Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Doing this because I'm really amazed this Pokemon even manages to clock 2% usage:

Don't Use This:

059.png

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Flare Blitz
- ExtremeSpeed
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge

Basically took a look at the moveset statistics to see what the most common set was. Anyways, the fact that this thing manages to even get 2% usage is astonishing. I can see the appeal this thing has; it has a nice Attack stat, a somewhat usable Speed, and okay bulk along with good coverage. However, this isn't enough to justify using Arcanine over any Fire-type available. It can hit fairly hard, but it's a lackluster choice compared to other Fire-types available, especially Entei, Infernape, Mega Charizard X, etc. Yes, it has Close Combat and Wild Charge for Rock- and Water-types, but that isn't something the other Fire-types can't do (other than Talonflame I guess). Intimidate is cool, but not so much on Arcanine, since its defensive typing is rather poor, and most physical attackers have a way to hit it really hard.

Instead, use:

I could make a whole list here but I shouldn't because Arcanine is outclassed by so many things. In other words, if you want a Fire-type, there are plenty of other choices that are better than it. Entei has Sacred Fire, and the high burn chance is neat, while it also has the lovely ExtremeSpeed that Arcanine has. Infernape has good power and Close Combat, making it a better Pokemon than Arcanine in every way. There's also Mega Charizard X, who has Outrage and Dragon Dance along with Tough Claws so it's much more lethal than Arcanine. Talonflame has Gale Wings Brave Bird and U-turn and its revenge killing role makes it a better mon than Arcanine. You should probably get my point by now. There is simply no reason to use Arcanine over any of these Fire-types in OU. Everything Arcanine does, something else can already accomplish or even do it better.
 
2% usage isn't even OU though. So it's not really necessary to make a post talking about why you shouldn't use arcanine at all. I mean, umbreon and metagross currently have higher usage than he does and I don't see anybody mentioning them in this topic.
 
a_dollar said:
I cant believe you say chansey is better than Blissey, Almost every team has something with knock off and to me the small amount of added bulk is not worth it when your chansey gets hit with a knock off and becomes completely useless. with the amount of switching in chansey needs to do its pretty easy to get a knock off on it or if they anticipate what you are going to do then something else loses an item anyway. Sure this is true in most cases but chansey is laughable without the eviolite
Click to expand...
Uhh no. Chansey's physical bulk is leaps and bounds ahead of blissey to the point where it can serve as a decent answer to mixed wallbreakers and even some physical attackers without a boosting move.

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
About 35% physically bulkier than blissey. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Chansey has it's fair share of flaws but it's not outclassed by blissey. Personally I think both are terrible outside of hard stall teams though. But chansey scares me more than blissey if I see it on team preview.
 
Don't use:
127-m.png

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter / Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Return
- Close Combat

While Close Combat may seem like a good coverage move for Pinsir on paper, it pales in practice. Sure, you can hit Skarmory harder and get past Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Heatran, Magnezone, and Rotom-W, but Rotom-W gets 2HKO'd to a boosted Return anyway, Ferrothorn is 2HKO'd or sometimes OHKO'd by Return, Tyranitar does not want to switch into Pinsir for fear of the better coverage move, Heatran and Magnezone lose their Air Balloons if they switch in an attack, and Skarmory is better taken care of by Pinsir's teammates. The fact that Close Combat is used on 30% of Pinsir means an unexplainable trend. Also, Pinsir's Close Combat cannot even OHKO Skarmory while Skarmory can just Brave Bird it to the dust.

Use this instead:
127-m.png

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter / Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Return
- Earthquake

Earthquake is the superior option on Pinsir. You absolutely need it to not get checked by Aegislash, and Close Combat essentially gives Aegislash a free switch-in, which you do not want. While you lose coverage on Skarmory, Pinsir's not gonna beat Skarmory anyway. Another merit of Earthquake is that you keep your defenses, unlike Close Combat, which forces you to switch out for fear of revenge killers. Also, Mega Aggron can use Close Combat to sacrifice itself to get a priority user in safely. and let's not forget to mention Pinsir's 4x rock weakness hinders its survivability.
 
Aquaslash said:
Thanks for completely confirming everything I just said. It's all about the Pixelate Hyper Voice and little more.
Click to expand...
It's because there's little to discuss. "Florges wins in everything except HP" is factually incorrect: it has advantages in four stats, two of which are trivial and for which Sylveon ultimately performs better anyway through its other attributes.
 
