So does Heracross with Gliscor replacing Hippowdon but he's not being debated as Uber :/
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D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)
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So does Heracross with Gliscor replacing Hippowdon but he's not being debated as Uber :/
Well, he doesn't create Sandstream, have Base 110 def, and have a sandstorm that takes away Leftovers recovery. Let's not mention because of that gimped SS S.Def boost, it has 354 S.Def with no EV investment. That's fucking insane. Togekiss with Aura Sphere and not max S.Atk can't KO Tar with Aura Sphere. Now I'm not saying that you should leave Togekiss on TTar, but that kind of defense is insane.
But the main thing is Sandstream, that fucks everything that isn't Rock/Ground/Steel. Nothing likes to lose Leftovers, and Life Orbers are royally fucked. Anything without Lefties in a Sandstream has serious problems most of the time.
But the main thing is Sandstream, that fucks everything that isn't Rock/Ground/Steel. Nothing likes to lose Leftovers, and Life Orbers are royally fucked. Anything without Lefties in a Sandstream has serious problems most of the time.
Pay real close attention to this post, guys: If Blissey is banned to UBER play, then special sweeping pokemon like SpecsMence, Azelf, Raikou, Jirachi and Togekiss will unbelievably constrict the OU metagame. Why do so many of you fail to take your reasoning to the next level when thinking "if tyranitar becomes uber blissey should be too", even though such thinking commits the logical fallacy of composition regardless?
The next person to suggest that Blissey be banished to the UBER tier without reasoning is getting infracted. The more experienced among us have been reading this mindbogglingly ridiculous claim for months now, and faulty reasoning like this is one of the main reasons my "Pokémon Taboos" topic included discussing tiers.
Do not forget — even by this point in late June, with the advent of ShoddyBattle and the DP Bots on mIRC freshly behind us, many of us still have not access to a decent DP battle simulator for any noteworthy amount of time, and therefore literally cannot base a LOT of claims about tiers on anything substantial. The ludicrousness of such banter is magnified by those who haven't even played regularly on Netbattle or anywhere else and gained the experience necessary to sensibly discuss this issue. Don't turn this thread into a shitfest like chaos's tiers threads in Advance turned out, even years after that metagame had largely been established.
The next person to suggest that Blissey be banished to the UBER tier without reasoning is getting infracted. The more experienced among us have been reading this mindbogglingly ridiculous claim for months now, and faulty reasoning like this is one of the main reasons my "Pokémon Taboos" topic included discussing tiers.
Do not forget — even by this point in late June, with the advent of ShoddyBattle and the DP Bots on mIRC freshly behind us, many of us still have not access to a decent DP battle simulator for any noteworthy amount of time, and therefore literally cannot base a LOT of claims about tiers on anything substantial. The ludicrousness of such banter is magnified by those who haven't even played regularly on Netbattle or anywhere else and gained the experience necessary to sensibly discuss this issue. Don't turn this thread into a shitfest like chaos's tiers threads in Advance turned out, even years after that metagame had largely been established.
I dont think debating Tar like that over its Sanstorm is approiate because if it went to Ubers Hippowdon would just fill its void for starting SS, but its moreso the 1.5 boost that the SS is giving to Tar making its Sdef that much better which makes Tar debatable.
But you have to remember that the standard switchin to Tar are ground types due to their resistance to Stone Edge which attack at his Physical Defence.
Personally i think Tar is fine in OU
Blissey should stay, for jumpman's reasoning: It's the best at what it does.
As much as we hate the whore, it's our last best defense against Special Sweepers. It's stats are horrible, barring the HP/Sdef. CM bliss is the only way you'll ever so anything more than Seismic Toss, and good prediction can bag you some Blissey KO's. I'm pretty sure without investment in Satk, like most are, it cant even KO Garchomp, then dies to Outrage.
