Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

[BenTheDemon]

Don't use this:

Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
-Adamant Nature
-252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Extremespeed

This is the Standard Dragonite set, and for good reason. However, if Weakness Policy isn't activated, Multiscale will be broken with no way to restore it.

Instead use this:

Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
-Adamant Nature
-252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Roost

Why it's better: Although this set cannot hit Togekiss, it's not that common anyway. As I've always said, Excadrill is Dragonite's best friend, Spinning and killing off Fairies.
Roost has given me tons of success. I mean, Multiscale was made for this! Also, Roosting removes your Flying type, so if someone wants to hit you with an Ice move after breaking Multiscale, you can Roost right in their face and get the Weakness Policy boost! And at +1 Speed, Dragonite doesn't really need Extremespeed anymore.

 

[Nubbins]

ES allows dragonite to beat talonflame, which is a lot of team's only answer to any statup sweeper.

 

[sidakarya]

I don't know about giving up Extremespeed, it really is a treasure. Without it, you have to worry about things like Scarfchomp and Talonflame, and you have no guarantee, that you'll always have Multiscale up to soak a hit.

 

[skies]

I'm not going to write up a huge thing, but on common Scarfers, don't waste EVs! What are you trying to outspeed after Deoxys-Speed? Only other Scarfers, which you'll already know if you outspeed from their Base Speeds. For instance, Scarf Keldeo. Scarf Keldeo literally only needs 4 Spe EVs with a Modest Nature to outspeed Deoxys-Speed. You can then input all that into HP, look:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

This is really just personal preference, as 252/252+ is fine imo, but I just prefer to hit 253 Speed, as that's all you'll really be needing in my honest opinion.

 

[Zebstrika]

Scarfers that run max speed are often to outspeed other +1s like stuff after a dragon dance. But it is nice to keep in mind if you use a scarfer with high base speed, where you actually should be drawing the line with the EVs

 

[Magnemite]

I'm not going to write up a huge thing, but on common Scarfers, don't waste EVs! What are you trying to outspeed after Deoxys-Speed? Only other Scarfers, which you'll already know if you outspeed from their Base Speeds. For instance, Scarf Keldeo. Scarf Keldeo literally only needs 4 Spe EVs with a Modest Nature to outspeed Deoxys-Speed. You can then input all that into HP, look:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

This is really just personal preference, as 252/252+ is fine imo, but I just prefer to hit 253 Speed, as that's all you'll really be needing in my honest opinion.

Wouldn't you want to be able to outspeed or tie with other scarfers / +1 Speed setup sweepers? The point of a scarfer is to outspeed and revenge boosted threats, not just unboosted ones.

 

[skies]

Wouldn't you want to be able to outspeed or tie with other scarfers / +1 Speed setup sweepers? The point of a scarfer is to outspeed and revenge boosted threats, not just unboosted ones.

I know, but for anybody just looking to get faster, then I am saying you don't always need to fully invest in Speed.

 

[Mowtom]

When I used a scarfed Latios as my revenge killer, I had him had max speed with a Timid nature to outspeed Shell Smash Cloyster...BY ONE POINT. I'd say sometimes max speed is necessary.

 

[Piconoe]

I see Cloyster up at the top of the OP. Has someone suggested a better alternative for him yet? (And this is not to sound snarky, I am legitimate when saying this) I'd love to hear what could be a better set-up sweeper than one that has access to two 125 base damage moves (one of them being a STAB) with a nice 75 STAB to round out coverage and a move that doubles Atk and Spe. If someone fills that niche better than him, I'd like to get in on a piece of that droolworthy action. Only one that I can think of that'd do the job better is Blaziken, and we all know why I can't use him instead.

 

[Magnemite]

I see Cloyster up at the top of the OP. Has someone suggested a better alternative for him yet? (And this is not to sound snarky, I am legitimate when saying this) I'd love to hear what could be a better set-up sweeper than one that has access to two 125 base damage moves (one of them being a STAB) with a nice 75 STAB to round out coverage and a move that doubles Atk and Spe. If someone fills that niche better than him, I'd like to get in on a piece of that droolworthy action. Only one that I can think of that'd do the job better is Blaziken, and we all know why I can't use him instead.