It's not just Pixilate Hyper Voice that makes Sylveon superior to Florges. That higher HP is a very relevant advantage over Florges; since they both aim to Wish pass, a high HP is definitely a plus, and Sylveon provides notably larger Wishes than Florges. This also offsets any bulk advantage Florges may seem to have on paper; for reference, since Sylveon has higher HP, it has greater physical bulk than Florges, and due to the HP difference their special bulk is about the same. Also, Pixilate Hyper Voice is much stronger than Moonblast. Here, I'll give you some calcs.

252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 139-165 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I just used Krookodile as an example, but this shows that Sylveon is slightly bulkier physically, and either way the damage output against them is incredibly similar.

+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 159-187 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, while Florges is slightly bulkier on the special side than Sylveon, the damage output between them is nonetheless similar, which makes everything irrelevant.

Not that I plan to spark up anything but I wanted to turn down that argument.
 
Honestly guys, keep your personal preferences out of this thread please. It's adding nothing to the discussion, and it's just derailing the thread. People can still use whatever they want regardless of whether or not it's considered "outclassed" or not, nothing's stopping you. There's always going to be SOMETHING about a Pokemon that makes it different from another, but that doesn't neccesarily give you the right to say that someone's nomination is "unfair". Sure Donphan has a few things going for it that Excadrill doesn't have, but when it comes down to it, Excadrill is always going to be the superior choice due to its higher Speed, useful typing, power, and abilities. Just keep your personal preferences to yourself, and allow players who care more about competitive viability than favoritism to continue on with the thread.

I had this issue when I hosted this thread during BW2, and it almost ruined the entire project, so I'd just like to address this concern again so Magnemite doesn't have to deal with this shit like I did. Don't respond to this post please.
 
Last edited:
Aquaslash said:
Actually Florges beats Sylveon in everything except HP. I'm starting to really think that the entire buzz about Sylveon boils down to pixelate hyper voice.
Click to expand...
Sylveon Higher HP makes it bulkier physically as well as granting it bigger wishes for team support:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

For Special bulk they have pretty much the same amount of bulk
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges in Sun: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Speed is pretty irrelevant because the only slow non defensive mon it can outpeed that Sylveon can't is standard Mawile, and well...you guessed it, Florges can't do shit to that. And for the teams they would fit better in, taking out this thing
646-black.gif
when it is behind a sub is amazing.

The only reason to use Florges over Sylveon is you play ingame and never owned/downloaded a pokemon black/white 2 to get one with hyper voice or can't find someone to trade for it.

bs scraftyisthebest2fast4me
 
Last edited:
ScraftyIsTheBest said:
It's not just Pixilate Hyper Voice that makes Sylveon superior to Florges. That higher HP is a very relevant advantage over Florges; since they both aim to Wish pass, a high HP is definitely a plus, and Sylveon provides notably larger Wishes than Florges. This also offsets any bulk advantage Florges may seem to have on paper; for reference, since Sylveon has higher HP, it has greater physical bulk than Florges, and due to the HP difference their special bulk is about the same. Also, Pixilate Hyper Voice is much stronger than Moonblast. Here, I'll give you some calcs.

252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 139-165 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I just used Krookodile as an example, but this shows that Sylveon is slightly bulkier physically, and either way the damage output against them is incredibly similar.

+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 159-187 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, while Florges is slightly bulkier on the special side than Sylveon, the damage output between them is nonetheless similar, which makes everything irrelevant.

Not that I plan to spark up anything but I wanted to turn down that argument.
Click to expand...

These don't really seem like enormous differences to me (like everyone makes them out to be). At least not enormous enough to justify all the shade that people like to throw at Florges.

EDIT: While I have the last post here, I'll mention that I would like to see a post explaining SD Brave Aegis vs the Quiet Natured mixed attacking one. SD Aegis is deadly, yes, but it also has predictability issues.
 
