a lot more into DOU, it's really a great tier and I wanted to use a mon that I could never find a real use for in singles, Mega Tyranitar.

I've found his usefulness pretty incredible, he's often a win condition. With really good natural bulk, and a wonderful redirection partner with Togekiss, setting up a DD is often pretty trivial. Intimidate obviously bugs him, which is of course everywhere in the meta, but the DD is more 75% for the speed than the attack. Even then, getting off two is hardly that difficult with the switches he forces, as well as Togekiss's bulk itself. Rock Slide is probably the best move in the meta, so having STAB Rock Slide off a monstrous attack has been a blast. And additionally, the mega form also having Sand Stream has been a huge blessing as well, nullifying Rain and Sun alike when timed correctly.

So I think I am missing something big here, or perhaps am simply playing to poor players to discern correctly.
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ive actually not seen probably a single mega tar since probably january 2014 but dd mega tar sounds like it might be not awful, next time you catch me on pokemon showdown challenge me w/ that team please, im interested

basically tar is bad because lando-t is so good and basically everything that works against lando-t works against tar and then some so every team has a million things that just straight up beat tar. Rock is really good, but most sets of tar are just a worse rak/mdiancie because the extra bulk is pretty negligible when you're swimming in weaknesses. however, jolly mega dd interests me because at +1 it outspeeds mgar which is cool, of course you still have lando-t troubles but it doesn't seem unsolvable, but my main question is is rock slide really powerful enough that you can effectively sweep with it. i think mdiancie is probably generally more useful but idk. it doesn't sound too good unless u can harness the power of flinches, but it also doesn't sound absolutely horrible.
 
Stratos said:
ive actually not seen probably a single mega tar since probably january 2014 but dd mega tar sounds like it might be not awful, next time you catch me on pokemon showdown challenge me w/ that team please, im interested
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Will do, and thank you for your responses guys. I am always fully prepared to admit I'm wrong on something like this, particularly because the entirety of my DOU experience thus far is limited to the ladder and two rounds of the Summer Seasonal lol.
 
As it turns out, Mega Tyranitar is pretty damn good at sweeping lol

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Mega Tyranitar for Tier 3
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Fighting-types are on the decline and Lando-T is overrated, and it's not like they can't be covered with your five other teammates (four if you use Excadrill, which is also good). It's bulky as fuck, taking a Modest Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice in Sand with no investment whatsoever, and after a Dragon Dance it's pretty terrifying. Outrunning Skymin and OHKOing it (fuck Sash! Sand!) is also solid.

basically a 100% win against sun too lol
 
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