I'm against the idea of Hipno's list, because with your list, you remove half the metagame, causing a drag while everyone figures out what the fuck to do with their teams, which either means OU is very small, or we'd have to reach and grab some UU candidates, which means THEN, that UU grabs NU, which makes those last two tiers not at all fun to play.
As much as we hate the whore, it's our last best defense against Special Sweepers. It's stats are horrible, barring the HP/Sdef. CM bliss is the only way you'll ever so anything more than Seismic Toss, and good prediction can bag you some Blissey KO's. I'm pretty sure without investment in Satk, like most are, it cant even KO Garchomp, then dies to Outrage.
I'm against the idea of Hipno's list, because with your list, you remove half the metagame, causing a drag while everyone figures out what the fuck to do with their teams, which either means OU is very small, or we'd have to reach and grab some UU candidates, which means THEN, that UU grabs NU, which makes those last two tiers not at all fun to play.
Banning Bliss, as Jump said, makes no fucking sense. I haven't used any of these major special attackers at all minus Raikou, but I know they hurt like all hell. Bliss is the only shit that even tries to stop Raikou. Especially with the advent of CMBliss, Raikou can fuck teams over, so imaging the ones with Nasty Plot, such as Azelf, Toge, and company. SpecsCario already destroys the whole metagame as is, why make it THAT much worse?
Anyway, what the hell is with the thinking that if TTar is banned, then Blissey should be too. Those two pokemon have NOTHING to do with each other. Banning TTar would have a pretty big effect on the metagame, especially, because I've used it enough to say that it fucks stuff up.
To sum it up, I agree with everything Jump said about Bliss.
You people shouldn't even talk about banning walls, we need those, seriously. Don't ban stuff like Bliss, Cress(who kind of sucks anyway), and company.
Anyway, what the hell is with the thinking that if TTar is banned, then Blissey should be too. Those two pokemon have NOTHING to do with each other. Banning TTar would have a pretty big effect on the metagame, especially, because I've used it enough to say that it fucks stuff up.
To sum it up, I agree with everything Jump said about Bliss.
You people shouldn't even talk about banning walls, we need those, seriously. Don't ban stuff like Bliss, Cress(who kind of sucks anyway), and company.
I wasn't implying Blissey should be banned. I just assumed, having such top tier Pokemon on Hipno's Uber list, Blissey not being there seemed wrong. I appologize. It really doesn't make sense.
People read:
1) Uber isn't a balanced tier, it's where something overly strong for the balanced OU metagame gets pushed.
2) This isn't based on usage. If using say, flareon becomes a fad of some sort, it doesn't mean flareon will become OU.
That being said, I like Hip's idea and hope more discussion on that gets going. As for this list, it's awesome. I love how Tyranitar, Manaphy and Celebi are handled. God, I hate those fuckers.
1) Uber isn't a balanced tier, it's where something overly strong for the balanced OU metagame gets pushed.
2) This isn't based on usage. If using say, flareon becomes a fad of some sort, it doesn't mean flareon will become OU.
That being said, I like Hip's idea and hope more discussion on that gets going. As for this list, it's awesome. I love how Tyranitar, Manaphy and Celebi are handled. God, I hate those fuckers.
Er... sorry if this is stupid, but why aren't Staraptor, Tauros, and Blaziken OU? Staraptor and Tauros are on the threat list, and Blaziken improved a lot from last gen. (And his attack being a fair amount higher than Infernape allows him to CScarf and hit-and-run CB pretty effectively). So yeah... sorry if that's dumb.
Being on the threat list doesn't mean anything. It just so happens that these pokemon do hit hard. But seriously, Staraptor COULD be considered low OU, I like it personally, because it hits hard as hell, has an awesome physical movepool, and is moderately fast. When Close Combat is your third weakest move, that means something. Blaziken is just outclassed by everything, seriously. It can't EndRev anymore because of the frequency of Sandstorm plus Lucario does it far better. Infernape has a better movepool, stat distribution, and just does it better. Tauros, I've never seen on a D/P team in my entire life. It isn't exactly the hardest hitter anymore either. It's not what it was in RBY, and it ever will be =]
Anyway, Kumar, I thought that the frequency of a pokemon's usage determines if it's OU, that was probably last gen reasoning, even if I didn't full agree with it. But if this reasoning holds true for this gen, then Staravia_Staraptor, this is another explanation for your question.