Last edited:
Don't use this:
135.png

Jolteon @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ice / Signal Beam

Why it's bad: With many Pokemon introduced, revamped, or brought back to OU, most with far better stats, abilities, and movepools than seen before, Jolteon's main niche, a fast 130 base speed, is no longer as exclusive as it was before. Furthermore, the lack of permanent rain has severely undermined Jolteon's power by preventing it from spamming Thunder. With a severely lacking base 110 Special Attack, extremely thin defenses, and one of the worst STABs to be locked into, Jolteon can no longer find a place in OU, and using it is often only a liability to the rest of your team.

Instead, use this:
672.png

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Naive Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast / U-turn
- Hidden Power Ice / U-turn

Why it's better: Thundurus carries not only a substantially higher Special Attack stat, but an arguably superior typing that gives it far better of a matchup against the Ground-types that typically wall Jolteon. Thanks to Prankster, Thundurus can more than make up for its slightly lower speed in comparison to Jolteon by being able to utilize a priority Thunder Wave, allowing it to outspeed even the fastest of attackers. With just two attacks Thundurus can attain near-perfect coverage, and still have room for either another coverage move or the momentum-grabbing U-turn. With a powerful Focus Blast, Thundurus is not plagued by common special walls such as Heatran and Tyranitar. With a jaw-dropping array of options ranging from priority Taunt to physically based Defiant + Bulk Up sets, Thundurus is also many times more flexible than Jolteon and can easily fill a number of roles.

Conclusion:

If you're looking for a fast, powerful, and adaptable Electric-type attacker, look no more to Jolteon and instead embrace Thundurus. With better stats, typing, and a movepool that Jolteon would die for, Thundurus fulfills all of the roles that Jolteon does and much, much more. Overall, Thundurus brings to the battle field a much more threatening presence that can affect the whole tier.
 
Aquaslash said:
These don't really seem like enormous differences to me (like everyone makes them out to be). At least not enormous enough to justify all the shade that people like to throw at Florges.

EDIT: While I have the last post here, I'll mention that I would like to see a post explaining SD Brave Aegis vs the Quiet Natured mixed attacking one. SD Aegis is deadly, yes, but it also has predictability issues.
Click to expand...
When the gains are pretty much free, it's silly to throw them away.

Between this mention of Aegislash and the stuff about Pinsir earlier, I think people are misunderstanding the point of this thread. As established in the first post, this is not a place for comparing a Pokemon's own sets; it's for comparing between different Pokemon with similar roles. There are other places for that, particularly the Pokemon's own threads.
 
Aquaslash said:
These don't really seem like enormous differences to me (like everyone makes them out to be). At least not enormous enough to justify all the shade that people like to throw at Florges.
Click to expand...

I just fail to see any meaningful advantage that Florges might have over Sylveon. Sylveon takes physical hits better, passes bigger wishes and hits harder. Florges has a few useless coverage moves and slightly higher speed that is still pretty insignificant. Florges might have that absurdly high special defense stat, but the difference between 78/154 and 93/130 is really minimal.
 
Just saying on the Donphan thing, that was retarded for more reasons than just suggesting to use Donphan at all.

Donphan is a (bad) defensive spinner, and Excadrill is usually an offensive spinner. The only real exception to this is Assault Vest Excadrill, which is bulky because it has fat HP and obviously Assault Vest to back it up. Comparing offensive Excadrill to defensive Donphan is like comparing Stealth Rock Garchomp to Stealth Rock Ferrothorn. Obviously Stealth Rock Garchomp isn't bad despite being way frailer than Ferrothorn and having inferior defensive typing because those things don't matter for an offensive Stealth Rock user.

Also if you're going to use Donphan, at least use Knock Off and some Attack EVs to OHKO Gengar.

Actually, if you're going to use Donphan, stop and ask yourself why you're using it first. YOU CAN'T LET IT REST IN PEACE IF YOU DON'T LET IT DIE.
 
Baharoth said:
Ok just for the fun of it...

Don't use this:

530.png

Excadrill @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance

Why it's bad: With very low defenses and a typing that leaves it vulnerable to 4 very common attacking types in form of fire, ground, fighting and water its hard to switch it in safely. Its got quite a few resistances, the most notable beeing flying and dragon but pretty much every user of such moves has coverage options to ohko Excadrill and most of them are faster as well. Because of its unfortunate typing it is forced to use Air Balloon leaving it without any recovery, further limiting its abillity to use rapid spin later in the match. While it can hit rotom-w with Earthquake it fails to ohko the most common physical defensive set while it gets ohkoed back most of the time. Because of that its very risky to switch in on rotom and unreasonable to hope to threaten it out.