Cloyster isn't entirely outclassed by anything in particular (though it's partially outclassed by Kyurem-B and Mamoswine as an Ice-type, and by Manaphy and Gyarados as a Water-type sweeper), however, this doesn't really change the fact that it's a terrible Pokemon in the OU metagame. While I agree it's not the best example for this thread, it's still really bad. The reason I have the Pokemon at the top of the OP that I do is because I used the four Pokemon from the top of the BW OU version of this thread and replaced Vaporeon and Jolteon (which are no longer OU) with two current OU Pokemon, Donphan and Espeon.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Cloyster isn't entirely outclassed by anything in particular (though it's partially outclassed by Kyurem-B and Mamoswine as an Ice-type, and by Manaphy as a Water-type sweeper), however, this doesn't really change the fact that it's a terrible Pokemon in the OU metagame. While I agree it's not the best example for this thread, it's still really bad. The reason I have the Pokemon at the top of the OP that I do is because I used the four Pokemon from the top of the BW OU version of this thread and replaced Vaporeon and Jolteon (which are no longer OU) with two current OU Pokemon, Donphan and Espeon.

None of those pokemon have much of anything in common. Cloyster is actually a decent setup sweeper, but it's problem would be special attackers, priority users, and steel types like aegislash. It's one niche is still its ability to beat focus sash users which honestly can be taken care of just as easily with rocks in all but Alakazam's case. However, focus sash variants can also take on any and all Dragonite and almost all Cloyster can take out things like Gliscor or Trevenant that like to sit behind subs. In fact, I ran a banded Cloyster variant to take out these two threats when Trevenant and Gliscor were becoming incredibly popular for whatever reason. However, Cloyster just doesn't hit hard enough even with massive boosts to beat the majority of teams and is very difficult to set up at any point in a match which is why it is considered bad.

 

[Piconoe]

Cloyster isn't entirely outclassed by anything in particular (though it's partially outclassed by Kyurem-B and Mamoswine as an Ice-type, and by Manaphy as a Water-type sweeper), however, this doesn't really change the fact that it's a terrible Pokemon in the OU metagame. While I agree it's not the best example for this thread, it's still really bad. The reason I have the Pokemon at the top of the OP that I do is because I used the four Pokemon from the top of the BW OU version of this thread and replaced Vaporeon and Jolteon (which are no longer OU) with two current OU Pokemon, Donphan and Espeon.

As someone who (despite playing consistently Gen I and playing other games competitively) is new to the Pokemon competitive scene, would you mind enlightening me as to why he's so bad and how they outclass him? Is it the fact that they're more beefy as a trade-off to the raw damage, which adds up over time due to them being able to stay out longer?

 

[Jukain]

Don't use this:

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Wish / Heal Bell / Stealth Rock

Standard Blissey set, not much to say.
Instead, use:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Wish / Heal Bell / Stealth Rock

Same set as Blissey.

Why it's better: Blissey is completely outclassed by Chansey. Why? Well, the biggest thing is that Chansey has better special bulk, AND gains the equivalent of 100/100 Defense with Eviolite, making it a better special wall and allowing it to function as a mixed wall. Blissey's inability to work as a mixed wall means that it is an opportunity cost not to use Chansey. Common reasons people say Blissey is better:

- Knock Off: Every stall team has Mega Venu to take Knock Offs, and Pokemon like Rocky Helmet Skarm and walls with reliable recovery don't mind it that much. Chansey is not the switch-in to Knock Off users, generally, and neither is Blissey, which takes a lot from Knock Offs and is utterly destroyed by most Knock Off users. Plus, Chansey isn't even much less bulky than Blissey with its item gone. Insane bulk w/ Eviolite (which you should have 99% of the time) > minds Knock Off slightly less.

Same with Blissey and Chansey. Chansey has more bulk and is in general the best option true, however Blissey is better in sand teams and fares much better against Volt-turn teams due to the passive recovery, which means that it's not so easy to wear down as Chansey, especially with conjuction with Protect.