Anyway, Kumar, I thought that the frequency of a pokemon's usage determines if it's OU, that was probably last gen reasoning, even if I didn't full agree with it. But if this reasoning holds true for this gen, then Staravia_Staraptor, this is another explanation for your question.
Hehehehehe, I feel special.
I've never personally used TTar, but I've fought people with them, and never *really* found them too hard to take down. If anything on your team has a free space, slap on a weather move (hopefully one that'll work in conjunction with the rest of your team) and after taking out opposing TTar (which is easily done with anything from close combat to focus blast- Once I had Focus Blast on CMBliss (lol) and when someone brought out TTar to try and get me (ooo big scary physical guy) I nailed him with a Focus Blast to OHKO (though my memory's a bit vague) Either way, not the place for battle stories.) you swap to your weather user and screw up the foe's sandbased team. Piece of cake.
Blissey remains OU, end of story. Anyone saying otherwise is probably just some random inexperienced battler who's been screwed over for lack of a Bliss counter.
If you mean the Unburden boost, that's not passable. I've used it a ton. Also, I haven't really been able to keep my Drifblim alive long enough to Sub-Pass at all, unless I got lucky and managed to set up at least 2 Stockpiles, maybe 3. Anything with Stone Edge kills it easily (at least mine, though it's not EV'd very well). Anyway, I don't think drifblim should make OU, honestly, so this isn't the thread to discuss him.
Why not Yanmega? It's a really broken lead if used correctly. Protect to get Speed Boosts, having a 70% sleeping move (Hypnosis) and 2HKOing almost every single lead is something to consider. Giving it a Focus Sash is awesome, as you'll get a chance to sleep the opponent if the first Hypnosis failed or finish 2HKOing the enemy.
50% damage from Stealth Rock really hurts, but a Spinner can cover that. But Yanmega isn't supposed to take hits, save the first for Sash.
Ambipom is also a good Pokemon. Fake Out + U-Turn combo is awesome. It can also work as Nasty Plot/Agility passer and has a good movepool, including Brick Break, STAB Return, Shadow Claw...
Manaphy didn't give me any problems at all, but I'm not sure if I saw the best of it. Its really scary though. I don't see a reason for banning Celebi. Of couse it has a great movepool, but things like Azelf and Weavile can handle it.
50% damage from Stealth Rock really hurts, but a Spinner can cover that. But Yanmega isn't supposed to take hits, save the first for Sash.
Ambipom is also a good Pokemon. Fake Out + U-Turn combo is awesome. It can also work as Nasty Plot/Agility passer and has a good movepool, including Brick Break, STAB Return, Shadow Claw...
Manaphy didn't give me any problems at all, but I'm not sure if I saw the best of it. Its really scary though. I don't see a reason for banning Celebi. Of couse it has a great movepool, but things like Azelf and Weavile can handle it.
I think we will have enough BLs to make a BL metagame(if the tiering stays similar to last gen, not exactly a given), personally, though the criteria for being BL might lead to it being an imbalanced orgy of death, like ubers. Except, with wimpier pokemon, but if Snorlax and Milo end up there, it might be manageable. I've always had a soft spot for Flygon, but it's never been soft enough to forego 'Mence...
As for Manaphy, the only argument I ever see is "it has to set up rain", which is utterly ludicrous, as it assumes Manaphy to exist in a vacuum, and even Ky00ber itself can be countered if you put it in a vacuum. I don't think many people have seen it(or calced it, for that matter) and don't realize how ridiculous TG is.
Oh, Celebi? I'd say OU. It's just riddled with weaknesses and the move pool isn't so hot. I'd love for it to go uber because it'd horribly annoying while it sets up a sweep, but it's just not that good that it centralizes the metagame. That's my impression, at least.