Instead, use:

232.png

Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Why it's better: Its strong physical bulk allows it to switch into most unboosted physical attacks without taking much dmg giving it lots of opportunitys to remove hazards and set up his own. While its offensive presence isnt the strongest, its base 120 attack and decent SE Coverage from Stone Edge and Stab Earthquake are enough to scare out many common pokemon. Notable examples beeing Talonflame, Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Charizard X and physical Mega Lucario. It can even outright counter or at least check these threats if it needs to, meaning it can switch on almost every move and ko them back in return. Aside from these top tier threats it can also switch in on weaker physical attackers like defensive Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon and many others who fail to deal much dmg to Donphan.

The only common ghost types in the meta, Aegisslash and Gengar both take > 50% dmg from EQ and SE respectively and dont realy want to switch into it. Other Spinblockers like Trevenant are a problem for Donphan because he cant handle them himself, but since they are both rarely used thats not to much of an issue. Its typing while missing notable resistances is still good for Donphan because he is physical defensive and his 3 weaknesses in form of grass, ice and water are, for the most part, specially oriented and very easy to predict. Grass is also rather uncommon as a attacking type leaving donphan with virtually just 2 common weaknesses.

Its biggest issue is the limited recovery. A problem thats getting even worse from the fact that Donphan doubles as a rapidspinner/stealth rock setter and a physical tank, meaning that if he is used to stop dangerous stuff like Mega Pinsir he wont be able to spin that many times afterwards or even not all. Because of that he shouldnt be relied on to stop these things, but if he needs to, he will.


Let the shitstorm begin...
Click to expand...
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I think I love you for this....
 
Baharoth said:
Ok just for the fun of it...

Don't use this:

530.png

Excadrill @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance

Why it's bad: With very low defenses and a typing that leaves it vulnerable to 4 very common attacking types in form of fire, ground, fighting and water its hard to switch it in safely. Its got quite a few resistances, the most notable beeing flying and dragon but pretty much every user of such moves has coverage options to ohko Excadrill and most of them are faster as well. Because of its unfortunate typing it is forced to use Air Balloon leaving it without any recovery, further limiting its abillity to use rapid spin later in the match. While it can hit rotom-w with Earthquake it fails to ohko the most common physical defensive set while it gets ohkoed back most of the time. Because of that its very risky to switch in on rotom and unreasonable to hope to threaten it out.



Instead, use:

232.png

Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Why it's better: Its strong physical bulk allows it to switch into most unboosted physical attacks without taking much dmg giving it lots of opportunitys to remove hazards and set up his own. While its offensive presence isnt the strongest, its base 120 attack and decent SE Coverage from Stone Edge and Stab Earthquake are enough to scare out many common pokemon. Notable examples beeing Talonflame, Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Charizard X and physical Mega Lucario. It can even outright counter or at least check these threats if it needs to, meaning it can switch on almost every move and ko them back in return. Aside from these top tier threats it can also switch in on weaker physical attackers like defensive Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon and many others who fail to deal much dmg to Donphan.

The only common ghost types in the meta, Aegisslash and Gengar both take > 50% dmg from EQ and SE respectively and dont realy want to switch into it. Other Spinblockers like Trevenant are a problem for Donphan because he cant handle them himself, but since they are both rarely used thats not to much of an issue. Its typing while missing notable resistances is still good for Donphan because he is physical defensive and his 3 weaknesses in form of grass, ice and water are, for the most part, specially oriented and very easy to predict. Grass is also rather uncommon as a attacking type leaving donphan with virtually just 2 common weaknesses.

Its biggest issue is the limited recovery. A problem thats getting even worse from the fact that Donphan doubles as a rapidspinner/stealth rock setter and a physical tank, meaning that if he is used to stop dangerous stuff like Mega Pinsir he wont be able to spin that many times afterwards or even not all. Because of that he shouldnt be relied on to stop these things, but if he needs to, he will.


