I wanted to discuss Grass-types real quick. Could have posted in the Metagame thread, but I felt this was needed because it's a specific matter within the game. Plus, it could possibly help out a couple players (including myself, I legitimately want to know on some of these).
If there's one group of Pokemon that could be described as unsung heroes or even the dark horses in DPP, I think it's the Grass-type Pokemon. While Grass has always been a key component of many teams over the years, I've felt they've never been truly as striking within OU. Mainly because of the superstar types like Dragon, Steel, Water, etc. taking the spotlight all the time. Heck, even some of the weaker types may be more notable because of their liabilities.
Of course, this isn't to say the Grass-types themselves in OU are weak. Quite the contrary, they are dangerous and that's why I made this thread. Because of the type's smaller "profile" if you can call it that, I have felt that there has never been a solid ground on the matter of both preparing for them when building a team and actually combating them in battle over all these years. There are only four Grass-types in OU (one, Shaymin, only rose to the tier in mid/late Platinum). Each has their roles and can do them extremely well. I'm mainly created this thread for Shaymin and Breloom, but Celebi and Roserade can be roped in because of what I feel about Grass in general.
Gonna detail each of them a bit (Breloom and Shaymin more than the other two), and add some personal stuff and use those as starts. So yeah, the mysterious Grass-type Pokemon.
Breloom
While not the overall best Grass-type (in my opinion), it's arguably the most dangerous and among the worst Pokemon in the tier to overlook when building a team. I know we've all built teams in the past that could be fully halted by this thing and somehow never be able to break out of its wrath. The cornerstone of its sets is, of course, Spore. Unless you have a couple protocols in dealing with it, you're going to have to play with one less mon on your team as long as it's slept. Of course it gets easier to deal with once Sleep Clause is activated, but still, nobody asleep is better than somebody asleep (against your control). Substitute, Leech Seed, and Poison Heal make it really annoying to take down in any sort of speed. Finally, its sky-high Attack rounds out the package with dual STABs like Seed Bomb and Focus Punch, providing some decent enough coverage and doing hefty damage to anyone not resisting them (and in the case of Focus Punch, even some resists need to watch out).
The big problem with countering Breloom is how some of its "counters" can be extremely limited in their strength providing you got the right tools. Celebi itself on paper, is the most obvious counter. Resists both STABs quite well, is immune to Leech Seed, and has Natural Cure to get rid of Sleep. I think Celebi is among the most solid and consistent Pokemon in OU, but you can't ignore its weakness to Tyranitar, who can checkmate it in many situations. Scizor gets opportunities to use its utility moves. Hell, Breloom can even play around Natural Cure a bit and go for a second Spore as they switch out to remove it from Celebi.
One of my favorites, Gyarados faces issues as well. Alone, it does the job, especially the Sleep Talk set. Switch in right away to get the Intimidate drop and absorb the sleep. However, Stealth Rock cuts its survivability considerably so someone using Breloom just has to be on top of keep rocks on the field. In fact, this applies to many Flying-types, as they hate rocks too. Crobat, for example, has a 4X resist to both STABs, but needs to be cautious when switching in, otherwise be slept or seeded (in addition to the SR damage).
It's not all about switching in and being immune to Breloom though. How annoying is it to take a Leech Seed? Yes, you can get rid of it by switching, but that's a forced play, which the Breloom user can take advantage of. If you don't switch, you are still likely in a negative position, because they can then switch out to their own counter and heal a bit with Leech Seed, while it softens up your own Pokemon. It all adds up in making Breloom harder to deal with.
Shaymin
I personally see Shaymin and Celebi equally effective in play for the most part, but Shaymin has much less of a gaping weakness that can have it checkmated. Plus, offensively, it has the upper hand. I think at the end of the day, Shaymin might be the best Grass type and it's the main reason for this thread (I constantly had problems with it and would like to hear some methods to combat it). Huge stat total, allowing it last forever with it's amazing bulk, a great Special Attack stat backed with the stupidly dangerous STAB Seed Flare, and a good Speed tier to sit at.
I find it hard to effectively prepare for when building teams. There is obvious stuff to attempt to wall it, but it's not that easy when you take a SpD drop and not have many other options to switch in. It's fast enough to where the player can simply use a coverage move to then eliminate a check. You can't status it because of Natural Cure either.
When you look at it, how can you beat an offensive set (or any set for that matter)? By being lucky with prediction. Either somehow get something faster in or by hoping the opponent mispredicts a move at some point and switches Shaymin into a super effective move.
As previously said with Breloom, even if you can get someone safely in, taking a negative side effect can just play into its hands. I've continuously had to take Leech Seeds and watch it run away to do the same thing later on, never being able to be knocked out until near the end of the match. Shaymin is riskier to deal with due to Seed Flare.
The one falter in its build is Seed Flare's PP, fortunately for us. It's only got eight uses, maybe less if Pressure is factored in. Still, those little uses can be enough to wreak havoc in a short period of time.