As for T-Tar, that'll need extensive testing, and also a lack of bias. We'll need to step back and reflect on him long and hard, and maybe even test with and without him, to see what difference his absence makes, if any.
As for Manaphy, the only argument I ever see is "it has to set up rain", which is utterly ludicrous, as it assumes Manaphy to exist in a vacuum, and even Ky00ber itself can be countered if you put it in a vacuum. I don't think many people have seen it(or calced it, for that matter) and don't realize how ridiculous TG is.
Oh, Celebi? I'd say OU. It's just riddled with weaknesses and the move pool isn't so hot. I'd love for it to go uber because it'd horribly annoying while it sets up a sweep, but it's just not that good that it centralizes the metagame. That's my impression, at least.
As for T-Tar, that'll need extensive testing, and also a lack of bias. We'll need to step back and reflect on him long and hard, and maybe even test with and without him, to see what difference his absence makes, if any.
Okay... I just thought that appearing on a threat list meant that the pokemon was automatically OU... And I thought that Blaziken would have something to offer in Choice Scarfing, Baton Pass/Anti-Standarding, Agility-sweeping, or hit-and-run CB (that's a bit of a stretch though.)
What about Agility+Life Orb? Blaziken could get ahead of all the common CScarfers after an Agility, but I suppose that that doesn't matter that much.
Ok, I was wondering if Porygon2 would be low OU. Despite not having as great of a SpAtk stat as its older brother, Porygon-Z, it has better defenses that let it take advantage of its instant-recovery move. It gets BoltBeam, T-Wave, Charge Beam to stat up on the switch making its SpAtk rival Porygon-Zs. Its ability, IMHO one of the best in the game, allows it to come in and counter Gyarados. It can switch in on FlinchHax and trace Serene Grace, giving its STAB Tri-attack a 40% chance of a status, all of which are good.
I know it has one of the worst weaknesses in the game, and it has piss-poor speed, but I'm thinking that its other abilities make up for that.
~ Bam
I know it has one of the worst weaknesses in the game, and it has piss-poor speed, but I'm thinking that its other abilities make up for that.
~ Bam
A lot of you seem really confused here.
Why isn't 'x' OU is almost always a stupid question. It's not OU because people aren't using it as much as the other Pokemon listed in OU. There are a lot of Pokemon that are almost certainly strong enough to be in the OU tier (Staraptor, Raikou, Suicune, Snorlax, etc.) but that doesn't really matter because regardless of how strong they are their usage isn't currently at a level that makes them 'overused,' which is what the tier measures right now.
I think it'd be really tough for something like Yanmega to ever end up in ou though, potentially taking 56% on a switch from sandstream + stealth rock is a bit too much of a threat.
Why isn't 'x' OU is almost always a stupid question. It's not OU because people aren't using it as much as the other Pokemon listed in OU. There are a lot of Pokemon that are almost certainly strong enough to be in the OU tier (Staraptor, Raikou, Suicune, Snorlax, etc.) but that doesn't really matter because regardless of how strong they are their usage isn't currently at a level that makes them 'overused,' which is what the tier measures right now.
I think it'd be really tough for something like Yanmega to ever end up in ou though, potentially taking 56% on a switch from sandstream + stealth rock is a bit too much of a threat.
IMO, keep tyranitar in OU. His x4 fighting weakness was a nusiance before, but in D/P fighting is pretty much the strongest offensive type out there. Also, new moves like Focus Blast really rain on his parade as well as new stuff like scarf medicham, scarfcross, weavile, Infernape, ect. He seems to be falling in popularity slowly but steadily, the speedier Garchomp and Salamence are generally more effective with better typing (I'd take the x4 ice weakness over x4 fighting any day). Celebi isn't that uber either, it's got an x4 weakness to bug, which wasn't bad in previous gens but is steadily getting worse as stuff like Yanmega comes into use. Admittedly, I don't go up against Celebi often, but I've never really been hard pressed to kill it.