Let the shitstorm begin...
Click to expand...
This is a terrible comparison. Helpless against almost every spinblocker in existence. This is much less of an issue for Excadrill, which also has a better defensive typing and doesn't cause you to lose a shitload of momentum. Doesn't even matter if it has 120 Atk, unboosted, it's damage output is a horrid disappointment. Because of this, it's far easier to take advantage of Donphan than it is for Excadrill. Not to mention that switching Donphan carelessly into most unboosted attacks is a stupid idea, wearing it down quicker before it has a chance to Rapid Spin. Spe is crap as well. It can't counter or even check any of the aforementioned threats because it is by no means able to take their unresisted STABs before being 2HKO'd, literally. Even Jellicent, last Gen's go-to spinblocker, outspeeds it.

If you're putting so much dedication into Donphan when there's only so many better options, you're doing it hella wrong.
 
watwatwat
But the two are very different, though. One is specially based, the other is physical. One is affected by status conditions and rocks, the only thing that the other has to worry about is paralysis. One hits very hard, the other can more or less survive any one attack to hit twice. The two have very different typings and coverage options.

Revenge killing MegaLuke hardly matters now when it's almost guaranteed to be banned. Furthermore, if you want more power on your 'zam, you could always ditch his Sash for a recoil-less Life Orb if that tickles your fancy.
 
Ok guys, we don't need to endlessly reply to that one Donphan vs Excadrill post. That discussion has been beat to death in the Viability thread already, and that post was made for laughs more than anything (I hope!). Now then, how about something like this...

Don't Use This:
291.png

Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Substitute

Instead, use this:
545.png

Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance / Iron Defense
- Protect
- Substitute

Why it's better:

Poor Ninjask's days are over since the introduction of Speed Boost Scolipede. I still keep seeing Ninjask being thrown around for some reason, but as a dedicated Baton Passer, Scolipede simply outclasses it. Not only does Scolipede have a better typing and stats (outside of Speed, which is largely irrelevant), but it can also pass along Iron Defense boosts which are great on dedicated Baton Pass teams alongside teammates like Espeon. One of the other advantages in using Scolipede is it can fit onto other teams as well. Scolipede can run a more offensive Sash lead set with Megahorn and EQ, or even provide Spikes support. No matter its role or team, Scolipede is a more threatening and diverse Pokemon and outshines Ninjask.
 
Alakazam and Talonflame are obviously very different, but people tend to use them as reliable revenge killers regardless. It is fair to compare them when it comes to completing that specific task, but there are instances in which Alakazam might be better for a particular team synergistically. I do however agree that Talonflame is generally better at revenge killing setup sweepers than Alakazam is.
 
I have one example
If you want to have a Psychic wall in your team, there are two legendaries that in theory do that. This legendaries got lower usage because the presence of pokemon weak to them. However, if you want to use a Psychic wall,

Don't use this (I will use a mixed spread)


252 HP 252 Def 4 SpA
Bold Nature @ Leftovers
Stealth Rock
Calm Mind
Psychic
Thunderbolt

Even though it could be a cool idea to use a wall with 130 Base Defenses that also set ups rocks and boost the SpA could be a cool idea, this set is dissapointed in the fact that his HP is rather low. THunderbolt is fine for coverage but is not the end-of-all move.

If you are using a Calm Mind Psychic wall, use this.


252 HP 160 Def 96 SpA (Tentative)
Bold Nature @ Leftovers
Calm Mind
Psychic
Ice Beam
Moonlight

Two words: Reliable recovery and better defenses. But is not actually worse with 120/130 defenses tyrather than 130/130? Not when you have 45 more base HP which I think there are 90 HP points more and this is huge (and 120 HP+ pokemon are rare). And with the weather nerf, Moonlight can be used as recovery with is huge for a wall. Note that in stats, Cresselia is the best MiXED wall in the metagame.

Edit I did a HUGE mistake Uxie is not even on the Top 200 And Cresselia is arounf the Top 150. this thread are for bad OU (or close to it) Pokemon, not pokemon that never see the light.
 
Last edited:
It can't counter or even check any of the aforementioned threats because it is by no means able to take their unresisted STABs before being 2HKO'd, literally.
Click to expand...

I strongly recommend using calcs to avoid making false statements.

If you've seen that guy post in the viability thread, you'll know that he's just trolling at this point. The donphan bashing needs to end, but baharoth's bad arguments were the sole reason it got blacklisted to begin with. Pretty sure that he's well aware of this too and he's just trying to incite another argument in this thread. If he really wanted to make donphan look good, he would have compared it to other defensive spinners that have trouble getting the job done. Like tentacruel and forretress. Don't take him seriously.
Click to expand...