How do you guys deal with this thing? I've always just relied on carrying at least a couple Grass resists simply to eat up SF. Rapid Spin support is crucial for flyers so they don't get worn down by Stealth Rock, while you need to be ready for Earth Power and HP Fire/Ice (hopefully it doesn't pack the type you're weak to). I mean, it's all you can do for the most part.
Celebi
While the Psychic typing can cause a lot of problems, it doesn't fully ruin Celebi. I used it on a lot of teams, and besides Tyranitar, I've never been held back significantly by anything else. Of course HP Fire clinches some of the Steels, but I never felt weighted down by using it on a lot of sets. Celebi is just resilient. Recover and Natural allows it to come in and sponge hits again and again. The Grass STABs can provide massive power in a pinch (Leaf Storm mainly) and it can even set up and sweep unprepared teams with Nastly Plot (or pass the boost to someone else with Baton Pass). This is all backed by the rounded stats, which do a lot to provide flexibility in how much it can do.
The addition of Recover usually makes Celebi harder to straight muscle through than Shaymin. I always use it to absorb status and block certain threats. Pull away when in danger and find the time to heal later on. Don't rely on it too much, otherwise you'll find some moves doing far more damage than you'd want (depends on the EV spread you use).
Roserade
Obviously not a potent behemoth like the other three, but can still be effective in certain team types. Good Speed and Special stats. The Speed is the most important, because it aids in the use of the sparsely-spread Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sleep Powder (at least in regards to the amount of effective users of the three moves in OU). Natural Cure allows it to take some status and while not exactly bulky (its SpD is decent though), smart switching allows it lengthen its playtime.
I've never had too many problems with dealing with it for the most part. It can be annoying on some teams, but I always manage to take it out swiftly, mainly because the opponent is so busy laying hazards on the field. Hell, I might not even be that affected by either hazard. Sleep Powder can put someone down though, so don't take it lightly.
Typed up more than I thought I was going to, but whatever. This is open for these Pokemon as well as the Grass-typing itself, so let's see if we can make some ground on the topic, if only a little bit.
If there's one group of Pokemon that could be described as unsung heroes or even the dark horses in DPP, I think it's the Grass-type Pokemon. While Grass has always been a key component of many teams over the years, I've felt they've never been truly as striking within OU. Mainly because of the superstar types like Dragon, Steel, Water, etc. taking the spotlight all the time. Heck, even some of the weaker types may be more notable because of their liabilities.
Of course, this isn't to say the Grass-types themselves in OU are weak. Quite the contrary, they are dangerous and that's why I made this thread. Because of the type's smaller "profile" if you can call it that, I have felt that there has never been a solid ground on the matter of both preparing for them when building a team and actually combating them in battle over all these years. There are only four Grass-types in OU (one, Shaymin, only rose to the tier in mid/late Platinum). Each has their roles and can do them extremely well. I'm mainly created this thread for Shaymin and Breloom, but Celebi and Roserade can be roped in because of what I feel about Grass in general.
Gonna detail each of them a bit (Breloom and Shaymin more than the other two), and add some personal stuff and use those as starts. So yeah, the mysterious Grass-type Pokemon.
Breloom
While not the overall best Grass-type (in my opinion), it's arguably the most dangerous and among the worst Pokemon in the tier to overlook when building a team. I know we've all built teams in the past that could be fully halted by this thing and somehow never be able to break out of its wrath. The cornerstone of its sets is, of course, Spore. Unless you have a couple protocols in dealing with it, you're going to have to play with one less mon on your team as long as it's slept. Of course it gets easier to deal with once Sleep Clause is activated, but still, nobody asleep is better than somebody asleep (against your control). Substitute, Leech Seed, and Poison Heal make it really annoying to take down in any sort of speed. Finally, its sky-high Attack rounds out the package with dual STABs like Seed Bomb and Focus Punch, providing some decent enough coverage and doing hefty damage to anyone not resisting them (and in the case of Focus Punch, even some resists need to watch out).
The big problem with countering Breloom is how some of its "counters" can be extremely limited in their strength providing you got the right tools. Celebi itself on paper, is the most obvious counter. Resists both STABs quite well, is immune to Leech Seed, and has Natural Cure to get rid of Sleep. I think Celebi is among the most solid and consistent Pokemon in OU, but you can't ignore its weakness to Tyranitar, who can checkmate it in many situations. Scizor gets opportunities to use its utility moves. Hell, Breloom can even play around Natural Cure a bit and go for a second Spore as they switch out to remove it from Celebi.
One of my favorites, Gyarados faces issues as well. Alone, it does the job, especially the Sleep Talk set. Switch in right away to get the Intimidate drop and absorb the sleep. However, Stealth Rock cuts its survivability considerably so someone using Breloom just has to be on top of keep rocks on the field. In fact, this applies to many Flying-types, as they hate rocks too. Crobat, for example, has a 4X resist to both STABs, but needs to be cautious when switching in, otherwise be slept or seeded (in addition to the SR damage).