Manaphy I wholeheartedly agree with, if a manaphy team kills your boltbeamer, you might as well forfit because manaphy will come in on a death, use its solid defense stats (and insta full heal) to power up and then destroy you, even going through stuff like Blissey without a problem. Nothing will stop a manaphy sweep, except in ubers where stuff like deoxys-F and mewtwo can take it out. I expect he'll get lots of love in uber raindance teams.
As far as the move the trio legends and dragons/ttar up into ubers, I wouldn't miss em, but I think they should go into an Uber-BL tier rather straight up ubers, still above and unusable in OU but make it so you can play with em if you want without stuff like Scarfogre and Mewtwo around.
Manaphy I wholeheartedly agree with, if a manaphy team kills your boltbeamer, you might as well forfit because manaphy will come in on a death, use its solid defense stats (and insta full heal) to power up and then destroy you, even going through stuff like Blissey without a problem. Nothing will stop a manaphy sweep, except in ubers where stuff like deoxys-F and mewtwo can take it out. I expect he'll get lots of love in uber raindance teams.
As far as the move the trio legends and dragons/ttar up into ubers, I wouldn't miss em, but I think they should go into an Uber-BL tier rather straight up ubers, still above and unusable in OU but make it so you can play with em if you want without stuff like Scarfogre and Mewtwo around.
Slick new GFAQS matching account ^_^
Anyway... I realy dont think manaphy deserves the Uber treatment. He needs to start his weather to become a super power, TTar just needs to come out to get his godly 50% bonus.
Certainly Manaphy is in the Uper crust of the Standard tier, but TTar is eating that crust on his sandwitches at lunch. I personaly sigh everytime I have to face a manaphy since you know what coming and you know its tough, but TTar is at least a mighty. People just dont want to move him since they love the positive effect he brings to them.
Anyway... I realy dont think manaphy deserves the Uber treatment. He needs to start his weather to become a super power, TTar just needs to come out to get his godly 50% bonus.
Certainly Manaphy is in the Uper crust of the Standard tier, but TTar is eating that crust on his sandwitches at lunch. I personaly sigh everytime I have to face a manaphy since you know what coming and you know its tough, but TTar is at least a mighty. People just dont want to move him since they love the positive effect he brings to them.
Yeah, sorry about going a little overboard. I've just been playing since R/B/Y, and I'm the type who likes freedom. I just can't function somewhere if there are too many rules and modifications. Yeah, I totally agree with ubering Kyogre, Rayquaza etc, because that would require everyone else to use the same things, in effect creating a uber tier anyway. But anything that doesn't totally overpower in my opinion deserves the right to be used in normal play.
I think Blissey is a bigger issue than Tyranitar.
While Tyranitar can easily be countered, Blissey is a pain.
And I also saw the argument of even if banning these Pokemon to uberzone, they wouldn't see play there. But that doesn't go for Blissey, Blissey sees plenty of play in ubers.
I would love to see Tyranitar leave OU and enter Ubers but if he does, other superpowers of the OU should be closely inspected.
Sorry if these points have all already been aroused.
While Tyranitar can easily be countered, Blissey is a pain.
And I also saw the argument of even if banning these Pokemon to uberzone, they wouldn't see play there. But that doesn't go for Blissey, Blissey sees plenty of play in ubers.
I would love to see Tyranitar leave OU and enter Ubers but if he does, other superpowers of the OU should be closely inspected.
Sorry if these points have all already been aroused.
Based on my (admittedly limited) experience, I usually haven't found Tyranitar to be nearly as much of a problem to me as other Pokemon, such as Jirachi, Manaphy, and Porygon-Z (of course, I'm not advocating that any of them be Uber). He seems easier to counter than other Pokemon, and even Boah can be beaten once you see a Special Attack.
Hippowdon's not the only counter; Steelix can be effective at stopping him as well.
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