Chansey is a stall Pokemon. Sand stall is non-existent this gen: even Hippo runs Sand Force, and TTar is not a thing on stall anymore. VoltTurn is kinda a thing, but Chansey's higher bulk means it takes U-turns/Volt Switches much better anyways, offsetting the damage.

Chansey is what you see on SPL stall teams, not Blissey. Why? Blissey is plain outclassed.

 

[Magnemite]

As someone who (despite playing consistently Gen I and playing other games competitively) is new to the Pokemon competitive scene, would you mind enlightening me as to why he's so bad and how they outclass him? Is it the fact that they're more beefy as a trade-off to the raw damage, which adds up over time due to them being able to stay out longer?

Cloyster has pitiful special bulk and an awful defensive typing, so there's very little it can actually set up on. (It gets 2HKOed by defensive Politoed of all things, and that's on a resisted hit) In addition, the defense drops from Shell Smash and its slowness even at +2 Speed make it very easy to revenge kill, especially in this priority-heavy metagame. Cloyster also has trouble breaking through common Steel-types and outright loses to many of the top Pokemon in the metagame, such as Aegislash, Thundurus-I, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Talonflame with a bit of prior damage, and literally almost every single special attacker in OU. There's very little it can set up on, and even after set-up, it still loses to common Pokemon. Its base 180 Defense may seem to grant it many setup opportunities, but its awful defensive typing and pitiful base 50 HP stop it from setting up on strong physical attackers.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Don't use this:

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Wish / Heal Bell / Stealth Rock

Standard Blissey set, not much to say.
Instead, use:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Wish / Heal Bell / Stealth Rock

Same set as Blissey.

Why it's better: Blissey is completely outclassed by Chansey. Why? Well, the biggest thing is that Chansey has better special bulk, AND gains the equivalent of 100/100 Defense with Eviolite, making it a better special wall and allowing it to function as a mixed wall. Blissey's inability to work as a mixed wall means that it is an opportunity cost not to use Chansey. Common reasons people say Blissey is better:

- Knock Off: Every stall team has Mega Venu to take Knock Offs, and Pokemon like Rocky Helmet Skarm and walls with reliable recovery don't mind it that much. Chansey is not the switch-in to Knock Off users, generally, and neither is Blissey, which takes a lot from Knock Offs and is utterly destroyed by most Knock Off users. Plus, Chansey isn't even much less bulky than Blissey with its item gone. Insane bulk w/ Eviolite (which you should have 99% of the time) > minds Knock Off slightly less.

Chansey is a stall Pokemon. Sand stall is non-existent this gen: even Hippo runs Sand Force, and TTar is not a thing on stall anymore. VoltTurn is kinda a thing, but Chansey's higher bulk means it takes U-turns/Volt Switches much better anyways, offsetting the damage.

Chansey is what you see on SPL stall teams, not Blissey. Why? Blissey is plain outclassed.

Hold on, are you honestly trying to tell me that Hippo would run Sand Force on a stall team? Do you actually understand that you need a sand storm for Sand Force to even do anything for hippo? And yes, Chansey is not the Poke to switch into knock off, but with how prevalent knock off is this gen, can you really predict every knock off?

 

[Jukain]

Hold on, are you honestly trying to tell me that Hippo would run Sand Force on a stall team? Do you actually understand that you need a sand storm for Sand Force to even do anything for hippo? And yes, Chansey is not the Poke to switch into knock off, but with how prevalent knock off is this gen, can you really predict every knock off?

no it runs sand force because sand stream is detrimental to mega venu, moonlight clefable, etc. it is a dud ability, the point is not to run sand stream.

and yeah, you can tell a possible knock off user when you see it, and pick the appropriate response. knock off pokemon tend to be physical anyways, so blissey isn't liking taking them. clefable/mega venu/zapdos/skarm/whatever is enough so that chan shouldn't have to take knock offs.