It's not all about switching in and being immune to Breloom though. How annoying is it to take a Leech Seed? Yes, you can get rid of it by switching, but that's a forced play, which the Breloom user can take advantage of. If you don't switch, you are still likely in a negative position, because they can then switch out to their own counter and heal a bit with Leech Seed, while it softens up your own Pokemon. It all adds up in making Breloom harder to deal with.
Shaymin
I personally see Shaymin and Celebi equally effective in play for the most part, but Shaymin has much less of a gaping weakness that can have it checkmated. Plus, offensively, it has the upper hand. I think at the end of the day, Shaymin might be the best Grass type and it's the main reason for this thread (I constantly had problems with it and would like to hear some methods to combat it). Huge stat total, allowing it last forever with it's amazing bulk, a great Special Attack stat backed with the stupidly dangerous STAB Seed Flare, and a good Speed tier to sit at.
I find it hard to effectively prepare for when building teams. There is obvious stuff to attempt to wall it, but it's not that easy when you take a SpD drop and not have many other options to switch in. It's fast enough to where the player can simply use a coverage move to then eliminate a check. You can't status it because of Natural Cure either.
When you look at it, how can you beat an offensive set (or any set for that matter)? By being lucky with prediction. Either somehow get something faster in or by hoping the opponent mispredicts a move at some point and switches Shaymin into a super effective move.
As previously said with Breloom, even if you can get someone safely in, taking a negative side effect can just play into its hands. I've continuously had to take Leech Seeds and watch it run away to do the same thing later on, never being able to be knocked out until near the end of the match. Shaymin is riskier to deal with due to Seed Flare.
The one falter in its build is Seed Flare's PP, fortunately for us. It's only got eight uses, maybe less if Pressure is factored in. Still, those little uses can be enough to wreak havoc in a short period of time.
How do you guys deal with this thing? I've always just relied on carrying at least a couple Grass resists simply to eat up SF. Rapid Spin support is crucial for flyers so they don't get worn down by Stealth Rock, while you need to be ready for Earth Power and HP Fire/Ice (hopefully it doesn't pack the type you're weak to). I mean, it's all you can do for the most part.
Celebi
While the Psychic typing can cause a lot of problems, it doesn't fully ruin Celebi. I used it on a lot of teams, and besides Tyranitar, I've never been held back significantly by anything else. Of course HP Fire clinches some of the Steels, but I never felt weighted down by using it on a lot of sets. Celebi is just resilient. Recover and Natural allows it to come in and sponge hits again and again. The Grass STABs can provide massive power in a pinch (Leaf Storm mainly) and it can even set up and sweep unprepared teams with Nastly Plot (or pass the boost to someone else with Baton Pass). This is all backed by the rounded stats, which do a lot to provide flexibility in how much it can do.
The addition of Recover usually makes Celebi harder to straight muscle through than Shaymin. I always use it to absorb status and block certain threats. Pull away when in danger and find the time to heal later on. Don't rely on it too much, otherwise you'll find some moves doing far more damage than you'd want (depends on the EV spread you use).
Roserade
Obviously not a potent behemoth like the other three, but can still be effective in certain team types. Good Speed and Special stats. The Speed is the most important, because it aids in the use of the sparsely-spread Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sleep Powder (at least in regards to the amount of effective users of the three moves in OU). Natural Cure allows it to take some status and while not exactly bulky (its SpD is decent though), smart switching allows it lengthen its playtime.
I've never had too many problems with dealing with it for the most part. It can be annoying on some teams, but I always manage to take it out swiftly, mainly because the opponent is so busy laying hazards on the field. Hell, I might not even be that affected by either hazard. Sleep Powder can put someone down though, so don't take it lightly.
Typed up more than I thought I was going to, but whatever. This is open for these Pokemon as well as the Grass-typing itself, so let's see if we can make some ground on the topic, if only a little bit.
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Anyway on my offensive team I needed a solid switch in to grounds + rocks, and to pressure stall a bit more. Breloom is great at doing this, but I wanted him to stick around or I'd get worn down after switching into Scarftar or LO Aero a few times. So, I wanted Leech Seed on it. However I didn't want to run SubSeed for a few reasons. First of all, that set loses to Gliscor, which is unacceptable. Second of all, if I wanted Loom to stick around, Sub probably wasn't going to see a ton of use. Third, I wouldn't actually be able to damage Swampert and Hippo, which was half the reason I was putting Loom on the team in the first place. Leech Seed + Seed Bomb it was. I obviously wasn't going to use unprotected Focus Punch as my Fighting STAB, so I figured... why not Mach Punch, extra priority never killed anyone right? It's been ridiculously useful, picking off weakened things left and right. Revenge killing a fully set up SubPetaya Empoleon that would otherwise sweep me off my ass is pretty high up there on the ecstasy scale.