I am not the one who compares donphan and excadrill all the time, i said more than once already that this is stupid. Sadly i dont think that it matters at all what arguments i bring or what i compare it to, its simply impossible to discuss this topic here. And no thats not my fault. Donphan was hated like nothing else long before i even registered.
 
Last edited:
Zebstrika said:
Doing Florges vs. Sylveon here, as Florges was still #79 or so on January's usage stats.

Don't use this:
110px-671Florges_Blue_Flower_Dream.png

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Who cares
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Protect

Why it's bad: It's not really that bad. Florges is a decent catch-all special wall, having a very good special defense and only 2 uncommon weaknesses. It can than set up wishes and aromatherapy to support the team when it encounters one of those special attackers, like Rotom-W.

But it's completely outclassed by Sylveon. It just has worse stats, especially the ones that matter.

Instead, use this:
96px-700Sylveon.png

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature (note: this spread is only physically defensive as an arbitrary spread to compare Florges and Sylveon, but you can throw in more special defense EVs and change the nature to Calm if you want to be a little better at walling special attackers)
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Hyper Voice
- Protect

Why it's better: Sylveon just has better stats than Florges. Sylveon has higher HP, so it has slightly better physical defense and slightly worse special defense overall despite having lower base defense and special defense stats. More importantly, Sylveon's higher HP means when a teammate receives a Wish, it is healed for more HP.

252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 228-270 (63.3 - 75%)
252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Sylveon: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%)

252 SpA Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 170-204 (47.2 - 56.6%)
252 SpA Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%)

Sylveon also is significantly stronger than Florges, making Sylveon less of set-up bait (including setting up substitutes as Hyper Voice is a sound move, bypassing subs). Their base special attack stats are 2 points apart, but Sylveon's Pixilate Hyper Voice is 117 base power factoring in Pixilate's 30% boost. Florges' Moonblast is just 95 base power. Overall, Sylveon is about 21% more powerful:

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%)
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 183-216 (65.1 - 76.8%)

If you decide to run coverage moves, Sylveon is less than 2% weaker, worth the trade off for being able to use Pixilate Hyper Voice.

Speaking of coverage moves, Sylveon's selection is better. Both of them have access to psychic type moves. In addition to those, Sylveon gets Shadow Ball while Florges gets a wide range of grass type moves. The three types that resist Florges' main fairy STAB (poison, steel and fire) also resist grass, so it's a pointless coverage move type.
Click to expand...
Florges has some uses in the OU metagame:
Note) It's effective in the metagame. This is simply outclassed.
Uses it has over Sylveon:
1) More speed.15 more Speed can be irrelevant but maybe they can be EV in Speed to outspeed a key threat.
2) Energy Ball has the niche of hitting Rotom-W harder, specially in a metagame full of Rotom-W.
3) Sylveon + Florges teams. You can use a more offensive Sylveon + "standard Florges". Fairy-type are one of the few types that can be duplicate without heavy roles in your team. However, if you want to go that, dothis isn Pokemon Online UU.

Obviously Sylveon > Florges, if only ofr that Hyper Voice.

Also, given hoy physical the metagame is, Sylveon is better in the Ubers metagame than in OU. In other words, mega Lucario won't stop meeting with him.
 
Florges vs Sylveon arguments stop here because:

1. Sylveon has better mixed bulk. The higher HP stat allows it to tank hits better.
2. ...AND pass larger wishes.
3. Pixelate Hyper Voice is stronger than Florges' Moonblast and Sylveon has a better offensive movepool thanks to being an Eeveelution (they typically have a decent enough movepool).
4. Combine all this with the fact that Sylveon can perform the same exact role as Florges (Wishatherapy/Wish Bell, respectively), you now have an outclassed Pokemon.

Elephant of Lame needs to stop here. We don't need the curse of th Viability Thread to spread here...

As far as this thread goes, I love it. It helps newer players understand which Pokemon outclass what others and can always help with teambuilding. The comparisons, however, better be legitimate (Talonflame with Alakazam is pushing it).

Finally, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Baharoth...your Elephant of Lame vs Excadrill post made my day ^_^
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top