 

[Subject 18]

Hold on, are you honestly trying to tell me that Hippo would run Sand Force on a stall team? Do you actually understand that you need a sand storm for Sand Force to even do anything for hippo? And yes, Chansey is not the Poke to switch into knock off, but with how prevalent knock off is this gen, can you really predict every knock off?

Not only on stall teams, it does so for balance / bulky offense. If you have a Mega Venusaur on your team you can't have Synthesis being crippled by sand. It's not like Hippowdon needs to use Sand Force or Sand Stream to be effective. For example: Masterclass v Papai Noel from Week 5 of SPL. Masterclass has is using a Sand Force Hippowdon for the very reason that Jukain stated above.

 

[Piconoe]

Cloyster has pitiful special bulk and an awful defensive typing, so there's very little it can actually set up on. (It gets 2HKOed by defensive Politoed of all things, and that's on a resisted hit) In addition, the defense drops from Shell Smash and its slowness even at +2 Speed make it very easy to revenge kill, especially in this priority-heavy metagame. Cloyster also has trouble breaking through common Steel-types and outright loses to many of the top Pokemon in the metagame, such as Aegislash, Thundurus-I, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Talonflame with a bit of prior damage, and literally almost every single special attacker in OU. There's very little it can set up on, and even after set-up, it still loses to common Pokemon. Its base 180 Defense may seem to grant it many setup opportunities, but its awful defensive typing and pitiful base 50 HP stop it from setting up on strong physical attackers.

Aaaaah. I get you. I've been having grand times setting up and moderate success with a single Shell Smash + Razor Shell taking out any Steel-Types not made neutral to one of the other moves via its second typing (ex: Scizor VS Rock/Skarmory VS Ice), but I suppose that must have been before the meta took form/I was just facing bad people? I've been able to tank super effective physical STABs and sweep half the team before eating it but this was back when the game first came out.

So, not for its typings (you gave Kyurem-B and Vaporeon as examples), but for its place as a speedy physical set-up sweeper, who would you suggest as a Don't Use That Use This?

 

[NotSoClutch]

Not only on stall teams, it does so for balance / bulky offense. If you have a Mega Venusaur on your team you can't have Synthesis being crippled by sand. It's not like Hippowdon needs to use Sand Force or Sand Stream to be effective. For example: Masterclass v Papai Noel from Week 5 of SPL. Masterclass has is using a Sand Force Hippowdon for the very reason that Jukain stated above.

If you guys say so. I exclusively use sand stall as my stall team of choice without M-Venusaur, so I don't really know what popular stall looks like right now.

 

[Fennekin]

- People using DD Zygarde without ESpeed

To be honest, I never understood the point of ESpeed+DD Zygarde. I mean sure it does let you win (sorta) against weakened Azumarill, but that's about it. Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Scizor, and other priority users don't actually give a shit about ExtremeSpeed after Dragon Dance. Sure, there's many cute hypothetical scenarios, but in pratice, it's frothing shit.

..Sorry, just needed to vent that out.

Edit: inb4 Talonflame. Seriously, Extremespeed doesn't even KO after Stealth Rock.

 

[mrglass]

Reading through all of the Espeon vs. Xatu arguments and I'd like to make a few points of my own.

1. Xatu is not more bulky than Espeon
65/70/70 is not better than 65/60/95. It's slightly more passable physically, but all of Xatu's defensive stats need investment to be useful. On the other hand, a base 95 Sp. Def stat is respectable, and with HP and Def investment, Espeon can take hits much better.
2. Roost isn't much better than Morning Sun this gen
Last gen, with permanent weather and the lack of a decent sun setter, Morning Sun was somewhat of a liability. This gen, not only is the duration of weather limited, Sun is the 2nd most common weather condition thanks to Mega-Charizard Y. You also have to consider that Espeon gets a free escape from Tyranitar in the form of Baton Pass
3. Magic Bounce is an unreliable way to keep away hazards this gen
With Defog around and several powerful hazard setters, you really have no reason to be relying on Espeon, Xatu, or Absol to stop hazards. It can be used situationally, but the real use for Magic Bounce this gen is for status moves. Magic Bouncers are able to completely shut down the likes of Blissey and Klefki. While also being useful for deterring status users in general. Last gen, I used Espeon on every team I had, it was something of my signature pokemon. This gen, I have yet to keep it on a single team, and when I do use it, it's for status removal.
4. Espeon gets Grass Knot too.
I sort of chuckled a bit at the post that gave calculations of Espeon's Psychic vs. Xatu's Grass Knot. Espeon learns Grass Knot, so that's a non-issue. The one key offensive move Xatu learns that Espeon doesn't is Heat Wave.

I did see some good points made that I haven't seen before in that Xatu can switch into EQ, but I think it's poor stats limit it's usage compared to Espeon

 

[Fennekin]

^ Not trying to start a fire or anything, but Xatu does get two nifty things over Espeon: Heat Wave (way better than the shitty HP Fire and 30 Speed) + U-Turn (arguably better than Dry Passing in some situations). Not saying Xatu is better, but still notable.

 

[mrglass]

Don't use that

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP/ 252 Def/ 8 SDef
Calm/Bold Nature
-Scald
-Wish
-Protect
-Heal Bell

While Wish makes Vaporeon a decent cleric, as a status clearer, it falls short. With this set, Vaporeon must rely on Scald to threaten opponents, which is often insufficient, and allows opponents to either set up or switch something in that completely walls you, forcing you to switch.

Use this:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Calm/Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Swagger/Confuse Ray
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell

If you want a Water-type status clearer, Lanturn is the better option. While its defensive stats aren't as good as Vaporeon's, it has access to Volt Switch, Thunder Wave, and confusion inducing moves, such that it's not set up fodder. Swagger or Confuse Ray put pressure on your opponent to switch, while Thunder Wave gives you a speed advantage and cripples sweepers.

Note: This is strictly for the role of a status clearing water type. If you need a wishpasser, obviously Lanturn isn't useful, and if you need a bulky offensive water type, Rotom-W is better.

 

[Ketsuban]

Don't use that:

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Fire Punch / Magic Coat / Superpower

Why it's bad: With the amount of priority flying around suicide leads have a tough time of it, and Deoxys-S in particular is too frail to survive just about anything; it fell to UU for a time, which should be a good indicator that something is afoot. While it's guaranteed to get up Stealth Rock and perhaps a layer of Spikes, it won't get up much more than that and it pays for it with its life; with the newly buffed Defog increasing the number of Pokémon capable of removing hazards, intentionally ditching your hazard setter puts you at a disadvantage.

Use this:

Deoxys-Defense @ Red Card / Mental Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave / Magic Coat

Why it's better: Deoxys-D can take a beating, which means it gets up more of its entry hazards than Deoxys-S is capable of and can even survive to set more in the future. It doesn't need offenses - that's what the rest of your team is for. If you're bothered by Taunt anti-leads, use Magic Coat and Red Card; if you're not, use Thunder Wave and Mental Herb.

 

[Spoderman]

Don't use that:

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Fire Punch / Magic Coat / Superpower

Why it's bad: With the amount of priority flying around suicide leads have a tough time of it, and Deoxys-S in particular is too frail to survive just about anything; it fell to UU for a time, which should be a good indicator that something is afoot. While it's guaranteed to get up Stealth Rock and perhaps a layer of Spikes, it won't get up much more than that and it pays for it with its life; with the newly buffed Defog increasing the number of Pokémon capable of removing hazards, intentionally ditching your hazard setter puts you at a disadvantage.

Use this:

Deoxys-Defense @ Red Card / Mental Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave / Magic Coat

Why it's better: Deoxys-D can take a beating, which means it gets up more of its entry hazards than Deoxys-S is capable of and can even survive to set more in the future. It doesn't need offenses - that's what the rest of your team is for. If you're bothered by Taunt anti-leads, use Magic Coat and Red Card; if you're not, use Thunder Wave and Mental Herb.

This is all fine but, why mental herb? Deoxys can't be infatuated anyway and even if it could, it's so uncommon, it's kind of useless. I would recomond leftovers/redcard as these are it's two best items. Never mind it cures taunt as well